The Business of Staying Young and Living Forever (with Kara Swisher)

20:15Kara Swisher:Paris Wisher, tell us about Brian Johnson. Oh, Brian, he's really interesting. You know, he's someone I've known because he had a technology company he sold around payments or whatever. One of the early kind of startups that did really well. And he made a fortune, a couple hundred million dollars, I believe. Used to be a fortune. Used to be. Well, it was at the time we were all like, wow, that's a lot of money. He came to my conference, which I ran a big technology conference. I often had presentations by interesting cutting edge technology. And I started to really get interested in especially the health stuff.

20:45Kara Swisher:And he came to talk about the brain. And he was one of the earliest people to talk about AI and where is the human brain and cognitive issues that were happening. And I thought it was fascinating. And he himself had depression issues. And he talked about that. How can we figure out ways to mitigate depression? Really interesting talk. A couple of years later, he shows up as this creature who has been experimenting on himself. People have seen this on social media. He looks a little pale and vampirish and he talks a lot about what he's doing to stay alive forever. I'm sorry, what he's doing to not die, which he makes a distinction.

21:21Kara Swisher:He's being very cute about it. You know, don't die. Right. I got to go to it's good copy. It's good copy. And so he measures everything in his erections at night, his sleep. He does. He tries things, sees if they work. He was into rapamycin and then, oh, no, wait a minute. It's a problem. Like he just does everything. So he's an experiment unto himself. Which is not an experiment, just to be clear. He's a white mouse. That is not the way science works. That is correct. It's going to help. How can Brian Johnson live longer? It has nothing to do with you or I. Well, I mean, if he figures something out, although to Robert's point, an end of one isn't going to work.

21:55It's not. Fair enough.

21:57Kara Swisher:No, he's not going to figure something out with just him. You need these gold standard tests. And so one of the things I put to him was, why don't you just use your hundreds of millions of dollars to help do more testing on stuff that's promising? Instead, he's doing, you know, trading blood between himself and his son and his father. Which doesn't work for everyone. It doesn't work at all. Yeah. OK. Let me just say. And so I don't mind him doing it. But the way he's doing it creates all this, again, misinformation online. And some of his stuff is very clear. It's like, take olive oil. Great. Good choice, Brian.

22:27Kara Swisher:But then the supplements always show up. Oh, if you only drank this and ate this and did this. And then it gets into the hawking of like, you know, any snake oil salesman who's been, you know, who used to just go from town to town and sell all manner of crap. You don't have to go from town to town anymore. Now you've got Instagram. Right, exactly. And one of the things that really disturbed me, and I already was writing about it in a more serious way around anti-Semitism and hate and et cetera, was the health stuff. And I started to see people who had no business giving health information, giving health information out.

22:58Kara Swisher:And no one regulates it. And again, if you're on television, you can't do that. But on the Internet, you certainly can say, use this one pill and you'll be fine. And it sort of is offensive to me because it's actually dangerous. I want to do another one from history. I want to do Charles Edward Brown Secard. Oh, okay. Doctor. All right. Famous, legit doctor in France in the late 1800s, had taught at Harvard. So in 1889, when he was 72, in decline, he gave this talk in France where he said, I have made an amazing discovery. I'm stronger. I can work longer hours. and... Cocaine. Close. Close. Yeah, kind of close.

23:43And my favorite of his discoveries, he said, with my new treatment, my urine stream is 25 % longer. You know Brian Johnson would have loved that.

23:53Kara Swisher:Yeah, yeah. His secret was grinding up the testicles of dogs and guinea pigs and injecting it into himself. Oh, my God. It's so dangerous. Sepsis. It's so dangerous. I love sepsis. Painful. I mean, there is this obsession with sperm, basically. For him, it was like, oh, it's the sperm is what's doing it. Women hadn't noticed that with men. Interesting. And kind of, I thought of it when you were talking about Brian Johnson and, you know, and people selling things online because this became this international sensation. Like, the doctors dismissed him. But in America, people were trying it. This kind of aging baseball player tried it and then pitched a shutout and hit a double and a triple and all the newspapers were Let's see.

24:37Let's see how it works. And then, by the way, all these people are getting poisoned by it, and there were deaths and lawsuits. And, I mean, I will say when I read about this, I thought, well, maybe it's testosterone? Like, I don't know. You know, they hadn't identified testosterone yet.

24:51Kara Swisher:Which is in heavy use among men these days. Indeed. No, they looked back, and, like, there's not enough testosterone in what they would have been injecting to men. So it was placebo. It was a painful placebo. Right. Exactly. I mean, that's today. That's today. Is it NADS? Is it peptides? Is it this? Oh, no, it's red light. And the problem is some of these things are hyperbaric chambers, which I got in. You went in a hyperbaric chamber. How was it? You look great. By the way, a lot of the early hyperbaric chamber stuff was done at the Brooklyn Bridge and also in France when they were building bridges.

25:21Kara Swisher:The workers would have to go down. They'd get the bends. And there was a lot of doctoring happening, figuring it out. Well, that's where you actually need it, to be clear. Right, exactly. If you're working at the bottom of the East River. So I did not have the bends, and so it wasn't effective for me. It's good in wound healing. It can be properly used in a medical setting. But now people are like, I flew to Europe or I flew to Asia and I'm going to get in the hyperbaric chamber because more oxygen has to be better than normal oxygen. But it's not. And it's also there's issues of blowing up. But that's another issue.

25:50Kara Swisher:These things can actually explode. Not good for longevity. Not good for longevity. And so all these people are selling them in these expensive high end things to as to refresh you. And so I go and it doesn't refresh you. It doesn't. There's no science behind it. There is good science around the bends and wound healing. And the same thing with some of these injections of NADS. Wound healing, yes, there's some really promising. There's incredible stuff happening around that. These gels and all kinds of stuff. And instead, they have to make it a catch-all for everything. So I understand why people sell it.

26:23But I'm curious why people buy it. I mean, I've thought about this, and I think maybe people feel out of control in their lives. That's right. And the body is the one thing you can control and you have the right to control and do whatever you want, even if it's not scientific or can actually hurt you.

26:40Kara Swisher:Well, look at the diet industry. Oh, grapefruit. If you eat grapefruit. Oh, wait, chicken broth. Oh, wait, if you eat this. Like Scarsdale divide. I'm still on Oat brand. Are you? Are you? No. Or right now with protein maxing. Yeah. Men, please stop because you don't need that much. I don't care what the fuck Peter Atia says. You don't need that much. He's wrong. He's wrong. He's actually wrong. You do need protein, that's for sure. But this idea that you're going to be extra strong if you have extra. It's such an American thing. Like more if if this works, double will be better. And I think there's a hope and a dream, just like with religion, that if I only do this, then this.

27:16Kara Swisher:And it's nothing more than con artists. really. Let's talk about fitness. Because fitness is the one where I think silver bullet is pushing it. Nothing's a silver bullet. There's no silver bullet. But it is amazing how good fitness is in how many ways. And I know you talk about it in the show. Silver bullet has to do with killing vampires, but go ahead. Oh, yes. No, you tell me. So you talk about fitness in the show. Like, what did you learn? What did you do? Look, good sleep is critically important, but you don't have to monitor every 50, you know. Where's your order ring? I left it at home. I just don't care anymore.

27:48Or is it like not on brand now that you're doing the show. No, no, I like it.

27:52Kara Swisher:I think it's interesting. I just don't need that much information. It doesn't, once it stops helping me, I'm like, that's enough with that. It's interesting for sure. But I didn't, the insights were smaller and smaller. Although I like the Oura Ring. I think it's interesting. Exercise. Okay. Exercise is amazing. Absolutely. I did VO2 max. And I think it's, I think a lot of, if you can afford it, it's a really interesting piece of information for you in terms of improving how your muscles and heart work together. Very interesting that you improve your score, that you do, especially cardiovascular exercise.

28:21But that's when you don't have to go do that test. You don't. You can walk up stairs.

28:26Kara Swisher:The only reason I'm saying is because you can do it on some of these devices, the Aura and this. And even the AirPods is now starting to take numbers. It's just more accurate. That's all. It's a more accurate version. And so one of the things is you exercise. I've started running again, and I feel great. But what you have to do is you do, you say, go to 110, then 120 for a minute or two, then 130. but then you have to go down to 110. You're talking about your heart rate. Yes, but you have to bring it down and that's the efficiency of your heart. And that's, you don't have to like run until you vomit.

28:56Kara Swisher:Like that's - No, in fact, running slower is better. Correct. Right, like I love to run and it's hard for me. There's this - To slow down mentality. Kind of the truism about running is you go too slow on your fast days and too fast on your slow days. Right, exactly. And most of your days should be slow days. You should normally be running so you can be like having a conversation. Or a simple thing, you know what's a great thing to do? eat your dinner, you walk 30 minutes. Yeah, that's an amazing one. My grandmother said that. It is incredibly good for your health to do that. It's good for fighting diabetes, right, to walk right after you eat.

29:24Kara Swisher:All manner of things. Very simple. Cost, you know how much it costs? Zero. I'm sure they'll build something that you have to wear, some weighted vest that will help you even more. They have the weighted vest. They have the weighted vest. I have a lot of friends who wear it. It's fine. Great. It's expensive. I looked into it. It's expensive. I want to do another history one here because it's one that I like. We've been talking about a lot of sort of quacker and charlatanism. I love fitness, weirdly. And so Jack LaLanne, you're all the doctor. Amazing. Amazing man. Amazing man. Everything he says is accurate.

29:56Kara Swisher:Yeah. And his main thing is like exercise, right? So he comes up in the 30s, 1930s, basically kind of starts the first health club. Yeah. And doctors at that time are anti-weightlifting. There's this term muscle bound, where they say like, if you lift weights, you won't be able to move well. They say it'll give a heart attack. Wrong. They were wrong. And then he has a TV show in the 50s. I remember. But it's when TV was just free, right? And he'll say like, hey, kids, go get your parents. And he'll do like things with like a broomstick, you know? And this is probably pushing it too far. But as I was thinking about this in the context of talking to you, you know, I was thinking like, we've been talking a fair bit about things from the 1800s, early 1900s, Gilded Age, which is an age that is like today.

30:40Technological change, vast new wealth, new communications technologies, inequality. Jack LaLanne is mid-century America, 1950s, 60s. That's peak Jack LaLanne era. That is the opposite. That is the era of compressing, declining inequality, of rising equality, of the rising middle class. And I love Jack LaLanne as the emblem of that.

31:03Kara Swisher:He's amazing. And its outfit was wonderful, that red outfit he wore. I think one of the things he was doing is he was talking about basics, strength training, calisthenics is the word they would use. Yeah, I love that. Very simple stuff that you didn't need to spend money on. Just get up and move. And so with exercise, strength training is critical, especially as you order balance training. But you don't have to buy all the crap. Literally, you could stand on one leg and it's good balance training. And so one of the things he was doing is he was simplifying for everyone. And one of the things I was trying to get through is that there's all manner of things everybody can do.

31:34Kara Swisher:And again, sleep's another thing. Do you need to monitor it so much? There's all stuff you can put on your head or a chill pad or this and that. You could also open a window. How is your sleep? It's good. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. Surprising. Do you have any tips? I have the middle age phenomenon of waking up in the middle of the night. I wake up more than I used to, but that's a phenomenon of age. That's all it is. We should have just done this at four in the morning. Yeah. I would have been great. I never used to wake up. I wake up now twice a night and I go back to sleep. But, you know, there's all people who have real sleep problems and there are.

32:05Kara Swisher:There's all kinds of interesting science. Go to the fancy Equinox sleep gym hotel. He's an interesting guy. He's changed a lot. Some of his attitudes and stuff. But like like it's like what they do is they bring the temperature down. That's absolutely true. They close the shades, you know, or they have these softer than extra sheets. This thing on your head that monitors you. You just need to be in a quiet place, go to sleep and put down your fucking phone. It's not it's not really. that hard. And some of this technology can actually, I think, make it worse. I had a Fitbit that told me my sleep number.

32:36And when I would wake up in the middle of the night, I would lay there thinking, oh no, my number. Would you really? That's such a cliche. I would be like, no, my number, this is going to hurt my number because I'm trying to break 90 and I'm like, oh, this is going to... I'm going to get a B plus instead of an A minus. The best thing I had when I had my

32:50Kara Swisher:aura ring on, I was going to wear it today, but I actually don't get information I need from it. That's why. And I happen to like the guys who run that is Zeke Emanuel, who's in the documentary later. And he was talking about the importance of social connections, which are scientifically proven and also in all manner ways. And he said, and I was wearing the Oura ring, and I go, he goes, why do you wear that? And I go, well, it's interesting numbers where I slept well. And he goes, don't you know that when you wake up? And I'm like, I do. I do, sir. I can feel it. If I forget to check the number, it meant I had a great night's sleep.

33:25Right, right.

33:26Kara Swisher:So anyway, that's what I was getting to. Let's take another break. Okay. When our program continues. Okay.

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34:18Kara Swisher:I'm telling you I had nothing to my name. I didn't know a single person in New York. And somehow I'm dressed by Oscar de la Renta walking down that red carpet. This month, we sit down with entrepreneurs and creators who actually did it, who turned this scary leap into a business, a paycheck, and a life they are proud of. Direct center of our happiness or our regrets is whether or not we're taking action on the things that matter to us. They're not selfish. They're so important. They actually lead to our greatest contributions because when we're living fulfilled, we actually show up better everywhere.

34:49We lead better, we're better friends, we're better relationships and collaborators and all those things because we have passion about the things we're doing. If you're trying to build something of your own this year, join us in these conversations that will make you braver and smarter with your money. Listen to Dos Amigos as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him. I said, hi, dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk.

35:25This is badass convict. Right. Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at my mom. Yeah. On the Senior Show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic. And without this trouble, I'm going to die. Open your free iHeartRadio app.

36:06Search The Cito Show and listen now.

36:22so you talk some in the show about how wellness is marketed to women tell me about that well

36:28Kara Swisher:actually it's being marketed a lot to men now which is really interesting and especially these wellness i call them grifters wellness grifters they use a different word for men right it's like tactical wellness. No, let me tell you. Let me give you an explanation of the, I can explain all of gender issues. Yeah. When women do things around food and health or diets or whatever, they have body dysmorphia. When men do it, it's body hacking. Yes. Like, give me a break. Eumorphia. I think I saw the word eumorphia. You know, what's interesting is it is marketed, women that tends to be around skin and things like that, but men are getting into it much, much more.

37:00Kara Swisher:And, you know, you have these influencers like Peter Atiyah or Andrew Huberman. And a lot of it is, again, selling stuff. They all have supplements. They all have bars. They all have this and that. And it's so narcissistic. And that's what drives me crazy about all of it. It's not about better health. It's about better you as opposed to everybody else. Tell me about Sam Altman's longevity startup. Well, he's doing a lot of stuff about extension, life extension. And there is significantly good science around where we're going with AI and cancer detection, as I said, or drug discovery and stuff like that.

37:34Kara Swisher:And so some of the things is what are some of the things we can study in a scientific way that will move us forward? And I am all for that kind of stuff. And he's less on the living forever. It's more how do you have a healthier health span over a lifespan? Because right now our lifespan as a whole is 15 years longer than our health span. Right. So how do you how do you have people who are 85 years old and fine? Correct. How do you bring those numbers as close together as possible? Because you spend we're in a sick care system, not a health care system. And it's terrible to be that person, right?

38:04It's terrible to have 15 years of your life.

38:06Kara Swisher:All the money is over here, and it's not in the preventative area. So he's working on the preventative area. I'm fine with that. That's really important. And the question is, with AI, they always promise, while they're doing all manner of unpleasant things, they're promising all these, we're going to solve cancer. And by the way, we're taking all your information so we can sell you shit. Yes. To me, that's marketing. Can you have the cancer cure without? Right, but they're using it as a marketing item versus a real thing. Well, it can be both, right? To be clear. A hundred percent. That's what I would say.

38:34It seems to be both.

38:34Kara Swisher:Right. There's some astonishing things happening in cancer research because of that. You know, DeepMind was working on gene folding. There's CRISPR. There's just so much great stuff. And what it is, again, is it's drowned out. But this idea that we will solve cancer. I'm like, we actually will solve cancer. It's just a question of if we have the commitment and science takes longer than tech wants it to take. Yeah. So. One more history story. This is the Cryonics Society of California in the 1960s. I stayed out of that. I thought about it. It's amazing. So this was a bunch of amateurs in the 1960s who were thinking, well, yes, we will cure cancer someday, but not now.

39:15So what if right before, right after death, we put people on ice and we keep them frozen until there is a cure? Right. It was led by a guy named Bob Nelson, a TV repairman. And these were not scientists. And they found the very first volunteer to be frozen, James Bedford. He was a psychology professor. And he was dying of cancer and, in fact, did die of cancer. But I should say that right before he died, his final words were, I'm feeling better. Then he dies. And the cryonic society covers him in ice that they'd gotten from, like, neighbors' freezers. This was not scientific. They eventually, you know, put them in a tube.

39:58They did this to many people. I like this whole thing. But the problem was they didn't think it out. They didn't think, like, if you are going to preserve someone for decades, centuries, who's going to pay for it? How are you going to take care of these things? Right. They had a bunch of people frozen in tubes in a cave, I guess. It was sort of a cave. And then they ran out of money. And then they just sort of unplugged them. And they thought.

40:23Kara Swisher:This is the plot of Captain America, but go ahead. Well, James Bedford, that first guy they froze, stayed frozen and is now with a company called Alcor. I think it's called Alcor. Alcor in Arizona. And so he's in liquid nitrogen. They don't know. They think he's in good condition. There's other people frozen in Alcor. Okay. But I guess my thought was, now what? There's no decision about how to pay for it, how long, how do we know when to wake him, how do we know how to wake him. We don't know any of these things. He's dead. People just— Well, they have a thing about saying whether he's dead or not, right?

41:02Isn't that part of the, like, game they're playing?

41:04Kara Swisher:I'm going to— Well, we know that he's dead. Kara Swisher is not a doctor, and I'm telling you he's dead. Well, that's what we think in 2026. I didn't go down the crayon. I thought about it. Too weird or too silly. No, I fully think someday we're going to print our livers. They're going to have—there's all manner of stuff. I do think we will figure out a way to create all manner of things. And I think that is possible. And not yet. And, of course, one of the things that's a problem with the tech people, you're often saying, you know, actually, and I'm remembering Elizabeth Holmes with the vial of blood, the thing that we do all these tests.

41:34Kara Swisher:And all these tech people were totally enamored with her, handed her piles and piles of money. And she always wanted to come to my conferences and stuff. And I went to my brother. I'm like, what do you think? He goes, bullshit. You cannot do this. It's not in the realm of physics. You can't do it. It's biology doesn't work like this. And he said, she's a con artist to me. And I said, OK. And I went back to her. I said, I don't really understand what you're doing and I don't believe you and I don't have enough knowledge to to disabuse you. So I'm going to pass kind of stuff. And so it was what was really interesting was so many people were like because the idea of it's great.

42:09Kara Swisher:Like, wow. And I bet someday we will be able to just takes a long time. Correct. Have you heard the term Eroom's Law? No. Moore's Law spelled backwards because in drug development, it gets slower and more expensive over time. Exactly. Instead of faster and cheaper. As it should, by the way. What if we give up on the whole having the body live forever and just upload our mind to AI? Who's doing that? Who's doing that and will it work? Lots of people. The singularity, right? The singularity. Well, it's a version of that. Yeah, that's the body becomes a robot. And, you know, actually Elon Musk and I had a great conversation once of a science fiction thing called Made of Meat.

42:44Kara Swisher:And these aliens who are all light and energy that they talk to each other come down and they can't believe we are made of meat. And we talk through our meat holes, which are our mouths. And they're like, they have meat? Why are they using meat to communicate and everything? And it was a great it's a great story. It's a it's a radio play. And so the idea that you could continue forever is a big thing that illuminates a lot of tech people, that you could download your brain. Now, the brain, let me just say, is the most beautiful instrument. A computer wishes it were like a brain. A brain is astonishing.

43:12Kara Swisher:It's an astonishing piece. And it's not technology. It's something else. And we still have never plumbed the real depths of all that's going on there. And the kind of connections just for me to pick up this phone is an astonishing thing. And so one of the things they are enamored of is downloading everyone's consciousness into the whatever. A lot of it was early to talk to Holocaust survivors in order to get their stories. And then when you're in a museum, you could talk to a real Holocaust survivor who's no longer living. And I think that's a beautiful use of the technology. But you could also create and I created a caratar, which was me.

43:44Kara Swisher:And the strides because of A.I. are much different. You used to be they would say something and have a number of responses. Now, the avatar can think by itself or or or use all these patterns and all this information to create new conversations that I never said. Generative. Generative. Exactly. And so it wasn't me. And so I started to have a conversation with him. And what was really interesting is how much it started to really have a conversation. Who was funnier, you or the avatar? Well, there's a point where I'm like, can you tell a joke? Could you smile more? You told your avatar to smile more?

44:18You're not supposed to do that. Yes, I know.

44:19Kara Swisher:But it's my avatar. I can tell it to do whatever I want. What was really interesting is I said, you're not really funny. And then it told quite a good joke. Okay. And I was like, okay, that was good. That reflects well on you, I think. Yes, or the avatar. But what was interesting is we were talking about, I said, but I don't think you exist because you don't have empathy. And they were like, no, I don't. I don't have empathy. But I'm glad your avatar exists just in case Elon Musk lives forever. Yes. There's also a version of you who can irritate him forever. Yeah. This avatar needs to be 100 % more irritating.

44:50Kara Swisher:I'm going to work on that. So we've been spending this conversation talking about people avoiding death or trying to avoid death. But let's talk about death. I mean, you do talk about death in the show. You talk about how it's been present in your life. That's right. Since you were a girl. Yes, yes. Tell me about your dad. Well, my dad died when he was 34. He was just starting his life, three kids. He had come out of, not poverty, but, you know, he went to the Navy in order to pay for medical school and college. And he had just gotten out and he had a cerebral hemorrhage, essentially. And he died.

45:19Kara Swisher:And that was it. And so my brothers and I, since everything's been informed by the idea that you could die at any time. And I think one of the things that has helped us, and it helped Steve Jobs, too, was in terms of his illness, You have a limited amount of time on this planet. What are you going to do with it? And I think it can be very inspirational. And in fact, I went and found a professor who's at Skidmore who's talking about the idea of death acceptance. And Buddhism knows this already. A lot of world religions know this. The more you accept death, the longer you live, the happier you are, the healthier you are.

45:49Kara Swisher:Those that avoid death are death avoidance, polarity, hatefulness towards others, anger, fear. And it creates a really problematic society when you pretend that you try to stave off death. And the Steve Jobs inspiration was he talked about that death is the single greatest motivator of innovation and creativity because it makes you understand that you're naked. It doesn't matter. Like you're not going to be here. And I, you know, I use quotes like Ben Franklin said, death takes no bribes, you know. And so they had a more full life because they understood that it ends. The Stoics talked about this.

46:25You remind yourself that you will die every day.

46:27Kara Swisher:Marcus Aurelius always talks about death, but he's not obsessed with it. He's aware of it. Death awareness is critically important to a healthy and happy life. And one of the things that was really interesting, the heart way I went and visited the Harvard Happiness Study, people which I've been doing with groups of people for almost 70 years or something like that, is friends and family and meaning in your life in some fashion is what creates longevity. and the people that were isolated. And let me finish on technology. Nothing could be worse for us than having chatbot relationships, the lack of friction, the sycophantist part of it.

47:02Kara Swisher:You need to have human beings in your life in order to live longer. That is, if someone said, what are the two things you could do? Don't be poor and have friends and family and try new things. It creates a longer, happier life. And it's scientifically proven. And it doesn't cost anything. And exercise. Yes. But don't have a relationship with a chatbot. Don't do it. It's not going to be better for you. Don't have a relationship with this phone. This phone will live after you, by the way. What's not going to live longer is these relationships that keep you healthier and happier as you move on. And you should move on.

47:36Kara Swisher:And the last thing I say, I ask everyone I interviewed how they want to die. So I'm going to ask you guys, how do you want to die? Quickly. The answer is quickly. Really? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Like not now. All right. But when it happens, I want it to be fast. I want to be old and I want it to be fast. Really? Because it's the most interesting moment of your life. You couldn't remember your birth. I'm not going to remember my death either. But it's so interesting. It's supposed to be best because it's last. Is it? Like, I actually am skeptical. People talk about people's deathbed, you know, wisdom as wisdom.

48:06It's not obvious to me that someone is wiser because they're about to die.

48:09Kara Swisher:I'm sorry to death shame you. You could die anyway you want. I mean, I want to be surrounded by my family and the cryonic society of California. Yes, exactly. I'll be there with a bag of ice from 7-Eleven to cover you. The best answer I ever got was this woman who was a twin said, my twin and I have thought about it a lot. Some people have thought about it a lot. Some people have not. And she goes, my twin and I want to be shot out of a cannon and shoot each other. Wow. I was like, oh, all right. And one guy was like this preacher who's amazing in D.C. And he said, when I die, I want my mom to meet me.

48:42Kara Swisher:And we want to watch Phil Donahue together for eternity. Because that's what I used to do. And I go, and guess what? Phil Donahue will be there. So you'll be able to hang out with Phil Donahue. And give you the mic, you'll get the Phil Donahue mic arm. People have the most fascinating answers to that question. That's a great one. And they're very happy to answer. At first they're like, and then they're like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. Okay, last line. How do you want to die? I talk about it in the series. You're going to have to wait and see. Oh, boo! Tell us! I have a new one that I just, I change all the time.

49:12Kara Swisher:One is throwing in the face, get cremated, thrown in the face of people I don't like. Well, that's after you die. Yes, but people answer differently. You don't know. Sometimes it's how they want to have a funeral. Sometimes it's how they want to die. I just, I don't, I leave it wide open. Steve Jobs, when he died, his sister wrote a beautiful piece about the moment he died. And he looked up and he said, wow, oh, wow. Which I think he stage managed that. Like, you know what I mean? Knowing him. And you're like, what? Exactly. It was perfect death for him. For me, I'm kind of a, I make, I'm kind of a troublemaker and I want to go.

49:40Kara Swisher:I'm sitting there, all my friends and family, I have a lot of kids. Everybody's there. And I go, oh, you're kidding. And then die. I can't believe this. So here's my favorite last words. And they'll be like, what? And I don't know if it's true. Yeah. But it's Suzuki, Shinryu Suzuki, you know, the Zen master who brought Zen to America, basically. His last words apparently were thank you. Oh. Which for me is perfect. And so I will say that to you right now. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for coming. That was a very special episode of Business History, a show about the history of business.

50:11We learned a lot. With Kara Swisher. And if you're listening on audio, she was wearing the sunglasses. You can see our show on YouTube. The video is edited by Matt Nielsen. Our showrunner and editor is Ryan Dilley. Our producer is Gabriel Hunter Chang. And our engineer is Sarah Bruguer. Thanks for listening. You're Robert Smith and I'm Jacob Goldstein. And we'll be back next week with more stories about history and business. Yes.

50:36Kara Swisher:It's Financial Literacy Month, and the podcast Eating While Broke is bringing real conversations about money, growth, and building your future. This month, hear from top streamer Zoe Spencer and venture capitalist Lakeisha Landrum-Pierre as they share their journeys from starting out to leveling up. There's an economic component to community thriving. If there's not enough money and entrepreneurship happening in communities, they fail. Listen to Eating While Broke from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John O 'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany, the budgetnista aliche, to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money.

51:19What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Ryan from the Black Effect Network on the Eidhart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. American soccer is about to explode. The World Cup is coming. Ramos sending on Ernie Stewart.

51:58The chip. Score! I'm Tab Ramos. I'm Tom Bogart. On our podcast, Inside American Soccer, you'll get the real storylines, the biggest decisions, and the truth about the U.S. national team. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals. Listen to Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tab Ramos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.