122: Selling Smarter in a Tough Drinks Market With Ben Salisbury + BCB Recap

0:04Ben Salisbury: Welcome back to Business of Drinks. I'm Erica Ducey. And I'm Scott Rosenbaum. Before we get into today's episode, we want to share a quick recap about Bar Convent Brooklyn 2026, which just took place in early June. Scott, what were your impressions of the show? Well, there was great energy, you know, for all the challenges the drinks industry has faced and continues to encounter. You wouldn't know it by the happy faces on all the attendees. I was speaking with a spirit producer and they said that this was one of their favorite conferences for many reasons, but particularly because it meant that neither they nor other attendees felt compelled to wear suits and dress up, right?

0:45Being a bartender focused show, it was and is encouraging to see that there's sustained enthusiasm and energy on the front lines of the business, right? And the show was packed, which I was really happy to see.

0:57Ben Salisbury: Yeah, it was really packed. You know, last year, I believe that they had more than 5 ,300 trade members attend. And this year, they were expecting to exceed that. And it definitely felt like they did. So another highlight that I think both of us can celebrate is that we held our second annual Business of Drinks pre-show coffee meetup, which was super well attended and such a great way to connect with guests and listeners. Yes. Many thanks to those who got there a little early and joined us pre-conference. We were joined by folks from all walks of the industry, tequila suppliers, non-out brands, media friends, B2B service providers, and more.

1:38So that kicked off the conference. Erica, were there any trends that jumped out at you?

1:44Ben Salisbury: Yeah, one thing that really stood out to me on the floor was the ubiquity of Yuzu as a flavoring. So it was everywhere. Yuzu RTDs, Yuzu mixers, Yuzu cocktails. I have to say that it showed up, it felt like at least nearly half of the brand activations that I visited. And I also noticed one of the first mixer lines that I've seen that actually is marketing itself as a mixer with electrolytes from a mass. And that feels very aligned with where wellness cues are moving in beverage. So not necessarily full on functional beverage, but a subtle nod to hydration, balance and recovery. And yes, a legal way to tip to those health cues.

2:33Ben Salisbury: and they state it right at the top of their website. The functional cocktail revolution is here. I do think some of that may be coming and starting to play out. What stood out to you, Scott? Yeah, a number of things. First, I was really encouraged to see what I'll call like non-AWC integration, right? In the past, I felt like some non-AWC brands had smaller tables or maybe sidelined or had a separate area. And now you saw a brand like Pathfinder, you know, right next to Gallo, essentially, and in terms of their presence. So it was really interesting. Even within booths, you would see brands that had their Alk and non-Alk versions and were pouring them side by side.

3:15Maybe that accounted for a little bit more of people being awake and having a little pep in their step in the afternoon is the ability to literally moderate at the conference. It was interesting to see a bulk whiskey supplier on the floor, which is not something I recall seeing before, but makes sense giving some of of the availability of whiskey at cheaper prices than previously. One thing that I found fascinating was the number of attendees, number of tables that were pushing what I'll call like accents. These are bitters, syrups, ice. There were three, if not four ice spenders. And that just points to the importance of the show for bartenders and the on-premise, but also the belief that these are things needed to give consumers what they want.

4:02which is more of an experience. I'm curious, any big surprises for you?

4:07Ben Salisbury: You know, probably my biggest surprise of the show was Yoshi, which is a matcha liqueur. So this is really a very well-balanced, frankly, delicious oat-based cream liqueur. And it immediately made me think, okay, matcha martinis are coming next. So matcha, as we all know, is huge in coffee shops right now, at least in the New York area. and all the boba tea places. So why not the bar? And I think, you know, trying their matcha martini, I was convinced that this could definitely be the next espresso martini. Scott, what about you? What was your biggest surprise? Well, like you, I was mightily impressed by Yoshi Matcha Liqueur.

4:50I personally, I really enjoyed Method Spirits, Perline American Bitter. This is kind of a niche spirit, something that would be used in something like a white Negroni as the bitter component. it, but it was stunning, delicious. I was surprised to see more gin and vodka producers than I would have anticipated, right? This is not a show where you typically see them turn out in numbers, but it felt like there was a distinct uptick compared with years past. I was also surprised to see what I consider to be minimal representation by RTD brands, particularly given the category's growth and dominance over the past few years.

5:24There just weren't as many vendors as I would have expected in that category.

5:29Ben Salisbury: You know, and I heard a lot of chatter about rum. So I think rum really has a lot of energy around it right now. And Esther Rum did a very fun guerrilla style paella lunch pop up, which was delicious, unexpected, and a very smart way to create buzz outside of a booth. And you know, I love rum. We keep on hearing that it's going to be the year of rum, but it never quite pans out this way. So fingers crossed. Yeah. So, you know, that's what we saw on the convention floor. But there were also seminars and panels, as there always are. All the usual topics were covered. I'd say, you know, tech conversations leaned and were focused on AI, as one might expect.

6:11One interesting thing that I noticed was the shift in attendance in certain seminars. So the seminars on winning retail, the seminars on appealing to distributors, they were packed, standing room only. And fascinating to me, the seminar on M &A and getting your brand to exit, they had a few open seats. And that was not the case last year.

6:32Ben Salisbury: Yeah. And then I was lucky to speak on a panel about generational trends and opportunities. And my presentation was focused on millennial drinkers. So for you, what was the big takeaway there? Yeah. You know, the simplest way that I would frame the millennial takeaway is this. You know, millennials are not emerging drinkers anymore. They're core adult beverage buyers with scale spending power and real influence over the category. I mean, there's 74 million millennials in the U.S. right now, but they're also applying much more scrutiny to what they drink. They're moderating, but that doesn't mean that they're abandoning alcohol.

7:11Ben Salisbury: And they're drinking across the full spectrum of full ALK, low ALK, no ALK, RTD, THC, and functional, sometimes in the same week, sometimes in the same day. And that means that every drink has to earn the occasion, whether that's a better cocktail, a premium RTD, you know, a low ABV option, a THC beverage, or something non-ALK that still feels social. So for brands, really, the opportunity is to make the product more useful. So making clear occasion fit, making sure there's no friction on the way to purchase, that there's more flexibility and a stronger reason to choose a given product in the moment.

7:52I feel seen because I am part of this cohort. I am a millennial and I don't need to chase youth culture, right? It is understanding that I want to get a full night's sleep. I have different need states like everyone else at this stage in my life. So thank you. Thank you for speaking to my generation.

8:11Ben Salisbury: Absolutely. You know, it just reinforcing that the occasion really has to make sense for this audience and for you. The value has to be very clear and the product has to be easy to understand, find and also buy. So I talked through that in terms of like the five F's, which is fit, function, friction, flexibility and familiarity. Yeah. And those things really connect to a lot of what we've been discussing on the show in general, but certainly recently. And this is around things like moderation, occasion design, and brands needing to reduce friction at every step. Yeah. So, you know, the opportunity is really for addressing those need states across every touchpoint from retail to social to the actual drinking occasion.

8:59Ben Salisbury: So those were, you know, a few of our takeaways from BCB, but we can't go on forever here. You know, I think in a nice way, this connects us to what we're going to be talking about today, because the conversation that we're having today is about how brands need to adapt to the market that we're actually in now, not the market that existed a decade ago. That's right. Today we are talking with Ben Salisbury, the founder and president of Salisbury Creative Group. Ben has spent decades in wine and spirit sales, and he has become one of the industry's most outspoken advocates and critics, right? He's sometimes encouraging, sometimes provocative, a really important voice on what actually works when it comes to selling wine and spirits.

9:45Ben Salisbury: Yeah, and what I found really interesting in this conversation is that Ben believes that the way many companies are selling their products is outdated. Exactly. He makes a strong case that the old kind of adage, the old approach that more is more, more accounts, more markets, more points of distribution, that doesn't work the way it used to. His argument is that brands need a narrower, deeper focus if they want to grow in this current market. And that connects to one of the biggest themes that we keep discussing on this show, which is the role of the distributor has changed. Yes, Ben is very clear that this isn't about blaming distributors.

10:23They are partners, right? You need to be realistic, though, about how you work with them if you are a supplier. Distributors can be critical logistic partners, but the work of building demand has kind of shifted back to the supplier.

10:36Ben Salisbury: The other piece that I like about this conversation is that Ben gets super practical and has a very educational, helpful way of describing these topics. So, you know, he talks about understanding how accounts actually make money, how to use CRMs properly, and even how to use AI to better understand buyers and sharpen your pitch. Yeah. So if you are a founder, a sales leader, or anyone trying to grow in this tough beverage market, this episode is a sharp reset on how to sell with more discipline, more empathy, and more effectiveness. Here's our conversation with Ben Salisbury. And now a word from our sponsor.

11:21Ben Salisbury: And today that sponsor is Business of Drinks. If you're building a drinks brand right now, you already know how hard it is to tell what actually matters versus what's just noise. We see this all the time. Brands have to move fast, but they're often making these rush decisions without enough structure, data or outside perspective. That's why we built Business of Drinks Advisory Services, to help founders and leadership teams make smarter calls around growth, distribution, brand positioning, and fundraising. This is focused, tailored, hands-on advice from the people who've actually built brands, worked with distributors, and helped the best up-and-coming drinks companies scale.

12:01Ben Salisbury: If you want to learn more, reach out. We're at info at businessofdrinks.com. And now, back to the show. Ben, welcome to Business of Drinks. We're so happy to have you on the show. I'm very excited to be here because I'm a huge fan of your podcast. Thank you. Very kind of you to say. Well, you know, let's start with who you are. Can you share a bit about yourself with our listeners? Yes. So Ben Salisbury, I'm the president and founder of the Salisbury Creator Group. I also have another brand called Wine Sale Stimulator. That's my group membership program. It's kind of my future too. Like I want to be able to work well into retirement age and I would rather do that in a group setting.

12:43So I'm building a community now, so I won't have to do quite as much one-on-one consulting later. But in the meantime, I have those two brands. I've been at it for almost 12 years. Next couple of weeks, I will hit the 12 year anniversary of being out on my own as a sales strategy consultant. I've been selling wine and spirits since 1984 when I I went to work for a Wine and Spirits wholesaler in Houston, Texas. So I've been doing this a long time. I know that you're a fan and a follower, and I have a lot of fans and followers. But for those who don't know me, I'd like to poke my finger in the eye of tradition and the way things are done.

13:18I'd like to be a provocateur. I'd love to challenge the conventional wisdom. I'm not afraid to say things what other people might only think to themselves. So that's kind of who I am in a nutshell and how I operate. I love this business and I'm out on a mission to help as many people as I can have success, especially when it comes to sales and marketing. Yeah, no, your conviction, passion, and sometimes contrarianism comes across certainly when I encounter you on LinkedIn or online. I'm curious the idea of knowing the rules so you can break them. You know, you grew up in this industry, as I understand, right, with some real titans.

13:59You were with Chateau St. Michelle, Constellation Brands. Can you share maybe how that background prior to going on your own informed what you believe works in beverage sales and what doesn't? Yeah, I really love this. And there's a lot here in many years, so I'll try to keep it fairly condensed. But I started out working in restaurants as a teenager. I grew up in southern Rhode Island in a little fishing village called Wickford, for those of you who know. And it worked my way up like most people do in the restaurant business from a dishwasher to a prep cook to, you know, working in the kitchen.

14:36And when it came time to go to college, I went to culinary school at Johnson & Wales in Providence. And I stayed on to get my degree, my bachelor's in food service management. So my first career was in the restaurant business. And my restaurant career kind of culminated when I moved to Houston with a couple of college friends to run a restaurant there with one of them had a wealthy dad who wanted to open a restaurant. Anyway, so in that role, I began interacting with Wine and Spirit sales reps. So this would have been 83. And that was really formative for me, like having salespeople sell to me.

15:07And I was in charge of the wine program and the cocktail program and all of that. So that was the beginning of my idea about what it meant to be a really good, valuable salesperson in this industry. So I mentioned that background because it has informed so much of my journey along the way. So I was in the package store and restaurant division of this distributor. It was a very different day back then. So I started in 1984. We were just seven years away from the judgment of Paris tasting. I mean, if you were serious about wine in those days, it was all about France. I'm really thankful for the experiences I've had, Scott, from going back from all the things I've seen in the last 42 years.

15:48But a couple of pivotal things worth mentioning here that do inform my opinion and kind of explain the lens to which I see things. I've always been an on-premise guy because I came from the restaurant business. It's always more wine than spirits focused, although I've sold plenty of spirits in my day. But where things really made a turn was when I started specializing in calling on chains, restaurant chains, national restaurant chains and hotel chains. The kind of seller that you need to be to succeed in that world is a whole other level than what you would see. You know, there's more transactional day-to-day stuff.

16:21the multiple decision makers of very long lead times. I had to really learn a whole new set of skills. So I say that because I see the world of sales as a protracted customer journey, not a single transaction that you do in the moment, you know, where you get the appointment, you make the presentation and you overcome objections and close. I don't see the world of selling that way at all because for 21 years of my career, I've sold to major accounts, but there's a lot to learn from that. And yes, I've worked for three wine brands, Fetzer Vineyards in pre-Brown Forman days. I spent 12 years with St.

16:57Michelle Wine Estates and five with Constellation Brands. But I've also done two tours of duty with distributors, Accent Wine and Spirits, where I started in the 80s. In the early 90s, I spent four and a half years working in the corporate office of Glaciers pre-Southern days as their first on-premise chain guy. And so I'm really blessed that I've had all these great experiences. Another thing worth mentioning is St. Michelle and Constellation are both publicly traded companies. So for 17 years, I was under the gun. I mean, it's a different environment there. The pressure to make your sales goal is relentless and it's quite serious.

17:33The business acumen required to work for publicly traded companies is very different than most of what you're exposed to in our industry. So all those things kind of really informed how I see the world of sales. I'm curious, you know, you talk about the life of a sales relationship rather than just the transaction. And some of what I've read, you are, I'd say a critic, and please let me know if I'm wrong and, you know, calling you such, but a critic of the traditional sales blitz. Like, let's go in and while the supplier's in town, we're going to hit up as many accounts with as many reps in the next three days.

18:09And I'm curious about, yeah, where that attitude, where that philosophy comes from and what you might recommend instead of that. Yeah. Well, I just love this line of discussion. I will try to condense it to get straight to the point. But when I think about sales, I apply two tests to everything, right? is the customer being put first? That's the first test. And the other is, are we respecting the customer journey? And I think those pieces are missing a lot in our industry. We're so focused on the product. We're so focused on making the sale. We tend to be a little on the aggressive side. We tend to do most of the talking.

18:49It's all about the features and benefits of product. And I reject all of that. I think that the sale should be a byproduct of a much larger relationship, a business relationship. I want to know what value are you, the salesperson, bringing to the business relationship? On the way to work this morning, I was listening to your podcast episode with Eric, and he just nailed all of this. He was absolutely right. I'm in the car going, yes, yes. Why don't more people speak like that? He said, it's really not about the product. It's about what your product is going to do for my restaurant or my retail operation.

19:21I don't know why Scott, so many people in our industry don't see the world of sales this way. They're way too oriented on the product. They don't respect the customer journey. So I think that's the big bifurcation. That's the big separation of how I see the world versus others. And I'm not alone. And it makes me really happy to hear people like Eric affirm it and confirm it because we're not alone. And there's a growing band of, I have some pretty zealous followers who say to me things like, I wish my boss would listen to you. I wish my boss would stop making me do this and that and call on more accounts.

19:58And we're measuring the wrong things. We have the wrong approach. We don't put the customer first, too much focus on the product. This is part of what's wrong. So what I try to do on a daily basis, just about, is preach the good word, preach the gospel. This is a better way to sell, a more elevated way to sell. And here's the thing, it's much more effective. So I get wound up about this. Part of one of what I, my philosophy of, you know, publicly talking about these things is I subscribe to this theory that if you light yourself on fire, people will come from miles around to watch you burn. I think you've got to take a position, right?

20:33And you got to be vocal about it. So I'm on a mission to convert as many people I can from being a transactional salesperson to a customer first, bringing real business value kind of a salesperson with great results along the way. For those who are new to the podcast, just what Ben is referencing is a recent episode with Eric Siegelbaum. That's episode 113. Give that a listen if you're curious. It's interesting, Ben, that you should mention, right, this move from transactional to a lengthier relationship. But you do say, you do note that people are measuring the wrong things, which to me implies they should be measuring something.

21:07So if they're not, say, just measuring account visits or revenue or cases sold or points of distribution. Where do you think salespeople and or distributors or suppliers, what should they be measuring? What should they be looking at? Yeah, this is such an important conversation. And I'm happy to have it because I know many people will hear it. And I hope some of the people who hear it will take it to heart and begin to make changes. A lot of what salespeople are doing today is driven by their bosses, is driven by the leaders. And I always blame the leaders for measuring the wrong things and directing the people wrong.

21:40Rarely do I put that blame on the shoulders of a salesperson. But let's talk about some of the traditional metrics. And these are leftovers from a time that no longer exists, a world that no longer exists. So we need to be in more accounts. We need more points of distribution. We need to be in more markets, more states. This more is more approach, Scott, is what doesn't work anymore. When there weren't so many brands and there were a lot more distributors and you really could part. partner and move the needle on things that playbook worked great but today there's just way too many brands the average distributor small medium or large is way overwhelmed with what's in their portfolio so the more is more approach really doesn't work a less is more approach is required a narrow but deep focus is the key to prosperity the key to accelerating and that is really hard for most people to accept.

22:31Making the switch from a more is more mentality to a less is more is really, really hard. It's counterintuitive. Most people reject it outright, but you can't hide the truth that it's absolutely the key. Not to plug my new book too much, but this is why I wrote Up the Down Staircase, how wine and spirits brands are growing in a down market. These are the adjustments they've made. And I spelled it out in seven key principles. It's super straightforward. it's an easy read. But I really think the world needs to hear this message, Scott, that times have changed. The environment for selling doesn't look anything like it did 10 years ago.

23:07So if you're still running plays out of that old playbook, you're going to fall behind really fast. Along those lines, what, if anything, has stayed the same? What is timeless when it comes to sales? And what has changed? What are veteran sales reps doing now that they did before that they maybe shouldn't be doing anymore. Yeah. And there's a few big ones, right? The big, big, big shift is the ability of distributors to sell for you, for you. Now I grew up in an era when that was a real thing and distributors really had a major impact on whether a brand succeeded or failed. I've lived through that, but I think what's happening today, distributors are very, very overwhelmed.

23:45And here's the thing. They're not going to come out and tell you that no distributor is going to say to a brand owner, well, we're very overwhelmed. We have too many brands. I don't think we're going to be able to do a good job for you because we've just got too much. They're not going to say that. It's coming on the brand owner to figure that out. That's the big, big thing that's changed. The distributor's ability to sell for you has been diminished. It's not that they don't care or don't want to. They just can't. No amount of training, education, working with is going to change the fact that they're overwhelmed.

24:14So if you want to stop and you don't want to make a shift, that's the first thing. Recognize the modern reality of what distributors can and can't do for you. And then the other big shift, I think, is how you approach customers. Back before the internet, right? Back when there wasn't information available and right before AI, right? It was salespeople had a different role. They were there to bring the buyer information about the category, about their particular products. Buyers relied on salespeople as a source of insight. That's not the case anymore. Any buyer in the world is just a few clicks away from whatever it is they want to know.

24:48In Daniel Pink's book, To Sell Us Human, he calls this out. He says, you know, in the modern age, salespeople are almost superfluous. And salespeople have to adjust themselves to the new reality, which is customers don't need you to tell them about their products. What they want are insights to what's happening in the world. How can we get an edge? How can you help us with cash flow? How can you help us with foot traffic? How can you help us grow sales? So these new ways of looking at the world, new things to measure, new ways to show up in front of accounts. That's what I think is in so need of an upgrade.

25:21To that end, I'm curious. Traditionally, as you put it right, both suppliers and distributors would put so much training emphasis on product, on education about wine regions or grape varieties. And I know both distributors and suppliers who, when it came to actual sales training, psychology, methodology, you know, you might get a few hours if that. Is there a healthy mix? Is there some ideal amount of time, some minimum amount of time that you think salespeople should train, should study, should learn about sales before diving in or even concerning themselves with the actual product? Well, product knowledge is compulsory.

26:01I mean, you must know the products, not just for your own products, but the category products. But that just gets you to the starting line. It's not a differentiator. And I think that's the big thing to take note of here, Scott, is having a good product at a great price and a great package and a knowledgeable sales team, that's not differentiating. That just gets you to the starting line. What are you going to do from there? So I think that really the way salespeople should be trained in the modern era is, yes, you have to be well-versed in the products and be able to speak about them intelligent.

26:30No question. You can't get by without that. But it needs to be balanced. It needs to be balanced with an understanding of what motivates retailers to buy. I look at it this way. Like when I was selling to restaurants very successfully, selling wine as per se, I didn't think of myself as a wine sales rep who happened to call on restaurants. I thought of myself as a restaurant operations expert who happened to sell wine. And that's my wish for salespeople everywhere. You need to devote yourself to understanding how do retailers make money? How do independent package store make money? How do grocery stores make money?

27:03What's their margin? What's their cash flow? What's their cash tied up in inventory? How do they view the world of assortment? How do they manage the category? You must become a category management expert if you want to be successful in off-premise. And an on-premise, and it's a completely different animal. On-premise, you need to understand restaurant operations. Here's an example. Practical stuff your listeners can take home and use Monday morning. There's three things every restaurant wants everywhere in the country. They want to grow their revenue. They want to control their costs, not necessarily lower their costs, although that's a beautiful thing, but control it because they're printing their menu with price.

27:37They have no tolerance for price rise. And then the third thing is to improve guest satisfaction. So you have to ask yourself, how are your wines or spirits going to help me get one of those three goals, grow revenue, control costs, or improve guest satisfaction? That's the gain. So your training needs to reflect that. Your training has to be balanced between product knowledge and how to serve your customer. What I'm hearing is, in lieu of maybe a formal education, what might be useful is for anyone to go into sales to work in the type of accounts that they might eventually be selling so that they can empathize with the realities.

28:12It certainly would be good. But even if you can't, you still have a duty to go learn it. The information is everywhere if you want to. You can go to an AI prompt right now and say, I am calling on restaurants selling them wine, and I need to bring myself up to speed much more dramatically in terms of how a restaurant makes money, how they work, what's important to them. You can do it in just an hour and then study. So it's not, I mean, we live in a marvelous, marvelous time. But most people aren't doing this, Scott, because they're stuck in the old model. In fact, I think we might be talking about this coming up.

28:42But when you're interviewing salespeople, don't be looking at their experience and their resume and the connections they have. You need to be looking at how modern is their sales approach. Are they focused on the customer? Do they understand the customer journey? Do they understand what motivates people to buy? Most salespeople don't. They've never read a single book on sales, let alone studied every, you know, framework, selling framework that's out there. So our industry is really lacking in the kind of sales training that is needed today. And I'm trying to provide that. I crank out articles.

29:14I'm constantly doing webinars. I have lots of online courses. I'm trying to fill that need that our industry has for more business acumen, less product knowledge, more business acumen. I have some tongue-in-cheek videos that say, you know, business acumen eats wine knowledge for breakfast. I have, there's no shortage of this messaging. And, you know, certainly my belief that more people need to hear it. And you've been shouting this from the rooftops for more than a decade. And it still hasn't necessarily trickled down to, I'd say, the vast majority of folks. You mentioned books and I want to touch on it.

29:46You mentioned it. you've just written a book, Up the Down Staircase, How Wine and Spirit Brands Are Growing in a Declining Market. Can you share a little bit about that? I know you mentioned it talks about seven or so principles. Give us a brief overview, if you might. Yeah, I'm very proud of this book because I think it's perfect for what the times are. I think everyone who has a sales quota or is an owner of a brand needs to read it because it literally is the playbook for the modern era. Every single day you look in the press, there's depressing news, right? It's not fun to keep up with the trade press.

30:21But yet there's brands growing by double digits. And you showcase them on your show all the time. One of the reasons I love your podcast is I, along with all other listeners, get practical tips of how people are winning. What are they doing that we're not? And let's go do likewise. So my book is meant to meet a very specific need. Look, yes, times are hard, probably unprecedented. But that doesn't mean you can't grow. You've got to ignore the environment and forge ahead anyway. So I provided seven principles that if you follow them, you too will have double-digit growth. I don't accept that you have to wait for the market to bounce back.

30:53I understand what's happening to the category on a number of fronts. I get that. But as a brand owner, you cannot let that stop you from being successful. The book is my attempt to provide some relief, to provide some hope that you really can prosper, even in the current environment. And is this for salespeople, for brand owners, for a combination? Who benefits the most from some of the principles you detail in your book? I think it's for all of the above. Brand owners, marketing executives, sales executives, frontline salespeople. Anyone who's involved with direct interaction with customers for a brand, for an adult beverage brand, should read it.

31:31It's like putting a wet finger in the wind to see what direction the wind is blowing. We're kind of missing that compass in our industry. Everyone feels like they're adrift and not quite sure what to do. I want it to be this beacon of hope. And I just spell it out as simply as possible in 112 Kindle pages. There you go. And this is not theory, right? This comes from my practice. I have a front row seat to the brands that are winning and growing by double digits. And I share what it is they do differently than the average brand. So I hope that people will take advantage of it. And for$10, I mean, it's kind of a low risk.

32:07I'm not and I didn't write it to make money. I don't need the money that a book would generate. That'd be great, but that's not why I did it. I did it because the industry needed it. I've spent a long time building a large audience, and now I have a responsibility to use that audience for good. Yeah, I don't think anyone gets involved in wine purely for the money, right? As the joke goes, to make a small fortune, start with a large one. And certainly when it comes to writing books about how to sell wine, I imagine the audience is even smaller, but definitely will need to pick that up. I already started the sample because it just came out yesterday and from the day we're recording.

32:43And one thing you point out right up front is that you used AI to help, right, as a partner, but you driving the bus, so to speak. I'm curious, with so many changes over the past two, three years, are there methodologies or ways in which you think salespeople or sales teams should responsibly employ AI to give them an edge or to better understand their customers? Yeah, I love this. And I'm in the middle of creating a new course called AI that sells to answer this need. Like, okay, I'm a salesperson response. I've got a sales quota and a territory. How can I use AI to better serve my customers?

33:21So this is a big topic for me. Once you make the shift and understand that the customer journey is important, that people don't just make decisions because you've made a great presentation and you understand that it has to be about the customer. Here's where AI comes in. You can use AI to say, hey, here's my presentation that I'm getting ready to make. Can you look at it and tell me, is it focused on the customer enough? Am I addressing the customer's needs directly or am I talking too much about the features and benefits of my product? So you can get feedback from AI on your pitch. You can also use it to research buyers and companies to go really, really deep.

33:56I use Chad CPT. I use the pro version that has unlimited deep research, and I use it to research buyers, to research companies. I want to know everything that's been written. Let's take a major chain buyer. I want to know everything they've ever said and done on social media. I want to read every time they've been mentioned in a press release or an article. I want to comb through their resume to look for clues of how they think, who influences them. So AI is really great for getting inside the head of your buyer. Now, if you don't believe that the key to selling is to focus on the customer and what they want, then AI is not going to help you.

34:33But when you cross that bridge and you realize, hey, my success is directly tied to my customer's success, I have a saying, Scott, that the sale happens in their world, not your world. And AI can be a really powerful tool to help you get out of your world and into the customer's world. Because that's where all the sales success is happening. And there's other applications too. Help with messaging. Most salespeople, if they write an email, for example, it's way too long. No one's going to read it. What I tell people is go ahead and write the email. Say exactly what you want to say to the buyer.

35:04Then take it up to AI and say, can you rewrite this so that it's super short, no whiff of self-promotion, and 100 % focus on the customer. and boom. And I need a killer subject line. It's things like that where AI really shines, helping you with your messaging and your targeting and your understanding of what your customers want. I want to switch gears a little and touch on some of the things that I know you've said or touted. One kind of trope or cliche that you'll still see all the time in, say, job descriptions is suppliers looking to hire someone who will help them manage their distributor.

35:38And if I'm not mistaken, right, you believe that this notion of managing a distributor, like those days are over. And I'm curious, one, if you agree. And two, if folks can't manage a distributor, how then do they best go about influencing them and gaining, you know, mindshare as it were? Yeah, this is a huge topic. So I'll try to keep it succinct. Here's where I'm speaking on behalf of distributors everywhere, right? Because they can't come out and say it. I have a great blog post that says five things distributors won't say to your face. You really need to go read that because they're not going to come out and say it.

36:15But if we were to sit here with a little roundtable of key distributor people and they felt no fear of repercussions, they would say things like this. Suppliers, they don't have any clue how our market works. They don't know about the complexion of chain to independence. They don't. I wish they would do their homework. Their expectations of what we could do are completely unrealistic and detached from reality. So if you want to influence a distributor, and there are limitations to that because they're overwhelmed, you need to empathize with them. You need to understand what they're up against.

36:45You need to do your part. I like to say there's only three things you can expect from a distributor as a baseline. They'll hold your products in inventory. They'll deliver to the accounts that you and your team have sold to. And they'll potentially match your efforts. Well, if you don't have any efforts in the marketplace, if your shoe leather is not all over the market, How in the world would you expect a distributor to do it? But Scott, there are people listening right now, or maybe they should be listening and they're not. They truly see the role of the distributor as here's the product, here's some sell sheets, go sell.

37:18And that's just, those days are gone. So you just can't do that. You've got to work with them. You've got to work alongside them. You've got to bring, you've got to make their job easier. Take some of the load off their shoulders and put it on your own shoulders. It's a very different time. And there are suppliers out there who get this and do a really good job of it. They're respectful of the distributor's time. They don't waste their time. They don't ask them questions they should already know the answer to who could look up themselves. Respecting the distributor's time will get you halfway to where you want to be.

37:46I don't know why more people don't see this. There's a slide that I think it comes from IRI. It's called the Humbler. And it's a visual representation of all the brands in the marketplace. And we know this intuitively that the vast majority of brands are driven by very few small companies. Well, where does that leave the other 100 ,000 brands that are trying to make their mark? The distributor is the bottleneck. And if you don't understand how to work with them, you're not going to break through. So the bottom line is this. You've got to take the approach that the distributor is really your strongest logistics partner.

38:19But for building sales and growing the brand, that's on you now. The responsibility for building a brand has shifted from the distributor back to the supplier. That's the reality. Accept it or not. Reject it at your peril. What does that look like for a supplier in terms of developing, what I'll say, multiple relationships with the distributor? In terms of legacy, it would be common for a supplier to open up a line of communication with, say, a portfolio manager or one of the buyers at the distributor. And then, you know, the message kind of trickles down to the salespeople. But, you know, should they, can they be talking to the distributor's marketing department, the salespeople directly outside of sales blitzes and email campaigns?

39:06What does a good conceptualization of the multiple relationships a supplier should have with a distributor look like to you? Well, I think it starts with good communication and respecting people's time. If you have something to say to the distributor and you're going to put it in email, use as few words as possible. In fact, if you can get your message across in just a subject line, you will have just ingratiated yourselves to them. So you really must respect their time and understand what they're up against. And don't, you know, it's not like this thing you just hand off and then they're supposed to go do it.

39:36That's just not practical. So if you want to truly partner with a distributor and have them help you, you're going to have to do certain things. You're going to have to come with realistic expectations and you have to be really clear when you communicate. Well, imagine this, Scott, a brand new brand finally gets approval. They enter the market. Imagine the first meeting with the distributor when they said, we've done our homework. We understand what the complexion of this market is. We know the ratio of chains to independence. We've identified the top 25, 30 best accounts. We know that everybody wants to be in there.

40:06We've done our homework. We've done our research. We're committed to doing our part to build demand and sell through. that is like a wave of relief to the distributor because they can see that this supplier is showing up ready to be a real partner not to be a burden to them you know the airing of grievances that you see on instagram from that jack danielle i mean i i cut and pasted those this year and i uploaded all of them to like 80 of the complaints of distributor sales reps to ai and then i use ai to analyze it and pull out the themes and this was one of the big themes that suppliers show up with no clear expectations, unrealistic expectations when they have them.

40:44And it's just a pain in the neck for the distributors. So I put the burden on the supplier community to get this right. And a little empathy will go a long way. Try to understand what their world is like. It's not a command and control thing. It used to be. Suppliers used. I've sat in distributor sales room where a big supplier comes in and literally cracks the whip and lays down the law and tells you how it's going to be. But that just doesn't fly anymore. And even the really, really big brands that you would think would have no trouble influencing the distributor, they struggle too, because they don't understand how they've got to take back some of that work themselves.

41:20Yeah. I'm curious when it comes to tools, right? Like, and that, right? Like, we can respect the distributor's time. I think an old way of thinking is like a supplier coming to a market and say to the distributor, we've got swag, we've got t-shirts and hats, and that's going to help sell it. And, you know, I'd say some of the subtext I'm hearing is it's almost better to go in and say, instead of swag, we have valuable information about our consumer, about our core customers. Are there other types of tools, other types of leverage a supplier can come in and use in working with a distributor to get them to perk up and say, these guys get it?

41:57Yeah. Even if you do everything right, the distributor may or may not have time to devote to your brand, but that shouldn't stop you from doing all those right things. You just have to have realistic expectation. I tell my clients that if any part of your growth plan requires a distributor to take action, you're going to be in trouble. Whatever the distributor can do for you is a bonus. It's gravy on, you know, it's icing on the cake. You're going to have to take full responsibility for the state of your brand in the marketplace. That being said, there are ways to work with the distributor, but don't expect too much from them.

42:30You know, I write a lot about don't depend too much on your distributors. And people miss this, Scott. I'm not saying you don't need distributor. I'm saying don't depend on them too much. It's the too much that gets everybody in trouble. Have a more balanced approach, a 50-50 approach. Make this distributor want to match your efforts because they see you busting your butt and doing everything you can. It's not a fair relationship in most cases. Suppliers aren't doing their bit in the partnership to expect plot the distributor to do too much. But you mentioned tools, right? I like to think about the world of tools this way.

43:03There's hard tools like sell sheets and wearables and, you know, dealer loader type things. And then there's soft tools, insights, market intelligence, the commitment to help you, help you, Mr. Distributor, serve your customers better. And there's no better tool in my mind than doing your homework on the market and understanding what the lay of the land is like. One of the biggest complaints distributors have of their suppliers is they are just clueless about what this market is like. They're not there to babysit you and educate you on the market. You're supposed to do that. So think about hard tools and soft tools and really lean into the soft tools.

43:40Along that line of thinking, you know, let's discuss a little bit about the methodologies, the psychology of sales, right? So great. The supplier takes some of this message that you're sharing to heart and they say, we've got to go into the market and we've got to be pushing this product ourselves. And typically they might be used to a distributor handholding or introducing them to an account. I'm curious if you might walk myself and our listeners through some methodology, either your own or something else that someone else has worked on that gives people a framework for thinking about how they might go and sell in a consistent manner.

44:17Yeah, I love this. I'm a big fan of frameworks and systems. And you've heard me talk about military discipline as it relates to a sales team. This is a big part of that. Trust your systems, trust the framework. That is key. So here's a good framework that anyone can use. And I like to distill the world of selling wine and spirits to two important things. One, who to sell to. The 80-20 rule is real. 20 % of the accounts do drive 80 % of the volume. It's true for every price tier, every product category, every market in the country. So you, and here's the good news, it's 2026. You can use AI and other tools to identify those 20%.

44:55Most people miss this, but who to sell to is all about focusing and coming up with a target account list. That would be a great framework. Anyone can do it. All you need is an internet connection and a pen and paper. So who to sell to will take you a very long way. Do the homework. Find out where the business is done. The second thing is much harder, and that's how to sell to them. The modern sales approach, which is you're focusing on the customer, you're respecting the customer journey. You know it's going to take multiple touches before they buy. Very few sales are made instantly. Make an appointment, do the presentation, and close.

45:32That just doesn't work. So the framework is who to sell to, keep a narrow, tight focus where the business can really move the needle, and use a modern approach. And for that, I recommend Daniel Pink's book, To Sell as Human. Required reading for everyone in our industry. It will really get your head on straight about what moves people to buy. And it's not a presentation. It's not a single transaction. It's the approach. When you shift from a transactional approach to a true partnership approach where you literally protract the journey to provide opportunities to prove value, you're gonna close a lot more sales.

46:09and the sales that you make will stick. One of the downsides of the transactional way of selling, which is accelerated by things like incentives and blitzes and crude drives and all of this, is those placements generated that way are very temporary. There's a whole system in place. Every distributor sales rep has several accounts that they flip products in and out of to pocket the incentive money. This is not good for long-term growth. So if you're narrowing your focus and you're making sales the right way, those sales stick. They stick and they generate revenue month after month. And then you can build upon that.

46:41So that's the framework. Who to sell to, how to sell to them. Work on those two things and watch your sales go up. One thing that you mentioned, right, is the notion that like it takes multiple touch points. And I think some suppliers are surprised because their experience as the brand owner or founder, right, they have a much higher success rate. It's exciting to buy from the founder. and they think, well, if I'm one founder and I can sell 20 cases over a day, well, if a distributor has five reps, they should be able to sell 100 cases. And that math doesn't translate. How do you think about resetting expectations, right-sizing them?

47:19What does that look like in terms of some fraction or proportion? What might a supplier actually expect from a distributor that does well, but isn't necessarily the owner. I think the first step to really make change in this area is you've got to understand that making an appointment so that you can pitch your products, overcoming objections, and then closing the sale. That is really not a very advanced, modern way of selling. I brought out one of my favorite books because I'm going to read this quote to you. This is a book called Indispensable, How to Become the Company Your Customers Can't Live Without by Joe Calloway.

47:54But this is what he says in the chapter called Selling is Dead. And I adhere to this completely. The old days of getting the appointment to make your presentation and then waiting to overcome objections are so yesterday's news, it hurts. I love that thing. And I believe in it 100%. So to answer your question, stop trying to expect to make a sale instantly. Founders can do that because they're a little bit like celebrities, right? And you want to give them their due when they're in front of you. But the average salesperson doesn't have that kind of power that kind of leverage so they need to respect the customer journey and have a simple framework for that and here's where crm comes in most crm systems have what's called an opportunity pipeline or a deal pipeline and if you structure it right it really helps frame up how to move from having no rapport or trust with the client to having a deep partnership with them and there are stages very predictable stages the first is to do your homework do your research the cast of characters everything you need to know about the account so the step first step in that process is do your homework.

48:53Research the cast of characters. Research everything to know about the account. There's lots to learn if you devote yourself to it. After that, the game becomes building trust and rapport. The best way to build trust and rapport, ask really great questions about their business. Then you're ready to move towards solutions. So here's a great framework that everyone can get their hands on. There's a great book called Mastering the Complex Sale by Jeff tool. And in this, he uses a four-part framework, discover, diagnose, design, and then deliver. And I love this framework. It respects the customer journey.

49:27It frames the sale as being a by-product of a much larger relationship. So then the game, Scott, becomes how can I add business value to this relationship? How can I show up for this customer in a way that speaks to their needs and what they want? How can I help them please their customers? You get that framework setup, you're going to be very successful. Let's talk CRM. Let's talk a tool that every supplier, every distributor, sales rep is familiar with, probably under utilizing or not utilizing correctly. How do you think CRMs are rightly deployed and used? How do you think they're misused or abused?

50:06They're misused quite a bit because of the lack of understanding what CRM really is and what it's supposed to do. A lot of people confuse a digital, I'm making notes of all my sales calls and it's going into my CRM system. That's certainly a useful part of it. This is what I would suggest. If you want to evaluate a CRM system that you're looking at, make sure it has a Kanban board view of the sales pipeline. It's the only way to have a forward looking view of what's happening in a salesperson's territory. So if your CRM system doesn't have a can ban board view of this opportunity pipeline, the sales pipeline, you're not really using CRM like you should.

50:42And having everything in one place is to the advantage of the salesperson so they can better serve their customers. Too many salespeople see CRM as a big brother-ish kind of a thing. Why don't you trust me? I know what I'm doing. Leave me alone. And that's really the wrong way to look at it. I like to frame it this way, Scott. The key to sales success is flawless follow-up. I mean, I don't care who you talk to, how you slice it. That's the key. Buyers tend to give their business to people who they can depend on and trust. You know what the key to flawless follow-up is? Sierra. Having everything in one place.

51:12Nothing falls through the cracks. No detail is lost. Details matter. Here's a great anecdote case study. I recently analyzed a client's sales calls at their team. I extracted 45 days worth of sales calls. And I used AI to analyze the language they were using and the things that they were saying about what they did. And then I analyzed the condition of the data in the CRM. Do they have the first name, the last name, the correct title, not a guess at the title or the function of the role, but their actual title? Does it have their email address, their preferred times for contact? Most CRM systems do not.

51:47Most salespeople do not have those things. But that's the power of CRM. When details matter and it's all about the customer and CRM, which stands for Customer Relationship Management, if you're using it right, it is a total game changer. a total game changer. I use CRM every day in my business. How in the world would I keep up with all the commitments I've made and the promises? And I wouldn't be able to do it without a cloud-based, mobile-friendly CRM that has everything all in one place. It's integrated with my email. It's integrated with my calendar. It's integrated with my to-do list. Nothing, and I mean nothing, ever falls through the cracks because I'm leveraging CRM.

52:25That's what I'm inviting salespeople to do. It's a powerful, powerful tool. What I'm hearing is that an Excel spreadsheet of all your accounts with your buyer's names isn't going to cut it with some notes added. Can you share, you know, one, I think, rookie mistake that I've seen and heard about time and again is great. I make the sale and then I'm done. Maybe I'll go and do the in-store tasting or I'll do the education. How does a CRM, how should it work with regard to post-sale follow up and getting that reorder. Because that's part of the follow up to service after the sale is not necessarily a average salesperson's favorite thing.

53:01They love the thrill of the hunt, right? That the juice comes from closing the sale. And that is nothing like that feeling doing all the legwork after the sale, supporting the placement, training the staff, running promotions. That stuff is less sexy, but it's important. It's very important. So your CRM system can. And nowadays there's AI embedded in CRM, which will literally look through your call notes and recommend what the next step is for you. So after you make the sale and you now are in, and now you're moving to the service after the sale mode, your CRM system can provide insights and signals as to what to do next.

53:40And customers love that because they love a dependable sales rep who always does what they say they're going to do. CRM system will help you do that. You look like a genius. And here's another quick side note. I want to share one of the ways I use AI and CRM in my own business and hope it will inspire some people. But I don't, I don't know if anybody knows this about me, but I don't travel. I have 2 million miles in American that I achieved 15 years ago. It takes a lot to get me on a plane. I traveled 40 times a year for 17 straight years. I go nowhere. I do all of my business all around the world sitting right here at my desk.

54:15In 2025, I did 700 Zoom calls. I have the transcripts from every single one. That's all in my CRM system. I'm not smart enough, and my memory just doesn't work like it used to when I was younger. I need these tools to help me keep my promises, know what the next steps are, and deliver what I said I would deliver. I don't know how you can get by without it. And the average salesperson out on the street, in and out of the car. So it's just I don't understand why a salesperson wouldn't use CRM to help themselves be more effective. and please their customers better. So I'm very bullish on it. Yeah, yeah, understandably so.

54:50I'm curious, right? You have been at wine and spirit sales for some time doing them yourself and now training others for some of the biggest names in the business. I'm curious if there is one repeated offender practice, something that you think is outdated that you still see people doing time and time again that is just a, let's call it a pet peeve. Is there anything that you can think of? Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is this intense focus on the product. And I get it. I mean, thank goodness we're not selling plumbing supplies and pipe fittings. That would be not very exciting. We get to deal with this wonderful, gorgeous, hedonistic beverage world.

55:28It's so exciting. It's hard not to talk about the product. That's the default. So I get that. But it's this focus on the product that is thinking is all about the product. That, Scott, is the biggest flaw. It's not about the product. It's about the customer. So there's another great book recommendation. There's a book called Buyer First by Carol Mahoney. Should be required reading. It's the book that I wished I'd written. I loved it. I first heard about it from this podcast called Sales Gravy. And that is another quick side note. Most salespeople do not invest in their own understanding of sales.

56:01They don't take courses. They don't read books. They don't apply themselves to this higher level of sales that goes way above transactions. So I want to really inspire and ask people to do that. There's so many great books that will point the way. Carol Mahoney's book, Buyer First, is one of them. It helps you get out of this mindset that it is about the product. It's about the product later, right? It's not about the product attributes. It's what your product will do for your client's business. You make that shift and everything changes. I love it. You've given us a library, and we're going to link to all these books.

56:35Buyer First, Mastering the Complex Sell, To Sell as Human. in your book, Ben, I'm curious if a drinks entrepreneur came to you and asked for guidance as to whom they might follow online or an online class or a movie or something, some type of inspiration and or educational product or service, where might or who might you recommend provide them with the greatest insight? Yeah, it's a great question. And I know that so many of your guests answered this question by saying you need to watch the business of drinks podcast but i joined that chorus because you're literally providing people the keys to the kingdom you are showing and sharing unabashedly what brands that are winning are doing it's absolute gold so if you have no time for anything else start listening to the business of drinks podcast because it's just it's gold it's the keys to the kingdom and i've mentioned some of these books but if you don't have time to read all of them if you only had time to read one it would be daniel pink i really love the way Daniel Pink thinks about the world of sales in a very modern way.

57:37And if you read it, it's an easy, fun read. He's a great author, very entertaining guy. It could literally change the way you see the world. I'm also a big fan. You and I are both readers. I believe you're the sum total of everything you've read. I wish I could read and comprehend as fast as you and your young brain, but I devote myself to it nevertheless. So there are no shortage of great books that have to do with business and customer success, not just about wine. Like if you spend an hour learning about wine knowledge or spirits knowledge, that's great. Balance it with an equal hour of business acumen and selling skills.

58:13So it's really a mindset. What I'm recommending is not just a tool or a book, but a mindset of continual improvement, having a hunger for learning how to take your selling to a whole new level. Now, shameless plug, I have tons of online courses. Some of them are quite affordable. Some are more expensive. My Relentless Debt course, my newest course, it's everything you could possibly need to get with the program. All the stuff we've talked about today, you want to know how to implement it? Relentless Debt lays it all out for you. It's just as simple as it can be. So I try to be someone who provides that training and information to anyone who wants to aspire to a better way of doing it.

58:49I so appreciate that. We'll link to that as well in the show notes. Ben, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for being an advocate of understanding and performing sales better, smarter in a modern way. It is needed and it is appreciated. And thank you again for joining us on Business of Drinks. Well, thank you for having me.

59:13Ben Salisbury: Thanks for joining us on Business of Drinks. Subscribe on YouTube at Business of Drinks Podcast. Follow us on Spotify or listen in on Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. please tap the notification button so you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops and help us spread the word click those star ratings give us a review and share episodes or clips on your socials it really helps us reach new listeners finally if there's something that you'd like us to cover on the podcast tell us we're at podcast at business of drinks.com or reach out via instagram or linkedin we love hearing from you and we respond to each and every message thanks and see you next time