Alison Berger's superpower is persistence

29:12What did you want to say? I wanted to say that slow down, breathe, be in the beauty, take notice of the subtlety of a shadow, take notice of the subtlety of a beam of light, just observe and be with it. And so the pieces that I created, which again, through Holly's support, it's like lighting is supposed to light. And I was like, these pieces don't light. They are bodies of illumination in and of themselves. They are meant to be still points in the room where you just kind of notice something and and observe it for what it is in the beautiful moment. And that became a new kind of language. It's like lighting.

29:58I would always say to like, this isn't meant to cut an onion by, this is meant to bring you into, it's like electric candlelight. And that was a hard thing. It's kind of like, it's a light, but it's not a light. Can I put a larger watt into the bulb? And I was like, no, you cannot. this is not meant to light your way right some task that you're performing no and that was so so unusual and then you know we started to tell the story that from fireflies it became a constellation of stars and then it became you know this this moment of quiet meditative light where you're just like it's just beautiful it's it's and and who doesn't look good in candlelight So who doesn't want more candlelight in their home if you don't have to have a candle?

30:47So it became this kind of understanding that's like, oh, it's a focal point of a room in a different way. All joking aside, I mean, how long did it really take you to build a business that could keep up with the demand that was suddenly created through this relationship with Holly and eventually others as well? I mean, with Holly, it took a handful of years. It was, you know, additive, right? It was slowly, first of all, don't change the product once it's been photographed. Okay. Good lesson. Okay. Got that. Got to check. Ship things on time. Check. Excellent. All right. So it was a trajection and it was a fast trajection.

31:30And I liken it to being on the bullet train because it was happening really fast. And so I had to adapt. And, you know, I think being part of successful is also being creative. Business is successful. And I'm so interested in the business side and I find it fascinating. So it was like another medium I was working in was business along with creating these objects of illumination. And that was such an exciting thing to bring together and talking about like, you know, sitting with Holly and being like, how are we doing? And Holly would say to me, it's so unusual that you want to look at numbers and understand the feedback.

32:09And I'm like, but that's part of the connection. I want to see how well it's doing and where we can do better. Well, and interestingly, that was so interesting for her. She was so engaged by the business side of it, right? Right. So we kind of met each other in our places of familiarity. And although Holly is such a creative spirit, it was just like, I want to know what you know. And it was like, oh, I want to see what you see. And the business grows. And then Holly Hunt's going really well. And then you meet this fellow Gary Friedman in West Hollywood. He's got a store, apparently. Now, were you familiar with Gary Friedman and the whole RH operation at the time?

32:58Sure. I had seen what they were doing. Sure. And I forget, all joking aside, how you met him. I mean, did you just bump into him? I mean, I literally bumped into him and somehow, whether I went to meet him or he came to meet me, I can't remember. But when we did meet, it was like, we'd like for you to do a commission for us in New York. And so it was like, oh, it's a commission. That's because that was part of my agreement with Holly Hunt at the time. The company is that I was doing outside commissions that were separate from my collection. So I had clients that I was doing very site-specific projects for.

33:38And that was a very site-specific. It was in the meatpacking district. It's, I believe, it's six stories tall. The installation we did back in 2018. and it was like a unique one-of-a-kind installation. So while working with Holly, you would have some designers who would want to commission custom work with you and you did those commissions on the side in addition to, right? Yeah, outside of the Holly Hunt representation, I often would be working, and we still do, with designers or private clients who want something that no one else has. And that's the whole other genre of creativity where they're like, yes, we see your collection.

34:26It's beautiful. And we don't want that. We want something that doesn't exist. And so I've always had that kind of branch of the tree has always been a big part of the studio as well. Interesting. Okay. So Mr. Friedman frames it as this is a one-off commissioned piece for this giant store I'm opening in the meatpacking district and we're going to need your lights to basically run six stories long. And you said, sure, that sounds fun. Yeah, I mean, they actually showed me the building and then I picked the location, I believe, where I wanted the installation to go. And yeah, and so it was a unique piece.

35:05It was made through my studio and that's where it lived for a few years. It's permanently up and now it's just there in perpetuity. And he must come to you at some point and say, Allison, we need a relationship. Yeah. I mean, I think a few years later, it was like, would you like to do some designs for us? And it was like, well, I don't know how to do that. All I know how to make is, and design are the things that I make. What would it look like if I don't actually ever touch the thing itself? And I was like, I wasn't quite, I was like, oh, that's such a new challenge. and I'm always pushing myself creatively.

35:46And so that was, you know, after working at that point for over 20 years a certain way, I thought, oh, that could be interesting, you know, because candidly, what's that expression? You know, candidly, since the start of when I started working with Holly and even when I was doing objects, my work has been knocked off or copied, right? And so I thought, oh, this is an interesting way to take back, to claim a part of that mass production world that I'm not a part of, but yet I'm clearly feeding. And so it was kind of a creative challenge like that. Like, oh, could I actually take back some of the legacy of what I design or what I make through a design venue where I never actually touch the work?

36:33So it was a huge creative challenge because I have so much control over the pieces we make here in Los Angeles. And I don't have that control over something I never touch. Right. So that was the deal with RH that you were simply going to design it. And they, through whatever their resources were, wherever in the world, all of that is happening. Right. You weren't, it wasn't happening in your studio in Los Angeles. Correct. I do not make any of it. And so it was like, you know, and this is, this is, you know, fashion because I worked with Hermes and Comme de Garçon, like fashion is such, has always been such an interesting template to me, how you can have couture and ready wear.

37:14And I know that's not really part of our industry. And, but I mean, I'm not someone to color within the lines. And I was just like, I want to try and see if it's possible to go, go from my very high couture to doing designs that are more accessible. And as an artist, I want to connect with a larger audience. And isn't that what I'm here to do, to spread the beauty of light on every level that's possible for it to be received?

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38:30Not to bring up bad memories for you, but since you mentioned, forgive me, but I'm so curious because as you were just saying, clearly you've been copied so many times. Do you remember the first time you saw a copy of your light? Oh gosh, I really do, Dennis. It was wild. I was, I mean, I'm talking like, gosh, maybe it was like the first time I'd been published with a light. And six months later, I'm at a stoplight in, you know, in Santa Monica Boulevard and a city bus pulls up to me and it's CB2. And the byline of the billboard on the bus is Firefly Lights by CB2. And it was like Fireflies. And I was just like, God, that took a second.

39:22Wow. You know, all these years. And I literally just remember like gripping my steering wheel going, how did they get there so fast? You know, like, and that was the first time it was like someone just not only did they take the aesthetic, they took the story. And that's what's so interesting. It's like, oh, wow, you took the look, but you took my heart too. You don't even know what fireflies really are. And it was like not photographed. me like the photography that Holly Hunt and I worked with a photographer here in Los Angeles, Josh White, who's phenomenal. And we created this aesthetic for lighting that then they started knocking off how we would photograph the lighting.

40:02And it was just like, well, why don't you guys just come over so that we can make it easier for you? Like it was. Well, so in the beginning, did you think there was a way to fight back? Or did you think that there was some legal action to be taken? Or how did you? Yeah, I mean, you just I think because I had other friends who were, you know, a couple of years ahead of me, they're just like, here's all the criteria that keeps you from prosecuting, or pursuing it rather. And it was just like, right, they changed it just enough And someone said to me, who was actually, again, fashion, one of the heads up at Chrome Hearts, they're like, you can't do anything until they're actually forging your signature.

40:47So they can get that close. But if they start writing your name on the pieces, that's when you can go after them. Other than that, you can't. And it was just like, wow, that's a cold reality. So I better just continue to be the well of creativity and just keep moving. And that's what I hopefully have continued to do. So for years, I guess this is building up because this happened, right? Yeah, this is the years, like 18 years of this. Wow. Okay. So part of what happens with RH coming to you in this way is you're thinking, okay, this is my way of somehow taking something, reclaiming something. Correct.

41:28Reclaiming without compromising the couture that we're doing. Right. Okay. Okay. And you're going to learn to figure out how to design something and then hand it off and their team is... Would you even prototype them or you wouldn't even do that? No, I didn't even do that. I didn't even do that. Because it's like, I really wanted to, like I wanted to keep it separate. I'm not the maker. I'm not the maker. And being the maker for me is everything. It's everything. And so it's like, oh, wow, I can connect with a larger audience. And how can I retain part of it without ever having touched the work?

42:12And I'm really pleased with the results. Okay. And I'm assuming it gets your name out there. I mean, I've spoken with other people who, and I don't want to use the term gave into RH, but I mean, I've spoken with other people like David Sutherland. I mean, David Sutherland was very frank with me and said, they were copying my stuff. And so I thought, let me jump in and have them partner with me rather than do it that way and get my name in their big old catalogs. And he says that was a great decision that he made because suddenly, right, he's part of their marketing materials. And so it was very helpful to their operation.

42:55And other people have said the same. It's a great distribution channel. It's another stream of revenue. And maybe to use your analogy, maybe the ready to wear can help support the couture in some constructive way. Did it work that way? I don't know if it does. I think couture is couture. I think it is. And I think people who understand that gravitate towards it. And I'm not quite sure what's helped what other than my just staying true to myself and continuing to create. I do know that it's really, for me, so much about connecting the language of light. And I don't mean to sound esoteric and I don't mean to feel like, you know, but it's really so important for me.

43:45And I think that was the big motivation and distribution and all of that. I don't know if that's really been part of it for me as far as the motivation. Okay. Because some people talk to me about how some people have licensing lines and they say, you know what? In many cases, that revenue stream just helps support my design firm or my creativity, right? I mean, 100%, right? And so it's like all things help support the studio. My studio is the most important thing to sustain. But that relationship goes on and - Well, they're continuing. I mean, you know, right now that's not something I'm focusing on.

44:29Right now I'm focusing on really creating limited edition pieces. So I'm taking the couture and taking it even higher. And I've been traveling to other countries learning different techniques. I really am looking towards gallery representation for these limited edition pieces. And so again, it's kind of like I'm constantly in different lanes on the highway of creativity, I guess. So sometimes I'm running the business. Sometimes I'm really pushing myself to learn new techniques. And that's just where the focus is right now. So I love that. And let's talk about that because the relationship with Holly Hunt kind of winds down.

45:09And from what I understand, you've got some new relationships with Thomas Lavin and Sousa Hughes and Bright. And so you've got that representation, but you're also, from what you were just suggesting, looking maybe for some gallery opportunities to show even more couture-like work that you're creating. Correct. It's like, again, just pushing myself in terms of technique and collaboration to create works that maybe there's only three ever made. And the production and quotation marks of what I do for my collection is already so sometimes single digit, but it's a different price point and a different strategy that I'm dreaming of creating now.

45:57And usually I have the idea years before something shows up. So let's hope that this is something that's possible. So is that right? So something will come to you and it will be years before it comes to fruition? Correct. Correct. And why is that? What is the process? I mean, sometimes what I think of is way far advanced than where I actually am creatively. You know, I'll get an idea for something. I'm like, I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to make it. And now I need to go on the research path of figuring it out. So, you know, things happen in cycles. And I feel like I'm stepping more.

46:33I think I was in the business side and the production side. And I think I'm stepping back more into the artist side, you know, all these years later. You know, almost it's a new beginning in a way. Did you experience the, so we've been talking for some time about how our industry as a whole is trying to adjust to this incredible demand pickup that we experienced during the height of COVID and everybody was busy and everybody was buying new homes and moving and hiring designers and specifying all this product. And then just as quickly as all that business came about, things dropped dramatically for so many people.

47:18And as we've been talking about recently, the wealthy are still spending money, but they're just spending money now on traveling the world and taking exotic trips. And they've outfitted all of their many homes. And so they're doing other things. And so we're waiting for this next pickup in the cycle. And so interest rates are high and people aren't buying and selling homes as much as they once were. Did you experience all of that in your business? And if so - Well, 100%. Okay. 100%. You know, things being consistent, but not that tsunami that it was. You know, consistent. And so the consistency is actually more familiar than what was happening during COVID.

48:05That was almost like a rare kind of peak that it just like it became that accelerated. What it feels like now is more similar to what it was. And that was a rarefied moment. And it was kind of like, if you thought that that was the new normal, get ready, because I don't think it's going to be. And I think having been around the block a few times, I was like, this is great, but this isn't the way it is. This is like, don't start thinking like it's, you know, and so running kind of an atelier the way that we do. I didn't like hire 30 people. I was like, just the people I have working are just, we're all just going to have to work a little bit longer and then things will level out and we'll go back to the way it was in 2019 and 18.

48:49I think maybe I had kind of a realistic and I think other people who were newer to the industry were like, whoa, this is amazing. And I was like, I don't think this is going to last. And great if it does. But the crisis of people being locked in their homes, I recognized. And again, maybe from a cultural, anthropological point of view, it was like, of course you want to make your shelter the most comfortable when things are chaotic. And now, I mean, there's another layer of chaos going on, but I think that was a rare time and I saw it as that. And is that because you had been through other economic cycles that you, yes?

49:33Yeah, I think I, you know, I've been through the crash in 2000, you know, 2008, starting my own business. Like, I think the sustainability of a successful studio is to know when to stay lean and mean, even when things are busy, you know, because it's not about expanding and contracting. It's about staying the course with the team of people you trust, no matter what's coming down the road. And I think that's been, you know, as much as I can be in my heart about like what I want to make, I also have this side that's really like, you know, stable. And I'm like, this is, we need to stay the course and this is how we're going to do it.

50:15My dream is something I'd love to do is be able to teach artists and designers how to maybe almost mentor in terms of the business side. And I think that that is such an uncharted territory where so many people are. And fortunately, I am mentoring some people now. And it's like, it's how do you figure this stuff out, the business side? What are some of the things that you try and really drive home for the people that you're mentoring? What is it that you think is most important about what you've learned? Well, one thing is just like staying the course of what you believe, understanding that things take a long time.

50:55And I think there's such a level of impatience that a younger, sorry guys, younger generation, it's like, yeah, it's taken me years to figure out this one technique. And so like, if you believe in it, keep following it, don't give up. And really, let's look at how much it costs for you to keep your lights on and figure out not one project is going to pay for your month, but how many projects do you need to bring in a month to keep the lights on, you know, and who cares how much the money the person has, that should never be a factor. It should always be that you're doing okay, you're keeping your team okay.

51:32And And then at the end of the day, you're creating something you're proud of. And it's never, it doesn't matter who it's for. It has to be a bigger integrity of like, is it correct? And can it be cost effective to make? And so I'm just, I'm just, you know, thank you for asking me because I'm so passionate about being able to, to help after so many years of doing this. And I'm, you know, trying to find a platform where I could do it more constructively than the few people who have reached out. I love that you're pursuing that because I think it's one of the great challenges for creatives. And I've spoken to so many makers who shared with me even just that process of asking for what you were worth or charging, right?

52:21What it really took you to make instead of trying to do it on the cheap and say, no, no, no, it's only a few hundred dollars. when really you know it took you hours and hours. And as you were saying earlier, and six of them broke along the way. And I mean, learning to charge what you are worth is difficult for designers and it's difficult for makers. And yet it's such an important part of making it all work. I mean, it's so important because it's like you can't get in someone's head. It's like, would someone pay X for something? You know, you can only do that a few times before you're running in the red.

52:56And you're just like, if it's not going to go with this price, well, then I can't go down just to make it. I can't go down with the ship just to make it. It's just like, then I'll let it go. And to know in terms of integrity that it's not about trying to run a fast one by someone. It's like, this is the reality. And this is the reality of what it is. And I love this. I think I heard recently the Hermes, maybe it's one of the owners of Hermes, when something is costly, because it takes what it takes to create it for, you know, and it's meant to last versus something being expensive is something you replace because it wasn't well made.

53:38And that's what, you know, when you buy something three times, it's expensive. When you buy it once, it's costly. And that's very different. And to know that my clients have willed the pieces to their children and it's part of their legacy of heirlooms is like the greatest gift. It's like, right, you don't have to buy this ever again. You're going to buy this once and it's going to stay in your family. And that is a great privilege to be able to create that way. Well, and I think I was remembering years ago, I used to work for Waterworks. And I remember when we first introduced a copper bathtub and I think it was$35 ,000 at the time.

54:19And we literally had to train salespeople to be okay with telling a client this was a$35 ,000 tub and that they had clients that could certainly afford to buy this$35 ,000 tub, but you had to be able to say it was $35 ,000 without, right, with a straight face and with, and P.S. Waterworks now sells some marble bathtubs that I understand are several times that. And again, you have to be able to say that, right? Look at this incredible thing. It's a piece of art and here you go. Yes. And that's why the showrooms and the teams and the collaboration and the intimacy, because the showrooms are carrying the message of the work and they have to believe in it as much as I do.

55:01And I had this experience with Holly, we had done a chandelier and someone said, oh, I could just as easily hang a BMW from my ceiling. you know, it wasn't like, can you believe that person said that? I was like, no, that's a great opportunity to educate. And that's a great opportunity to explain why this is a BMW hanging from your ceiling, you know? And it was like, and that's part of the exciting part of being in collaboration is you get to train and teach and bring the story along. And that's part of the business of what I share with the mentees is like, don't try and convince someone. The audience will come to you.

55:39Don't try and sell someone on something they don't see. If they don't see it, respect that and let it go and let it be. I wonder to that point, there's two things I want to ask you that are related to what you're doing now. One, so you've been working with interior designers for years. And I wonder, what did you learn about how to best work with designers? What did you find they needed from you? And how were you able to help? I mean, Holly always talks about, I'm here to help designers look good in front of their clients. That's what she always saw as her job and her team's job. How did that show up for you?

56:26Exactly the same way. Create beautiful presentation drawings that help tell the story where the designer is able to set out a great example of what the work is to support them in carrying the message in the most eloquent way possible. So that's one way to do it. Another way is to get into the story of wanting to know about the clients and creating unique pieces that celebrate the client's life or the home that they're building to get to get to an intimate level of like, oh, this is a room they really love to be in. And I was like, okay, this room is going to change throughout the year, so will the installation we do.

57:03And how great is that, that they'll experience the space differently over time. And so it's understanding the lifestyle of who's living there. It's understanding why are they there? What's the emotion behind the space? How can we honor that and create something that makes it even more special? The shared value of we want this place, we want our home to be a place of rejuvenation. We want our home to be a place of grounding. Help us do that. And I'm like, those are my peeps. That's my crew. Yeah. Yeah. You know. So is any of this crazy tariff stuff that's going on? Is that, does that create any challenges for you?

57:44Do you have a bunch of things that are coming? Of course. Like, like all of it does, right? Like all of it. Like what a time we're in. Like how many, how many, how many walls can we be hitting in the last few years? I mean, it's just been like, you know, it's, it's like, it's just unbelievable. Of course, materials, all of it. And it puts things into question every day. Is that, is that the material we want to use? Why can the idea support it? All of it. One of the things that's come up a lot, a highly respected designer whose, whose work I, I really like a great deal. Brian Paquette, he shared recently on his Instagram stories, an annual review that he does to see how much prices have moved around in the marketplace.

58:29And so he priced out a project, just a furnishings only project that he had done in 2023. And he said it was about$378 ,000. And he said, it's not even our super high end, but it was a nice project. It was about a 3 ,200 square square foot space. And he went and he repriced it for today. And it's about$500 ,000. Yeah. And that's just, and not even two years. And, and so this conversation keeps coming up about how much more expensive things in our industry have become the materials to your point, everything. thing. And also this perception that we're so much more expensive. And is that coming up for you?

59:17And is it a concern? Yes, it's coming. I mean, first of all, it's like things are things more expensive or is the dollar just getting weaker? You know, which is why when I'm working with people, I'm like, please give me a budget. Like, please help me understand what's possible. That's really sustainable. And don't tell me that you don't have a budget because I'm going to come back with something that's not going to be affordable. So it's like, I need structure in order to create. And so yes, it's concerning. Hopefully we can stay creative regardless of the criteria of budget. I mean, obviously there's certain budgets we can't create based on how we produce the work, but like all of it's real.

59:57You know, some people like they don't want to talk about money or if They give you a budget. They think you're going to wring them dry for every last cent of what the budget was. You know, it's like, oh, it's$100. Well, it's$9.99, you know, like it's, but it's the reality of, I'm like, we have to talk about the resources into the project. Like, I'm not someone who's afraid to say like, what's feasible here? And to really take kind of the mystique around money off the table and just get real about it. Like, what can we do? Where are we looking for? And working in that way and saying, yes, the dollar buys less than it did.

1:00:36So what can we create with what we have? And yeah, it's challenging. And our industry is working for a very specific group of clientele. And so it's just part of what it's always been. It's just becoming more of what it ever was. There's all this talk about interest rates and the housing market and all of that. Do you pay attention to all of that? Do you pay attention to the stock market or what you think the high-end clients are being affected by? I mean - First of all, yes, all throughout the day. Okay. Okay. Because it's interesting to me. Okay. And I do see that people are being affected. And at the same time, more information about it doesn't necessarily help me know what's going to happen next.

1:01:26I just have to kind of be grounded in what is and wait to see what happens. I'm not someone who spends hours scrolling through the news cycle, but I do check in periodically through the day. And, you know, I think we're just in more unknown and we never really know, but it seems like more unknown is more present now. And it's like, let's see how we manage that, manage the unknown, the not knowing. Yeah. No, there's an awful lot to manage at the moment. It's a very noisy environment. I think tariffs have been implemented several times just since we began this conversation. So I'm not even sure.

1:02:06Canada, Mexico. I hope you're not getting a lot of materials out of Canada and Mexico, Alison, because those prices are going up soon. Allison, I'm so grateful to you for the time. It's such an incredible pleasure to get to speak with you. Dennis, I mean, dream come true to finally get to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more.

1:02:46If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.

1:03:12Thank you.