Corey Damen Jenkins is all in on everything

27:58Look at what we achieved with the Looking Glass dining room at Kipps Bay. I got that room designed within six weeks. Every vestige of that required probably over 100 hours that went into that room alone, just figuring out every vestige of just one room. Now multiply that times a 10 ,000 square foot home or a 15 ,000 square foot home. You really can't put a full value on what we bring to the table because so much of it simply does not make sense to those who are not interior designers. And so qualifying that with an hourly rate, as fair as it is, it's difficult for certain people to understand how we got to that number.

28:36So I find that a lot of our clients like knowing what's coming next and it can be frustrating for them. And when they're frustrated, you're going to become frustrated too. And the other thing too is every client is different. Some clients are incredibly decisive and some are very indecisive. So you could bill by the hour for one client and they're so decisive it took two hours and they're done. And then you can have another client that has you redo the thing 16 times only to come back to the original first proposal. But now you've lost all this time in putting these other efforts together. You should bill for that.

29:08But then they're like, well, why should I pay you for all 16 rounds? Well, your contract says that you would do that if you're indecisive. And that's the thing that I think sometimes people don't realize is that this is not Burger King where you can have it your way. The whole point of hiring an interior designer is for them to design for you. So if you hire an interior designer, let go. They really do have your best interests at heart. Yeah, it's like hiring a person to make a cake for you. You're sticking your finger in the batter, you're taste testing when it needs more salt. Well, duh, I know that it's not done yet.

29:47We're still mixing the batter. Get out of the kitchen. Just get out of the kitchen. But do they, Corey? I mean, every designer tells me, oh, clients are more difficult than ever today. They want to be more involved. They want to be more engaged. Heck, Ray Booth was telling me he had a client was using AI to second guess his white paint color choices. Yeah. Right. Making him out of his mind. I mean, clients seem to be involved in the most minute areas that, to your point, really just tire this person and let them go. I mean, certainly be involved in the early stages of understanding where this is going and conveying everything you want about what you dream of and what you want it to be.

30:28Right. But then. I think it's important to establish in the letter of agreement what the parameters are, right? We always go for the legal aspect. We are very clear with our LOA exactly what we will do and what the client will do in the process. And I am very quick to show the client what did we agree to in the LOA. This is what we have in writing. So you initialed this. These are your initials. So you said you wouldn't do this and you're doing that here. I'm not going to do this here because this is also in a breach of my contract with you. So you have to remind them of what you've agreed upon, but you have to have an agreement.

31:03I think that a lot of designers don't do a great job of covering themselves with a solid LOA. They don't want to hire an attorney. They don't want to get the legal counsel. They want to cut corners. And then they find themselves in hot water when the clients take the project in a different direction. So I do think it's important to have a really solid LOA in writing to protect yourself as a designer. We found that the biggest time sucks were where we did not enforce our contract. And sometimes we may get so caught up in just redoing things over and over and over again that we're not billing for all that, even though our LOA says that we should, because we feel somehow embarrassed.

31:43And I'm saying we as our firm, but just as an industry, we feel, oh my God, this was so easy for me to do this. Why should I build them for all that? Because you're living in a capitalist society. How do you think they became wealthy in the first place? They have worked hard to build their wealth. You as a business person to be thinking the same way and be building fairly for your gifts and your talents. On my masterclass, I called it the Mariah Carey principle. I said that Mariah is a gifted vocalist, but she's also a really gifted songwriter. And so she's paid a fee to write her songs. She's paid a fee to record the songs in the sound booth.

32:19And then anytime she performs the songs live in concert on a stage somewhere, she's paid a third time. So you're not paid just for writing the song. You're paid three different times for three different services. So for interior designers, a lot of times we ask for a flat fee, for example, for the design concept. You know, you've created the song, you've written it. Now you have to go out there and perform it. You have to get the contractors in place. You have to pull all the different workrooms into place, right? You have to install the house. Well, now you're performing live. You didn't just write the music visually as a designer.

32:58You didn't have to go out there and make it a physical, tangible reality. So why are you only charging a flat fee for just writing the music? You should be billing hourly for making the music to bring it to life, to perform live. That's the Mariah Carey principle. So that's why I found that we have found in the past, we're much better about these last few years, that in the past, that was a huge problem for us. Writing the music, but then not billing for performing live. And we've got to be compensated for all of it. So you mentioned masterclass. So, I mean, we should talk about the many multimedia brand extensions that you've been involved in.

33:37You seem to have been, Corey, very strategic and thoughtful about where you appear and how. This masterclass was quite a big deal. And I wonder just briefly how that came about and what it's meant. And let's talk about some of the other things that you're doing. Master Class came about by way of my first Rizzoli book, Design Remix. Someone had given one of the producers there a copy of the book. And the book contained all of these how-to takeaway sections, you know, how to pick the right paint color, how to choose the right window treatment draperies, the right white fixture, chandelier, whatever the case may be.

34:15And so they felt that that curriculum was right there in the book. And so they based the Master Class on the tenets of Design Remix. And we said yes. and it was an amazing experience. It was aired on Delta for like a year and a half. It was being viewed by between 7 and 10 million passengers a month. So it really expanded our brand to a bigger international audience, which has been really fun to kind of see take shape. It was great. And could you connect the dots with the awareness that created and what it brought for you? Absolutely. The second chapter of our new book, Design Reimagined, that home, the clients there, Jason and Heather, they saw me on Masterclass on the plane.

35:00And so they watched it. They enjoyed it. And they came together and said, this guy can help us pull this summer home that we're trying to work on in the Hamptons together. And they reached out. So that was a very easy translation straight from Masterclass to what proved to be a really massive 10 ,000 square foot renovation. So yeah, it definitely does pay for itself. I saw you on the plane. I saw you on the plane. Did you ever think that that would be a client referral mechanism? It's weird. Actually, I've been on planes and there'll be someone like across the aisle from me and they look over at me slowly, like try to connect the dots because they're watching the masterclass on their screen.

35:43and so I stopped like wearing glasses on the plane sometimes because I don't want people to recognize me because then they're like can I show you my home I want to show you on my cell phone these ideas I have and it's like okay I am trying to get to point b right now you know so uh it's fun though it's all harmless fun well that that's that's remarkable though that to have that kind of exposure and and one of the things that you've that you've built out uh recently is your youtube channel, which as you and I were talking about recently, you'd had a YouTube channel for ages, right? And hadn't really sort of done very much with it.

36:20And then suddenly. Yeah. I didn't do anything with it for, you know, 15 years. I just took out the name, you know, Corey Damon Jenkins. So it would be secure when YouTube became a thing, you know, like with all of our socials, just grab the name. So you have it, but I didn't use it, but YouTube has proven to be a very powerful streaming mechanism right now. It's the number one streaming mechanism outclassing Hulu or Disney Plus or any of the other cable channels. And so it's just been insane seeing the first season of Design Reimagined, our streaming show, just take off the way it has. Our new book, Design Reimagined, is the first coffee table book to come with a dedicated streaming series in the design world.

37:03So we've been able to kind of marry those things together. Season one covers the front cover story of the home there in Carnegie Hill, New York. Season two, we are in post-production on right now, and that's covering the second chapter in Design Reimagined. So there's a lot of content there, but I think we're just basically taking what we did with Masterclass and basically making it even more accessible with no paywall to the masses, and people are just really receiving it very well. I wonder, to your point about the interrelationship between the book and the YouTube, I wonder what that tells us about media today and what is working and what is not working as well as it once did or maybe is working in a different way.

37:53It's interesting because, and you acknowledge the great Jill Cohen in your book. Yes, love her. Right. And so, and I know she's a big fan of yours. And, you know, she often says, oh, Dennis, you know, these books, listen, people need to set their expectations. They're not going to be big money makers. In fact, they're going to be big costs. And right. And so many designers who I talk to say, yes, I'd love to just burn money by putting a book out. But it's not that way for you in the interrelationship of all of this. So tell me about that. No, our books have been very successful. The first book is now in its seventh reprint.

38:33And the second book, Design Reimagined, we were just told by our editors, has already entered its second printing, and it's only been out for a month. So long live print. Long live print. People still love books. They're not going away, thank God. and I do think there's something to be said for the love and the thirst for interior design. I think design is not dead. I do think that some television producers, especially on the cable level, and maybe even on the streaming level, they believe that design is dead because we don't have the great design shows like we used to. And what is now happening on these networks is this huge proliferation of real estate shows, love it or list it, shows that are just basically about real estate.

39:19And so people think, oh, well, design is dead because that's what's popular are the real estate shows. Well, that's not how it actually works. The analytics are what you're looking at. If you're only showing real estate shows and not showing beautiful high-end design shows, then people are going to give you the numbers based upon what you're showing. I think that the explosion of our Design Reimagined show on YouTube proves that people still want great interior design shows. They still want to see the actual ins and outs of it, and they don't want to be talked down to. They don't want to receive faux, false narratives about timelines or about costs.

39:57They can handle receiving actual, truthful information. This house took 18 months. This is a multimillion-dollar renovation. Maybe you can't afford to do all of this yourself, but here are some tidbits. Here are some ticks and tricks of the trade that you can duplicate in your own apartment, in your own home, at no cost. And here's how we did it. And people are loving that, which shows that design still has pull in the streaming world. So it's basically nice to be empowered to do what we want to do, not worry about being greenlit, not worry about powers that be trying to cut us down for time or to edit out things that don't make sense to them.

40:34We can tell our own story in a very organic and comprehensive way.

40:42we're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about laloy just this month laloy announced their newest collaboration with renowned interior designer leanne ford plus all new seasons of home textiles from amber lewis and chris loves julia you'll want to see all those online or in person and you can at high point market learn more and make your high point appointment at laloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And don't forget to follow at Laloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show.

41:23Well, and again, that comes back to this notion, just as you say, of you being able to control the media and how you put yourself out there. And you seem a very thoughtful steward of the Corey Damon Jenkins brand that you are building. And I'm wondering how you think about brand building. You've got some strategic partnerships, which we should talk about, and product lines. And you and I were together recently teasing about some of your new lighting that's coming in January. But you've got a lot of different things that you're doing. Tell me how you think about it and what it represents for the business.

42:04I think for our small business, we are just very interested in building out a firm that is successful. I take this very seriously. I am responsible for many mouths that need to be fed, families that depend on these employees and their salaries. So I take this very seriously as a steward of our, as the principal of our firm. So I'm always looking for ways to, as Steve Jobs would put it, play in the blue water. think of new things that have not been done. And so the YouTube channel is one way we've done that. Licensing is another big way. We've partnered recently with IHOLS to produce their first licensing partnership.

42:43And I'm looking forward to that coming out here in January abroad in Paris and then stateside for High Point Market in spring of next year. But they have, just as an example, I think it's 20-something percent of their revenue is here in the States. The rest is all abroad. They are massive outside the States. They're in 116 countries. So we're already talking in talks with those showroom owners, Dennis, and mapping out book signings, line shows, speaking engagements in places like Melbourne and Sydney, Australia, Morocco. We're talking about London. We're of course, Paris returning there. We've been invited to come back to Bangkok, Thailand, which I love.

43:28I love Bangkok so much. And we're going to basically bring our messaging to those countries. Design Reimagine, the book, has a ton of eye holes lighting throughout the book, just organically in our own client projects photographed. So to your point about strategically thinking about partnerships, I'd rather build a series of really great relationships with my favorite brands and just really flesh that out. And then all ships rise in the tide later, then spreading seeds everywhere to whoever will listen to us, whoever will sell to us. And then you just don't really have a comprehensive relationship package in place.

44:08So it's been really fun seeing it all come together organically with our relationship with Icolds. So Corey, just hearing you rattle off that upcoming travel schedule, I mean, I was getting exhausted just listening to it. And what I can't understand about you and that I want you to help me figure out is how on earth you're like a genuinely good guy. You're always so – Amy Astley writes in the book, you're always so gracious. She points out he's not looking around the room to see who else he could be talking to instead of me kind of thing. How do you stay as grounded as you seem to be? How do you time manage all of this?

45:02How do you keep some time to yourself to recharge? Like, are you drinking green shakes? Are you meditating? Do you have a private trainer, a spiritual guide? I mean, what is it, Corey? How do you do it? It's all of the above, truly. I have a great team. I have a great support system. You know, Adam has been a really huge support. That husband of yours. Yes. I know he's, yes. He's a big part of this, absolutely. But we are like an ant picking up a leaf a hundred times its weight. I do recognize that. Right now we're in Nashville. We just unveiled the Flower Magazine show house. Yes, if you're in Nashville, he's got another show house he's doing.

45:45Yes, he was just in Gibbs Bay. and he's also at the Flower Showhouse. We have the library here, the Flower Magazine Showhouse. And we, as you mentioned, we just unveiled the Looking Glass dining room in New York. We didn't plan that quite the same way because New York slipped its date and landed on top of this one. But now we're heading back to New York here in a few hours and we're going to do a change of clothes and then we're off to High Point Market to install what we're calling the House of Max. It's going to be a 3 ,000 square foot penthouse in the heart of Hancock and Moore's showroom. where we'll have several rooms, foyer, dining room, bedroom, all these different spaces, like a penthouse, featuring our collections with Hancock and Moore and Maitland Smith.

46:25And we'll do that for a few days and then we'll have a photo shoot and then we're off to this and that. See, again, this is already, I'm just, it's so overwhelming to even think of. But I can't take the credit 100%, Dennis. It's really, I have a great team. But you have to appear. You personally have to appear and you have to interact and make all of this happen. So what the heck are you doing? Is there some workout plan we could be following that you're saying? I mean, like, again, are you? I wish. Well, so, I mean, how do you center yourself? I think that I love what I do. I really do love it.

47:02I love design. It can't just be that, though. Come on. But truly, I'm obsessed with it. Like I said earlier in our podcast here today, I am an Aries. So the Aries are the leaders. They're the firstborn of the Zodiac. And so our characteristic is that we are obsessive compulsive about being in the lead, being in control, taking care of everyone else. We are the caregivers for the rest of the zodiac signs. So I think that really does kind of flesh out in my behalf. In my case, I really am all in with everything I do. And I also have to really give love to my design team. I think that there's something to be said for principals when we empower our teams to be out there with us, not hiding them, not hiding their talents, not putting them under a lampshade, but really taking them with you to high point mark and bringing them on stage when you are being interviewed, letting people interview them.

48:00When you empower your teammates to share the microphone with you, it takes nothing away from you as the lead vocalist, right? I also recognize the power of delegating, letting things go that I cannot handle, whether it be figuring out an LOA issue or marketing PR stuff, photo shoots. I delegate these things out to our team. And then just as I want our clients to do for us, Dennis, I let it go. I let the team do their thing. And that's how I'm able to get, I think, so much done. And in terms of maintaining the positivity, because this is a really challenging business, and particularly when you're working with a higher-end clientele and they're very demanding and have great expectations and all of that, how do you stay as positive as you seem to always be?

48:56I would say it's very much like what I wrote in the dedication of my book. Broken crayons, still color, delays do not mean denial. And imposter syndrome is a real thing that has to be managed. So I'm not immune to that. I'm not immune to having bad days and days where toxicity can kind of creep in. Imposter syndrome is something that I've had to always fight. I'm not going to sit here with you and be one of those designers that acts like, oh, everything's wonderful and I've never had challenges. It's like I got laid off. You know, so you're going to have nicks and cracks in the emotional enamel that is our self-esteem.

49:35I'm not immune to that. And that's okay. That's the whole point of design reimagined as a title, being okay with reimagining your place in life. My whole career is a testament to realizing that, okay, this didn't work. And now we're going to make a complete pivot, whether we want to or not. And then embracing that versus, you know, woe is me. Oh, life sucks. Well, life does suck. But life is also beautiful. It's all about your perspective. I always tell my staff, Dennis, I always hold up for them a piece of paper and I tear off one corner. And I say, what do you see here? And they say, okay, well, you tore off one corner.

50:11I say, okay, that's part of it. But you still have three good corners that are not torn. And I think that's the mindset that we as creatives, as designers have to remember is that life will always have a torn corner, but you still have three great corners to lean into. And if that's your perspective, you'll continue to thrive no matter what life will throw at you. So to that point, here you are. To most people from the outside would be looking, this guy's got it all. And to me, Corey, and I was thinking about this this morning, we're living in a time right now where a lot of people are feeling very differently about what we used to say was the American dream.

50:49i feel like if anybody is a representation of what you can achieve in america it is you and and i i was honestly sort of moved by it thinking about all of it and and i'm so happy for you and to my point about your optimism and and your positivity i feel like who deserves it more than you no one as far as I'm concerned. So I mean, but I wonder, where is it all going for you? What do you want to really have come out of all of this for you? I think what I want to have come out of it is a legacy that will be encouraging and empowering to others, holding open the doors of opportunity, like an elevator, if you will, and just keeping them open for others to pass through with a little less difficulty.

51:41I don't want to gatekeep. I don't want to put others through what I experienced at the hands of those interior designers 17 years ago when I launched my firm that pulled the ladder up after themselves and they climbed the wall of success and they left me down there with a ladder with no, you know, rungs, you know, I don't want to be that person. So I really want to leave a legacy that is encouraging to others. And you're right. I think social media and the press will paint certain pictures of us as those who are in the limelight, if you will. But as you mentioned, no one has it all. When I came out to my parents, they disowned me.

52:16All right? And I haven't had my family on either side except for one biological aunt all these years. So a person may say, oh, he's AD100. Oh, he's Elder Coralus. Oh, he's got this, he's got that. But I don't have my biological family. None of them were at my wedding except for one aunt. And trust me, I have a huge family. And none of them could get past you getting married to a man and being all that? I was raised in a very tough Christian conservative household. And when I took a stand for who I was, my entire family disowned me. I have nieces and nephews, dentists I couldn't even pick out in a crowd right now.

52:51I wouldn't even know what they even look like because they've not been given any access to me and I've been denied access to them. And here I am sharing this with, you know, hundreds of thousands of people or millions of people on your podcast. I am saying that from the angle of don't get too caught up in the Oscars and the Emmys that a designer may win. No one has it all. You may not be 80, 100, but you may have your health. You may not be elder core A-list, but you have your family, right? You may not have, you know, a television show, but you've got a thriving business. What are the three corners in your piece of paper that is not torn?

53:25What is that that you have? And then don't, I'm not going to get emotional here. Don't focus on - Now I'm all emotional, Corey. I mean, what do you mean? Like, look at the three corners that you have. Don't focus on the torn corner because all of us have a torn corner. You just may not know what that torn corner is. You know, Alexa Hampton is one of my best friends and she, I wrote about her in my new book. And we were talking about family. She said something to me that I actually quoted in Design Reimagined. She said that you have your biological family and then you have your logical family. And that really resonated with me because you may not have all the people that you were supposed to have in your orbit from a biological standpoint, but you can amass an army of advocates and loves and allies across the board and with other families that are maybe not tied to you by blood.

54:17And I have that. I have a great family of in-laws, the extended Wasserman clan. I have, of course, my staff. They're like my work family. Tons of friends, both in the industry and outside. I'm good, really. It's all good. It's as good as it's going to get in this lifetime, and I'm content with that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know it must have taken a lot to get there and to come to terms with all of that. And I'm sorry that you've had to deal with all of that. But as I say, it makes me admire all that you've accomplished even more, that you've had to struggle with all of that. And I feel so fortunate to be able to talk to you about all of this.

55:01And I'm grateful to you for sharing all of that. So thank you. The honor is mine. I was so excited to get the invitation to come back on the podcast because I've always enjoyed my time with you. And I just feel you just do such a great job, you know, really keeping your finger on the pulse of our industry. You know, it's like you're like the male Oprah, you know, of our field. You know, you're bringing in all these wonderful designers and different perspectives on the stage and helping, you know, shape and mold the minds of our industry for the future. And that's, I think, really, really important that we hold each other accountable as an industry by having very frank, candid conversations like this.

55:38So thank you for all that you're doing in business of home to kind of keep us on the same page.

55:46Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda I'm Dennis Scully Thanks again for listening And I'll see you next week