Cox London boldly walks the line between art and design

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Chris and Nicola Cox, the husband and wife duo behind the English lighting and furniture brand Cox London. The two met as young sculptors, fell in love, and eventually got married. But it wasn't until 2004 that their creative partnership evolved into a business. Since then, Cox London has grown dramatically. Today, Chris and Nikki lead a team of more than 100, and their studio is known for crafting bold, sculptural pieces that often take cues from nature, like a 12-foot-tall iron and brass chandelier shaped like an explosion of magnolia blossoms.

0:56I spoke with Chris and Nikki about the joys and challenges of working together as a couple, their efforts to support the next generation of artisans, and how they've navigated the transition from artists to entrepreneurs.

1:17This podcast is sponsored by Lalloy. For over 20 years, Lalloy has been a leader in the home textile industry by upholding the highest standards in craftsmanship and customer service. See the newest collections of Lalloy Rugs, Pillows, and Wall Art at Vegas Market this summer from July 27th through the 31st. Showroom appointments are highly recommended and you can make yours today at LalloyRugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-Y Rugs.com. And don't forget to follow at Lalloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now, on with the show. Rather than jumping into the whole building the business side of things first, I wanted to go back because both of you come from different geographical locations, obviously, but also a slightly different upbringing and thinking about things.

2:13Nikki, I want to start with you and hear a little bit about where you grew up and some of the things that occupied you in your youth. So I grew up in New Zealand, in the North Island. So my mother, she travelled in the 1950s to Europe by sea. And in those days, the way they recorded their trips was on slide format. So she had the most amazing collection of carousels of slides of all these incredible places that she'd visited. And our Sunday evening, when I was a child, was pancakes and mum's slideshow. Is that right? Settle in, kids. Mom's bringing out the slides of her travel adventures. And I was absolutely in awe of everything I was seeing on these slides.

3:00You know, the architecture, the art, you know, the different cultures, the history. And then sort of fast forward into my teens. I was very into British culture. So the first opportunity I had to get on my way and get on an airplane and come over here, I did. So that's over 30 years ago now, 30 years plus. So I was quite young. Well, and was there something in my notes, Nikki, about you managing rock bands? Well, I wasn't managing them, but I did work for them. Yeah, I worked in the music business. One of the first jobs I picked up just through the network was working for a location catering company that cooked for the bands and the crew.

3:46and they took care of dressing rooms and riders and all that sort of thing. So that was my first job in the UK. And I travelled around Europe with bands for five years. It was free travel and I got paid to work. And I was working with icons like the Rolling Stones and Genesis and ZZ Top. Really? Yeah. So it was great fun, I have to say, great fun. But living in a suitcase permanently on a crew bus, that gets weary. But on the way, I mean, I had a boyfriend at the time who I used to discuss my sort of hopes and dreams with him, obviously. And he encouraged me to go to art school because I really wanted to sort of pick up my creativity again and do something creative.

4:37So that's how I kind of made that transition. And that, funny enough, is where the two of you meet, yes? Yes. So the first art school I went to was Camberwell College of Arts, which was a really amazing college in London. And then I went on to do my degree where I met Chris at Wimbledon School of Art doing fine art sculpture. So we were both on the same degree in the same year. She's touring with the Rolling Stones. Can you top this, Chris? I mean, what have you got for us? I really can't. I really can't. But one of my favorite, favorite bands growing up was The Cure, and she toured with them as well.

5:18So we had an immediate affinity and an immediate conversation about that when we met. Oh, I can understand. One of my favorite bands as well. So let's talk about where you grew up, Chris, and the antiques that you were surrounded by and the scene. Sure. Sure. I grew up 100 miles exactly north of London in a market town, Lincolnshire, the southern tip of Lincolnshire, a market town called Stamford. And it was a very early town that had sort of Roman elements, Georgian elements, medieval. And we grew up in a series of houses that my father and mother restored. So I lived in about six or seven houses between the age of four and 17, 18.

6:02And what was driving that? Why were you moving around so much? They treated their homes like antiques, actually. Restore them, perhaps sell them on. And they loved discovering old elements being covered up in the 60s and 70s. So we moved and we always dealt from home. My parents always dealt in antiques from home. So business was at home. and my grandfather had dealt since the 50s. My grandmother had dealt in jewelry. He dealt in a wonderful array, a broad spectrum of rare and unique antiques. And he set the tone for the whole family because then my father came into the business 16, 17. He is still dealing today, age 80.

6:44Amazing. My mother was working for her cousin, David, who was also a dealer. and that's where they met because that was one of my dad's calls near cambridge here and then my father's side were all in the trade so and my brother and i sort of grew up against that backdrop so i you know i i felt i was very much um he's growing up in a creative family and there was nothing you know i was never going to step outside of that was the obvious maneuver for me yeah well so was there what was it just naturally assumed you were going to get into the antiques business or some aspect of the business? Well, it's my uncle.

7:20He used to work at the back of my grandma and granddad's shop. He had a little studio there. And I remember him drawing. He drew and composed these collages with old dominoes, playing cards, magnifying glasses, bits of carving, bits of stone, marble, all this intrigue. I remember him drawing when I was eight or nine thinking or saying, wow, that's incredible. and an auntie saying, well, perhaps you'll go to art school like your Uncle Ralphie did. And from that moment, it was set in stone. Yes, that's what I'm going to do. So I was very lucky. They all sounded so engaged. There was often dealers around the table having tea, coffee, breakfast, lunch, because we dealt from home.

8:01So I heard the trade conversation from a very early age, and it was intriguing. They were talking about these legendary dealers in London, the antique sales room, you know, what was being sold, what was interesting, whose house had been featured in the most recent interiors magazines. So, yeah, I couldn't help but kind of it all went in by osmosis. And our house was always being decorated or the showroom being reshifted around, new stock coming in. And it wasn't unusual for a piece of furniture to be on the kitchen table being stripped or picked to uncover a patina or a decoration that had been painted there 100 years before.

8:44Paint stripper, wire wool, on the kitchen table, everybody getting involved. And you heard the excitement as well, the exhilaration of, look, look, the original paints underneath. So I heard this from a really, really, really young age. Yeah. So you meet up at school. I assume you come to like one another quite a bit. And then you get out of school and it's not as if you jump into this business that we're going to talk about because it seems like it was years of apprenticing and learning and doing other things. So tell me a little bit about that. When I first finished, I decided to go home for a year and just kind of recalibrate.

9:28And Chris joined me a year later out in New Zealand. So we both spent some time out there and we had a really lovely lifestyle. I was working for a glass artist up in the New Zealand hills called Ann Robinson, wonderful glass artist making lost wax castings and I worked in a in a craft gallery and I also worked in a foundry in a bronze foundry working making art for other artists so Chris of course came out on a on a visa and instantly sort of said well you know where's the obvious place for me to head for you know to look for work and that was local antique dealers. Well so what was that like chris i couldn't have got luckier i think the first two or three shops up parnell rise as i walked up said no no vacancies but john stevens who is still i count as a great friend today was running a fine showroom of antiques he does it in a much bigger way now but this this fantastic ramshackle traditional shop with an awning over the front full of antiques and um he said uh well, what can you do?

10:44Can you drive? And I said, yes, I can. He said, and what do you bring to the party? And I said, well, I'm from an antique dealing family. He said, oh, so you can wax furniture then? They said, yes. And like in true Kiwi fashion, you know, they open their door wide open and say, give it a go. Come on, let's do it. So immediately I was taking furniture around to restorers. I was taking mirrors to clients, hanging them up. I was taking small bits home to restore and clean up. And when he was out, I'd run the shop. And it was just a great experience to be as far away as I could be from home, but doing something that I understood and felt at home with.

11:29So yeah, part of my, I'd already spent a year restoring antiques in London, getting my money together to go and get this gal and bring her home. So was that the idea? It was like, okay, all right, I'll come over to New Zealand for a while. But really, I'm bringing you home at the end of all of this? I don't know. I think when you're young, you don't make too many plans. I knew I had to get out and see her and certainly wanted to experience where Nikki lived. So we worked there for, I think, six, seven months. and then at that point started making plans to to go home my visa was up we sailed for a couple of months without a visa I think I thought I may never get back into New Zealand um so left under a shadow under that shadow but um but but Nikki was more than ready I think I think I hope I didn't drag her back to to town you know back to London you can tell us you can tell us how you were really But Chris was really innovative and they have this thing called an inorganic collection where we were living and people would just put out their, you know, sort of scrap metal or bikes or furniture or whatever and the council would come and collect it.

12:40But before the council comes along and collects it, so people go around and sort of pick out interesting bits and Chris would pick up all of the scrap metal and then bring it back to our little house that we had. and we'd made a little studio underneath the house with dirt floors and just the supporting beams of the house. And he'd incidentally flown over from England to see me in New Zealand with his welding kit over his shoulder. So he was ready. Because heaven forbid he goes anywhere without that, without his welding kit. Yeah, you never know when he's going to find some scrap metal on the road and apparently he did.

13:19And he made these beautiful animals, lots of animalia, birds, monkeys, lizards. And then John started selling them for him out of the antique shop, which was really super. Were you impressed with Chris's work? Were you thinking, wow, this guy's talented? I was. Well, I've always known, you know, he's a true talent, a true artist. You know, he's always in that zone, permanently in that zone. So I'm in awe of that, yeah. So, okay, so we finally come to some kind of an agreement about returning home to the UK or home for Chris and soon to be home for you. Yeah, it took us a little while to find a place to live where we had a proper studio, but there was always some kind of makeshift space.

14:11And we both went off, you know, looking for creative careers, creative jobs. I found work in a fine art bronze foundry in London, in Limehouse. And Chris was working for a metalwork restorer. I actually got my original role back. So I'd worked for them for that year when I was getting my cash together to go to New Zealand. And they welcomed me back. I mean, these guys are my London family and saviors, really, because they taught me metalworking skills that I didn't have from school or art school. and very quickly I could silver solder, soft solder, polish metal, turn on a lathe, drill and tap.

14:51All of these mechanisms, all of these methods and traditional techniques that we still use today. So that really, really informs so much of what we do today. So shall we tell the story of working in the garage at home and concerning neighbors and smoke appearing and all of that? tell me tell me you know nikki nikki actually jumped ship from her her job in 2003 2004 2002 2002 okay so it's 2003 that i joined her almost a year later but i used to come home and find nikki pouring bronze off her off one knee highly inappropriate it's just so dangerous and explain for people what pouring bronze at home even entails so people get the full So our first house in 2000, which we felt incredibly lucky to have pulled our funds and got a small deposit together for a house in Tottenham in North London, had a garage at the back, a concrete floor and tilt slab concrete sides.

15:54So reasonably fireproof, safe for the wooden roof. And we figured since you could get two cars in there, we wouldn't put cars in there. we would set up a bronze foundry, which meant a kiln to burn out wax, mold making facility, which generally happened in the house. Actually, we had to melt the bronze outside in the garage at very high temperatures. But one night, Nikki, she'd set the kiln to burn out the wax in the early hours of the morning, three, four, five o 'clock, because there was quite a plume of smoke that came out of the garage. All four corners, in fact, that seemed to be where the The air gaps were.

16:32But nobody knew until one night it just triggered a little bit early, sort of pub closing time, and we had these two guys knocking on all the front doors saying there's a shed on fire at the back of the house, which we knew was not on fire. It was just the plumes of steam and smoke that came from the wax. So not a fire threat. Well, not as far as we were concerned. Everything's fine, we said. Everything's fine. We're artists. We're artists, we're artists, and we're just burning out waxes. So thankfully they didn't call the fire brigade. And immediately Nikki got on the case the next day and we started looking for a workshop away from home.

17:13We've got to find a proper workshop. Yeah, this isn't going to work long term. It's too much to ask that somebody would be so forgiving the next time around. But what was amazing, I think maybe because they'd had one or two pints of beer, that they just said, oh, I see, I see, you're an artist, that's fine. Yeah, no problem. Oh, so you're just, you know, burning wax. Oh, okay, sure. So you set off to find proper space and skipping ahead, I mean, marriage and properly setting up the business in, what was that, 2005? 2004 we got married and we were properly sort of set up by then in a new studio which was not too far from where we were but it was a small studio suitable for about sort of four people.

18:05We'd taken on our first couple of employees who were actually friends from art school and they were working for us full time and helping us make our pieces and doing lots of restoration. We used to do a lot of lighting restoration for the trade, so antique metalware. And we would drive around London, all of the antique shops around the Kings Road and up and down the Fulham Road and Lily Road, picking up work and then coming back with a full van load of work that would keep everybody going for the next few weeks. And was it all just sort of word of mouth that everybody knew of you and the services that you could provide?

18:48I think our time in the industry, working Nikki for Bronze Foundries, where she met a plethora of artists, local London artists, and made friends with someone. Some of them were still great friends with today. Nikki was making their work. Often they wouldn't want it necessarily casting in bronze, but they needed a mold making because they couldn't do it themselves. and you know my family being dealers would also had already for several years been giving us anything they thought we could restore it just grew with more clients friends of friends of friends yeah and people did ring us up or when you're in an area with nine or ten dealers on the same street or even in the same building people would say hey i've seen you pick up stuff for him and her uh can i give you something too so it built i mean we had enough work for seven days a week.

19:36And was this a wonderfully profitable business? Were you charging good money and making a nice living from this? We were making a comfortable living. Our expectations were not high. Our overheads were pretty low. We made it work and we managed to save up enough money for a really good deposit on our first workshop, which we purchased the freehold of and that really, that was a game changer for us. Having an industrial unit on an industrial estate with far more space than we could have ever imagined we would ever fill, but seven workshops later. Yes, exactly. You outgrew that pretty quickly. So originally getting that with the intention of what were you imagining the business would scale up to at the time it was 2007 wasn't it and we'd already started selling some of our own pieces but we were still making work for artists and we're still restoring for antique dealers and making things up for interior designers so all of those revenue streams were sort of coming in at the same time i guess at some point not long after that we had to decide and steer the business in the direction that we wanted it to go in and i we both knew we wanted to make our own designs more than anything It was just having an eye on the finances and understanding if that was viable, I guess.

21:02Chris had designed our first two or three pieces of lighting, sort of probably around 2004 to 2005. And part of the sort of being the runner, going around and picking up the antiques, he would also sort of carefully hang one of these pieces in the back of the van and wait for somebody to show some interest in it. And often they would sell. So that was really the beginning of that journey, you know, thinking actually um we could really turn you know pivot the business much more towards that and um but just by process of elimination really we um we went more and more in that direction so more and more hoping to make your own work and and and chris said chris is quite a good quite a good salesperson right so he's oh this light this light here that he's oh you know that's just something that I'm working on.

21:53Oh, you wouldn't be interested in that. No, no, no. Oh, show it to you. I mean, I can show it to you. I mean, I can hang it up and use it. Right. You could have been on the road with me. You've got it pat down. I can see the whole little patter going. Yeah. So you knew, but you knew there was interest for your work, but the business had been built on all this restoration and working for all these other people. Which informed what we did, Dennis, in a big way. So not just reluctant to give it up as a revenue stream, but as inspiration. So many amazing items. Really by then, we'd taken apart 400 years worth of metalwork design for 10 years between 97 and 2007.

22:37So we're kind of well informed about color and form mechanisms, decorative mechanisms, always excited us. So we were becoming designers by default, two sculptors, two fine art sculptors becoming designers, nurturing craftspeople, just a whole melting pot of everything that had been going on for 10 years or more. Tell me more about that transition. So sculptors becoming designers, what did that mean? What was that transition? Well, it was a really difficult question that we asked ourselves all the time and we could never kind of pinpoint, you know, when did we, where was the line between artist and designer?

23:22Because we didn't train as designers. We didn't feel that we had the right to call ourselves designers. But then when you are designing functional art, you know, you tend to sort of sit in your own camp, you know, where you came from. And that was the art world, really. So I guess we think of ourselves more as artists, creatives, than we do as designers of, if you like. I think it's nice to relax about it and just say what we do is informed by everything we've learned. It's a result of lots of different processes, ideas and thoughts. And I hope that that makes what we do a unique offering. You know, it's something, it's an amalg of different worlds.

24:07So let's tell people what Cox is today and how you describe it. And let's tell people how big, it's big business. Let's talk about the great many people that work with you. And as you say, you've got quite a large workshop and everything else. So today we have a team of over 100 and we've kind of blossomed into that over the last year. We got to about 50 and then there was a shift in the needs because when you take on that many artisans, nearly everyone was an artisan and there was just Chris and myself running the business and wearing all of the various hats that you need, you know, from HR to IT to finance, you know, and trying to sort of hold it all together.

24:53But you get to a certain point where you say, actually, I can't do all of these things total justice. And plus, we really, really wanted to get back into our own personal creativity for the business, because that's our, I think that's the best sort of value that we can offer Cox London as well as our creative vision. So we really, really believe in design with a soul and supporting heritage crafts and makers and get a lot out of seeing people come into our studios and workshops and bringing their creativity with them and sharing their knowledge. you learn from each other and it also helps inform other things that we do in our work as well with these you know blacksmithing for example was not a skill that Chris or I had but when we started employing blacksmiths you know we discovered a new channel for us to sort of express our ideas so that's what it's really about it's it still has that sort of the workshops still have that almost art school environment, you know, where there's a lot of collaboration within the studios, which is our happy place.

26:16But like Nikki says, we needed supporting roles for all of those makers and to take the pressure off us. And it's incredible how much it does take to run a team as it grows. So operationally, financially, human resources, sales team, marketing, managing, it makes up the numbers quite quickly as you grow with your output, making and manufacturing, you really need to build those teams around you. And that was a journey we went on, I guess, from, well, probably 2010 to now, the last 15 years, a steady road of learning about how to run a business. Well, and I'm so glad you put it that way, Because that's really what I want to hear from both of you is how you learned, how you figured out how to scale this business to such a size that it is today.

27:11We were talking recently about what a challenge scaling a business like this is. Nikki, you made the great point about how training played such a huge role and really being able to teach people not only how to make the things that you need to make, but also how to work within this environment and hopefully help others to learn and develop as well. But I'm curious how you learned to figure out where did you even start with the process? I think we both realized that we got to a certain point where we were, you know, almost at sort of burnout situation. And so we took on a business coach who gave us some methods and ways of thinking, introduced us to a lot of ideas, books to read.

28:00and that really sort of steadied our nerve actually because I think something we should have done in the earlier days was ask for more advice, more help, et cetera. But being sort of artists, you tend to think you're going to forge your own path and reinvent the wheel every time. So that really, really helped me. I really quite enjoy learning about all of those different sides of the business as well. And were you largely wearing the hat, one of the many hats you were wearing, apparently, Nikki, at the time? Were you largely the business operation side of things? Yes, I was, yeah. For all of my sort of lack of knowledge and experience, I was patching it together.

28:47But the very first thing that our coach taught us was that, you know, systems will set you free. So make sure you choose the right ones. And that's difficult in itself. It's difficult because you don't imagine that you're going to grow to a certain... We haven't come at our business from that point of view, that we're going to grow our business to this scale and then sell it on. There's no plan like that. It's a legacy for us. This is our life. and we will carry on doing it well into our 80s or 90s or whatever health will permit.

29:28We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Leloy. This spring, Leloy launched two exciting collaborations. Discover bold, modern rugs and pillows from their new collection with Jeremiah Brent. And don't miss the latest season of Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines. Fresh designs you'll love. Explore both at laloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And follow at laloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now, back to the show.

30:06So was there a magical book that this coach recommended or was there some eye-opening moment? The first book she introduced us to was The E-Myth. It takes a sort of a narrative of a sole trader who's a great technician, a great individual with individual skills, but they've got a good idea. But how do they carry on doing that thing incredibly well, but also take on employees, afford premises? and then when the demand gets to that sort of level where you're struggling against capacity, you have to make a decision. Do I want to stay here where I am now or have I got the energy or the will to really take it forward and see where it takes us?

31:00I think we've just decided to be open-minded and follow that path, take opportunities as I come along and explore them not all of them are the right ones and just be willing to sort of let things go and try something else and I think we've I think that's been our our driver really hasn't it Chris yeah I think like from I guess formalizing your your artisanal business it's a strange notion for for two two artists I remember when friends asked me we'd opened our first showroom in ebree street it'd been 2017 and they said how's work at the moment what are you doing i said well i'm i'm building a sales team and they all laughed all of my artist friends all of my creative friends laughed and said you're doing what i said i know right um what do i know about it it was that that was a challenge for us because we'd forever been able to place makers artists craftspeople in our business because we spoke the same language we always had and we we could place uh where their skills would be useful we could latch on to different processes different experiences and say if they could do that they could do this as well and you know you could very easily see them in your business um so that was once people started finding us and knocking on our door more and more it was easy to to to say yes to people and take people on as makers but the sales team you know apart from knowing what we make, knowing how we make it, knowing why we make it.

32:37That's our best selling tactic. But when it comes to the system of selling and keeping data, being public facing, client facing all the time, that wasn't something that we were adept at or necessarily wanted to do. That's one such challenge of building the team that I remember very well. And it's fairly recent. It's just seven or eight years ago. That you really put a team in place to go out and tell the story of what you're doing and call on designers and even come to America. Yeah, and opened our first showroom as well. I mean, we had had a foray into America for 10 years, actually. We sold through a fantastic designer in LA, and that taught us a lot as well.