Dan Fink takes design seriously

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Dan Fink. Dan's career began in Silicon Valley. After graduating from Stanford, working as a personal assistant for a tech executive led to design projects, which led to more design projects. Since officially starting his firm in 2010, Dan has been one of the industry's rising stars, meticulously executing high-profile work across the country and appearing on best-of lists like the AD100. I spoke with Dan about why he shies away from social media, the two qualities he looks for when hiring an employee, and why the best advice to young designers is just say yes.

1:05This podcast is proudly sponsored by John Rosselli and Associates, celebrating 75 years of design excellence and artisanal inspiration. For decades, John Rosselli has been a trusted name in the design world, representing premier brands known for their craftsmanship and timeless style. With a commitment to bespoke customization and exceptional service, John Roselli helps designers bring their creative visions to life. Visit JohnRoselli.com or step into one of their showrooms in the D &D building, the Dakota, the Washington Design Center, or the Mart to experience their legacy firsthand. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows, and wall art.

1:52Lalloy revealed their latest designer collaboration with Leanne Ford at High Point Market this fall. See those beautifully handcrafted rugs and pillows at their site, along with new seasons from Amber Lewis, Chris Loves Julia, and Bridget Romanek. Learn more at lalloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs dot com. And don't forget to follow at Lalloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. duck. And now, on with the show. Growing up in New York, one always hears the joke, how do you get to Carnegie Hall, right? And it's always practice, ba-dum-boom, with a little drum tone in the background. But for you, I mean, how on earth did you get to Carnegie Hall, Dan?

2:38You know, I grew up in northern New Jersey, and all the arts were just, you know, everything to me as a kid. It was just I loved theater, I loved music, singing was really important. My grandmother was an artist and that really sort of grew. And then in time, I trained classically and then I got involved in choral music. And I can't say I really mastered classical singing, but I loved the training and I loved how it sort of took my voice to another place. And it allowed me to sing music that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to sing. And so, I think I've just always been sort of drawn to the sort of elegance, if you will.

3:23I mean, there really is nothing kind of more fine or elegant than a chamber chorale in perfect harmony. It's just this, I mean, it really is a heavenly thing. And I was really, I loved theater. I still love theater. And I love the sort of raw kind of emotion of that. But I also really, really love something that is really sort of finally, finally done. It takes it to a different kind of transcendent place, which I'm very drawn to. And as you suggest, you seem to want to dive deeper into things and discover more of their essence and also some of the greater discipline that is beneath the surface, it seems, in everything that you have taken on.

4:15I think getting to a deeper sense of why, a deeper sense of what's going on, a deeper sense of, yeah, sort of foundational thinking in sort of what makes it great is very appealing to me beyond just the simple fact that it is. Yeah, that's the sort of the geek in me, I guess. I like to study. And I've always been both a student and an artist. And I think, you know, trying to sort of continually ask those questions and find ways that you can understand better, I think, has informed many things in my life. It informs my cooking, it informs my singing, and it informs my design work. You go off to Stanford, if I recall, and are on a very different path in terms of your studies.

5:04Tell us about that and when, I guess, a pretty major turn takes place for you. It's funny, on the topic of music, when I went to the Admit weekend at Stanford, among all the things that just were so mind-blowingly wonderful about it, including the palm trees coming from New Jersey. But I didn't study music. No. My freshman year, I took a seminar in bioethics. And I was really enchanted by the curriculum and the professor who was sort of using bioethics and these sort of questions of biotechnology to ask pretty big, profound questions about human life, what it means to be human, the role that technology plays as we become more and more powerful and technology becomes more and more powerful.

6:03What choices would be before us? And this was, you know, 20 years ago. And so there was lots, you know, that was emerging, that was, you know, raising questions about, you know, about genetic engineering and reproduction and all kinds of things. And it was just a very, really, really profound for a young person stepping out into the world to sort of hear those questions. And I grew up in a pretty secular household. And I don't know, in hindsight, I wonder if in some ways it was sort of an introduction to philosophy or even bringing in a little bit of the sort of bigger kind of questions about the meaning of life and the meaning of being human that I was just really drawn to.

6:48And so, I followed that interest and I studied in that program, in the human biology program, all four years. but when it came time to graduate, unsure of what I would actually do or be, I took a job with a tech entrepreneur, as many of us did at that time, not working in a tech role but as an assistant wearing many hats. One of the big things that I was doing quite a lot of was organizing these retreats that he would want to host around the world. And it was my job to find the venue and to organize and orchestrate all of the attendees getting to the venue and then planning all of the events and logistics and all the fun stuff and the meetings and all of that around it.

7:41And I innately started treating them as almost like small design projects. I would find the house, which usually, you know, left something to be desired. It was a, you know, one day perhaps a very sort of, you know, special house on the water and, you know, Cape Town or something like that. But it would need, you know, in terms of its, you know, styling, it was pretty flat. So, I found myself, you know, sort of styling it and, you know, just sort of setting it up in a way that I wanted, you know, the guests to have a memorable and kind of magical experience. And this was sort of informed because along the way in young adulthood, I found myself just really intuitively spending time in the bookstores, in the design and architecture section, pouring over them, looking at the rooms, looking at the pictures.

8:31And this was something that I just was so interested in and curious about and sort of training my mind and eye to. And then I was getting to sort of play a little bit with some of these work assignments. And then one day, my boss needed a designer really for a project, asked me to hire somebody, and I volunteered. And fortunately, he said yes. And in a lightning round, I threw it together, I shopped, I found things that needed to be done quite quickly. So, I put it all together. and nervous as can be not knowing what I was doing, but just going totally on instinct and trying to assemble something that I thought perhaps he would like.

9:22And then when he came, he sort of took a look, looked around and put a big smile on his face and said, I like it, well done. And next thing I knew, his peers had come, saw what I had done and were calling me and many of whom were sort of young founders, tech entrepreneurs who would suddenly come into wealth and were doing their first houses. And next thing I knew, I had a fledgling design business. And when was this exactly? And where was tech in these days? So where were we in all of this? This was in about 2010, 2009, 2010. social media was just sort of getting its footing. Of course, it had been around for a bit, but it was just sort of getting its footing.

10:10And it was, you know, incredibly fertile, you know, soil for me to start a business, to learn to, through trial and error and practice and sort of willingness to sort of jump into different opportunities. I got to really start to experiment with design, my own skills. And at that point, it could have fizzled, but it didn't. And it was because there was something in it that I just loved so much. I just enjoyed the subject of it. I enjoyed working with the people. I enjoyed all the challenges. It sort of was endlessly fascinating and endlessly fun. And what were the young tech entrepreneurs, to your point, that had just come into large sums of money?

10:53What were they like as clients? And did they want a lot of tech in their homes themselves? Or were they moving in the opposite direction and didn't want all of that? Oh, gosh. I think, firstly, I think they felt really comfortable with me because, you know, we had even tangentially worked together for over a number of years. And I somehow spoke the language and I thought about things in a similar way. I kind of understood how they would want information presented or ideas presented. and so you know I found you know that they were comfortable with me in a way that perhaps they weren't or you know wouldn't have been with a more established designer I think they were figuring things out I was figuring things out we were going on sort of um you know going on instinct and it was you know it was a lot of fun but but no to your question about technology um I can say that generally everything was intended to be kept pretty low tech.

11:55And that's still true to this day to any of our clients who are in tech, I would say, pretty universally they sort of opt for lower tech options. Well, it's interesting because when I talk to particularly San Francisco-based designers, for example, Recently, we were having a discussion about why don't we see more of these San Francisco projects? And a lot of designers said, well, I'll tell you why you don't see them, because everyone makes a sign in NDA, and everyone's very private, and they don't want their life out there in the way that we see so many people's lives on social media and everything.

12:36The people who actually created so much of that technology, they tend to feel just the opposite about how they want to share their lives. And I don't know if you encountered that with a lot of the early tech clients that you dealt with. Yeah, certainly. You know, I think it's a, you know, it's a private, it's a world that values privacy. It's a world that sort of isn't interested in sort of syndicating, I think, sort of aspects of their lives or their wealth. You know, they really are happy to sort of keep it for themselves. And in a lot of ways, I think, you know, I mean, there's a point of view that it's about sort of a security of a kind of privacy.

13:17I think it is about a kind of inherent modesty that is a part of the culture there, you know, keeping things down to earth, you know, while they may be, you know, rocketing into the sky. I think in terms of their family lives, their values, how they like to live, I think it's important to stay with their feet on the ground. I think they feel that. And that was felt very much in the early days. And I still think it's very much a part of the culture there. And did that have a big impact on how you came to feel about technology? And even because I know you have some strong feelings there, Dan, about social media in particular.

13:58But I mean, did that shape how you thought about it or certainly inform it, if not shape it? I can't say that it informed my feeling on technology directly, except to say, you know, when you're sort of around sort of the people who are forming these things, you know, it sort of puts it into a different perspective. It doesn't seem as sort of omnipotent, you know, it sort of seems like, you know, a business, you know, more than something that I think many people have come to feel, not just social media, but just technology in general is something that is, you know, plays a sort of, you know, such a central role in people's lives.

14:39And, you know, I'm old enough that I lived in a time where we, you know, didn't have many of these things and young enough where I'm in a transitional point where it's obviously a huge part of my life and the times and the future. So, you know, I don't think that there's any sort of one rule, but I do try to sort of just in, and again, this is just my natural instinct is to allow technology to play a role in my life that is really, you know, valuable where it's valuable and additive, but not where it's not. You know, it's hard. I sort of earlier was talking about, you know, what it feels like to be in a show or singing in the chorus, you know, people coming together.

15:21Those are feelings that are just so transcendent that, you know, those are the experiences, you know, that I seek and feel good about with people, which I'm not going to find on my phone, at least. And social media doesn't have that same energy or that same emotional connection and impact for you? Not for me. Not for me. And I don't get the sense that it's a big business tool for you in terms of driving clients or just a place where you're spending a lot of time. Yeah. I mean, I think time is a zero-sum game. It is, you know, if you're spending it doing one thing, you're not spending it doing something else.

15:59And so I've just always felt like my time is best spent focusing on my clients, my team, becoming a better designer through practice and through focus, by observing the world around me, by being present in the world around me. And it's not just, you know, the sort of act of sort of creating a video or creating something which is distracting. It just is sort of takes you sort of out of the moment and makes you think about that. But it's all the other interaction that's sort of required in it forces you to sort of be, you know, engaging with it, you know, quite a lot. And certainly people have used it to advance or even start careers or to really grow careers.

16:46And I think perhaps for those people with the right sort of chemistry with it and the right focus, it's been really, really meaningful. But I wonder if those people are more at the margin and that for everybody, it's worth the amount of time that is taking them away from the world around them. I am so, so, so happy with the projects that we have, the clients that we have, the team that we have. And I think, you know, and everybody can set their sights on whatever they're setting their sights to. But, you know, I have a sort of a medium sized studio about 15 people. And, you know, we have lots of work to do.

17:33I don't need such a big reach. I don't need to have that many people to be interested and excited by what I'm doing to be able to maintain, grow, and thrive in my business. And I find that really nurturing the relationships that I have with clients and with everybody in my ecosystem has brought it to the place that it is. And it's been 15 years and I am just sort of amazed at how quickly we've gotten to where we've gotten to and the nature of things that we're getting to do. And to me, the sphere of my world is big enough.

18:25We're taking a quick break to remind you about Lalloy. It's been quite a year for the design industry, that's why it's more important than ever to have partners you can trust to help you get the job done. Lolloy is known in the design community for its commitment to craft and to its trade partners. Lolloy's dedicated personalized sales representatives are here to help for years to come. Learn more at lolloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And don't forget to follow at Lalloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now, back to the show.

19:05So let's come back and let's talk about the evolution of your firm. So you suddenly find that, oh my goodness, I've got clients who want the work that I'm doing. And originally, it's it's these these young tech entrepreneurs and you and you do some projects there but then it it it starts to widen and you and you realize this this really is a path for you so tell me about tell me about that that moment where you're realizing okay here here we here we go and it's not just going to be me anymore but i can build a firm around this it happened very organically it really happened very naturally. Over time, the nature of the projects kept growing, kept becoming more interesting.

19:51They were always very varied, I think. And that's maybe a virtue of the kinds of people that we were working for. But I learned a lot really, really fast. And I quickly realized that to sort of bring to life a fuller, more complete vision for an assignment, I really wanted to not just do the decorating, but to do the architecture too. And so, I started bringing on architects onto the team and really developing my own skills in interior architecture. And slowly over the years, the nature of the projects just continued to get stronger and elevate and just continued to grow. And I think a big part of my ability to sort of attract those kinds of clients was that I was sort of carrying forward a lot of the sort of ethos, if you will, that I had developed for my tech years.

20:53And a lot of that had to do with the way in which I approached projects and approached client service. And I really have always viewed it from the very beginning as a client services business. And so it was really important to me that the not only that the design would be great, but that the sort of experience of getting there, of getting to the final result was one that everybody felt really good about, especially the clients. And so, I was putting a lot of attention and a lot of effort into how we would communicate, present materials, handle our billing, handle our proposals, and then of course, ultimately deliver on an installation that was by and large in line with the budget that we had established from the beginning and the schedule that we had set out from the beginning.

21:43And really following through on those expectations that we had been a part of establishing proved to not only make it a much more gratifying experience for everyone, but it was smart business because they had a good experience. And the next thing I knew, they were referring me to friends. who not only, you know, they would not only sort of see the work and say, oh, this looks great. But then, you know, the client would say yes, and it was really well run. And I think that that has been a distinguishing quality that's allowed me to sort of work on some amazing projects and for some really exceptional people.

22:22And do you think that that has been your, how should we refer to it, Dan, your sort of buttoned up nature? Do you think that that has Ben, because I think that that is something that has no doubt served you well in all of the various life exploration episodes that you've had. I think you seem like you're no doubt a good student and you know how to sort of organize thoughts and structure. And what many people don't often appreciate is how much organization goes into pulling a design project together and presenting it to your client and then also reassuring your client that the financial side of the operation is being run with great equal efficiency.

23:10Right? Yeah. design work is serious work. It is. It is, you know, and I think sometimes we don't sort of treat it with the right full level of respect that I think it really deserves. You're dealing with a lot of money for people. It's a big, you know, a big spend that isn't financed, you know, and you don't get, they don't get a lot of opportunities to practice and they sort of, you know, and pretty much if they set out of the gate with you, they're in your hands, the whole way through. And so there is a real responsibility, I believe that we have to manage it with the right level of care and seriousness.

23:54And I think that is in my personality. I do take things seriously because I want to do a great job. And I think that that is a virtue that I think has been, you know, really, really helpful in my life and in my work. And, you know, I think it's something, you know, I think we, you know, in the business, we talk quite a lot about, you know, sort of trends and, you know, people are often hiring people based on a, you know, picture or two that they see that they like. But gosh, those are just so not the whole story. The whole story is what is happening behind the scenes to bring what is thousands of disparate parts, you know, together into a smooth landing for somebody.

24:43It has to come with the right level of planfulness and thought and consideration for it to, it has to be a central focus of the practice to have a chance of happening. And we've all, you know, heard stories and I've, you know, certainly been, you know, interviewed by, you know, prospective clients many times who just come with, you know, stories of disappointment. And it breaks my heart a little bit every time how we run every aspect of the business is something that, you know, we really put sort of professional services thinking. And that's partly why, you know, many of the, you know, It's a team that I've built over time, many of whom sort of had careers in other fields before they came to design.

25:30They were, you know, either ultimately went to design school out of interest or made a career change because they wanted perhaps, you know, to work in a kinder, gentler industry, which ours is. but you know but they have the benefit of of experiences from life before that they bring that sort of knowledge and experience to our design work and that was really important because I think early on I was sort of trying to do all of that on my own but building a team that can sort of do that with me has been has been the really crucial you know it's been key in the evolution. And have you found so often people will say, oh, you want to hire people who have been in the food service industry, or you want to hire people who have been in hospitality, because they understand service on a whole other level.

26:25But what have you found with the people from different walks of life that you've hired? What have you found in their background turns out to be helpful in the design world? I don't know that there's any one particular industry. the qualities that I look for are two things. Communication skills, so important. We are communicating with hundreds of people on a daily basis, certainly to clients where that needs to be clear and understandable for them and easy for them and factual and straightforward and well sort of written, whether that's email or in a conversation. But to all of our vendors, how we're communicating the information, the sort of DNA of the design.

27:11Whether it's to a contractor or fabricator, you know, the breakdowns happen in the sort of the gray areas in language or in specificity. And so, really sort of focused communicators, strong communicators are essential. And then the other one, the other sort of quality that I really look for is emotional intelligence. You know, it's sort of the ability to sort of take a scenario, take a situation and react to it, respond to it in a way that sort of understands the perspective of the other person. You know, whether, again, whether it's a vendor or something, you know, a client, something goes wrong or whatever it might be.

27:49And then to be able to use that sort of perspective to think through a way forward, think through a solution. So, I guess that's sort of a third critical thinking, I guess. But that easy combination to find of communication. No, no, no. I mean, no, that's the thing. And so to hear that you've got a team, you know, 15 people, I mean, that's wow. That's a pretty big that's a pretty big studio to to have that many people that have been able to demonstrate. And it makes me wonder, and the early tech entrepreneurs and the businesses that you saw them building, were there elements from what they were doing that you took away and thought, oh, that's interesting to see their approach to running or building a business?

28:35Did that help? Were they in any way helpful to you, Dan, is I guess my question. For sure. I mean, I think that there's a real simplicity in a lot of ways to how many, you know, startups and tech companies sort of think about things. And it's sort of like how you kind of get to the essence of something, whether it's a process or whether it's a, you know, in a way that's very clear and very straightforward and very logical. And I think generally the design business sort of operates, you know, more kind of in the right brain, you know, world of people where it's a lot more sort of about sort of, you know, sort of a creative pursuit.

29:19And of course it is. But, you know, the other half of the story is that it just needs to sort of move forward in a way that, yeah, has a sort of a logical progression. We've made this decision, this meeting, and now here we are in the next meeting, and now we're going to make this next decision. And there's just a bit more of a methodology, if you will, to how to present the material. And that's something that I think, you know, now I think tech culture has seeped into every aspect of our modern world. But at the time, it was, you know, in many ways, that kind of thinking was new. And also, you know, thinking outside the box a bit, problem solving outside the box, where you get stuck.

30:07Very often, you sort of hear, well, it's stuck on a truck or this or that isn't going to... And then I'm always sort of thinking to the next step, which is how do we get it off the truck? How do we get somebody there? There's always sort of a little bit of creative thinking to be done. And I think that kind of stuff I learned by observing. I also learned in my early projects where, you know, I was having to sort of, you know, pull off really sort of challenging assignments. And through them, I learned so much about, you know, creative problem solving and thinking on my feet. And those were, yeah, those were skills that, you know, have just informed every aspect of how we run the business today.

31:00We're taking a quick break to remind designers about John Rosselli and Associates, your go-to destination for custom design solutions and an unparalleled selection of furniture, lighting, textiles, and wall covering. Celebrating 75 years of innovation, John Rosselli partners with leading brands to offer endless customization options, ensuring every project is as unique as your vision. With a reputation for outstanding service and inspiring collections, they're here to support you every step of the way. Visit johnrosselli.com or explore their showrooms to discover how they can elevate your next design project.