David Phoenix's client checklist

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer David Phoenix. David had a rocky youth. He left home at a young age and struggled with addiction. But once he settled into sobriety and pursued design, he's had a charmed career, working with celebrities like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rob Lowe, his work gracing the cover of Architectural Digest several times, and lines with Hickory Chair and Cravett. I spoke with David about why it pays to be honest about what you don't know, the ideal number of employees in a design firm, and why he has it written into his contract that he installs in solitude.

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3:03Tell us this story as a way in to better understand you, David. Oh, God, I think it's going to take more than that. I'm still trying to understand me. well I was listen you know I had a lot of different jobs and design related industry you know experiences showrooms etc and I had lost my job in the early 90s and I was taking care of a friend and who was staying with Barry and he had AIDS at the time and was clearly not going to make And it was a very scary time. I was in my 20s and all my friends were passing away around me. And I used to go every day to visit him. I was just trying to figure life out on my own, my early 20s.

3:57And I was just really scared. And anyway, he passed away. And Barry had said to me, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I don't know. I'm looking at all your classifieds every day and trying to get a few leads, but I'm not sure. And this and that. And he was a very intimidating guy. And he was, at the time, trying to buy Paramount Pictures. And he was outbid by Sumner Redstone. But that was all going on at that time. And where was he? At QVC at the time? He was working for, I think, John Malone. He had a cable company out in Denver, I think. And he had his hands in a lot of things. And so he said, why don't you go down there?

4:40And then maybe they'll find something for you to do. And so I got all dressed up. And I went down and was so excited. I thought this was my big break. And I got there. And it was a sea of cubicles. And the guy really didn't know what I was going to do. And I didn't know what I was going to do. And I was just like, what are we doing? And so later on, he said, hey, how did your meeting go? And I said, oh, there was this place full of cubicles. And he said, well, oh. He said, really? I said, yeah. He goes, well, what did you think you were going to do there? And I said, well, I thought I was going to be on television to sell products.

5:12He laughed. He goes, well, have you ever been on TV? And I said, well, no. He said, well, why would you think you'd be on TV now? I said, well, I just thought maybe you own the place. Maybe you could pull some strings, turn the cameras on. I don't know. Just thought you were that powerful that you just put me in front of the TV cameras. Sure. And he laughed and he said, well, what is your passion? What are you passionate about? And I was thinking, oh boy, this is, I've got to really pull a rabbit out of a hat here quickly. And I said, well, you know, I go say, think big and you'll be big. So I said, well, I'm going to become an interior designer.

5:51And he said, is that it? And I said, yes, it is. I said, that's what I want to do. I said, I love beautiful things and I love putting them together. and I have a great eye and I think I have a career in this. I think I could make a career of this. He said, okay. And he pushed a button on his desk and two people came in with a notebook and he needs a resale number. What's the name of your company, David? I said, it goes David Phoenix. Boom. Next thing I was incorporated, I had a resale number at rapid speed. So he's like, well, now what? And I said, well, maybe I could recover some of your furniture.

6:27It's a little shabby. It really wasn't, but I just thought I had to think of something great. And okay, great. It was all white. I figured I couldn't screw it up. White's, you know, slipcovered. I had a slipcover business on the side when I worked at Pierre Du. And off I went to the design center where I had worked previously. I worked at Brunswick as a sample librarian in my, you know, teens, early 20s. In your wayward youth, which we'll talk about. You know, it's funny when I got the gig at Cravit, I said, you know, I have to really make an amends to you, Carrie and Lisa. I said, I was so hungover when I worked here.

7:07I used to UPS the samples home to my house because I could never put them away by nine o 'clock. And I'd bring them back in little batches.

7:18So they laughed and they said, oh, well, we forgive you for that. I was like, well, anyway, they didn't own Brunchwick at the time. They didn't own the company at the time. Exactly. So anyway, so that's how I started. So I figured I couldn't screw this up. I knew where the fabrics were. I knew the design center inside and out. So I went down there and I got two huge bags of white fabric because I thought, I can't screw this up. I can't, you know, I've got to have enough options. What if I get there and I don't have the right hue of white or cream or whatever? So then I was going down the escalator, proud as a peacock.

7:58I had all my selections all bundled together. And Maria was coming up the other one. And she said, oh, hi. I called you at that shop, but you're not there anymore. I said, well, no, I have my own business. I said, I'm here pulling fabrics for a client. And she said, oh, wow, really? And I said, yes. She said, well, OK, well, give me your card. And I said, well, I left the house today without any cards. I'm sorry. and she said well write your number down i said okay so i wrote my number down and as i'm writing my number down um she dumped the bags looking she goes well i said don't mess up my schemes and she said scheme she said everything here is white i said well this person he likes white she goes oh it's for a man i said yes she said oh well who and i said oh i can't really tell you i said he's a real hothead and i said i'm just don't want to get upset i see very private she said well you're going to tell me before you leave so i said who it was for and she said well okay i'll see you later and so she called barry from her car after she left me about five minutes later as i was on my way to see him and she said um hey i just ran into your designer at the design center he said oh david yes and she said do you have you seen any of his work he said oh no no i haven't and does he have a portfolio and he said well i don't believe he does and she said oh well why would you hire him he could you could you know you could hire anyone you want he said well truth be told i watched him you know take care of his best friend a mutual friend we have i've known him socially.

9:38He showed up every day for two years taking care of his best friend, Steve. And he has great character and do what you want. So I pulled up, he was there. He said, thanks for the heads up on the phone call. Thanks for letting me know Maria Shriver is going to be calling me. I said, you know, she scares me more than you do. I said, you're intimidating, but she's next level. And he laughed and he said, well, she's going to call you i said oh right no i don't think so he said oh no she's going to call you and he said when she does tell her you're not available i said oh i can't do that and he said yeah you can you just trust me on that and he said you'll thank me later i said okay so and so i you know was at home and the phone happened to ring and the machine picked up and i picked up i said hi she said oh i was wondering if you could come over tomorrow i want to look at that furniture with you and discuss some things.

10:34And Arna, we'd like to talk to you too. And I said, tomorrow I couldn't possibly. I said, I'm busy. I said, I could do it next week. She said, next week? So she said, oh, God. She was annoyed. She wrote down the date and the time and da-da-da-da. So then she hung up the phone. She's talking to her brother. And she said, hey, you just bought a house. I've got this designer coming over next Thursday. You should call him now. He's very hard to get in with. He's going to do my plays, Barry. He's working on Barry's plays. He could do you, maybe. You should call him now. And he did. And I did his house.

11:08So it just was kind of, that's how I started my business. And it was not by careful planning or strategy or it was just kind of, you know, part right time, right place, part, you know, having the courage of my convictions and just kind of going for it. You had come out to LA at a young age with one of those sort of classic, not much money in your pocket stories. Let's talk about that a little bit. I don't want to bring up bad memories, but you were a young kid. Yes, I was. I had left home at 15. I lived with another family for a little bit. I barely finished school. And I just felt different. No matter what I did, I didn't feel like I ever really belonged.

12:05and um i bought a one-way ticket to la and it was 1984 and i thought well this is it i used to i used to watch this talk show in the 70s dinah shore and she had a white sectional and she had stars over and she she could cook she sang she was dating burt reynolds sexiest man alive at the time I thought I really need to be where she is and I want what she has. So things will be better once I get, I can only be in Beverly Hills. Things are just going to be, I'll be skiing on a rainbow the whole way. So that was kind of like, she was, I don't know. It was something where I guess I got lost in my head and I was watching that.

12:52And I think, I guess just to kind of escapism or, you know, daydream or whatever I used to do at the time. So, uh, It was helpful to get through the day. So that pulled you out there. And tell me just a little bit about when you got to LA. So you mentioned you had some earlier jobs. I worked at Brunchwig, sample librarian. So I learned a lot about fabric there. And then I worked at Pierre Du when the two peers still owned it. And that was great. I learned about antiques. I learned about fabric, more fabric, and just had that kind of country French aesthetic, the different layering of the prints and the plaid and the antiques and accessorizing and the different items that they sold there, which was great.

13:48And I found out there that I was a good salesman. And I think that's essential if you're a designer. You need to be able to sell your ideas. the first day of my job there i sold a gentleman named amon warty you know he sold couture clothing um i sold him 26 000 worth of placemats and napkins which in 1986 that's a lot of a lot of course i was much younger then yeah i think he kind of liked me like he always had me deliver them you were young and cute young and cute yeah and sure i used to deliver them over there my little bow tie so i i learned how to sell you know yeah um then from there now it's the late 80s and i weren't went to work for ralph lauren often considered a great training ground yeah for future designers and others yes wonderful yeah mark cunningham worked there when i worked there and uh a lot of great people you know were there so i had a nice little paper Rolodex of all my customers.

14:57And so I really, you know, got to know a lot of people there. Well, and was that useful and helpful to you when you're set up with your own firm, not too many years later? It was helpful. Yeah. I mean, I had a lot of good contacts for vendors and customers and people would see me out and they'd like, hey, you used to work. I'm like, yeah, that was me. It was good. It was good. Well, it sounds like you had a lot of fun. It also sounded as though there was a time where the fun, for you at least, had to come to an end a little bit. Maybe some of the partying and the other side? Yeah, I definitely had a good time.

15:35I had a very short run of that, probably from about 16 to 22. Okay. So that definitely ran its course. In fact, tomorrow is my sobriety date. I'll have 36 years of sobriety tomorrow. Yeah. Well, so in thinking about that, I mean, was there a rock bottom moment? Was there, I mean, you refer to somebody sort of coming along to help you through the storm. I mean, what happened for you? I just knew from my background and my family history that I could not sustain that. and you know you kind of get they say you're sick and tired of being sick and tired and um this guy that i met bill burns early on um kind of steered me in the right path and and bill was great and he said if you're serious about being successful in this life you need to stop so that was kind of the light bulb for me my aha moment working at ralph lauren was my first kind of real adult sober job so 89 to 94 is when i started my business so it's a few years after i mean i was working yeah yeah it wasn't just you know right away

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18:07You get set up with your own firm by chance. You have these clients not fall into your lap necessarily, but you quickly get some... But they fell into your lap. They fell into your lap a little bit. And were you just off to the races after that? I was. I didn't really have a plan. and I also didn't set out with any like okay I want to do this this and this I just I did what was put in front of me you know I was I was somewhat insecure about not having accreditation or schooling for it and I wonder I felt you know I struggled with that because you know it's really easy I mean even back then now today I think it's even more in life where you've got so much on social media.

19:02Back then, we didn't have the internet. So it was just my inner voice comparing myself to this person or that designer or this other person or they're doing this and I'm not or I'm doing this and they're not. So I think it's really important to stay in your own lane. And if you're passionate about something and you feel like you can do it, do it. I think there's nothing wrong with asking for help, which I was not good at, because to the point of having to prove myself, I felt like that was a sign of weakness if I had to ask somebody for help. So obviously you make mistakes, you learn from them.

19:43And for younger people, younger designers, I think it's essential that you ask for help. There's nothing wrong with it. And I say it all the time in big meetings now. I'm like, I'm just seeing this for the first time. Let me think about that. Hmm, I don't have any experience at that. Let me find out what the best way to go about that is. No one can fault you for that. And I think if you're honest and clear about that up front, people respect it. There's nothing worse than being in a meeting with somebody, oh, I've done everything and I know everything. I mean, give me a break. No, that's not true.

20:16So I think that there's something healthy about that. Well, I mean, remarkably, I mean, we mentioned the Maria Shriver connection, which would ultimately become the uh governor schwarzenegger connection and uh and you uh and if i remember you worked with the the mayor of la as well i did i did um i was working for his i guess fiance at the time nancy daly and i did a few projects for her and then she married uh mary reardon and they moved in together so we did another project and then she was just really a phenomenal person incredible i really miss her i get choked up when i think about her she passed away a few years back we had cancer at the same time she didn't make it and um she was just really really another person that i learned a lot from really she taught me about just you know just was maternal, but yet just really wise.

21:20And when she hired me, she said, I just want to be very clear with you. I never want to go shopping with you. I was like, you don't? Because other clients want to see every little thing at the time. And I was like, oh God. I said, that made me nervous. I was like, okay. She goes, show me three things. If I can't pick from those three things, we'll talk. or if it's over$75 ,000, then I'll go look at it. Otherwise, I don't care. I want to just - Don't bother me. Yeah. Well, just show me what you want to do. And that's why I'm hiring you. That's why I'm hiring you. And so it really gave me a lot of confidence.

21:58And also it allowed me to do my best work and to really present what I felt was the right for the project. And so that was a big turning point for me. Well, I was curious to hear you talk about what you thought were meaningful turning points, meaningful milestones in your career. I mean, some of the big name clients, obviously, we've talked about. I mean, I don't know if the Rob Lowe Architectural Digest cover, if that was a big moment. I mean, you tell me. that was page rents's last cover and i didn't know it at the time but we were supposed to be in the hollywood issue and i guess his publicist was talking to ad people and you know didn't like that he wasn't going to be on the cover somebody else was and pitched a fit and so then one thing led to another and i got an email for a call from page's assistant saying she wants to have tea with you when she's in LA.

22:59So I went and had tea with her and she's like rich talk about intimidating. I mean, I had met her before, but, and she's always very nice to me. And, um, she said, no movie star is going to tell me how to print my magazine. I said, Oh, I said, noted, I said, noted, no problem. So I'm like, I'm just, I don't know if she thought I was in cahoots with the publicist or whatever, but I was just like, okay. So then I, I said, well, okay. So I just, I thought I'd leave it alone. I was not going to poke the bear anymore on that. I said, what if we look at, would you like to see another project I'm working on?

23:32She goes, absolutely. So I showed her this project and we're flipping through it. And it was very, it was beautiful, but it was all very beige. And so she's like, that is beautiful, David. She slammed it. She goes, but I'm not printing a beige magazine either. I said, well, there are pops of color in there. so there's got they have very important art and so she laughed and then this we were sitting in the in the restaurant and somebody very well known recognized her and she said oh god under breath and they were coming towards us and she said oh god she goes i'm cooked now and so anyway the lady oh my god page you didn't tell me you're in town oh my god i'd love to talk to you oh my god here's my number throwing herself at her and she's like oh yes of course i'll call you and then of course it was just very funny to see her handle that but anyway anyway but she was she was great i i really admire her and she told me that she asked me how many people i had in the office i said you know five and she said billy baldwin told me five is the perfect number well there you go so i was All right, well, five it is.

24:49Don't get it to six. I will never deviate from that number. Of course I said, is that including me?

25:00Yeah, keep it lean. That was a big moment. Of course, it's like getting an Oscar in the design industry. Felt validated after all that time. And back in the day, and not that this was all that many years ago, But I mean, we always talk about when magazines were at their peak or the reach and influence of shelter magazines, right, that you'd be on the cover of Architectural Digest and would people be calling? Would you have clients waiting for years after that or was there not that huge impact for you? I just feel like I think it's nice to be noticed for your work, but I wouldn't rely on it for the phones ringing off the hook.

25:46You know, I mean, I think it's a validation showing that you're credible, but you get a lot of phone calls like, what color paint did you use? Or where did you buy that fabric? Or can I buy that coffee table from you or whatnot? So, you know, I always shied away from publishing any of my work. And a lot of my clients won't let me photograph. So I can't, because of whether it's art collection or they don't want to have their stuff out there. So it's hard to show all my work. But I think that it's nice to get the validation from our industry, whether it's through online or shelter magazine back in the day.

26:25But I never really did this to be famous or publicity hungry or aggressive that way. To me, it was a turnoff. What's the turnoff? For me, I think it should happen organically. I think if you target, I never really sought it, and I probably should be a little bit better at it, promoting myself, but I feel like it should be a little bit more organic. I like to meet people and have a meaningful connection with whether it's architects or real estate people or clients or friends of clients. And I think that's how I've gotten most of my work. Yeah. Well, and is part of wanting to spend time with people, is that also you wanting to see if you really want to work with them?

27:22Oh, yeah. Well, that's a whole other thing. I have my checklist when I go into an interview. Really? Tell me more. Well, first, kiss of death if you're not even offered a glass of water. that's that's that you're way down in points then number one okay okay so hospitality key then i watch how they if it's a husband and wife how they talk to each other if there's a fight in the interview another big no-no right right then um if they don't have a job your job is going to become their job most likely um and some people don't have jobs but they're active with whatever charity. They have a cause or they're doing something other than sitting watching the phone to ring with your phone call.

28:10So that's a big thing. Spending time with people and seeing, do they have the bandwidth for this? And I always say the road of design is full of potholes. You're going to hit one or two or three. And it's just temporary. Tell me some of the potholes for you. So here you are, as you've acknowledged, this untrained interior designer finding his own way in the world without having worked for some big firm for a time. What have been some of the rough road spots for you and how have you gotten through some of the difficult times? Hiring the right people. I think somebody told me once that a bad employee could cost you four times their salary, which I've unfortunately experienced.

29:03I have proven that model out. I've had that more than once, more than once. So that's happened. Because it's like a small family. If your office is only five people, it's a small group. Everyone has their role, and everyone's got to get along. I have to just tell this story. I interviewed somebody. So the candidate comes in, very well-dressed, fresh out of design school, recommended by a very good vendor. So I thought, okay, great. First thing, I brought the senior person he'd be working under. She interviewed him. So we kind of got busy, and then about a week goes by, 10 days maybe. And I said, hey, what do you think of that candidate?

29:50And she said, I would endorse that. I think we need the help, and let's go forward with it. Great, no problem. So I emailed him and I said, let's talk tomorrow at 10 o 'clock, if that's okay. Yes. I called three times, went right to voicemail, called me back. He goes, I didn't have your number on my phone. I thought it was spam. I said, okay, I get it. No problem. I said, listen, instead of talking on the phone, do you want to come in and we can just have a quick, he goes, I'm free after 2.30. I said, perfect. No problem. So he shows up right on time, kind of casually, completely dressed differently than the first interview.

30:27not that i was judging him on his you know attire but it was very casual like you know very casual and he was very uptight in the interview second time he was very you know just tense and i said hey i said you know you seem like you're a little preoccupied i said is everything okay he goes the commute i said well you live two exits north of palm beach i said somebody else work lives there too it's 20 minutes not that bad you know well i um i do crossfit from 11 a.m to one i said oh i said i said i said two hours of crossfit from 11 a.m to one i said well and the guy was like 40 pounds wet i mean he was just like you know this little thin guy i was like i said what do you do for two hours of crossfit he goes well we a lot of tires that turn over and we work out for an hour and then he goes like this this is he just like very zen he goes then we socialize and meditate for an hour very his voice got very calm and low i said okay i said well you know most of america works out in the morning or after work have you thought about that oh no my my group's too important to me

31:46so here i am in this interview i'm like what is going on so then of course i'm getting a text message from the girl in the next room saying something's going wrong here i was like no kidding. So anyway, he declined the offer. It was going to interfere with his two hours of CrossFit training, David. Yeah, I know. I mean... So it's really hard to find good people. It's the moral of the story. Exactly. It's so interesting that you say that, because we went through an intense period where so many people were leaving firms that they were working for, going out on their own. It was so hard to find people.