Elizabeth Roberts loves finding new uses for old buildings

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is architect Elizabeth Roberts. A graduate of UC Berkeley and Columbia with a focus in historic preservation, Elizabeth had an impressive career before she started her own firm. On her own, she's become famous for her renovations of Brooklyn townhouses, including the Cobble Hill Project that helped make Athena Calderon a star. I spoke with Elizabeth about how starting small let her take on only work she really wanted, why her office takes on interior design as well as architecture, and why her life's mission is finding new uses for old buildings.

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2:43You know, my father was a, he worked at UC San Francisco. I grew up in Marin County. And he was a doctor who ran a medical science lab there and a professor. And he told me, Elizabeth, if you get into Harvard, or if you get into Stanford, we'll talk. Otherwise, you're going to a UC system school. Okay, no pressure. I was not getting into Harvard, and I was not getting into Stanford. So, I went to UC school, and it narrowed it down tremendously. And I went to, I don't know, I went to a school that was in a different part of California than I knew. And it was fine for two years. But after two years of general education, I told my mom that I was going to major in biology with the intention to doing pre-med like everyone else in my family.

3:39And she just said very quietly, she said, I really just think that you should explore having a creative career. And so I took some time off, actually, after two years at UC San Diego. And I studied art for a semester. And I worked at an architecture firm for a summer. And I loved the architecture firm experience. But I'll tell you, you know, It was partially not just the experience of the work I was doing, which, by the way, included strip malls near the airport in San Francisco. But it was the fact that there were colored pencils on the table and there were skylights and the way people worked and the way they interacted and what they talked about.

4:31Now, my work experience had, previous to that, had really, my professional, you know, like any sort of job, potential job related work experience was limited to my dad's lab at UCSF. And it was dark and it was cold. And I was stretching like muscle, little pieces of muscle tissue between one Geiger counter and another. And I couldn't wait to get out of there for my lunch every day. And so, you know, I think that it was partially this love for creating things and partially just the love of being at work. And I really learned everything I know about architecture, you know, in my first semester, my first two years.

5:18You know, I hadn't known anything about really anything about architecture other than like living inside and around buildings. I hadn't paid attention I was I grew up in northern California where there's not a huge variety of architecture not a huge there's not a huge amount of history of historic architecture I hadn't paid attention to at least I hadn't seen it so I went to UC Berkeley and and just dove into the deep end um and learned a lot and loved it Going back to your mom for a minute, looking back, what do you think made her say to you at that time, hey, I really think you should look at something more creative?

6:04Was she reaching out about things that you had demonstrated as a child or was she just hoping to offer you another path and didn't want you to think that you had to go down? Well, I think she was, you know, I did a lot of drawing and painting and music growing up. And I think I did a little bit more of the drawing and painting than anyone else in the family, for instance. but it's not like I was you know constantly top of the class in the art studio or anything in high school um I think she just saw it as I was a little different than the rest of the family in that way yeah well and and and music showed up for you and and you you played piano if I recall and the and the cello yes and I mean yeah so also signs of of creativity there and yeah I did I started piano at five and i started cello at ten and again it was sort of something that came easy for me let's call it natural it was sort of natural yeah so so coming back to uc berkeley so so you're at uc berkeley and and you're and you're really enjoying it and and the and the history and and all of it and and tell me tell me where you go from there um let's see so i I had a friend who was studying classics and went to an archaeological dig during high school and after high school as well.

7:39And I went a few times. I went to Crete for two summers. And somehow, magically, I became the site architect, which means you... Sounds terribly important. It does, doesn't it? It just means that the site architect sits with the head archaeologist and tries to draw his or her vision of what it is that you're looking for, what you're digging up. And so that was incredibly fun. And so I did that for a few summers. And I just, I think I had a great appreciation. I found a great appreciation in people who were experts at history and who were super passionate about, you know, the Minoan age of Crete from 2000 BC.

8:29And those are the days. Yeah. Yeah. The Minoans really had it. No, but it was fun. It was fun. And it was, I think it just, I guess it kind of separated me a tiniest bit from a lot of architecture students. I'd studied exactly two years, you know. I had two years of training when I finished at UC Berkeley because it's a BA of architecture program. And one of my professors said, you know, Elizabeth, you've been kind of dabbling in all this history of architecture. Why don't you think about specializing? You can always do architecture, but if you get a kind of specialized degree in architecture, it just kind of gives you another dimension, another option.

9:16And so that's where I got the idea to study historic preservation. And I applied to a few graduate programs. And luckily, Columbia took me and brought me to New York. I was pretty thrilled to have come in. Yeah, I was. And I do remember rolling on the floor somehow. In response? Because you were so excited? I love that. Okay. That's a funny thing to remember. I don't think I've ever shared that with anyone. But yeah, I was really excited. And I think I didn't really know what I was getting myself into, honestly, because I thought that it would have a lot more. I thought the program would have a lot more to do with designing new things within or in addition to historic buildings.

10:08And there wasn't a lot of that in the program. There was a lot of conservation. There was a lot of, you know, the different bureaucracies one has to deal with in order to work with old buildings. And so it wasn't like it wasn't my favorite, you know, couple of years. but I and I also felt very oh gosh this is sort of therapy I felt um I felt sort of that tell us how you feel don't don't censor yourself I'm not um let's see I felt really separate from my peers from who were in the architecture program because this this preservation program was really very separate and I I just didn't know that going in I thought that there would be a lot more crossover.

10:54And so, I figured out a way to design a thesis. I did a thesis project. I brought in a thesis project. And so, my last year at Columbia, I just really focused on revamping this historic building in France and creating an art school out of this industrial building. And that felt great to me. Yeah. Just the kind of practice. And it was actually a, I was gifting my thesis to an art school who had purchased this building. And so I loved the second year. I just sort of turned it upside down and made it into exactly what I wanted it to be. And again, it brought me to New York. And coming out of school, so you worked in a couple of places before starting your own firm.

11:46What do you recall about the early days before you went out on your own? Yeah, I worked in a few offices and offices of different scale. So I worked in a three-person firm. I worked in a really large corporate firm here in Manhattan after graduate school. I worked for Byer Blender Bell. Yeah. Yeah, I worked in like a mid-size firm. I worked for William Turnbull as an intern in San Francisco. And those are my three main jobs before I decided to try to work on my own. I think, let's see, the way it really happened is I'd been working at an excellent job, Byerblander Bell, working on really interesting projects for a couple of years.

12:40And I hadn't seen anything built, not a single thing. And I just remember this day that my stepmother called me and she said, Elizabeth, we really want to refinish our wood floors, but we don't know what product to use and we don't know how long it should take and how much it should cost. We're wondering if you could help. And I had no practical knowledge whatsoever to share with them. And I had this moment, like this little aha moment that I really wanted. I wanted some practical knowledge. I wanted to know about fixing houses. And I wanted to know about refinishing floors. And that's when I just, I decided to quit.

13:27And eventually somebody hired me to do a project. And it only took one project. I only needed a little bit of money to run an office out of my bedroom in the East Village. It was really easy. And were those actually the early days, was running it out of your bedroom in the village? Yeah. I remember I had a fax machine that was also a printer. I thought that was like the most amazing thing. Technology, boy. It's amazing what it can do. Who needs anything more? I have a desk in my bedroom. I have a laptop. And I have a fax machine that's also a printer. No, so I worked that way for a couple years.

14:09And eventually, after a few other stints working for other people, I decided I really wanted to make it work. And I really wanted to make it work my own way for my own reasons, my own values, the types of projects I wanted to work. I wanted to be in control of the types of projects that I would be working on. And I just, I was determined finally. I think that I was 28 at that point. And maybe I was 31. Anyway, there were a few years of just kind of back and forth working for other people. And I think it was the best decision. And it also allowed, and so I just worked from home. I was out of the East Village.

14:50I no longer, you know, I'd upgraded to a regular printer. And I had three desks. And I would rent a desk to another architect. And sometimes she would help me on my projects. But I think working from home in that location and for a number of years after that allowed me to really develop a portfolio of projects that I loved because I didn't have a huge amount of pressure with overhead. and I was able to just take on one or two projects a year and dive in deep. And I think that was a hugely important move for my career. And so what was the early work that you were doing? When do you become this, when do the townhomes become such a part of your life?

15:43And not to mention, didn't you have some rock star early on in your career? Yeah, actually, right. An early client? I mean. A friend of a friend introduced me to Cheryl Crow, who was looking for an architect. And it was the first job I took after Byerblender Bell. And she lived down the street. She had this loft down the street. And I was so lucky. And my fees were very low. And I was very available. And it just worked out. But when did I start working on townhouses? I mean, I think, let's see, the reason that Columbia really made a lot of sense, I think, the reason that I think the historic preservation department is really good, exceptionally good, is that New York has, in the U .S.

16:34has a lot of great historic architecture and a lot of, you know, great, obviously, professionals who choose to work here. So, you know, I knew when I started this historic preservation program that I wanted, I really loved the idea of finding new uses for old buildings. It just kind of checked a lot of boxes for me. I loved aesthetically, I loved putting brand new things next to crumbling old things. I loved the idea of, you know, the environmental side of just dealing with, you know, like existing shell and finding a way to make it beautiful again. So, you know, I think that even the loft for Cheryl was just the kind of project I wanted to do.

17:22So it's like an old loft in NoHo with, you know, tin ceilings and a lot of character and some columns. And it was just, it was kind of exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to put some really modern, beautiful, clean glass sliding doors in there. eventually my first townhouse came along but that was a bigger project i did a lot of apartments and lofts and well so and what were people coming to you for i mean in the in the early so cheryl crow like what what what was the what what did she need done she needed to turn this long loft space that was pretty dark into a home um and i think i can't tell you why she why she hired me.

18:11But I think that I was hungry and I think she liked the fact that I was available and I just finished school. So I was really excited about doing something unique and different. And so, yeah, I made this incredibly long line of sliding ceiling glass doors with friends of mine who ran a metal shop. And I did what I'd learned at Byerbunner Bell. I got like refracting glass and halo fixtures and put them down the hallway because they threw the light everywhere um and it was you know it's pretty simple and um but i was really lucky for that opportunity yeah and and and was she was she somebody that that created lots of lots of other opportunities for you in the in the future was there a network within that opportunity or Or did you?

19:06No, that was the only time I worked with her. She did at one point fax me on that little fax printer. Did she? A bunch of cello parts and asked me if I wanted to tour with her. Really? Yeah. I said, I think we got to slow down here. I don't think she'd ever heard me play, but that didn't go anywhere. But that was fun. I think I still have a stack. Although they're probably all faded, that kind of thermal paper. It's fun that she even thought of you for that, though, right? I mean... Yeah. No, that's the only project we did together. Okay. Okay. It could have been your performing career. Right.

19:45It could have been. It could have been. But that project was, interestingly, now that I think about it, it was included in the very first issue of Dwell Magazine. Really? Yeah. The very first. And you know who was on the page beside me? Itaro Sotsas. You're kidding. No. I mean, so look at you in such great company, right? It was very random. Just starting out. Yeah, I did not know, you know, like never heard of Dwell. Who knew that it was going to. Who knew it was going to blow up into this major sister publication to business of home today. Yes. Yes. It was a great start. Well, well done you.

20:29And did that press lead to people reaching out? Did people discover you from that? I think it always helps, right? It always helps to have something published. And especially when you're brand new, it's so helpful to be able to point to a really beautiful layout of one's work. And it definitely helped.

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21:58And so lots of small projects started to come your way. Was there a project that began to become a major turning point for you? Yeah, I think probably my first townhouse was a Brooklyn house. And this wonderful, one of my early clients decided to hire me based on work that she'd seen that I'd done, including my own loft in the village. And she said, if you can do this, you can do a townhouse. She had great faith in me. And it was a great start. I think Brooklyn, so this was like, let's think of years. This was about 2006, something like that. And the architecture, you know, the opportunities for restoring these beautiful old houses, you know, they were so much more affordable then.

22:55And so I did one and then I did another. And then I think the third house I ever did was my own. And that was during, definitely during the 2009 downturn. There wasn't a lot of work, and I was pregnant with my son, and I just indulged in this, like, you know, nesting idea. I just sat at the kitchen counter and drew and drew and drew and thought about, you know, how we could stretch our tiny little construction budget to do all the bathrooms we needed to do. And I, yeah, it was, I think that my, that that house that I did for my family was a really, really huge gift to my career. Because it also then supported my office.

23:45So we were on the fourth floor of that townhouse for many years. And I designed a room with a little sink for the coffee and a, you know, tiny, there were six desks in one room. and we maxed it out for about four years. You know, it took a while for me to realize that this lovely setup of working from home was actually sort of stifling in a way. At one point, people really didn't want to and couldn't, you know, stay longer than six o 'clock at night because that's when family time started. And there also just physically wasn't enough space. I was you know kind of bulging at the seams by the time I finally got us my own office outside of the house where we're still located but yeah that really enabled me to you know we took a much larger space in Gowanus and I think I had room for 15 or maybe something more like maybe 11 desks At the time, I thought, oh, my God, I'm never going to be able to use this space.

24:54And I was sure I was going to be renting desks to other architects. And very quickly, we filled the entire room. And then we broke through and doubled in size. And then you needed more space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when people ask about the size of the firm and how did you arrive at the size of the firm, I just say it's the amount of people we can basically fit.

25:23we grew into our own scale and but we can't go anymore that's it that's the next right we don't have the we don't have the room well and and did the and did the townhouses in your own home and i can't remember at what point you did what is now sort of the famous athena calderon townhouse i don't know when that happened for you but it it seemed as if your your deep understanding of of these townhouses in Brooklyn and elsewhere, what they could become and what you could turn them into just seemed to be what so many people recognized you for. Yeah, you're right. The townhouse continues to be a favorite here at our office.

26:09I mean, let's see, I've tried to describe what it is about these townhomes that is so, to me so appealing and I think there's something about the formality that just these old you know usually late 1800s houses have in terms of scale in terms of the you know the kind of beautiful formal stairs that lead to the front door um there's just this gracefulness that um that I love working with. But yeah, we do a lot of townhouses. We do probably at any given time, we've got about five in our office or six, maybe more. I mean, because they take years to finish, right? So I'm designing only something like four projects at a time, but they stick around and we see the projects, you know, well past completion because we do the furniture too.

27:07so you know I think we can save people a lot of time in terms of like first we listen to what their goals are with you know in terms of how you're going to live and who's going to be in what room and how you entertain and um but then I can really take that and organize you know organize the home pretty quickly and communicate it to our clients I think pretty well in terms of like this is the way and this is why and this is where the light comes and this is where you are in the morning and this is where you'll be at night and this is where you'll you know where your friends will sit so we had done a few and and i think i originally met her with another project actually she hired me to work on her loft and in the end she didn't end up purchasing this loft but she really liked the plan that i suggested for her and and then she moved on to the townhouse i was very sad when she let that townhouse go she didn't consult me about the townhouse go So I was a little taken aback by because I really, when I was, I was so happy there and I thought she understood that.

28:16Right. Right. I mean, and listen, and the Tribeca apartment is beautiful and a totally different, a totally different feeling. Yeah. And she wanted to clearly, she wanted to reinvent or reimagine. And she, she certainly, she certainly did. Yeah. But you also built quite a sizable interiors department and can really take the project all the way through, if I recall. Yes, we have a great interiors department here. And the best projects, I think, at ERA are the projects where we do complete interiors and complete architecture. and the reason I say that is that our process is so very much mixed up in terms of like the architecture and the interiors are just constantly talking to each other in the best of our projects in my opinion.

29:14So as opposed to some other classic models where the architect does a building and gets all the permits and even starts construction, perhaps before the interior designer comes in. I think the best process is really for the interior designers to sit with the client and with the architecture team and for us all to hear just like the genesis, the beginnings of these projects all together. It allows for all these creative minds to create something new and different. I honestly believe that I could only create a certain number of things. When you put me in the room with all these smart, fun, creative people who work with me, including clients, that's when we create things that are new and novel and different.

30:10It's all the ideas kind of gelling and pushing up against each other. And so interior designers have great ideas about how the building lives, the materials, the lighting. I find that some of my interior designers are the best actually at plans, at laying out how the rooms unfold. And so I just feel like these disciplines are not meant to be in separate rooms and separate phases. and it also makes for a really great experience for our clients. They don't have to start all over with a whole new design team. We've been getting to know them since day one. And by the time the construction is started, we're seamlessly moving into purchasing furniture.

31:01We don't have to get to know each other. They don't have to put on their design hat again and kind of explain who they are and what they're after and how they like to live. I find there's some design fatigue that happens by the time we get to construction for our clients. It's really nice that they get to just take a little break and be involved in construction and let the interiors team just purchase some beautiful things for them. So what's the design fatigue that sometimes sets in? Yeah, I mean, I think it's very real. There's design fatigue that we avoid. And there's also financial sort of shock that we can avoid.

31:42I'm curious. So we talk about inflation a lot and just how expensive everything has gotten. And many designers will express to me a frustration that because the furniture or all of the other things in the home have gotten so expensive that the client spends what they spend on the space and then is, to your point, maybe it's the fatigue. writing all the checks all the time, or maybe they don't want to spend at the level comparable to the space that they've just designed. And I'm wondering, does that come up for you, or how do you sort of manage that conversation? So here's this beautiful townhouse that you're building, and here's the level of furnishings that we would imagine are going into a space like this.

32:42And our rule of thumb for this size space is roughly X for furnishings. I mean, how do you have that conversation? Well, I usually have that conversation before we're hired, honestly. I mean, I hope that for everybody. I hope that anyone who buys a house knows what they're getting themselves into financially. And so, I know when it's tight. I know when it's impossible. But when it's tight, when it's like, I think you can barely do this thing you want to do. I will often, we have strategies for, and we know it from the very beginning. We're not going to suggest that we rebuild the entire staircase because it's a little bit crooked.