How Homeworthy took over YouTube

23:29Alison Kenworthy:Well, we grow by easily 200 ,000 subscribers a year. So there's no reason we couldn't hit it later this year. And in aggregate, it's now just about 2 million followers across platforms. And so then that audience really did grow from that first year, we were averaging about 60 views per video. And now to get consistently around 100 ,000 is just -

23:54Michael Koenigs:In the first, usually in the first 10 days to two weeks. So the first 10 days to two weeks, you've got 100 ,000 views on a video now. That's the hope. From the 60. So that seems pretty good for the original 60. Yeah, that seems like good growth. Michael, to Alison's point just there about both how the algorithms impact all of this and also help me understand the supporting ecosystem. So does Instagram help lead a lot of traffic over to YouTube? Does YouTube lead a lot? I mean, tell me how that all works together or does it really?

24:27Alison Kenworthy:Well, it's a fascinating question, which is there's relatively little overlap in these audiences. I think there are some people who simply think we have an Instagram. And even though we try to move them over, it's certainly our goal to get everyone to watch on YouTube because that's the only platform we monetize directly. But a lot of our viewers are getting highlight reels on TikTok and elsewhere. But the key for us is how do we get more views on the long form video? And our website has become kind of a great place for people to be able to search and discover strictly our content. And that's grown as well.

25:10Alison Kenworthy:and I think one other note is there's certainly a number of videos where we don't make money on and that's where the view count we you know if your break even point is 100 ,000 views you're really hoping that these you know folks resonate because you're gonna have some misses and and that's part of our equation too you know and part of the volume game is being able to tell as many stories as we do some are gonna take off and some aren't and it's gonna And just like Hollywood, where you really are dependent on the hits that take off, that's true of our model as well. So the Bunny Williams really.

25:47Alison Kenworthy:And then those videos will oftentimes acquire views for years. But it's not a one and done. And when you air a TV special, it's the fact that the library will sometimes not do well in the first two months. And then suddenly a moment of inflection will happen where the person will be in the news again or somehow catch on in the algorithm and you have a hit later on.

26:09Michael Koenigs:Well, and I'm curious about what doesn't work and what you've learned. Is it is it the house is a little bit more modern and they didn't love that? Or is it that the storyteller was just a little too quirky or maybe not quirky enough? I'm guessing in the case of your audience. I mean, I wonder what you've learned about what doesn't seem to resonate. And again, I'm thinking about this, and I think you and I have talked about this in the past, this sort of market intelligence that the home industry in general can be getting from all of this. Because I just think there's so much to learn from what you all are doing in that capacity.

26:48Michael Koenigs:I think our viewer loves a maximalist home, if that term is still a term. They love homes with layers and colors and patterns and texture. So English homes, for example, the Cotswolds, London, Paris. Can't get enough. They do incredibly well for us. And it's not about the size of the home. It's just about the character of a home and it feeling lived in and feeling like it has a soul. And it could be a 350 square foot studio apartment, or it could be a sprawling estate. But there's a certain aesthetic, I think, that our viewers like, and that is cozy and warm and homey. those are the homes that we feel sort of not that we feel that we know do the best from from data points but it's not to say that we don't want to offer a wide variety and offering of all different kinds of homes because that may be how you meet a new audience member or a new niche of design enthusiasts so we really try and be equal opportunists across the board um and profile all different kinds of homes, because you never know what's going to stick and what someone might find interesting.

28:09Alison Kenworthy:And just to build on that, we've done modern homes and the algorithm initially because the core audience, and in part because so many of the original videos we put up were, as Alison mentioned, in that vein of like the Georgetown vibes where so many of her initial episodes came from. But now when we do a modern home, for example, it won't do very well initially. but the algorithm eventually tends to find people who love looking at modern homes. And there certainly is that demographic. So there's sometimes a recovery that happens. And we're planning on doing more sub channels that would deliver modern homes to people who love modern architecture.

28:51Alison Kenworthy:And that might be segmented off, home worthy or promoted, cross promoted in different ways because YouTube certainly loves niche audiences. And we find that is true in the home space as well.

29:02Michael Koenigs:And is someone else going to have to just exec produce those segments, Allison? Because that's just not your thing. Someone else is going to have to take over the modern home part of the build-out. Listen, I love a modern home. I do love a modern home. I love snooping around anybody's home. That's the thing. If you could snoop around, Allison is here for it. Let me in. Let us in. Open those cabinets. Open those drawers. Yeah. I say, where's the powder room? And then I've somehow found myself in the bedroom. It's like that Steve Martin scene from Father of the Bride. Well, but I am struck, and you talked about this earlier, I am struck by, and I don't know what explains it, but the audience or the comment section of your videos seems so much more kind and supportive and cheerleading.

29:55Michael Koenigs:Recently, a well-known designer had her new apartment put up on the New York Times. website and the comments were scathing. They were vicious. And every single one of them, one after another, after another. And you go on the home worthy YouTube channel and it's, oh, I love her. I want to see more. Oh, look at that yellow and the green and the blue. I mean, people, I've never seen anything like it. It's fantastic. And I mean, it was just like on and on. And so I wonder, what is the disconnect? Are these real people? They are real people. I mean, are these just charm robots? Is this like ChatGPT who just compliments you on every idea you've ever had?

30:37Michael Koenigs:I mean, what is all joking aside? What is the difference between this audience and, I don't know, the people who show up to gripe, which, frankly, I'm much more accustomed to. I'm much more accustomed to the biting edge of people because people can be rough. What do you think? I don't know the answer to that question. And Michael, I don't know if you have an answer to that question, but because so much of what we do is about the person themselves and their story, you don't want to attack somebody who so graciously invited you into their home and has shared their soul with you. Because it's not just about the design and the style.

31:22Michael Koenigs:And I got this couch here and I got this armoire here. it's really more about the person in a way. So I don't know. I mean, I always find it shocking when people are nasty online because, you know, it's like, well, what does your house look like? And what's your story?

31:43Alison Kenworthy:You know, it might be too. I think a part of it is that if you see the tone of the core fan group being positive, then you're reluctant potentially to jump in with the odd man out. And what's interesting too is, Allison and I have put up some, we did a tour of our apartment and people read the comments. If you're the host or reading it, so there certainly can be an insult in there every once in a while in the sense of - How did it go with your place? Were people kind?

32:17Michael Koenigs:Were people nice?

32:18Alison Kenworthy:They loved it. But certainly there were a couple of negative comments and you never forget them. You know, it's like you have like 500 positive comments and the one negative one is the one that sticks you to the core. That's the one you took to bed and you can't sleep. Exactly. I get you. Exactly. So negative comments are a potent thing.

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33:22Michael Koenigs:So it seems as if this cord-cutting movement that took hold years ago and just continues, right? And everybody is trying to figure out what's next for all these networks. They've all scrambled and everyone's moving online and changing. What is the future of media in your mind? Where does this all go?

33:50Alison Kenworthy:I think that we have a future where the storytelling capabilities of individuals can rival movie studios within the next five years, thanks in part to AI. So you now have a whole group of creators that are going to be making very compelling animated films that are going to go direct to YouTube. And then the ability of editors and the iPhone to tell stories that, again, look as cinematic as those that used to cost millions of dollars to make is going to enable a massive generation of quality content. So I think that creates a much more competitive landscape for anyone jumping in. And it's a supply that's going to explode as it already has done as more people start learning how to edit short videos as they're doing on their phones.

34:46Alison Kenworthy:And they all are then trying to make the migration over to YouTube and tell longer stories. And I think that's where a lot of people get hung up. They somehow find it easier to make a short one minute video. and making that leap to telling longer stories, I think is inevitable and is going to be the next big phase. And then the last part of it, I think, is how people consume content, where right now it's on the TV, on the wall or the phone. I do think there's going to be a moment where these Oculus and other avenues allow you to experience these homes in 3D, where you're walking in a tour and able to turn and look around the rooms in full And that is still probably a decade away, but where things are heading.

35:32Michael Koenigs:I was surprised that Apple's Vision Pro didn't capture more audience. We went and tested it and it was pretty fun. And I thought, oh, yeah, for the very thing that you were describing, I can see this audience. But the funny thing is, I don't see that audience actually being the ones that buy that product and put those glasses on, which is the disconnect. And part of that might be a generational thing as much as anything. But I think you're right that that technology is going to offer so many different capabilities to go even deeper into the subject matter that they obviously already love.

36:06Alison Kenworthy:Exactly. And so engrossing. And we thought about the iPhone actually has capabilities of shooting in that kind of like three dimensional aspect. And so we debated on whether to start filming in that way, but held off because there's just not enough people wearing the glasses. and that's the challenge. But you wear glasses already and that helps that hurdle of people who aren't yet as familiar or comfortable putting on glasses. In the design space too, you can imagine designers as they're walking through the room, the ability to automatically see what a different color looks like on the wall while wearing those.

36:42Alison Kenworthy:I think the applications in this home space are enormous beyond the creative side.

36:48Michael Koenigs:Well, exactly. And I think designers taking clients through will just have all of this technology, the clients who perhaps can't visualize as easily or as readily as the designer can. Here, let me show you what this room is going to look like in this color, to your point, and suddenly put the glasses on. There it is. And Allison, I'm wondering, so many people are on the fence about YouTube. And Amber Lewis has just created her channel, and she's going to show you her building her own home on that. And that's her next big endeavor. and Corey Damon Jenkins has created a multi-part series and we know that Catherine Ireland and others are spending time and it sounds like they're doing stuff with you.

37:32Michael Koenigs:It seems like this is a place that designers should be in a huge way, sharing their work, telling everything that people want to know about their process, about how they do what they do. What do they need to hear to help them just take the plunge? Well, I think every creator should be on this platform. YouTube has now surpassed Disney Plus and Netflix in terms of viewership. The Oscars are moving over to YouTube. So it's just at the forefront of streaming. And I think the beauty of the platform is that you don't have to be a professional. And you can create whatever you want and upload it and see what works and see what doesn't.

38:25Michael Koenigs:And you don't need fancy equipment. You could do it with an iPhone and a microphone attachment and a gimbal the way we were doing it six years ago. And it's just about creating that relationship with an audience and building their trust and building a regular cadence of content. I think that's also an important note about the platform is that it likes to know that you will be a regular content creator. So it might be once a week, but they know that at 11 a.m. on a Saturday, you're putting up a new video. And what should people be mindful of in terms of how they're presenting themselves or how they're creating this content?

39:10Michael Koenigs:There must be some do's and don'ts that are helpful from all you've learned. I don't know that there are rules, actually. Because it's such a broad audience and people can catch on in so many different ways. There's such a broad audience. And, you know, there's something for everybody. So say Catherine Ireland wants to take you through one of the famous antique fairs that she visits in France and brings you along on that experience with her. And the episode lasts 60 minutes. It's an hour. You know, most people are probably not going to have the opportunity to go to that market in rural France.

39:50Michael Koenigs:so she's giving them the opportunity to transport them to this place and feel like they're her friend shopping. And for something like that, I don't think it needs to feel heavily edited or produced. You just want to bring the person along with you and share your secrets on how you negotiate or the kinds of things that you like to look for. That might be actually something that's helpful. There should be takeaway information for the viewer. They like to learn something. So, you know, somewhat educational. And that was even taught to us in network news. I mean, people want to walk away from watching something feeling like they've learned something.

40:34Michael Koenigs:So when you have all of these designers with incredible knowledge, well, you know, maybe Corey Damon Jenkins will do an episode or do a video on color selection and picking paint color or how you mix fabrics together. So I think thinking about what the viewer can walk away with and feel like they've learned something is important.

40:59Alison Kenworthy:I think the stamina though, when Disney acquired Maker Studios, it was a$900 million acquisition and we basically were working with the top YouTube creators. And what was so striking is many of them, A, will burn out after a few years just because it is a lot of work to edit videos, period. And so even as they start to get momentum, it is so engrossing that unless you create a broader infrastructure, the burnout rate of superstar YouTube folks are high. And then most quit before the first year. And in fact, the algorithm recognizes it and tends not to even suggest channels until they've, you know, passed a year mark, just so they know, hey, we're going to recommend something that has staying power.

41:51Alison Kenworthy:So it's this thing of you need a, it's, unless you have Allison's stamina of putting out a lot of content that doesn't really resonate, the ability to continue to push forward and iterate to find the little things that are working and then double down on that from a format approach is the key. But once you get to that point it's certainly you're able to build a viable business so if you've got the stamina if

42:15Michael Koenigs:you can survive it if you can hang in there long enough for it to to get the traction uh and and then uh but but it doesn't sound like there was any i mean allison you mentioned the bunny williams video that blew up but it sounds like in general it was just sticking with it and and staying at it And a hundred percent, especially in the beginning, I just, for whatever reason, never gave up. I just, I truly believe there was an audience for this. And I did make a conscious effort to not insert myself into these episodes, which is why I've never been a personality in the pieces because I want them to be able to stand on their own.

42:58Michael Koenigs:And I want to be able to tell stories in far corners of the earth where I don't have to go. Not because I don't want to go, but because in order to really scale this company, I know that I can't be in all of these places. You know, we have two or three shoots a day sometimes with our producers working all over the world. And in order to scale, I knew that I couldn't be in them. And that's fine. And that's how we have managed to grow this company.

43:29Alison Kenworthy:And you mentioned Catherine Ireland and now Martin Lawrence Bullard. We are so excited now to be going beyond home tours and doing what are travel shows effectively. We have Martin's show coming out in the coming weeks for our paid members where it's almost Anthony Bourdain style adventures to Istanbul, Tangier, Paris, where he's taking us inside the homes of his closest friends and discovering how the tastes of those cities and the style behind these doors is just staggering. And you do need to have a personality on YouTube. You can't be flat. And Martin and Catherine and others who have no problem there with the two of them.

44:14Alison Kenworthy:Yeah, exactly. It can really hold folks attention. And we're excited to be telling these kind of deeper, longer stories that run over a course of multiple episodes.

44:23Michael Koenigs:Couldn't agree more. And that's I mean, it seems like I mean, and poor HGTV. They're on the ropes and you're just piling it on and expanding it all these different channels. And I mean, do they go away altogether now and you just take over? And what is there like some formal ceremony where there's just a declaration that Homeworthy has become HGTV? What does that look like?

44:47Alison Kenworthy:Well, we are thrilled that there are a number of months where we're ahead of HGTV on YouTube. And I think it is a fascinating moment where the simple formulas of a DIY look at a house is losing, I think, to this deeper personal stories that come across in what we're doing. And I think so much of the television networks were built on the backs of access on distribution side. And those walls have come down entirely. And so having a cable deal is no longer going to guarantee you high viewership. And so I think that they're having to raise the bar of the stories they're telling and even the length where they're stuck at really 22 minute shows for the most part.

45:35Alison Kenworthy:And when you're able to tell longer stories, which is what we do, and we push it to 45 or even an hour and a half with some of these, that the YouTube algorithm certainly rewards deeper storytelling. And that's where we're not as confined as a television network is.

45:51Michael Koenigs:OK, so as we as we wrap up, where is all of this going? So we've talked about the growth we've talked about. We've got producers all over the world. We're going into homes in all these big European cities and elsewhere. Where where does this we got partnerships with Amazon? Yes, we got. Right. So where where does all of this go? Well, we've just brought on a new vice president of business development who's helping us think big about about homeworthy and how we explore these avenues um and you know i think that there's a real appetite for shopping and for product and for live events and and having in-person you know communal experiences together um and maybe a podcast at one point dennis we will not tread on your waters careful careful we will not we will not come after you dennis maybe i would love if you would be a guest someday, maybe a podcast, who knows.

46:47Michael Koenigs:And I think building out these sub channels that we have. So Homeworthy is one vertical, but you know, we currently have Homeworthy New York, Homeworthy California, Homeworthy South, Homeworthy Gardening we just launched. So Michael can speak more to that, but really building out a more robust offering of sub channels. And Michael, do you want to talk a little bit about that?

47:11Alison Kenworthy:Sure. And I think the The other thing we've just done this past year is built a parent company called Worthy Media Network. And that is not only going to help build up the home-worthy franchises and home-worthy owned channels, but we're identifying best in class YouTubers in the home and design space and helping them grow their channels and monetize their channels at a higher rate. So we recognize the network effect. And this is what Disney, we did well of Synergy where we could promote their channels on Homeworthy. And then you can jump in and see the home renovation project of another designer, potentially with ad flow across both these channels.

47:55Alison Kenworthy:So I think that is on a macro level. Worthy Media is helping designers and home builders and a variety of other channel types grow their presence and figure out YouTube. And I think that's been a broader play, but really going deep local, as Allison mentioned, in various states. And even we launched a Homeworthy England recently. And then also expanding that distribution. We just got a deal with Yahoo and a new airline deal. So you can be flying Icelandic air watching your Homeworthy. YouTube is only one spot. So we've been excited by it all.

48:37Michael Koenigs:Yeah. Well, it sounds like a lot of incoming. And it sounds like a lot of designers should be reaching out to you and saying, hey, can we partner? Yes? Absolutely. We always encourage people to pitch themselves, their homes. Just send us a description of the home and a little bit about you and some photos. We love to discover new spaces that have not been featured before in any kind of publication. And I think that the supply is enormous that's not been touched. And we're always excited to see homes and be pitched. So if you have an outdated image of YouTube, hopefully this conversation will bring people into the future with what it ought to be.

49:26Michael Koenigs:And also, Alison, there's such a huge and diverse audience that your content can catch on in ways you might not realize, in part because people are thinking about the very limited formats that are available to them elsewhere. YouTube sounds like it's this great sort of uncharted horizon. Yes. And just don't quit if your first or second or tenth video doesn't take off. Don't quit if you just keep getting 60 views of those early videos. You just try, try, try again. And you will at some point be rewarded if your content finds its audience. Yes, the audience is out there. That sounds like the big message here.

50:10Michael Koenigs:That's for sure. All right. This has been such a pleasure. Allison, Michael, thank you so much both for making the time. I'm really glad to get to speak with you and learn so much more about what you're doing. Well, thank you so much, Dennis. We're huge fans of yours in this podcast and feel like this is a big moment for us to be on it. So thank you for having us.

50:29Alison Kenworthy:You're such a charmer. I just love the way you understand this business and the sheer volume of people you've talked to has helped us really build a better company. So thanks for the work you do.

50:42Michael Koenigs:Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dan of Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.