Inside Nate Berkus' three decades of success

30:05And, but I'm not a great shop keeper because I have to have things look a certain way. So I'll never forget somebody came in and bought this massive bookcase and wanted it out that day. They were sending their delivery or movers to come pick it up. And I looked at all the smalls that I had assembled on it and displayed so artfully. So perfectly. Yeah. And I was like, can I cancel the sale? And Jessica was like, what are you talking about? No. It was for sale. It had a ticket on it. We ran their credit card you can't keep it just because you don't want to mess and I was like I really don't want to mess but that left the store and the store looked like shit and that was how that worked but I was sitting at my desk and I got a phone call and it was one of the producers from Oprah that said we got your name from one of our other producers who was at a party that you threw at your gallery and we have a small space in Boston that we would love to talk to you about making over, would you do it?

31:08And I said, yes, I would love to do it. And they said, that's great. So we need to bring your plumber, your electrician, your carpenter, everybody, and to Boston to do this project. And I said, okay, when were you thinking? And they said, tomorrow. And I said, can I call you back? Can I have like 15 minutes? And they said, yeah, yeah, of course, but definitely call us back because we need to book this. We've got to get the crew there and all this stuff. And so I hung up the phone and I sat at my desk and I remember this moment and I called her back and she didn't know me and I didn't know her.

31:42And I said, okay, so here's what I want to say to you. Is there somebody at Harpo whose job it is to get stuff for free? And she said, well, not really, but we have like a business development division. I was like, who is that? She said, well, that's Harriet Seitler. And I said, okay, can I talk with Harriet Seitler? She said, well, I'm producing this. I didn't know Jenna was like my age, by the way, and we're both like 10. And she's just very official and scary on the phone, still is, I might add. And I said to her, you know, Jenna, I think we need to loop in Harriet Seitler because we need to say, you know, I have a great relationship with my plumber and a great relationship with my electrician and my mill worker, but they're not leaving their work to drive to Boston to do a makeover segment on any show.

32:31If they would, it'd probably be your show, but they're not doing it anyway. So my idea is I think you need to reach out to a Menards or a Lowe's or a Home Depot because those places have kitchen cabinets and countertops and everything. And they know, I would imagine, every decent contractor, they've probably got a name, you know, electricians, plumbers, whatever. So I think Harpo needs to do a deal with one of those big national things. And that way, that'll help us in Boston. But what if this goes really well? Like, what if you and I have the best time? And what if Oprah really likes this? What if we get to do this again?

33:16Then we're all set up for Kansas City and Cleveland and Seattle and, you know, whatever. And she's like, okay, that's actually a really strong idea. So that's what they did. And I got on a plane and I went to Boston and I did this small space makeover and it was amazing. And that's what really started it all. And what it led to for me was two things. It led to this massive cog in Oprah's brand that I always knew I needed to protect. that I couldn't go out and go on star search or I needed to stay with my metier. I wanted to be in design anyway. But what it led to was my first book deal. And the book deal led to the first product deal.

34:02And the product deal led to the first endorsement deal. And that endorsement deal led to 50 other endorsement deals. And I gained a reputation among all these ad sales buyers and big brands and things like that, that I was somebody that would maintain my own authenticity and fight for my own editorial control. Even when Oprah said to me one day, I don't think you can do a whole house from Walmart. And I said, well, I don't think I can either. And then we went on Walmart's brand new website, which is what they were trying to promote. and they had furniture and all these things. And I called her back and I said, I think we should try this.

34:47I think it's kind of funny. No one even knows how to decorate a house online. Let's see if we can do it. So it was such an experimental time. I learned so much about myself. I learned so much about business. But most importantly, I learned that I had to protect myself and how I was being positioned and how I would step out in front of the camera. not from Harpo, because they wanted me protected more than anyone, but from everybody else. And I learned how to say no. I really learned how to give a hard no. And I still give a lot of hard no's. So, and is that what turned out to be such an important part of maintaining?

35:28Because I want to talk about how you learned this branding sensibility, this authenticity that you were talking about. We used to just think that one was just authentic. One went out and one presented themselves as themselves. Now it's you have to work to be authentic and you have to be mindful of that. Well, you have to work to be authentic, Dennis, because there's so many opportunities to not be. Exactly. So tell me about that. So back in the day, pre-social media, pre-internet, whatever, it was very clean. A plumbing company would hire you to go to the kitchen and bath show and demonstrate their new product or stand there and get across the three most important bullet points that they, as a brand, felt important for their collection.

36:15And you would be hired and you'd go and do that. And there's nothing wrong with that. No shame in the game. Why not? What changed was that everyone's an influencer. They want your followers now and And they want to link everything to a direct sale. And you as the brand have to protect the information that you're giving to your followers. You can't just give them everything just because you have 2 million followers or whatever you have. You have to be an editor behind the scenes around that. You have to create, use your social media as almost your own magazine that you're allowing in the pages of that what you feel really is good for those people who follow you to know.

37:04My way is you cannot take every deal. You can't, you can take a lot of deals. And as you said, and you have, right? Yes, and I have and I continue to. I can't wait. But you also have to be like I did a campaign for Nicorette gum because I was using Nicorette gum. So it made sense for who you were. Yes. So I was like, yes, I would love to do a campaign for Nicorette gum because it helped me. I don't smoke. I haven't touched a cigarette in years. In the product licensing world, it's all about compromise. You and I have talked about this before, but it's very much about compromise. I used to bet the towel buyer at Target in their basement where they set up your fake aisle.

37:48I used to bet them what colors I thought would sell and what wouldn't. It's not that I had the choice to say I am not doing those colors, but I tried to figure out how to make it fun. If that color is in the top three, I'll take you to dinner. If it's not in the top three, you don't get to pick next time we're standing here. So you have to respect your partnerships. You have to respect their experience. You have to respect what they know of their customer. But then at the same time, you have to remember that they brought you in because they don't know exactly. And that it's your job to figure out what is going to be exciting and what's going to be ahead of the trend curve or ignore the trend curve.

38:33And that is a responsibility at 53 that I think I'm pretty good at now. So you have been doing it for so long, and you are exceptional in that you have been famous, for lack of a better word, for a long time. And you have been able to maintain this authenticity that we've just been talking about, but also this level of integrity and also an approachability. You're a genuinely— 100%. Right? Right? 100%. Listen, I have really decent manners, and I'm a nice guy. Yes. It's not really that more complicated. I mean, I don't want - But that's so hard to do in a world that is - I don't find it hard to do.

39:21I think it's so... Listen, no one is dumb. I've never talked down to a soul. I mean, maybe the puppy, but I don't think that counts because it's like a human soul, let's say. The truth is that grace goes such a long way in any business, but especially in design, because for some reason, people don't expect it. And when I meet a young designer, like I did at NYSID when I was given an honorary degree and I spoke to the graduating class that year, Sebastian, who's a designer that graduated that year and went to Juan to work for Andre Malone. And we just both did a project across the hall from each other at Hudson Yards here in New York City.

40:07And, you know, I met him that night and he was like this charming, nice, bright eyed, interested, not acting like he knew everything, which would have been ridiculous because he's eight, but like open, curious. like those are the qualities that you want to invite into your home to create an interior that that represents you and your family you don't want to invite somebody to your kitchen table that makes you feel like you're stupid because you don't know everything that they know you know and my advice to all these young designers who are starting out who built this amazing instagram feed or not, or graduating from these great schools like RISD and NYSID and all these amazing places where you can get such a strong design education is, that's all great.

41:02But be the guy or the person that when they see your name on the schedule that afternoon, they don't want to die that they have to spend four hours with you. Conversely, they see your name, you've booked that meeting, and they know they're going to have a really nice afternoon. Productive, but a nice afternoon, because everybody just wants a nice afternoon. But to that point about social media, and as much as everybody is trying to figure out how to run their design firm, so many young people especially, but everyone across the board is trying to figure out how to present themselves on social media, what their brand really is, who they are, and how they want to present themselves.

41:44And you seem to have that figured out. And I wonder how you think about it. And if there was a point where somebody helped inform you about that. I was so reticent to social media. I remember years ago, Ashton Kutcher, who was like an early investor, came to Harpo in Chicago and sat all of us down and told us how important Instagram was. It literally looked like the Star Wars bar. It was me, Mehmet Oz, Dr. Phil. I was like, oh, God. And I was like, this is so dumb. No one is going to care about what sandwich I ate. I heard you were very skeptical about social media. I couldn't even believe that it was a real thing.

42:24However, I will say my management team said to me, you can't ignore this any longer. I will say that now that it is a thing and I shoot with my team once a week, We have an editorial content schedule that I approve, that I sometimes follow and sometimes say, I'm not doing that. That's super dumb. But I've been on board now for several years to the degree that recently I did pull my whole social media team together. And I said, look, and this was before I was working on my book, Foundations. I said, I'm the expert. I've been doing this for 30 years. I don't want to be the cool, funny guy doing TikTok videos.

43:07I don't care. I'm not an influencer. With all due respect, what we're seeing out there is a lot of great editing, in my opinion. These are people that have never installed a room and they don't know the 5 ,000 purchase orders and details and review of shop drawings and everything that goes into installing a room. And I do. So I want you to focus on making me appear as such. the perfect example i shot an episode of a of a show for hgtv as a guest judge with tyler cameron and taisha adams the other day from the bachelor and they do this whole thing where they like they talk at the same time that the tape is talking i don't really get it i had to do it like 80 times on their feeds?

44:02Sure. As a co-post with them? Sure. But for me at 53 years old in my cashmere cardigan to go out and be like, hey guys, it's just not me. It might have been me at 25, but I wasn't 25 when Instagram came out. So the authenticity is partly due to the team saying, A, you have to do this and B, we're going to create an editorial calendar for you and you're going to weigh in. And then now, the last probably eight years, seven years, I've paid much closer attention. And I do give them direction seasonally to say, this is really what I'm interested in. This is how I wish to be perceived and positioned.

44:49Now you guys figure out what that looks like on these four dates that you have reserved to film.

45:00We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Lalloy. I want to tell you about a special guest joining me in November. Lalloy launched its collaboration with Amber Lewis in 2021, and the designers' textiles have made their way into homes across the country. All next month, you'll hear parts of my conversation with Amber about her latest collections and so much more. You can explore the full Amber Lewis and Lalloy collaboration at laloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And make sure to follow at laloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok.

45:40And many, many designers say that Instagram, interestingly, has become one of the biggest new project generators for them. Is that the same that you are finding? Is that where so many people are discovering you? Well, for everything. I mean, I don't go to somebody to try a new place to get my hair cut if I don't go on their Instagram page first. I won't eat a hamburger if I'm not on their Instagram page and hearing what Katie Lee had to say about it or whatever. I mean, 1 ,000 % people pick design firms from Instagram. So I want to tie that back to your design business before I talk to you about the book, because I want to talk to you about 30 years and everything that you were thinking about with this with this book.

46:24But tell me, so often when we're talking to designers, another thing beyond the social media strategy that everyone's trying to figure out is where are we today with our charging strategy? Are we hourly? Do we have a design fee? Do we have a markup? And where have you and your firm landed with all of that over the years? We have had the exact same structure with rate increases for the last 25 years. And it is net cost plus 30%. That's a scale as well. If it's construction material or plumbing, we go down. We charge hourly. I'm the most expensive. Lauren Buxbaum Gordon, who is my partner and runs the Chicago office, is the second most expensive.

47:18and then it goes down there from there all the way to design assistance we do not do flat fee um we have but what it's kind of dumb because what we do is we add up all of that right and we just say okay you're paying us the exact same thing right but when we do a flat fee rarely the scope is so detailed that if somebody asks the team for a soap dish, we're like, hold on, we're outside of the scope. We weren't going into that bathroom. But if we're going into that bathroom, then we have to redo our flat fee, guys. So I've just been doing this for too long. There's been too many, and I feel like we've earned the right to charge the way we prefer to charge.

48:09Well, so to that point of earning the right to charge what you charge, we're not showing up for less than this kind of starting point at this point now for your firm? Or how do you think about that? No, that's not – I mean, we do have like an internal minimum that we all talk about. I waive it all the time, depending on the project, and it drives everybody nuts. But, you know, for instance, right now we have this young couple that bought their first apartment uptown and I wanted to do it. And at the same time, we're working with this couple in Miami who have an amazing apartment full of additions of new that I want to know more about.

48:52And I wanted to do that. So, you know, at this point, it's more about what we're going to take from the project, not only monetarily. How exciting it is for the staff. We're not a firm with a signature look. We've never been. I love working in a bunch of different styles. I love applying everything we have learned about scale and materiality and space planning and storage solutions and all of that to many different aesthetics. So right now, especially since I've opened the New York office, which is staffed with a bunch of really creative, brilliant people, I want to take the projects that we're going to learn from and that we're really going to enjoy.

49:38It doesn't mean that if somebody has almost no money to spend, that that's the right model for us with our project managers and our designers and their design assistants and me at the head of the creative. That doesn't really work if you don't have an appropriate budget to hire a 30-year-old firm like mine. But if you're really charming and really great and I'm obsessed with you and the project seems really interesting, I've been known to be like, come on guys, let's just do it. And, and those projects have been really fun. We've done like model units, for instance, we've done two and we did this building on West 13th street where we were charged with picking out all the finishes for the common areas and all of the units and then furnishing the model unit, which we did with 80 % vintage and antique auction fines again, credibility.

50:28But you know, those projects are new for us and they were super exciting. A$25 million penthouse in Hudson Yards across the hallway from Sebastian. That was great. We would have never been approached for that in Chicago, but we're being approached for it here in New York. And I like doing that. Quick turnaround, just presenting to the team. You get to use beautiful things and craft these interiors that are instant, which brings me back to my TV makeover days. Well, and speaking of that, I mean, it seems as though in thinking about where you most want to go next, it seems like when you had your own show, you didn't love it or it didn't excite you.

51:15No, I couldn't. I was miserable, Dennis. You were miserable. Miserable. My talk show? Yes. Miserable every day. Every day. There were certain things that really mattered. I could name them on one hand. It was an environment where everybody was working so hard. The best ideas didn't make it through. And we were catering to focus groups. And I've talked to everybody that has launched their own talk show since me. had a conversation with Bethany Frankel, went to dinner before she had her talk show. And I was like, don't let them turn you into something that the focus groups want you to be because you got this show because you're you and that's what they're going to want to see no matter what they say.

52:02And immediately it was like, you could see the coaching, the this, or the influence of the network, the influence of whatever it was. And it's like, there are so many people out there that do a great job. I'm not sure I'm one of them. I don't know if I was born to be a talk show host. My husband, probably. Probably. He'd probably be great. But I'm interested and really deeply passionate about what I'm interested and deeply passionate about. And that does not include how to make chicken. Well, so to that point about what you're really passionate about, so often when I speak to designers, they tell me, oh, listen, Dennis, I am trying to get some other gig so that I can get away from these clients who are just draining every last bit of positive energy from me.

52:51And if I can have enough product license deal or whatever it is, they're looking for the off-ramp. They're looking for the escape hatch. But I have the off-ramp and I'm still here. I know. Well, that's my point. I've had the off-ramp for 20 years. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I like it. I really love the interaction. I really love the problem-solving aspect of it. Like I said, I love the sociological aspect of it. And I love the, it's still deeply rewarding, the research, the creativity, the new ideas, the challenges in execution, the getting to know people and lifting them up in our way. by crafting this room that they feel pretty in and accomplished in.

53:39I had it years ago. The off-ramp came really early for me. And I remember once years ago, someone asked me, you have books and you have all these licensing deals and you have all this stuff and you have endorsement deals and all these things. Why do you still pick up the phone when someone's sofa is late? And my answer was, that's my job. I don't think I could do a great job at any of those other things if I wasn't still connected to the day-to-day of the design firm. I'm not sure what I would do with my ideas and what I would do with my time. I'm so not bored. I'm not burnt out. So why not? How have you not gotten burned out from it all?

54:17And what do you do to maintain everything that one sees about Nate Berkus? I have what I consider to be the best team in the business. And that is how I'm able to do what I love to do. because I'm buoyed and surrounded by a team of people in three offices who really care and want to work here. They want to be part of the culture that not just I have created, but Lauren has created in the Chicago office that the clients help us create by sending us, you know, 16 pints of Jenny's ice cream as a thank you note. And like all of us are like standing at the kitchen island with spoons. I have, I think, created a culture that is happy, that people feel seen and heard and celebrated.

55:08And that was an old Oprah lesson too. You learned that from her. 100%. Everybody wants to be seen. Everybody wants to be heard. She's said it 65 billion times. Right. That's the key. Everyone wants to be seen. Everyone wants to be heard. Make them feel that way. And by seen is, yes. And by seen, you want to be seen for what you're great at. And you want to be heard for what you're not great at. And when you're seen for what you're great at, then like I talk about how Lauren runs the Chicago office all the time because it's so genius. She discovers what people are great at and that's their job.

55:39And when they're bad at it, she gives that to somebody else so that you're not making somebody. When I was at the auction house all those years ago, just where this conversation started, they would make me like catalog estates of Toby jugs and dolls and those gross rugs in the basement with spiders and whatever. And it's like, I was suicidal. That's not the best use of what I can do. And Leslie looked at that as my first boss. And she looked at me and she said, yeah, you suck. You're awful. My God, poor Colleen Uland, who you're supposed to be typing letters to the trust and estates attorney. I would die if I were Colleen Uland too, but I'm not going to fire you.

56:19your job is to make everything look pretty and your job sir is to sell so we've taken that with us lauren's taken it i've taken it it's like to be seen in a company in a company culture especially in a creative company culture is to be celebrated for what you're good at and to be honest about what you're not i can't do everything in this office you know i certainly can't i can't even make a spreadsheet, Dennis. I don't want to. I'm not, you know, a spreadsheet and chicken are nose. That's somebody else's. That's somebody else's cake. Somebody else, I'll eat it. Right. But I don't want to know how to make it.

56:55And I certainly don't want to touch it when it's pink. Now, I've got to get you out of here. So, let's talk about the book because one of the things I'm curious about as I hold up your book and I notice that there isn't a beautiful project on the cover of this book or an image of you and the family? I believe that these are some different flooring options and some different textures. Flooring, wall covering. Right, wall covering. Yeah. Flooring, wall covering, and then stone. It was by intention, the cover, because first of all, meaning no disrespect to anybody else's design book, and I have an extensive library and I'm a real fan of having someone's work in a book format, not in a saved file.

57:45But I will say that the design books all look like very similar lately. It's that square within a square with the embossed border and then the image of the interior and the writing and on the top and the name on the bottom. And sometimes it's off center and sometimes it's bigger and whatever. And I just didn't want that at all. I also wanted the book to be really handsome so it could just sit on a coffee table and look good and not be loud in a room. So I wanted it to be a little bit quiet, you know, and that was really the impetus behind the design. And what was the impetus behind the book itself?

58:22In the book, you talk about you couldn't have written this book earlier in your career, but tell me what made you want to. So I didn't want to write this book. It wasn't the book that I pitched initially. The book I pitched initially, and I thought this was such a genius idea and I was such a visionary, was that I wanted, you know, like the Fiden guides or the Asseline guides to like the hotels or furniture makers or whatever. I wanted to do a box set that would be sold as a set, but also sold individually, broken down by room or area of the home. And in each volume, I wanted to pour into everything I've learned over the last 30 years.

59:03Doris Cooper from Simon & Schuster, who used to work for Clarkson Potter and lost my first book because she didn't want to pay enough money for it. And I brought this idea to her and she said, that's literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And she's like, do you know the price of paper? I'm worried about one cover, let alone, and you're telling me that you want it all to be inexpensive. You want each one to be$15 or less. And I was like, well, yeah, I know my market. I don't want a$150 monograph. That's not me. So she said, I love the idea, but we're putting it in one cover. You can do everything you just pitched me, but we're not splitting it into volumes.

59:45And so that's how we built the book. And I worked with Heather Somerville, who was a former Domino editor, who's a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant person. And we worked together on it with my team. It became apparent that we weren't going to save anything, that we were just going to put every idea wisely and in an organized fashion between this single cover. And I wanted the book to not be$100. I just kept saying, I hope it's not$100. It's 400 pages of our best, our absolute best. But it's, you know, I don't know how much it is on Amazon. It launches November 18th, but it's like around 50, 55.

1:00:27So the point was, is that I didn't win my initial battle with Doris Cooper. Doris Cooper won the battle, but we both won in the end because it's been such a pleasure for me to go out and talk about this book. it's literally practical information that's done almost in a magazine format that's really easy to read and easy to use and you can flip to bathrooms if you're redoing your bathroom you don't care what i have to say about kitchens or closets or if you're going to the container store on a saturday and you want to see what a million dollar dressing room looks like and get some ideas for how you can copy that or use that as inspiration then you can go to the page on storage and closets and laundry rooms.

1:01:10So it's as thorough as we could possibly be. It does represent 30 years of work. And it's just a really cool book that is a thank you note on my behalf to anyone over the last 30 years who's ever bought a bath mat with my name on it. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the ride. I really am. And I'm still going. Well, and that's what's remarkable. And I know that I have to let you go. And there's so much more that I want to talk about with you, including... Well, come on anytime, by the way. You know that. Well, you're nice to say. Like, if you want to co-host, you and I could just do this together.

1:01:47We could talk about things that have no interest whatsoever to any of your listeners. I'm great at that, too. I would love that. I'm enormously grateful to you for making the time to talk with me. It is always a pleasure. And I hold you up as someone that I very much hope others will emulate as they think about how to traverse the world and life. I really do. That's extremely kind. And you are one of my favorite people to sit down with anywhere. So whatever you need or want from me, and I can speak for Jeremiah as well. I know he's game. The dynamic shifts a bit when I have to hear what he has to say, but we could muddle through it, I'm sure.

1:02:31But thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate your support too. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda.

1:03:10I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.