Joanna Gaines went from a "no" person to a "why not?" person. It changed everything

0:02This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Joanna Gaines. It's difficult to summarize Joanna's job description in one word. Together with her husband Chip Gaines, she opened a home goods shop, Magnolia Market, in the early 2000s. But it wasn't until the Gaineses ended up on TV a decade later that Joanna became a star. Since then, she's built an empire, ranging from product lines to a TV network to a retail and hospitality compound in Waco, Texas. Along the way, she's been everything from designer to baker to shopkeeper to entrepreneur.

0:53I spoke with Joanna about relying on intuition and faith to make business decisions, why she's returning to TV with a new show, and how going from a no person to a why not person changed everything.

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2:14Committed to sustainability, Harpen & Forbes utilizes natural fibers, meticulously hand-weaving each piece to the exact dimensions of your windows for a perfect fit. Beyond window coverings, they also design an exquisite range of statement wall coverings and Belgian linens. Planning a visit to High Point for Spring Market? Be sure to experience the latest Spring-Summer 2025 creations from Hartman & Forbes at the Wesley Hall Showroom, including a new collaboration with renowned designer Barbara Berry. or visit HartmanForbes.com to find a luxury showroom near you. And now, on with the show. So I was thinking about the last time that you and I were together at High Point Market.

3:03Yep. And I feel as though you were feeling very thoughtful at the time. You had a lot that it sounded like you were turning over in your head, yes? Dennis, was that? That was last year. Was that April, May, right? That was before the summer, right? That's right. You had on your mind both the business and your daughter's prom night. You were doing your daughter's hair. Yes. I had to get back for Ella's prom night. Yes. Yes. But I remember because I think when we connected last year, you had asked, okay, well, what's next? And I said, Dennis, I have no idea. But I do know, ask me when I get on the other side of summer.

3:46I think for the first time in what, 20 plus years, I decided to take this kind of sabbatical or this two to three month stint off to where I could just get outside the business, really just get time to think bigger picture, more vision. And so we just kind of said, we told the entire team, I'm going to be gone. Chip and I will be gone this whole summer to just hunker down with the kids, to get vision for things. And so I think I felt good that it was actually happening. So when I saw you, I was like, I'll let you know what comes of that. So here we are now, what, a year later? Yes, exactly. But I know I was excited because I feel like for me and Chip, it was this intentional time we were setting to just like regain our footing, make sure our foundation is set so that we can dream about all that's to come.

4:41I just love Chip's kind of mandate. We have to set time outside of our daily, you know, schedule to really dream about this. And in all honesty, you know, I'm in a phase of life where the next four years I will see all of my oldest children go from high school to college. And so, you know, so much has happened in the last 10 plus years that I, as a mother, I'm like that summer, those summer months for me as I'm prepping the kids for college, as we're moving out, as we're setting up, like I need that time emotionally. I want to be with them. So that's kind of going to be the new rhythm for us until they're all in, you know, and then I'll have this nice long break of that because crew, my youngest is six, but that's definitely the new season of life we're in.

5:26One of the things that you said to me the last time we were together tied to this conversation that we're having now is you talked about in your early years, the dream of being a newscaster. You thought to yourself, I'm very strategic. I'm thinking about where I'm going to go. And you described yourself as a bit of a no person. You were nervous about saying yes to a lot of things and you weren't a big risk taker. Then along comes Chip in your life. Mr. Risk taker, Mr. Let's jump right in. Let's get that houseboat randomly and a lot of other things that came along the way. And then suddenly, recently, it sounds like finding yourself saying, okay, what are we really doing here?

6:09What are all these things we're saying yes to? And how are we thinking about growing this business in a way that feels genuine to what's really important to you and to the mission and manifesto that you've always laid out for yourself? and for the team. So where do I start, Dennis? I can go way back to the beginning. You tell me where you want me to jump in, and I can kind of start from there. Well, I want to briefly, you know, I was thinking about this conversation, Joanna, and I feel like everybody feels like they know you. If they know anything about you, they feel a close connection to you.

6:51They think they know your story or who you are or what you really are about. But I do want to tell people who might be less familiar, right? Because it is this remarkable journey and it is this incredible success, a very different success. I was looking at that picture of you outside of the CBS television network taken last year, I think, right? And you were thinking back to, you had interned at CBS back when Dan Rather was working on a show, if I recall. And so, I mean, there was a time where there was a different path. Yeah. And I grew up, I was the middle daughter. So three girls, I was the middle.

7:32So I feel like I was always the peacemaker. My father had always joked, oh, I never got a son. And he loved his three girls. I mean, he's a daddy. We were all daddy's girls. but he always joked, I'm in the wrong business with three daughters. I'm in the tire business. And so somewhere early on in my little mind, you know, for me, my father was my hero. So I was like, Ooh, I want to, I want to please them. I want to make them happy. I'll be the one that raises my hand and says, dad, you build that business and I'll be the one to take over it. So I worked for my father at his tire shop, which is tire and automotive firestone for 10 years.

8:10I was his bookkeeper. And in that process, I also had this like dream to be like on the news. I loved this idea of just broadcast journalism. I went to school for it at Baylor. And then in all of that, I was doing commercials for my father. So I saw how all this was working. I was like, I'm going to have business over here. I'm going to own a tire shop one day. And then I'm going to also get to do commercials and media and advertising. So I always kind of had both of these dreams because for me, like you said, I was not a risk taker, but I was a planner. So as long as I had everything planned out and I could process it and be prepared for it, I was going to be okay.

8:49And so my senior year, I landed an internship in New York city. And you're talking about, like I was a major homebody. I never wanted to leave my parents. I was just, you know, I was that daughter. I'm so close to my parents, but my parents really encouraged me. You need to go do this internship. I go to New York city and what happens now I had studied for four years, broadcast journalism. I had this amazing internship at 48 hours with CBS. And I realized as I was doing the job, I don't think I actually want to do this. Um, as I was doing my internship, but it was like on day two, Dennis. So I was like, how am I going to tell my parents that, you know, the education that they helped pay for is now I don't want to do it anymore.

9:36Well, and what hit you right away that you didn't want to do it? What was it immediately you responded to? You know, for me, I'm very intentional about instinct and like what I'm feeling. And like kind of, I've always thought about it for me, this thing I have just with like my soul. Like is my soul being quenched by this or does it feel like it's dying a little bit? And there's no thing about news. It was just the way that I couldn't carry that stuff. Like I wasn't built to carry the heaviness that a lot of those stories had. And for me, you know, as a 18, 19 year old girl, it hit me pretty hard.

10:16And I didn't know that that was a side of it, which I should have known it's news. Like what was I expecting? I also just missed home so much. I was homesick. But the beauty of life is that sometimes the things that get you to one point may not be actually what you need to carry with you in the future. but because you're there, you may find something you would have never found because you didn't take that step. So now I'm in New York, I'm missing home. What do I do on the weekends? I find these local boutiques and I go into these shops and it makes me feel at home. I feel that they're playing the music.

10:52They're lighting the candle. The displays are so intentionally set. And I just wanted, it was in the winter. I just wanted to stay in there until they kicked me out because I felt the sense of home. I felt known for a second in the biggest city. And as lost as I felt from a career and a degree, something about being in those places made me feel at home. And so that was the dream that started in New York City in my heart. When I got back, I kind of wrote this thing down. One day I want to have a shop that makes people feel at home because when I needed that feeling and I stepped in, it really, it did something to me.

11:30And so that's when the dream of Magnolia started, even though I couldn't articulate it back in 2000, that's what was happening was I was laying one thing down, but picking up another thing. But Dennis, like you said, I hated risk. So to me to own a business, to go outside of my father's business was too risky. So that was a quiet dream. I wrote it down and I told no one about it. So for three years, I was planning on, okay, my dad's going to retire at this point. I'm going to then take over and I'm going to be a woman who owns a tire shop. All of those men, I know all about the parents. So that's really what was happening.

12:10But behind the scenes, there was this little girl that had another dream, but was too scared to voice it because I didn't know what to do with it. Well, then of course, along comes Chip. and when we were almost engaged, I think we were engaged. I told him about this notebook I had where I wrote down all my dreams. And when he saw him, he couldn't believe, I had three. I said, one day I want to own a bakery. One day I want to own a little boutique. And one day I want to own a spa. And I had the business plan. I had what I was going to, you know, everything from like what I wanted to carry and how, like just the, the, the intention behind every business chip was kind not blown away and dumbfounded.

12:50And like, I don't get why you wouldn't do one of these three. And I said, well, Chip, because I have to take over my dad's tire shop. You know, so it was in that moment that he encouraged me to go for it. Even though I said, Chip, what my dad is handing me is kind of, there's risk to it, but he set it up well. This is like, he's handing me this on a silver platter. And I said, these other things could fail. He goes, well, if they fail, you learn a lot. And then on the next one, you won't fail. So he kind, he, he, for me, he took that veil away of fear and almost gave me the sense of like empowerment.

13:26Like, well, if you fail, who cares? We'll do better on the next one. And I never looked at it like that. I always looked at it as if you fail, you have no other chances you're done where with that freedom, it actually like opened my eyes. I had the conversation with my dad. He was so gracious. And of course encouraged me to do that. So when Chip and I got married in 2003, we bought a little building, renovated it, and opened up Magnolia. And that was my first little dream come true. So I got this master's degree by working with my father in business. And so that's what I just love. And then fast forward to what was it, 2019, when we launched Magnolia Network.

14:06Again, all the stuff I learned in broadcast journalism, I could apply to building a network and storytelling. And so I feel very grateful for that journey, even though there was a lot of pivots and it didn't feel like in the moment I was actually going forward. I felt like I was going backwards, but that's not actually what happens in real life. And so I've now changed that life of being a no person to a why not? And I give that to Chip because that's the way he lives. As Chip would say, he's created a little monster because now I'm just like, let's say yes to this and that. No, I think we've got enough.

14:47Well, and it's so funny to me that you still describe yourself, even your Instagram profile, you describe yourself as a homebody and a shopkeeper at heart. You're like I'd rather be home or I'd rather be in the shop making people feel welcome. It's the core of who I am is I love to be comfortable. I want to be comfortable and I love other people to feel comfortable. And so, and I always nod back to those shopkeeper days when it was just me in that shop in order to pay all the bills, I had to make$250 a day, you know? And so, um, those days I just feel like are what grounded me the most, but also with dreams, it's one thing to dream about something, but it's also then the difference now that I see as I try to encourage other people, go for your dream.

15:37There's also the knowledge that comes with what goes with that dream. So it's not just, I'm dreaming about opening a coffee shop one day. You have to have the knowledge of like the business side of it too. So, or if you don't, then hiring someone who's really well-versed in that so that you can be the creator and the dreamer. Some people are born with both of those talents where they're operational and they're visionary and dreamer. So I think for me, it's now, as I say, I say it in a very cautious way, but optimistically, which is if you have a dream that you want to live out, make sure you know the full scope of the dream so that you're prepared for what's to come.

16:18Which I was never prepared for any of this. Speaking of saying that, I'm like, well, I didn't know any of this was going to happen with that one. yes.

16:30We're taking a quick break to remind you about Hartman and Forbes. This spring, Hartman and Forbes unveiled a new collaboration with internationally renowned designer Barbara Berry, celebrating the artistry of light, texture, and the timeless beauty of nature in a collection of hand-woven window coverings and natural wall coverings. If you're attending High Point Spring Market, experience this collection in person, along with their latest Spring-Summer 2025 designs at the Wesley Hall Showroom. To discover other unique collaborations by Hartman and Forbes and register for your trade account, visit hartmanforbes.com.

17:08And now, back to the show.

17:15So you ended up doing a show yourself and that became wildly popular. And whether you accidentally or not got associated with these specific design aesthetics, right, that people connect with you and all the people that think that you created modern farmhouse or you created this whole look and style. And I know that you probably feel like you've very much moved on from so much of what people still associate with your early days and how they see that. But I wonder now, all these years later, how do you think about that? You know, I think it's fascinating because I think, you know, when you don't have language for like if for people who are a bit removed from like design and that world and that language.

18:15When I look back, I think what resonated with people beyond the modern farmhouse trend was this idea of just casual comfort down to earth living that felt just comfortable and felt also timeless. I mean, you know, when you think about shiplap, which was one of the buzzwords during our time on Fixer, you know, we're talking about, you know, here we are in Waco, Texas, these houses that we were working on that are late 1800s, early 1900s in Texas. Part of the construction was shiplap was behind the drywall. So when we discovered that, it was in that moment of time where we were shooting Fixer. And what then happened is because all of our clients were real clients that were actually waiting for a renovation that our construction company would then tackle, they would all say, I want shipwap.

19:06And so, you know, at the end of the day, as much as I wanted to impose what I want to do on their house, I was working for the client. And then we were highlighting that on Fixer Upper. So, yeah, I think I did get known for that modern farmhouse. I still live in that same farmhouse. It still has shiplap, you know, so it's true to like the story of our home and our family, like where we live. So there's nothing about it that I like don't love. It's like, again, it's in my house. It's more when you get maybe pinned to one specific style. But again, the way I look at it is people didn't know how to articulate what it was that was resonating with them.

19:46So it just came in the form of it's modern farmhouse, which is a specific style. I love the farmhouse style. I'm living it. It's my home. But I also love for other people, it's truly like, what's your actual story that you're wanting to tell? And if you love the ship map and you love those down-to-earth elements, how can we tie that into your story, but also stay true to the style of your home so that what we end up making in the end is truly magical for you and your family? And that's the challenge I love. And I want to talk to you about where being a designer falls into all the other many job descriptions that you have with being a shopkeeper and having a network and all of these other things, all of which, again, as we were saying earlier, came as the result of saying yes to all of these opportunities that presented themselves.

20:38and now it sounded like this need to step back that you and Chip wanted to do and to take a little break from, in part to spend time with family, but also to perhaps get a little bit, from a distance, a better look at what all of this is. And you were talking to me last time we were together about this notion of growth for growth's sake, And you didn't want to just say yes to things because you wanted to understand where does this fit in what you so often describe as this making space for meaningful moments in life and home, which is such a key part of how you come at the world. So one thing I want to say is like from the very beginning, what I was super thankful for with just owning Magnolia, when it was a small little retail store, that experience, we did not make hardly any.

21:41I mean, it was kind of a breakeven deal, honestly. But what that experience taught me was to really hone in on my instincts. I always second guess myself before because the second guessing was, shoot, I didn't go to school for this. And so what the years in that little shop did to me was really help me go with my gut instinct and go more on feeling than maybe fact when it comes to design. And then as I moved into taking that retail experience, because when the guests would come into my store, they would say, can you do this in my home? well then i'd go in their home and dennis for the first couple years i would be like freaking out as the lady was like what would you do as the woman would say what would you do here i would honestly go i have no idea in my brain but i'd be like come on joe and it was like this practice of having a thought having an instinct and just being confident and so what that taught me prepared me for then fixer upper which then now you're doing this on a national level and everyone's watching you.

22:48So now instead of me going, Oh, what is the person in Kansas who was watching fixture? Are they going to think, I don't know what I, you know, instead I knew Joe, you have to get all that out of your mind. What does the client want and what is your instinct saying? So that helped me practice that muscle of honing in that instinct. Um, and then as that moved to, like you said, with food, our restaurants, our bakery, everything I do now starts from a design approach. Like I'm thinking about it from a design lens. So when I'm biting into that cupcake, it's missing something. It's missing that layer of crunch because of what I know in design.

23:27And so like you said, Dennis, when I saw you, we were really at a point where I think now we're going on, that's 21 years of doing Magnolia. We've never taken a break. It really physically hit us. I would say last year where we were physically lacking vision for what was next. We felt like when people would ask us, even our team, Hey y 'all, we need to work towards what's next. We'd almost be like, what do you mean? What's what's, what about all this? What else do you need? There's a lot, but to our teams, like, you know, for them, it's like when you're working, there's got, what are we working towards?

24:07Even if it was, this is all we're doing. Let's make this 100 % as excellent as possible. That would be enough for them. But I think for us, we didn't even know. And that was that pivotal moment that Chip said, we're pausing, Joe, because as the CEOs, as the founders of this business, we have got to lead on what's next. And I think I was just, I was proud of Chip for kind of mandating that. And so our kind of break started June 1st. We had three months to where we were just as much as we could get out of our minds as far as the operations and all the things that we were so involved in with our business.

24:47As that started to kind of work out of our system and as we trusted our team, they had it. We could start to breathe again and see again. One of my favorite moments that was so pivotal for me as a mother, but also as a business owner, was my daughter. My oldest daughter was in on a lot of these conversations before our break in June that I was having with the team. She wanted to intern, basically. She was interning with me. So she'd be in these meetings where I was like, y 'all, I need vision. Like, we need to get back to why we're doing what we're doing. And so she was listening and she was interested.

25:24and Ella and I had a, like, I called it a lock-in, like here at our office. And I kind of told her, and I also told God, honestly, because God has always been, for me, when I say instincts, it's also like, hey, God, what do you got here? Like, it's always been a pivotal part of my journey. And I remember praying and I said, God, I'm not leaving this office until I know why we're doing this and what we need to do. So all the long story short, Ella and I are spending the night here and had two whiteboards. She was writing down things as I was saying, okay, if we do this, if we do that. And the reason to tie back to what you were saying is as, as we were dreaming about what's next, I kept telling the team, I don't want to grow for growth's sake.

26:12I get that's what most businesses do is they, they keep growing, they scale. that's the business, right? That's the dream. But I'm not going to grow for growth's sake. I'm not going to grow just because that's what's expected. And Chip is for sure. I mean, we both are very intentional about our next steps. All that to say, as we were dreaming, I just felt like it got very clear. I got language. I was like, why are we doing all of this? It's busy. We have a lot of amazing employees. We have a lot of different arms and Magnolia. It just isn't retail and it's not just a show. There's so many things that there's so many tentacles to this business.

26:53But I felt tired and I wasn't tired because the amount that we have, I was tired because when you just move and you do the work and you don't have vision, it's exhausting. But once you have vision and you know where you're going and there's a point to all of it, it's not exhausting anymore. And I felt like in that moment, just the clarity came. Magnolia's point, our purpose, our vision is that we want to make space for meaningful moments in life and home. And when that phrase got articulated and we wrote that down, that was it for me. And if that's a yes, then I felt like, okay, this is why we're doing what we're doing.

27:30And then to be able to articulate that to our team and to everyone who works here to give a point to all of the stuff that we've said yes to. I think for me, Dennis, that was that pivotal moment of moving forward. That's kind of the filter that I'll run everything through. If I say yes to it, it's because not only am I passionate about it and instinctively feel right about it, it's because it also points back to this will make space. So I think in that moment, it helped me as a mother, as a wife, but also as a business owner. And I could kind of see clear. And so I think all the weight fell off.