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Summary of Business of Home Podcast: Episode with Kim Scodro
Podcast Overview Title: Business of Home Podcast Host: Dennis Scully Guest: Kim Scodro Episode Title: Kim Scodro on why there's no replacement for hard work and kindness Episode Description: Kim Scodro, a Chicago-based interior designer, discusses her journey from teaching home economics to becoming a successful designer and her philosophy on the importance of kindness and hard work in the industry.
Key Themes and Discussions
Early Career and Home Economics Background
- Passion for Home Economics: Kim shares her background in teaching home economics and her love for sewing and design from a young age.
- Teaching Experience: Reflects on her experience teaching at an all-girls Catholic high school and the joy of engaging students in practical projects.
Transition to Interior Design
- Decision to Change Careers: After teaching, Kim decided to pursue interior design, seeking a more lucrative path.
- First Client Experience: Her first project was a challenging whole house design for a couple, which taught her resilience and adaptability in handling demanding clients.
Importance of Hard Work and Kindness
- Work Ethic: Emphasizes that hard work is essential in the design industry and that success is rooted in effort.
- Kindness in the Workplace: Stresses the importance of being kind to clients, vendors, and team members, noting that it fosters a collaborative environment.
Learning and Growth
- Continuous Learning: Kim highlights the importance of being open to learning and growing in the industry, including the business aspects of design.
- Networking and Support: Discusses how connections with other designers and industry professionals provide valuable insights and support.
Challenges in the Design Industry
- Price Increases and Budgeting: Talks about the impact of inflation and rising costs on clients' budgets and the importance of transparent communication about pricing.
- Luxury Market Resilience: Notes that the luxury market can be somewhat insulated from economic downturns, allowing her business to grow even during challenging times.
New Ventures and Creative Outlets
- Fabric Line Launch: Kim is starting her own fabric line, driven by her passion for textiles and a desire to fill a niche in the market.
- Collaboration with Hickory Chair: Shares her experience of working with Hickory Chair and the extensive process involved in product development.
Key Takeaways
- Work Hard, Stay Humble: Success in design requires a strong work ethic and humility, regardless of past achievements.
- Embrace Kindness: Kindness is a fundamental quality that enhances collaboration and client relationships.
- Continuous Improvement: Designers must be willing to learn and adapt to succeed in a competitive and evolving industry.
- Networking is Crucial: Building connections and participating in industry groups can provide support and foster growth.
- Openness to New Opportunities: Pursuing creative passions outside of the daily grind can lead to personal and professional fulfillment.
Conclusion Kim Scodro’s journey illustrates the significance of hard work, kindness, and continuous learning in the interior design industry. Her insights into the challenges and opportunities within the field serve as valuable lessons for both aspiring and established designers alike.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Kim Scodro. Based in Chicago, Kim has built a career on thoughtful, refined work that applies traditional details with a light, livable touch. Her projects have been widely featured in the National Shelter Press, and she has a robust furniture collection with Hickory Chair. I spoke with Kim about why she's glad that her first client was her toughest, why she's starting her own fabric line, and why there's no replacement for hard work and kindness.
0:54This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Summertime projects are here. Get your clients ready for backyard gatherings and downtime on the patio with Ernesta's custom-sized outdoor rugs. Expertly crafted with plush, fade-resistant fibers and elevated designs, each rug is made to fit and delivered in as little as two weeks. Join Ernesta's exclusive trade program today and let their team of dedicated consultants handle everything from samples to quotes, streamlining your process every step of the way. Apply for membership at ernesta.com slash boh. And now, on with the show. It is rare, in fact, I don't think it's ever happened, Kim, where I get to start a conversation with someone whose original career was in the field of, and I can't wait to hear all about this, the field of home economics and what that's all about.
1:55Ugh. Tell me. Are you kidding? This was like, I had dreamed of being a home ec teacher. This was it. When I was in high school, I loved home ec. When I was little, I mean, nothing made me happier than on the weekends. Is that right? Oh my gosh. Are you kidding? I had two older sisters. We would go to Maxine's fabric store every weekend. We would look through fabrics. Everybody in my family was sewing. I was making Barbie clothes in fourth grade, but it was just this unbelievable passion of mine. And so I'll never forget when I got the job and I taught in an all-girls Catholic high school. But it was such a fascinating experience and it makes me so sad that it's not in schools today.
2:42That whole mech isn't really taught in the same way. Okay. Yeah. I mean, there are so many. I was clothing construction, child development, and interior design. I remember one time for interior design class, there was an assistant principal. And we said, would you allow us to redo your bedroom and bathroom? And not from a construction standpoint, from a decorative standpoint. And we went to the local hardware that had books of wallpaper and they gave us paint. And the whole entire class, we transformed this room. And it was just so amazing to these students because they'd never really participated in anything like that.
3:23For clothing construction, we had an actual fashion show at the end where they invited their friends and family. And it was just such a great experience. Well, but as you say, it's a shame that we don't have that same kind of that home ec. I certainly never had home ec in any of these. You didn't? Many high schools that I attended in New York City. Yeah. Nothing prepared me for life. Nothing prepared you. And I grew up in very middle America, you know, in Illinois. Mom's on homecoming weekend. Dated my husband since we were 15. I was the cheerleader. He was on the football team. It was very middle America.
4:04Norman Rockwell is painting it right now. It really was. It was Friday Night Lights, but not in Texas. And it was just such a part of our culture and our being. And so when it was taken away from the schools, it's just sad. But I used to teach a night class, and it was called Sew Your Own Window Treatments. And so, yeah. And I'm surprised there isn't more of that. We often talk relative to the fabric industry that there aren't more people that are just buying fabric on their own, making curtains, making slipcovers and that sort of thing. And we don't lean into that in America in the same way that in Europe, a lot of companies do lean into that customer.
4:51Yeah, no, I think you're 100 % right. And that is one – if you ever talk to any designer, they will tell you when they get their window treatment quote, it's a shock. It's like, it's how much? But the work that goes into that, the work that goes into upholstery is so labor intensive. Imagine to do draperies, two and a half time with draperies, the size table you need, the hanging space you need to do. And so I have a true appreciation for that. And so I do feel like a lot of times I can walk clients off the ledge, help them say, hey, listen, here is why things are so expensive. So having that home ec knowledge comes in handy.
5:35Having that, exactly. Let me tell you how my high school students would have approached this issue. Exactly. So tell me about, tell me how you transition into your next career from being a home ec instructor. What happens? So, well, then I stopped teaching because it's just not the most profitable business being a teacher in an all-girls Catholic school. and I had my sons and that was my next true profession. I took it very seriously until they fired me when they didn't need me anymore. They were like, yeah, okay. And how old were they when they let you go? You know, they were high school, but whatever.
6:16Okay. I'm kidding. But it was like, you know, there's a point where it's like, okay, you know, you've, you've done your part. And, and that's when I just, it was a brave step. I'm not a brave person. I am not. I will tell you right now, safe is my comfort zone. And so I went to ASID. I felt a sense of security, even though it didn't mean anything, but I had that sense of security that I could go out. And then, I mean, I have the luxury of having the merchandise mart here in Chicago. So it's a great place to learn, a great place to learn. And I just started teaching myself And then I took a leap of faith and reached out to a real estate broker and said, if by chance you happen to have somebody that wants just a little living room done and maybe I could, you know, as indirectly as, you know, Midwestern -ing as I could be begging.
7:16And so they did. And that was my first client who to this day was also my most challenging client. Just challenging. And that was a good thing, a really good thing. So tell me what year roughly we're talking about. Oh, that was about 18 years ago. Okay, so 2007-ish? Yeah. Oh, yeah, because then the world fell apart. Right, exactly, which I also want to talk about. So you go to ASID, and they give you an accreditation of sorts. Yes, you're able to be called an ASID allied member. An allied member. Allied member. Just gave me a confidence. Exactly. And I think often that's just what we need is that little extra boost of confidence.
8:01So then you reach out to this real estate broker and say, you know, I'll take anything. And then lo and behold, you get that first job. And it was a whole house. And they were a couple that they didn't have any children. And it was a vacation home. and she was just the most exacting human being you'll ever meet. Like everything, she was just incredibly particular. And that was so good for me. And at the time, I was just so happy to have the project that I wasn't complaining or I was happy. I was just happy to have it. And looking back on it, it was like, I can't even believe I survived that. But they were thrilled and it all worked out.
8:52And I was really happy I wasn't the cabinet maker or anyone else because if something were off by one-sixteenth of an inch, that was it. Game over. It all had to be ripped out and redone. Well, so that's what I was going to ask you. Was she constantly making you redo things? I mean, what was her exactitude? How would it show up? How many shades of burgundy cotton velvet can you show someone until they have selected the one that is just right. And I didn't mind. I just kept going back and getting samples, samples, samples, as many as I could carry. And it was fine. But I mean, today I would have handled that situation differently.
9:32I still think I would be accommodating, but I would have had the skill set to handle that differently. So what would that look like today? I think it would look like, are you looking for a burgundy that has more blue in it? Are you looking for a burgundy that has more red in it? Let's take a look at these two. You know, I just think there are ways. You know, I often hear designers on your show or talk in general about managing the client and how we have to manage the client. And, you know, we have to be better at it and manage the project. And that means, you know, helping the client. And I agree with a lot of that.
10:07But at the end of the day, we are still hired to make them happy and do the job. So I don't know that I could ever come in and say, this is it. This is how we're doing it. It's this or no way, you know, my way or the highway. That's not in my comfort zone. But I do have respect. I think I could have been better at that first project if I had a little bit more of that skill set. Well, and you hadn't, it's not as if you had worked for another firm for a time. No, no. Or had you even spoken to other professionals in the industry about? No. And it was more just, you know, oh, bless them, all the people in the showrooms that worked in the showrooms.
10:47I mean, if you open up to them, there are so many of them that are willing to help you and give you guidance and, you know, just help along the way. And even, you know, that's a really good point that you say about other designers, because I've tried to be that person if anybody has questions or anything. Oh, good. And, you know, I mean, part of DLN and LDC, that's sort of their MO, and I really love that about it. But I remember I had done my first show house, and a designer walked in, and she came into the space, and she said, oh have you done the show house before and i said no no no i haven't this is my first she's like oh well this is my third if you need anything you just come to me i'm here to help you in any way that you want she wasn't assigned to me or anything she was just a good person yeah and and i feel like designers today are more like that than maybe they were 17 years ago and maybe hopefully that's just the way the world's going that people are kinder well some people Sure, Kim.
11:53Oh, yes, I've totally noticed that out in the world, that people are so much kinder. Yes. You know, let's make it a thing, Dennis. I trip over that all the time. No, I mean, I do think that many designers are extremely generous. And in fact, I'm surprised how often I will talk to a designer and they will tell me in the early days of their career how so-and-so shared his contract with me or so-and-so told me how to charge. or gave me real great advice because it is so challenging getting started again, particularly if you haven't worked somewhere else and you don't even know what clients' expectations are going to be like and how do you make money at this business?
12:36Yeah, how do you make money and how do you continue after that one client and how do you get – I mean, the way I went about getting published is so backwards. Well, so tell me about that. Oh, my goodness. So I shot a project and I mean, to this day, I've always had, I just love traditional home, the people at traditional home. I knew Ann Main. She was the first one that, in fact, Jill just reached out yesterday. They're doing something asking about if I could give some quotes about what traditional home meant to me and to my career. And I have so much I owe to it. Do you remember a magazine called Renovation Style?
13:18Sure. Sure. So I just kept sending traditional home renovation style. I just kept sending them these photos over and over, you know, the printed glossy over and over and over and over. And finally, they replied and they're like, fine, we'll send someone to take a look at it. And they did. Leave us alone. They were, yeah, just stop already. I mean, what are you spending in postage, woman? um so they did and it ended up being on the cover of the magazine which for me was huge it was it was huge and it was in a walgreens and someone picked it up she looked at it she was like oh this person's in chicago that's where i'm from and that just one thing led to another and then and Maine.
14:06I had done some show houses for traditional home in Napa. And all of those things really matter. You know, I think today there's, it's hard. There's so much. And I think, you know, I think Jill will tell you this, Jill Cohn will tell you this at Lux too. There are so many fabulous projects out there, but there's only so much space. And, you know, my husband says there's no such thing as luck. You make your own luck, but I do believe a lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time and a little bit of luck. No, I completely agree. And I think most successful designers will tell you that certainly a big percentage of their success comes from luck.
14:49And as you say, so often it's someone seeing that cover or saying yes to that project being submitted and that can just make such a huge difference. Let's go back though for a moment because as you just suggested before, you started your firm, let's call it 2007, let's call it just a year or so before the whole world starts falling apart. How did that show up for you? Well, it was an unusual time because not only did the whole world fall apart, we had two sons in college. I was trying to start this career. To this day, I still don't know until after my sons were well out of college that they ever even knew I did anything.
15:36Because you know, you're sort of in that world where you're like, you know, I know I have parents. They're great people. I touch base with them, but I don't want to hear a whole lot about their life right now. I don't really know what they do. I don't know what goes on. I don't know what mom's doing all day. And then you have this whole 2008 situation that was happening. And looking back on it, of course, it builds strength and all of the other. But luckily, I feel like I continued to get projects because the people that maybe work with interior designers are a little more, if they're going to buy a house, they're going to decorate it, right?
16:17If you have the money to, hiring an interior designer is a luxury. It is a luxury. It's like getting your nails painted. I can go get my nails done and they're going to be fantastic. I'm going to have an enjoyable experience. I can also paint my own nails. They're not going to last. It's not going to look great. I'll probably have to redo them. That's how an interior designer is. It's a luxury. So the people that are living in that luxury market, I think, are a little insulated to some things that go on. So I was able to continue to grow during that bad time. And did you have anybody working with you?
16:55No. And it was really scary to hire the first person that I hired. who subsequently has been, when she joined, she had a boyfriend. During that time, she moved in with her boyfriend, got married, had three babies. I'm still in touch with her. Fantastic. But I felt this incredible weight of the world taking on somebody and being responsible for somebody who was counting on an income. I mean, that's scary, isn't it? Yes, yes. Yeah. It's really scary. I remember saying to my husband, how do you sleep at night? You have to, these people, they're sending kids to college. It's a lot. And so I really was nervous about that, but I couldn't do it anymore.
17:44On your own. On my own, no. And A, I needed her skill set. I mean, the best advice is always hire somebody that's smarter than you and better than you. And yeah, I mean, she came in and she had the CAD skills. She had talent. She had all of the above. And we became a fantastic team. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. And then it just continued to grow. And I really believe you've had this advice on your show before, but five is a perfect number. Five, six people. Five is the right number for the team? I think that has to go down as a Dennis Scully business of home podcast quote of a lifetime. Five people is it.
18:29Who was it that said it? Was it Billy Baldwin? Yeah. Exactly. I think it was Billy Baldwin. And then David reiterated that. Yeah. But I do. I think it's a very, you know, we have a few senior designers. We have some designers that, you know, have a little less experience. I don't want to call them junior designers because they are designers. We have someone that takes care of all of our business, our books and things like that. And it's just a perfect number. I'd be nervous going beyond that. So have you ever scaled up? Has there been a project that required you to? Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was fine.
19:08It's just more, I like to have my hands in everything. And so if you're having to do, you know, manage personalities and, you know, this is like a no drama. We're no drama. If you were bringing drama, you just work that out before you enter the door. I don't want drama, no drama. I don't like drama. It makes me nervous. So, yeah. So, no, we have a great team right now. But there's a chance we may have to add on in the near future. And we'll do that very slowly. And now, with the experience that you've had, when you think about hiring that next person, what do you think about what are you looking for so often when i'm talking with the new york school of interior designer students one of the first questions that they'll ask one of the guests is so what do you look for when you're hiring you know how do i how do i make myself more desirable yeah i mean for me there's only one thing and that's that's kindness you either are a kind person or you're not you have to be kind to the vendors you have to be kind to the clients you have to be kind to your fellow co-workers.
20:15You can teach everything. We can teach you how we work. We can teach you how we scheme. We can teach you how we present. You've learned your skill set in school, but you cannot teach basic kindness. And to us, that's just, that's really, really important. We never lose sight of, we can't do what we do without having respect and showing kindness to the people that help us. And that's why there's a, you know, we always have a conversation when somebody new comes in, it's like, there are no egos here. When we are scheming for a project, we work on every project as a team. And so everybody will do different schemes.
20:59We all come in and we all critique it. And it's like, oh, oh, that's the worst. Get rid of it. No, You can't be upset, and you also can't do the victory dance when a client picks the fabric you chose. This is a team sport and a team effort here, and sometimes I think it's hard to shake that initially. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned about, we were having a conversation on this week's Thursday show about design critique and how it doesn't exist in our industry in the same way that there are famous food critics and there are famous art critics and architecture critics. But who comes to mind who does interior design criticism?
21:47Right. No one. I mean, at a cocktail party, we know who comes to mind for who is going to dish about this project or that project. Exactly. But I do think sometimes you set yourself up. I mean, I felt a bit just recently put in front of a firing squad. What happened? Well, something happened. It wasn't bad, but we did some work at this country. club and you're never going to please everyone, right? So I just felt like it was going to be coming left and right. What was that for? Why were those, you know, draperies used, blah, blah, blah. But so far, nothing. So far, they've been lovely. It's still new though.
22:27I mean, you know, it's interesting because just before this chat, I was watching the home tour that you gave of your home in Georgia on Homeworthy, right? So I'm watching this video and there's hundreds of comments. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you've looked at that video recently, but I mean, a lot of people weighed in. First of all, they're all in love with you and they think your house is so beautiful and you're so charming and they're all coming over to hang out with the crocodile. Some people wrote bad things. Well, that's what I was going to ask you because everything I saw seemed like, oh, this is so sweet, this is so lovely, but I assume there were two negative comments and what did they have to say?
23:06When it first came out and there were comments on there, I didn't know there were comments. And my son said, you know, Mom, there's comments. Don't look. Well, are you kidding? That's like being in a restaurant and saying, look who's behind you, but don't look. Right. Don't turn around. Of course I'm going to look. Paul Newman is behind you. Don't turn around. Don't look. Yeah. But of course I looked. And there were two comments. One was the kids' bunk beds look like they're in a home for where bad children go. Who even thinks that? What? Who even thinks like that? And the other one was, could your necklace be any bigger?
23:47Ouch. Well, out, that's mean. Wow. So that was actually like a physical appearance comment. It was a physical attack. I was like, well, at least they didn't say anything about, you know, time for a touch up on your highlights or something. Well, I mean, let's stay focused on the house here, people, which was beautiful. You open yourself up. I felt that way with Kipps Bay, too. Sure. So I was, oh, well, that's a whole level of stress that humans do not need to be under. But I felt like, you know, I had this sense of calm right before Kipps Bay. was ready to open. And I thought to myself, if I walk in and I think it's pretty and I'm proud of it and what we've done, then that's enough for me.
24:35That just has to be enough. And, and I, I did feel that way. So that put me at ease. But, but was that, was that a, was that a good thing for you as far as exposure and, and clients and all of that? Yes, it absolutely, it was a good thing. It was a good thing. Um, I loved being able to, um, well, of course I, you know, I'm obsessed with Gracie and they were so incredibly generous. I mean, Jen, they were, they're just amazing. Um, I love being able to highlight Hickory Chair. I do think that because of that, um, I'm doing the Flower Show House in Nashville this fall. And I think that by doing Kips Bay, that maybe helped Margo say, okay, yes.
25:22That's great. So I do think if you, everything that you do, maybe you're not seeing the initial, but it leads to other things.
25:36We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Immerse your clients in elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom-sized rugs. With unlimited complimentary samples, exclusive trade discounts, and personalized support from a dedicated team of consultants, Ernesta makes it easy to explore options and bring your creative vision to life. To apply for membership or learn more, visit ernesta.com slash boh. And now, back to the show.
26:13What I'm always curious about, particularly for someone like you who comes from, right, who this wasn't the industry that you were schooled for or that you came up in, that building process we talked earlier about making that first hire for you and how stressful that was and then making sure you had enough business to get that. And here you had this very demanding client right out of the gate, right? I mean, I'm curious how you even knew how to charge or some designers mark up and some designers charge a design fee. And I mean, how did you come to learn all of that structure? You know, it's amazing what you can find in books back then.
26:54And so it was, I did an hourly fee and then I passed along a portion of my discount to them. And I will remember this for forever, but I figured everything out. and if they had done, bought everything, the whole house, I was going to make$10 ,000. I just couldn't believe I was going to make that much money. I just couldn't believe it. I was like, are you kidding me? And then I was invited to Larry Lasso. Do you remember that name, the designer? What was it? Sure, Larry Lasso. Larry Lasso, yes. So he came to Cravitz, I believe. And they hosted a dinner and I went to the dinner and he was there and I was sitting next to this designer and she was like, I am so tired of designers not charging their worth.
27:47It's just doing nothing but degrading the whole industry and there is no reason we shouldn't be paid for the work that we're doing and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that stuck in my head as much as advice from Mariette Hein Gomez that I got one time did, but that stuck in my head. And it was like, how are you to expect to be respected and paid well for the work that you do if you're not believing it yourself? And she was so right. And so I just continued to read what the industry standard was and continued to look what, you know, my model, don't tell Sean, but I don't to a flat fee. Please don't tell them.
28:30But everybody has to do what's comfortable for them. And so it took time to get the confidence to say, hey, listen, I am working so many hours. I really need to be adequately compensated for that. $10 ,000 is not nearly enough. $10 ,000 for a nine-month project. Oh my goodness. I think that it's like anything. You have to have a work ethic. I don't care where you went to school. I don't care. Work ethic, work ethic, work ethic. Well, so what did Mariette Himes Gomez tell you? Oh, yes. Yes. What did she tell you? Really? Yeah. Oh, yes. This was years ago. And she had a collection with Hickory Chair.
29:12And I had no affiliation with Hickory Chair other than, you know, I loved Hickory Chair product always. And so I was at High Point and I was back in Merritt Gomez area space and it was just her and I. There was no one else. And I was like, is this real? Am I like on candid camera? Is it just her and I? This is like a joke. So I'm like, pull up your big girl pants, go over and say something to her. So I went over and I said, you know, I just, I think you're amazing. You know, I'm brand new, just starting out. Is there one piece of advice that you can give me? And she said, yes. Always get the best photography that you can afford.
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29:54I did that. And that was for that first project that landed on the cover so early in my career. Look at that. Yeah. Thank you, Merit Heim Gomez, right? Wow. Yeah. And that's what she said. And you know what? It's so true. It is so true. Photography is everything. And I am a big believer in a stylist as well, because they know how to move a vase one quarter of a turn, and it just can change an entire shot. Well, that's great advice. And I love that Mariette Himes Gomez gave you that advice when you cornered her in her space. Just her and I alone. Could you imagine? I was like, seriously, is this really happening?
30:38because back then, High Point, I mean, there were so many people at High Point. You could barely walk in the showrooms, and it was like, oh, it's just her and I. Well, and it's interesting, and I was thinking about this because right after High Point, we did a High Point recap show, and Caitlin and I, actually, we were talking about your collection. I know. I was so excited. I was so happy. Well, and it was beautiful, but it was also, I mean, again, and I think we talked about this at the time, it felt so of the time. It felt like there were so many lovely decorative elements and skirts on sofas and things that you had incorporated.
31:21And I found myself wondering, thinking about our conversation today, how you articulate your style, your look, if in fact you feel you have a signature look or a style. Tell me how you think about it. Yeah, I feel like for our clients, you know, we are client driven. We will be whatever they would like us to be. you know, we always try to give them the most tasteful version of what they're looking at. And it's sort of like, you know, there are a couple of unwritten rules that we have. Like, if we go into a client's house and they don't offer us a glass of water or anything, you know, it's just like, okay, this is, that's just what you do.
32:08When someone comes to your home, can I get you a glass of water? Can I get you something to drink? That's just, and we always say no, but it's always offered. We never accept the water. We never accept it. Oh my goodness. We always want to be offered that. Exactly. We will choke before we would accept the water, but, um, you know, it's nice to be, you know, it just, it says something about the people. Um, we have this other state, like during a presentation, if a client or during that time, and they're showing us something that's just really not in great taste. We will say, oh, I think a more tasteful option would be.
32:48Have I shown you the Gracie wallpaper book? Exactly. A more tasteful option. Does this resonate with you? But it's a learning experience. I mean, we have never had a client come in and say they want this and be very firm and leave having that. It's a learning experience. Are there other ways that signal to you, this is someone I want to work with or I don't want to work with? Yeah. I think when somebody, when the very first question they ask, like, I don't know you. Maybe you weren't a referral. We don't have any connection. Or maybe it's like three people removed our connection. And the very first thing they ask me is, what do you charge?
33:29Right. How can I tell you what I charge when I don't even know what I'm doing for you? But that to me, it's like before you ask, again, that's a courtesy. Like, let's just play nice. I know you want to know what I charge. Let's just play nice before you hit me with that question. I mean, let's say, right? Yeah, and it is a concern. And people are like, oh, we don't have a budget. Well, that's just not true. Everyone has a budget. And just, you know, we try to tell people to please be honest with your budget. If you tell us your budget is$10 and your budget is actually$100, we have to go back and redo everything and it's ended up costing you more money and time.
34:08And just because it is what you're saying it is doesn't mean we're going to spend it all, but you just really have to be honest with that. I think that's something else designers don't really talk about. I think there are some people that either give the impression or make you feel as though, oh, I won't touch anything for under a million dollars or I won't take a bunch. I just had lunch with a fellow designer just to catch up earlier this week. And we were talking about it. And he has been in business forever. One of the most respected designers in Chicago. Great guy. And he was like, you know, I had somebody reach out recently and they were like, listen, I have$60 ,000 to$80 ,000 to spend.
34:52You know, would you be willing to work with me? And he was like, they were so lovely. I need work for the more junior designers in the firm. And who knows what it can lead to? It just depends where you are at a certain point. I mean, for him, that was a very, very low starting point, maybe normally a non-negotiable. But at this particular moment, that was it. Everyone is not doing multi-million dollar projects every project. It's just not. It's just not what it is. It's not the reality of it. Well, and it's interesting to hear you say that because so often when designers are being candid, they will tell you, listen, sometimes I need a quick project that's only going to to be a few months because that's going to help cover me for all the money that is being put out and the time over on this big project that's going to be completed in two or three years.
35:44So actually, some$80 ,000 projects, that's great because it just helps to kind of fill in with the cash flow of the operation sometimes. And you are absolutely right in that not everybody shares that information or talks about that. Let's be real here. We're all in the same boat. We're all just trying to do a good job. We're all just trying to stay afloat and do good work and do good projects. And yeah, I do like that. I think that's why I do feel strongly about DLN. There's a lot of honest discussion in those groups that I really appreciate. Yeah. It sounds like that's been really valuable for a lot of people.
36:21It really is. And the groups can really open up with each other and really share some things, which is great. And we don't get enough of that in the world. And along those lines, I mean, I'm always curious, and you and I were talking just before we started recording about what we wish we had known about the challenges of the interior design industry or what we really should be sharing with, whether, again, whether it's the NYSID students or the people who are thinking about transitioning into interior design, talking candidly about what a challenging industry this is. It is. It's so hard. When you think about it, there's not that many people that can afford an interior designer, right?
37:03I mean, again, we talked about this. It's a luxury. There's a lot of great interior designers out there. How do you set yourself apart when, let's say everybody is equally talented. How do you set yourself apart? What is it about your firm that is going to make people come to you or gravitate to you? And to me, again, it's, you just need to outwork people. I just, me, I just, that is just my MO. I am just going to try and outwork myself, outwork so that I just will do the best job possible because I do, I'm very appreciative of the work that we have. And I'm very appreciative that, that people have chosen us, but you cannot sit and think that it is just, we had an intern.
37:52Oh, a couple of years ago, we had an intern. And And she said that when she graduated, she was going to work for a construction company that had built in interior design projects because they built spec homes. And she was going to make$350 ,000 a year her first year. And I was like, well, where do I apply for that job? I apply for that job. Are you kidding me? Like, please. That's just not what it is. It's like any other business. You have to work hard and you also have to be prepared to be shot down. Well, and talk to me about that because I was talking with a designer the other day who was talking about the need to just have such a thick skin.
38:29Yes. Right? Because you're going to be told no far more than people realize or what you wanted or what you proposed isn't going to be what happens. And you can't let that eat you up. And yet sometimes you do. And you do. And you can't help but take it personally. Or it's you read into things. I think a lot of times, you know, somebody once said the world, people today are so busy thinking about themselves that they don't have time to worry about you. They're not thinking about you. But I think we read into things. Like I look at someone's mannerisms when they're looking at a scheme or a piece of furniture and I'm like, oh, my God, they hate it.
39:10Oh, they hate it. Oh, they can't stand it. Oh, they're never going to pick it. Oh, geez, why did I show them that? And then all of a sudden they're like, that one. I think that one's good. It's like, what's wrong with me? Why was I being so pessimistic? But I think that your mind can play so many games on you. And I do think being part, if you were starting out, being part, getting yourself part of an organization is key. And even if you work at a firm, a large firm, a small firm, whatever it is, having an outside group of people that do the same thing that you do is really nice to have. It's really nice to go and talk to people about that.
39:47And I don't know that there's enough new designer groups that are out there that people are participating in. You know, I just, I feel like that is such valuable feedback to have. And I'm not saying that you sit there and take all feedback to heart, but it will help squash any insecurities that you have. They talk about, what is it, the imposter syndrome? Yes. There's a lot of people talk about that. Yeah. I mean, it's true of any industry. And I think this is where experience comes in. Some of the younger designers are like, I just don't get it. I just don't get why they don't want it. It's like, well, they have a mortgage.
40:25They're probably preparing for their kid's future. They're probably thinking about summer camp that they have to pay for for their kids. They're not thinking just do they love it. They're thinking, do I want to spend the money at this point on this room? And it's just a cycle. There's a lot going through it where we're just focused on, why are they not loving our scheme? And instead, they're sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, what is this going to do to my bank account? And again, going back to having a little empathy, having a little kindness, trying to put yourself in a situation of what everyone is going through before you go beating yourself up.
41:03I think the point you're making too about sometimes we can't understand why they don't want to make the investment. I was talking to a designer and he said, I can't believe this client doesn't want to buy this$15 million home. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? You're never going to have this opportunity again. And I'm thinking, really? Because it's a$15 million home. I can imagine just maybe pausing, stepping back for a minute and thinking. But I feel like our industry has gotten so much more expensive in recent... Dennis, you could not be closer to the truth. I am just in shock. I mean, it is so expensive.
41:38Everything is so expensive. And, you know, you get a little jaded when you work in this industry. And then I go out and I go shopping and I'm like, oh, that sweater, that sweater is only$2 ,200. Give me it in every color. How many do you have in stuff? I mean, please. I mean, you really, I mean, the numbers are just, it's just crazy. And so, So, yeah, I mean, we have a lot of repeat clients and I see, you know, I mean, we've done five homes from six homes from and I see even they're starting to say, wait, whoa, what? That's quite different than it was three years ago. Interesting. And it is. It is.
42:22And I get that. I get it. That sticker shock and call it inflation, call it tariffs, call it whatever, whatever. I mean, there's something going on now that is making things more expensive and putting a little fear into our industry and all very valid. How does it present itself for you? How do clients, I mean, is it just that clients react a certain way or are clients starting to dial back certain elements or do you have to substitute product? I mean, how does it present itself? Yes. More thought and questioning, I would say, instead of, oh gosh, but I love that fabric so much. You know what?
43:03Just do it. Instead, is there something that could make it equally as cool, but we're not spending as much on that? And I respect that. I mean, I do. I have, you know, I'm like that in my own life. I totally, it got gross for a while. It was gross when people were just spending so much money. And they know - So what was gross? And when was this? It was gross. How much, you know, maybe like, 10 years ago, there was this period for like three years where people were just like, oh, I don't care. I love it. I'll take it. Don't worry. And I'm just like, oh my gosh, but you have three kids that have to go to college.
43:39Like, oh my gosh. And I do believe everyone spends their money differently. Some people put all their money into their home, right? But other people don't want to spend as much on their home, but they want to travel and They want to stay in nice places and have good experiences. So you really can't judge somebody or a situation by that. But trying to figure that out and trying to figure out the dynamic of that family and how they, that's why we ask budgets. I'm not being nosy when I ask your budget. I'm just asking so that we have a starting point. Are we going solely to Holly Hunt or are we working in some more cost-effective arenas?
44:20Right. But I do think people are, they're just thinking a little longer. You know, we have on the bottom of all of our quotes that this quote is good for 15 days. And after 15 days, we'll have to re-quote it. 15. Okay. Interesting. 15 days. So TikTok. Wow. Yeah. TikTok. Because we'll have to re-quote it because we've been getting so many price increases. Well, if that tariff is added within those 15 days, we're paying that. I'm not going to go to the client, even though they know what's going on in the world, even though they know, I'm just not. And right now it's been manageable and sustainable.
44:55Well, I don't know. I mean, is it going to be - So that's the decision you made. You said, I'm going to absorb that. If my price gets increased, I'm going to eat it for the client for this 15 day period. Okay. Interesting. But I have a friend who owns a showroom and he has a lot of lighting that comes from England. And all of a sudden he has in a showroom, all these people have purchased lighting and he can't possibly afford to pay the tariff without going back to the designer who then the designer has to make the decision. Are they going to pay it? Or are they going to go to their client and ask for the money?
45:34And you can say, we can say all we want. Well, people are watching the news. They know what's going on in the world. But at the end of the day, I have put on there 15 days and I'm going to honor that. I just am. I did have some people that some vendors that were like, if your client wants to order something now, you might want to tell them now before the tariff comes. And I don't really buy into that theory because it feels a little pressure used car salesman-y like to me or buying something just because it's on sale. who knows? I mean, maybe they approve it and then something changes and that tariff is gone.
46:14I don't know. It's a confusing time, Dennis, right now. That's all I'm going to say in our industry, in all industries, I'm sure. But I have hope and faith that it will all work itself out eventually. Well, so in wrapping up our conversation here, Kim, we talked briefly about your collection with Hickory Chair. And can we talk about another collection that you're working on? Yes. The fabric? Yes. I didn't know if we were allowed to. Yes, but it is not a licensed collection. It is a collection that I've been working on for the past 14 months. Okay. It is a collection that in my dream world would be on the lines of some fabrics that are in John Rosali, the James showroom, Welles Abbott showroom.
47:14I'm going to London in a couple weeks to meet with a showroom there. It is a very, yeah. And you know these types of fabrics. there are some, uh, the, you know, the design social pop-up, they are, uh, I'm familiar, an amazing Avenue for these independent brands. And I could not be more excited about it. It is a, it's a beautiful, beautiful collection. And, um, yeah, it's just like, why, why am I doing this to myself? Well, so that's going to be my question, Jim, because whenever I'm talking to someone who tells me that they're coming out with a fabric collection, I just have to ask, did you look around and you couldn't find?
47:56What could you not find, Kim? No, it wasn't. What white space is out there that has not been filled? And have people told you what it's like having a small fabric line? Yes. And that it is not an easy endeavor? No, no. But have people told me what it was like to start an interior design firm from scratch? Turns out that wasn't easy. I have had the most fun doing this. Maybe it's my addiction to fabric. Maybe it's my early home act. Maybe it's those years of going to the fabric store, vaccines every weekend, but I could not be more excited about it. It is definitely, and this is such another weird thing to say, but it is definitely just a labor of love.
48:44I have had the most fun doing this. And no, it is not something that it's very 18th, 19th century European driven in its design element. And there are so many people out there that are doing that so well. Sister Parrish, Skylar Samperson, Lisa Fine. There's a lot of them out there that are doing that very, very well. And just like everything else, I really do believe there's enough just like a good interior designer. There's enough space in the market, and it can fit seamlessly into that. But again, weird time to be doing this, Dennis. Well, it's an interesting time. I know that you know what a big endeavor this is you're taking on.
49:35Huge. Big endeavor, expensive endeavor. If you actually spend the time really researching it and why some brands have been so successful and others have not, it's pretty crystal clear. What's your sense? I think some people just, like anything else, they just try and grow too big, grow to be more, try to push too much out there. Showrooms just don't have that much space. It's like doing licensing collections with fabric houses. There is just not the space. And I think a lot of fabric houses now are trying to bring their own brand identity back instead of just being associated with particular designers.
50:30But they sure have the – they've actually – everyone, I don't want to name names, but I've talked to big companies, and they have been so unbelievably helpful with information that they were willing to share. People are so, oh yeah, people have been really, really helpful. And people have also been very, you know, use caution, tread lightly, use caution, do this, don't do that. And I've taken it all to heart. You know, I think just for me, what's exciting about Hickory Chair, what's exciting about this, what's exciting about what I have coming up in the spring of 26 is it's nice to have another creative outlet.
51:13It's nice to keep yourself. It's something that keeps you always learning, learning something new. I mean, what I have learned from Hickory Chair, what I've learned through this fabric collection, I mean, what I've learned from what's happening in the spring, it's just, it's such valuable information that I would have never, ever even otherwise given thought to. Help me understand that better. So Hickory Chair, for example, what have you learned from partnering with Hickory Chair that's helped you in your business or even just how you think about the industry? Oh, the level of detail that I think that a lot of people might suspect that you're like, this is a cute chair.
51:53Okay, let's put this in my collection. This is a cute chair. They don't understand that, and I don't mean that in a demeaning way, they don't understand how would they understand, but you not only have to design the chair, you have to do all the CAD drawings of the chair. You have to, the pitch on the chair, the size of the leg of the chair, then the prototype has to be made. What goes into bringing a new skew into the collection is just an unbelievable undertaking. So when someone like Ray, who just had his last launch. Ray Booth. Yeah. How many pieces were there? A ton. I mean, so much work Ray had to do to do that.
52:36David has one coming. anyone that, you know, the Habel, Suzanne Kassler, anyone that is doing any new product, even one piece, it is a lot of work. And I do think that sometimes people think, oh, you just think these things up and then they just make it happen. And one of the biggest thrills was going into the showroom and seeing those craftspeople that made that piece of furniture and made that prototype. And I was there and they brought it out and they were so proud. I was so proud. I mean, it's incredible. And I think we take a lot of it for granted. And Hickory Chair is, I don't think that different than so many other brands that have been around for a while, care about their employees, care about the product that they're putting out there.
53:25And it's just lovely to be part of it. But what a learning experience. You know, I mean, you're in this industry all the time. Don't you learn something constantly? Good and bad. Well, exactly. And that's why, I mean, I love the story of Mariette Hines Gomez talking to you about photography and how that stuck with you. And then actually you put that advice to work and it paid off for you in getting published. It really does. And I'm always so curious, particularly for someone who came from outside of this industry, what you think is so important about what you've learned along the way. And if somebody was able to get you alone at high point and ask you for some advice, what would you tell them?
54:12That's a really good question, Dennis. Probably the best piece of advice I would give is don't get too big for your britches. Do not think that because you have one great client that that that's it. You can, it's all going to come pouring in. Never give up working hard. Never, never give up working hard. Never dig your heels in so far that you can't get them out. And just always be open to learning because if you're not learning something every day, why bother? If you're not getting excited every day about what your day looks like ahead, and I'm not saying it's really a fun time dealing with vendors who are delivering things that are damage, but you need to find a highlight of every day to stay in this industry because it sounds like it's this dramatic thing, but, and it's not, it's a lovely, fun industry to work in, but you give a lot of yourself.
55:09And I think that's true of any, any job or any career that you care about and just be prepared to keep on giving and you never, never rest, never rest. It's never going to be easy. I think if you talk to the most seasoned designer, they will tell you they work as hard today as they did when they first started out, and that's why they're successful. Well, and to that point, Kim, I'm curious, how do you recharge? So you do give so much of yourself, and your point about you have to stay so enthusiastic, and yet the light fixture just showed up for the fifth time broken again, right? And how many phone calls was it to get that light fixture every single time and it's still broken?
55:59How do you find it in yourself or what gives you the support or the encouragement that you need? Get involved. I mean, you can go, and you know this, Dennis, you can go to an industry event every night of the week. And I promise you, if you just make yourself go to a few, what you give you will get in tenfold back to you and it will excite you and you will become re-engaged you will start a fabric collection is that what started this you went to parties and suddenly suddenly you said I need a fabric collection you know what I had my third martini and I thought guess what you know what the world needs is more yeah um yeah I think it definitely stemmed from that need to dig deeper in a creative level that was a little bit different than just...
56:50Yes, because it sounds like you needed the additional creative outlet of pouring yourself into a fabric collection. I think you're... Yeah. Yes? Because sometimes just working as an interior designer is more draining than we care to think about. Yes. Right? Yes. And until you and I just had this therapy session right now, I probably didn't realize that, but you're absolutely right. It was just, it was such, it's such an unbelievable passion. And I just, I love it so much. And, you know, give me Pantone colors to look at and threads and, you know, all day long. And I'm just, I'm loving it. And yeah, I think you're right.
57:33And I think it just re-energizes everything, everything. And that can't ever be a bad thing. Well, I'm eager to see this new collection. I can't wait to talk to you more about your showroom partner selection process and all of that. Yeah, all fun stuff. All fun stuff coming up. It's a thrill to talk with you, Kim. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so, so much for having me on the show. I really, really do appreciate it. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more.
58:20If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.
From the publisher
Based in Chicago, interior designer Kim Scodro has built a career on thoughtful, refined work that applies traditional details with a light, livable touch. Her projects have been widely featured in the national shelter press, and she has a robust furniture collection with Hickory Chair. On this episode of the podcast she speaks with host Dennis Scully about why she’s glad that her first client was her toughest, why she’s starting her own fabric line, and why there’s no replacement for hard work and kindness.
This episode is sponsored by Ernesta