Lawson-Fenning doesn't sweat the copycats

28:10So hopefully that will not happen. But, you know, we just always try to keep it fresh and move on. So was that part of your thinking in going to BDNY was, hey, hospitality people, I see you might be tempted to knock us off a little bit. Let us show up and introduce ourselves. We'll do it for you. Yeah. We'll give you that. We'll give you our quality and we'll do it for you. And so that's our hope is that we can appeal to them and give them our designs that are licensed. Yeah, because they're knocking you off because they either want a lower price point or they want sort of ease of production. They want to be able to control the production.

28:45So if we can offer that to them, if we can offer them a better price point at scale, if we can offer them, you know, sort of unlimited customization, we can design a piece for them. Suddenly we've sort of cracked the code and are able to, you know, jump into a different market. So but like Grant said, we you know, we know people are going to copy us. It's just the nature of the business. we're pretty prolific with our designs. We just keep it moving. I know there's some companies that, you know, they do five things really well. And it's, it's heartbreaking when they're, you know, sort of copied because they put so much energy and engineering into a particular piece.

29:19You know, for us, we, we just keep it moving. We, we have a big line and, you know, if we have to drop a few styles because they were over copied, then so be it. It's, it's just, you know, sort of one of the things of doing business, I guess. Let's talk about the interesting challenge that the two of you have taken on, which is a collaboration with CB2. So here, right, you had to find ways to value engineer your designs to this more affordable price point. And I want to hear from you both how that collaboration first came about and how you thought about it and if you were hesitant about it at all in the beginning or sort of how it came to be.

30:08We were sort of approached by our agent who works with CB2 and was able to sort of connect us and make an introduction. And we had a couple of great meetings with them and our agent had worked with them before. So he had a lot of great things to say and a lot of good background. So we were very comfortable from jump with them. And the sort of the good news of the pandemic is we were doing all of this designing right in the height of the lockdown. So our showroom was shuttered. You know, everyone was working from home. We were, you know, kind of climbing the walls and CB2 is like, hey, you want to design 150 pieces?

30:45So we're like, sounds great. This is a really good use of our time. When are we ever going to get this chance again to both be really ensconced in just the design process, which we hadn't had that in a long time where we could just really sit and just design things. And we really enjoyed that process, the design process. Well, and do they come to you saying, I need a sofa to come in roughly at this price point? Or how does it work from that perspective? No, they truly gave us carte blanche. They said, design whatever you want. Don't make it targeted towards us. Don't think of this as a CB2 piece.

31:26Think of this as a loss and fending piece. What do you want to design? We want your work. We don't want to be sort of like, you know, for lack of a better word, like distilling it for us. We want your sort of your voice. So it was great. They said, well, we'll look at everything and we'll cost it. And if it can't be done, it can't be done. But just give us everything. So we gave them everything. We gave them over 200 designs. Yes, so much. Dennis, it was really interesting, though, being able to talk to them and really get. We've had lots and lots of intensive meetings about who their client was.

32:00and sort of learning who the client was. And I think that was great for Glenn and I to sort of be able to design for, you know, probably a bit of a younger client. And then also the categories were so large that we started being interested in doing because like Glenn said, we were both just super excited to throw ourselves into it. I mean, just the categories we were able to work with, like we don't, you know, sort of aren't able to do a rug line and a glassware line and a pillow line, you know, alongside a upholstery line. I mean, it was every category. They gave us just total control over what we wanted to present.

32:37As long as it hit sort of their, you know, they needed lighting, they needed, you know, textiles, everything. So for us, it was really fun to tell an entire story. And it really gave us this opportunity to encapsulate the brand. Like, how does the brand spread, you know, sort of amongst all categories? And what does that feel like? And what's the vibe? And how are we merchandising it and putting it all together? So it was a really fun opportunity for us. Well, so to Grant's point, what does CB2 say about who they want you to imagine this client being? I mean, who do they see as their client? I think they're like a young professional, generally.

33:17You know, sort of a lot of times an urban dweller, apartment dweller. So the scale, you had to really think about the scale. And we didn't do, you know, we're not talking about restoration hardware scale. I mean, everything was definitely similar to Lawson Fanning. And we definitely do, we definitely have some underscaled pieces as well. But I think the stuff that's still really selling the best in the line, there's still some pieces that are in their top sellers are, you know, sort of a small swivel chair that, you know, you can see it fitting anywhere. And I think, you know, out of the box, I think the color was something that we talked about with them a lot.

33:54And some of the materials that they pushed on us were the things that were popular with them that we wouldn't think of using. We wouldn't think of doing molded fiberglass for Lawson-Fenning customer. But for CB2, that's a pretty common technique or material that they use. Were you worried about how your designer clientele would respond to this? Did you have conversations ahead of time, take the temperature? I think maybe a little bit. But we found it. We found it. They pretty much embraced it. I mean, we had a lot of clients that were designers that were buying it for their offices and they would send us photos and they were like, we just did a whole wall of your bookshelves for our office.

34:35And there you see it in projects where it would be alongside Lawson Fennig pieces and generally in like the kids rooms or in the office or second bedroom and but even mixed in in the living spaces. So I did not feel like we really got any pushback from our clientele. Well, that's that's nice to hear. I mean, and it's interesting because, and again, I'm going to come back to this whole sort of trade program discussion, because recently we wrote about what designers are looking for in a trade program, what matters. I'm asking designers all the time, this whole issue of trade exclusivity, does that matter as much anymore?

35:18Or what are the important points? I mean, what do designers tell you is important to them? I mean, above and beyond everything else, it's our customization. Designers really want to be able to personalize the pieces for their client. And that's something that a lot of clients struggle with. You know, we do have end users come to us and they're overwhelmed by the options. You know, we say to them, you can pick any fabric. You can go, you know, sort it out yourself, get whatever fabric you want and bring it to us. You can pick any wood finish. This couch can be any size. And then suddenly the client's overwhelmed.

35:54And that's where designers are really, you know, sort of past the muster. Like that's what they do and they're really good at it. And that's why you hire designers to sort of help you decide, you know, amongst the limitless options, what you need and what's going to work for you. And the whole issue of, I mean, I don't know what the breakdown is between consumer and designers for you guys. You can tell me, but I I mean, it's majority, we're majority designers at this point. You know, we have a fairly under 10%, I would say. Really? So under 10 % consumer at this point? Yeah. Yes. Yes. And was that intentional on your part at some point or is that just how it shook out in the end?

36:35Never, never intentional in the beginning. I think it was quickly learned that, you know, when you can sell mini, mini sofas to one person and keep them happy over the years. You know, it does pan out to be a better situation where, I mean, we, we, we loved selling, you know, people their first sofa and direct to consumer and having the relationships with people that, you know, that, that do still come in and shop with us. But, but I think that it, yeah, the designers are also very, very much, they're fun to work for because they, the stuff that they create with our furniture has always been very inspiring.

37:12and we keep a log of all the different fabrics. And like Glenn says, the customizations that these people do that are so talented. We have people that are shopping with us that are just the creme de la creme of interior designers. And we get a lot of fantastic ideas from our clientele. Yeah. And one thing we decided to do early on was not go online with our pieces because they are so high touch and there are so many options. So we don't sell online. We don't sell through our website. And I think that that's been a bit of a gatekeeper and, you know, sort of allowed the trade to really lean in and be able to use us without, you know, too much worry that their clients were going to go direct and get something that they could get.

37:53You know, I think, you know, it's a bit overwhelming for people. And it's not, you know, you can't just like put it in your couch, in your cart and check out. That's not our business model. And will it, I mean, can you imagine that becoming your business model at some point? I mean, is online calling to you in a meaningful way? I would think it is. Yeah, I would think, you know, that's a big ramp up, you know, to sort of get that all going. I think, you know, to be able to offer some of our pieces online is definitely a goal of ours. We've just partnered with Design Within Reach to offer some core collection pieces with, you know, sort of a more curated option set.

38:35And that, you know, is our first sort of foray into real online. And we'll see sort of how that shakes out. But I think, you know, finding these partners is good for us. And then we'll, you know, we'll see where it leads us. Dennis, we really have looked at it for probably 10 years off and on, different periods, and we've gotten close. And as Glenn said, we've always just sort of decided it wasn't for us. I do think this foray into DWR is going to be interesting. and we're already seeing some pickup on it. And I think that we can distill the brand down and pick some of the pieces and have a direct-to-consumer line.

39:12I think that's definitely a goal.

39:18We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer-quality custom-size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12 by 12 samples, and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a trade-only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com slash boh. That's ernesta.com slash boh. And now, back to the show.

40:04What do you want to have happen in New York? What's winning going to look like for you in New York? I mean, I feel like we've already won just because we're there and it's open and it's beautiful. It's happened. It's happened. It's open. I'm like, we're done, right? Like, we don't have to do anything else. So yeah, I remember the first day we were actually open to the public saying to the team like, oh gosh, there's people coming in now. We have to actually do the servicing the clients thing. Don't sell anything. It looks so pretty. Yeah, don't sell anything. Don't let anything leave the showroom floor.

40:40So I think some of the success has come already. And I think the true success will be seeing all the clients interact with the pieces that have never seen it before. One of our first days open, we had a designer who's bought from us for 15 years, never seen a piece in person. And, you know, we're just like, thanks for trusting us to, you know, sort of spec us for all your projects. And here you go. And she was just so beside herself and so happy. And just seeing that, seeing the clients really see the pieces for the first time, it's very rewarding for us. The showroom in LA is, we do sell quite a bit off the floor there and everything is available off the floor there.

41:17And so it's not the traditional designer showroom model. We do memo. oh, sometimes half the shop will go out. I was going to say, for photo shoots, I'm imagining, right? Hopefully not for photo shoots. I hope not. If it happens. But New York is definitely going to be a little bit more of a traditional showroom. We're on the fifth floor. It's a bit of a – it's not traditional retail. It's not ground floor. And I think that sort of under the radar, sort of this finding something has always been sort of the ethos of, of the Glenn and I both enjoy about our brand. It's interesting. You were, you were talking earlier, Grant, about the scale and, and how you're very mindful of, of that.

42:01And you, and you referenced RH, which I can't believe they sell as much as they do with the, with the scale at that, at that size, particularly in that UK location that they opened. Because the Brits were just looking at this going, where is this going? Where is this going to live? But at the same time, America seems to love it. And I wonder, what is it you think they have done so well? and what is to be learned from what has made them successful, I wonder. Or how do you think about it? I don't want to put words in your mouth. Yeah, I think the thing they do so well is they've really created a brand, and that was something we looked at early on was it's holistic.

42:51You see an RH piece, you know it's an RH piece. I mean, there's really not a lot of mistaking a lot of their collections. That's important. And I think a lot of brands get sort of a little confused and kind of go in too many directions and they've managed to keep it sort of, you know, to really, there's a voice, there's a point of view and it's clear. And I think that, you know, it's always successful. I agree. And I'm so glad that you said that about the brand, because I think that continues to be one of our industry's biggest challenges. And again, I'll go back to all these high point companies that bemoan the fact that They're not recognizable brands, even after all these years.

43:32RH was able to come along and take a great deal of business away from many of them because they were able to establish a strong brand. You love it, you don't love it, whatever, but it's recognizable, to your point. You guys seem to have been very thoughtful about your brand. and you have been successful in building a brand, it's not easy. It usually costs a ton of money and takes a really long time. I mean, what do you think has made you memorable and more successful than many who have tried? It's just Grant and I. So we have a great relationship. We have a really good simpatico in terms of our aesthetic and design references, which is extremely lucky.

44:24we're not going in two different directions where we're usually kind of on the same path or, or, you know, sort of parallel paths to get to a sort of conclusion in a design problem. But I think we really leaned into what's the brand, what's the story. And we had some great mentors early on. I remember Peter Salah coming into our showroom 20 years ago and saying, there's a lot going on in here. Like what's Los Angeles? Like what, what, explain to me, what, what are you? And having to, you know, sort of explain and voice it and be like, this is the brand, this is what's what you're looking at. This is what's informing it.

44:57This is what's important. It really helped. It was, it was a really good exercise. Um, and then in later years, we worked with a brilliant brand strategist named Sean Yashar who really helped us. Yeah. Yeah. To define, he gave it real, real parameters, which was super helpful. So what did he, what did he force you to, to articulate that's so interesting. And that's so interesting about Peter Salick too. And I can just see him, my former boss, I can just see him doing that, like walking in, like there's so much going on here. What's, and there was, there was a lot going on. Right. And I'm sure he was totally drawn to it because it's totally his, his vibe.

45:34But, um, so what, so what does Sean try to get you to, to work on that? So interesting. It was really like a series of questions. It was, it was almost like a job interview. Like what, what's important to you? What, what do you want people to remember? Who are you? What's, what is the brand? What does it look like? Feel like? What are your colors? What's your geography? And what's your inspiration? And really focusing on that. And for us, it was, we're a California brand. We've always been very inspired by the history of Southern California. Despite not actually being from California. Full disclosure, the two of them for this beloved California brand.

46:13Informative years though. Informative years. Yes. I have spent over 25 years here and I have earned my California stripe. But yes, we really are. We are very inspired by sort of the history of Southern California architecture and design. And we really have leaned into that. And that helps to find the brand. It's helpful to have parameters. It's helpful to think of everything through that lens for us. It's so hard to remain disciplined. about brand. And that's why so few companies do it well. That's why so few companies are successful doing it because they're all over the place and they're, oh, we're bringing in this Italian looking sofa one day and next year we're doing some crazy, or we're leather, you know, like, yeah, they can't stop themselves.

47:00And brand discipline is just one of the real keys. And again, I go back to CB2. I think they've done that so well. I think they've stayed on that brand. They know who they are and they know who they aren't. And I think that they've found a very strong little market. Absolutely. And they've done something interesting that, you know, also DWR does and that we've done over the years and they partner with sort of like-minded designers or brands to create products. So, you know, their CV2 is using us, you know, to design a line. We're working with someone like Disc Interiors to design a line for us.

47:38So we have that, you know, relationship as well to our designers and our community. And I think that that's so special. I think being able to design pieces with, you know, people who inspire you and people who are sort of simpatico with you, it's really powerful. And we get some really good results from that. Well, and I'm so glad you mentioned that, Glenn. And tell me how you think about that. Because yes, so you work with disc interiors, you work with Brian Paquette. I I mean, tell me what makes that happen. How do you pick this person that you're working with or that person you're working with?

48:11I mean, historically, we've picked people that we are friends with, people that are sort of in our tribe and that we want to spend time with and want to work with. Not that we don't want to spend time with everyone else, but we just have a bit of a shorthand with some of the people we've worked with and have worked with them for many years on their own projects. And it just became a sort of natural progression. we're about to launch a line um in the spring with josh green who did our new york showroom and that was a very organic process you know we were friends we work with him a lot on projects and you know he has great ideas and we're like well you should just you know do do some pieces let's see what what sticks and it's been a fun organic process like it it it has to be fun that's always our overriding thing like is this fun yeah the collaborative energy that we you know it really gets everyone and our creative team excited.

49:03And, you know, it brings in new blood. It brings in new ideas. You know, we get to work with, you know, another talented group of people and it's, it's very fun. And as Gunn said, it's people that we enjoy spending time with. So, and the product, I think the, what we come, what comes out of it, I think is better for it. And is it, so with Josh, for example, Josh Green, do you feel he's going to, he's going to create some pieces that you wouldn't have on your, on your own? Is he going to push you? Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. He, he, he definitely, I mean, it's definitely going to appeal. It's going to look fantastic in the New York show or middle of great in LA too, but it, it, it, you know, he's, he's a Southern, he's definitely, he's from, he grew up in Southern California, but it's, it's a New York, it definitely looks a little bit more like a New York line.

49:53He's pushed us with color. He pushed us with proportions. I mean, we're very excited about the line. It feels like us, but it feels very much like Josh do. That's great. That's exciting. That's something to look forward to. I want to talk, and I don't mean to bring down the room, but I mean, the wildfires in LA and I mean, some of the people we just mentioned were impacted directly and a lot of people in your community, obviously. And it's going to be a long time rebuilding and figuring out where this all goes. Tell me how you're thinking about it and sort of how it's all going at the moment. Grant and I started our business in Pasadena and lived in Altadena for many years.

50:46And that community is extremely important to us and something we know very well. I can't speak too much to the Palisades, but Altadena I know well, and I know that that community is extremely integrated and resourceful and will come back strong. And I think that it could be a beautiful thing and there could be some opportunity there to build back something really special. Yeah. I mean, the challenge for LA was that already the housing market had been pretty challenging and obviously this only elevates all of those challenges. Were you feeling the impact of the housing challenges in LA prior to all of this?

51:30Was that having a meaningful? I mean, we've had a good year up this year. It's been a strong year. I do think that it's a different, it's a little bit different. There's a lot of people who are remodeling homes. Not a lot of, like you say, there's not a lot of people moving and sort of trading up or sideways, which, you know, is so much happens in LA like that all the time. People are staying in houses for two years and that's not happening as much. And I think that, you know, we are benefiting from people wanting to refresh and, you know, sort of we're going to stay put for a while. And I think the reality of like, if I'm staying here, I want this done and that done.

52:14And, you know, with our clientele, we haven't really felt it too much. It's interesting because we've talked a lot about how the industry as a whole is imagining that this is still going to be a time, to your point, Grant, where more remodeling or renovating versus houses aren't moving a lot in a lot of key markets around the country. And so we're thinking, are people going to be taking some home equity out or are people just going to be investing more in that place that they're going to stay because they've got that super sweet 3 % mortgage and they're never leaving again? God bless those people.

52:58I wish them well. It's a little bit of a noisy time right now. And the tariffs conversation and also, I mean, the LA workrooms, I'm assuming the immigration crackdown is also potentially an unnerving issue for many parts of our industry, to be honest. And I'm hoping that it's not going to really become a much bigger issue. How are you thinking about it or planning for it? Or are you just sort of waiting to see what really happens before you get all worked up about it? Yeah, we're taking a wait and see approach for sure. Luckily, the tariffs don't affect us because we make everything here in Southern California.

53:50So we're lucky. You know, that was the same. I remember talking to you, Dennis, very early on in the pandemic. And we had a supply chain conversation, which was such a fun thing to talk about back in 2020, 2021. And we didn't have that issue because we're making everything here. So we weren't waiting on boats from overseas and we weren't waiting on materials from afar. So I think by keeping it super local, we've been able to kind of ride the wave of some of these things that are pain points for other people in our industry, which we're very fortunate. And it's even more reason to double down on sort of staying domestic and staying local for us.

54:29As we wrap up, I wonder, is there another key market that is showing you strong enough growth that you're thinking, I get it, you just opened New York, not rushing to the next market. But I mean, is there another place in the country that seems to make sense for you in the not so distant future? Yeah, I think we're good with these two cities for now, and then we'll see where we land. but we have no immediate third market that we're eyeing yet. I think just the product, I mean, the only thing I would add is that we know we definitely want to expand more into lighting designs. We're both, we're very interested in lighting design.

55:11We're also very interested in outdoor furniture. We've never really had the space to show too much of it in the showroom, but I think we're, we're going to try to, you know, we're going to try to expand that outdoor line and, and, and shoot it offsite. And even though we won't be able to hold a lot of it in our, in our two retail stores, you know, People will hopefully trust us and buy it. And we are a SoCal brand, so it makes a whole lot of sense for us to have a pretty flushed out outdoor line. Yeah. And I think as technology is sort of advanced with outdoor fabrics, I mean, what you can get for an outdoor fabric now is unbelievable.

55:44And outdoor foams. I think it really is exciting. It's an exciting category to design for now. Yeah. I mean, and that was a lot of why people weren't as excited about it before because of that hand on that fabric and some of the other. Right. I mean, it was like, oh, yeah, we could do it. But yeah, it's white's umbrella or gray's umbrella. Yeah. Sort of, you know, the thing for many years. And now it's like, oh, wow, we can have an outdoor Belgian linen. Cool. Velvet. Bucle. I mean, the sky's the limit. All right. Well, we'll stay tuned for that. Thank you both so much for making the time to talk with me.

56:20I really appreciate it. Thanks, Senator. Well, thank you, Dennis. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda.

56:59I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.