Madeline Stuart is so over 'scavenger decorating'

34:41Maybe not silly, beautiful, but beautiful, but beautiful, you know, Nantucket, you know, baskets and whale, what do they call them? What are those things on the top of a house? Weathervane. Weathervane. Yes. Cut. Yes, a weathervane. There you go. Yes, a weathervane. Of course, a weathervane. But, you know, we started to kind of inculcate ourselves into Nantucket aesthetic and vibe. And that was fun. And it was unique to that project. It didn't look like another project. That's my passion and it's my pleasure. So explore different references. Explore different ideas, especially from the past and how the past influences what we do now.

35:38I look to the past to see the future. I want to reinterpret the past to be contemporary. I know that, you know, Kelly Wurstler does the same thing and she does it brilliantly. She looks back to the 70s or the 60s or 70s or 80s to come up with her own version of that aesthetic and that period. And that's so much a part of what she has done with, you know, her look and her style. And I admire that. And when I did a house that was based on a streamlined, modern, decorative style, that's what I wanted to explore, but also bring it into the present. You know, we're not creating rooms for the Met. We live in a contemporary age and space and time.

36:39I just don't want to do things that feel of a period. I don't want my interiors to be carbon dated. And I fear that sometimes when people look back on what is so au courant now, it's going to be with a bit of chagrin at how kind of dated it looks, all those bedspreads that, you know, puddle onto the floor and trip you in the middle of the night when you get up to go to the loo, you know, because there's, you know, two extra yards of fabric. Is that something we're going to look back on in one year, in four years, in 10 years, and say, oh my gosh. Is that something you're very conscious of, not wanting the work that you do to have a timestamp?

37:29Absolutely. I think that's what drives most of my work, is that it needs to be authentic, but it needs to be authentic to the time, to the client, to their life, to the architecture, I loathe pretension. I loathe interiors that are created for and by the designer to reflect their own aesthetic and their own lifestyle. At the end of the day, of course, the aesthetic's been driven by my knowledge, by my experience, by my understanding of architecture, decorative arts, design, art, history, everything. But the house has to belong to those clients, and they have to feel at home in their home. And it can't solely be a reflection of my instincts and my desires.

38:25It has to look like their house. And to me, there's nothing worse than looking in someone's book or a magazine, and it reflects nothing about the people that live there. I don't ever want my clients to wake up and look around and say, you know, why do we have that? Or I never liked that table and she made us buy it and dang it, I still don't like it. You know, this is a decision we make together in concert and respecting how they live and how they want to live. And sure, it's filtered through my lens. And they may never thought of doing something this way or the other. But if they do, then we're going to do it.

39:19If they don't, we're not going to do that. so i think that's really that's also an important lesson for young designers to really you've got to listen to your clients not the ones who have really bad taste but the ones um don't listen to them don't listen to them uh because they have really bad taste and um you know some people they don't want to meet you halfway in which case they're not great clients I want everyone to work for great clients, the ones that do want to learn and enjoy the process. And this is not a combat sport and it shouldn't be treated like one. And I've had clients like that who want to win every point, who want to like drive you into submission and show you that they're in charge and be the boss.

40:17and that's not fun for anybody. And it's certainly not a project that I am going to want to work on. So those clients either, you know, they end up being fired or they just, you know, we both realize that this is not meant to be. And like the guys you dated along the way or the women who, you know, who didn't work out, we're not always meant for one another. And if you have a client who you feel is combative and aggressive and fighting to get their way, bow out because it's never going to get better and it's only going to be painful. And I had a client that was so mean and so demanding and so disrespectful.

41:17And I worked for her for a long time because I didn't want her to win. I didn't want her to think that she had the power over me and that she made me quit and that would make me look weak. And she could say to her Hollywood friends, oh, Madeline couldn't cut it. oh, Madeline just walked away. And you know what? I should have walked away. And did you know right away that she was that way? Could you tell right away that she was going to be that way? You know pretty soon. You know soon enough. Yeah. You know soon enough. The signs are there. And I chose to stick it out. I can beat this woman at a game.

42:06And you know what? you can't. You can't. Because some people, as I once said to another client, I've had some real doozies in my career. And all designers have. All designers have. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I once said to a client, you are so committed to your own personal unhappiness that I can't continue because nothing is ever going to make this client happy, satisfied, gratified. She is just happy to be unhappy. And I think that's something that it takes time to learn. And for all the young designers out there, don't take the time to learn it. Trust me, it's not going to end well. You've got to walk away.

42:55Well, and one of the challenges in the community that you work in a lot, Hollywood, It's a tightly knit group and they all seem to know each other and they all, right? And so. And I don't work for as many Hollywood people now because let's face it, they're all crazy. So I, you know, my, most of the people I work with now come from the world of, you know, business and finance and, uh, and money. And, uh, and that's a great client to have, um, the ones with money, but that's also a tight knit. group. And I have worked for, you know, right now I'm working for one client who knows five of my other clients.

43:39And believe me, I keep that in mind. I also wonder how, you know, when you do work in a tight-knit community, and there was someone also from Los Angeles who shall go unnamed, But Barbara Berry worked for so many people in town, and I would see time and time again some of the same pieces in all these various clients' homes. And I always wondered, what do those clients think when they walk into their best friend's house or, you know, a dinner party at someone else's house and they see the same light fixture or the same fabrics or the same rugs? doesn't it look as though the designer didn't, they didn't take the time to make something unique or that it was, they bought it cheaper by the dozen or that it's just more expedient to just keep going back to the same well and getting the same water.

44:42So I don't know. I always keep that in mind that, that everybody knows each other. It's a very small world. Right. And the last thing you want is for somebody to walk into someone else's house and think that they got something unique for their home and to see it, you know, writ large in a house that their designer did for someone else.

45:07We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Designers know that proportions make all the difference. And that difference starts with Ernesta. Find a custom-sized rug that elevates your vision when you join Ernesta's trade program. You'll receive dedicated one-on-one support, preferred pricing, and unlimited samples curated for your project. To apply for membership to Ernesto's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesto.com slash boh. And now, back to the show.

45:46so you jokingly say that you you moved on from a lot of the celebrity clients because they were they were a little too crazy but i mean our celebrity clients are they are they fun do they do they bring an element of excitement or or are you are you do you sometimes think oh this project will get published because it's got this name attached to it or that or does that not really matter to you so much anymore. That doesn't matter to me. And I think there are so many celebrity clients that I have that would never wish to be named in a publication. That's not what drives me. There are designers who want to work for celebrities because they want to be associated with that famous person.

46:33I did work for Lindsey Buckingham of Fleetwood Mac, and he was He was a wonderful client, and his wife at the time was very much interested in being featured, and so she was on the cover of Town & Country, and their house appeared in Town & Country. And that was something they were willing to do. And that was good for them both, I guess, or for her. But a lot of my clients, and I have to say, I think things are a little different today because there's so many people who are famous because they're influencers or they're exposed to the world in a way that they crave that celebrity. They crave that publicity.

47:16They want to be featured and seen as larger than life. Those are not my clients. And that's okay. And look, I've had fabulous times working for a lot of those people. And yes, they're crazy. And that's what makes it fun. And that's what makes it exciting. And that's why I remember when I went out the very first time to San Francisco to shop for antiques with Jason again, you know, because this was 30 years ago and a height of his fame on Seinfeld. And I remember Dana saying to me, you know, don't be surprised when people stop Jason in the street. And I thought, oh, my God, this woman has such an inflated sense of her husband's celebrity.

48:09well if we weren't stopped you know a thousand times you know whether it was on the plane or in the street or in a cab or in the antique store or walking or at a restaurant those you know you have no idea what it's like to be that famous until you're with someone that famous and you know, when people are at the height of their, you know, notoriety or celebrity or, you know, visibility, and all of a sudden you realize that the entire world knows who they are. It's pretty heady stuff, but it also does things to their mind and their sense of self. And, you know, it's something to be both admired and feared.

49:01To be sure. And I think it can have quite an effect on people. I know that in today's media world, it is often a ticket to getting a project published or to getting that level of exposure. And it sounds to me like that's not nearly as important to you. If in fact it ever was that important to you, I'm not really sure of that either. You know, it was early on. And my very first project that saw the light of day in print was in Elle Decor. I am eternally grateful to Marion McAvoy and Margaret Russell for putting me in the magazine. and my client had a, she had a last name that was very well known.

49:55Her father was quite famous and they tried every which way to put her in the magazine. They wanted this project, which I'm still insanely proud of, all these years later, they wanted her name to be associated with this house. And the client said, absolutely no. Thank goodness they published the story anyway, because the client both was generous enough to want that for me. And, you know, and the project was good enough that it didn't need a famous name attached, I'm proud to say. But I understand why for magazines, they feel celebrity sells issues. And in a day and age as we're in now, where the magazines are thinner and thinner and desperate for readership, a celebrity can sell, sure, put so-and-so on the cover.

50:57And if they have a huge Instagram following or, you know, people recognize that name and want to see how and where they live, then by all means, I understand why they do it. I just wish it wasn't so. Design should be a meritocracy, and it shouldn't be because you do a house for Kim Kardashian. It shouldn't be about that. It should be about beauty, excellence, architecture, wit, charm, elegance. It should not be because so-and-so lives there. And that is kind of a bummer to me. I think that's sad. A.D. always had, you know, a Hollywood issue and maybe it was Liza's house or maybe it was Humphrey Bogart's house, if anyone out there knows who that is.

51:48But I just think we should focus on the work, the quality of the work. That should be how interiors are judged in the same way we judge films. We judge, you know, there are people who review work of artists professionally. We don't have that in our industry. And why is that, do you think? Why isn't there design criticism? I mean, because we talk about this all the time, Madeline. Where is this? Why can no one just write? And I mean, Mayor Russ is one of the people that comes to mind, like Mayor. He used to. He used to. He used to. The testy tastemaker used to be quite opinionated about this project or that project.

52:32I get it. He's in a different kind of position now and he can't be as outspoken as he once was in his youth. But I don't – I mean, I understand commercially it's hard for L. Decor or A.D. to have someone on staff who's not going to worry about an advertiser and just say whatever they want. But somebody needs to be out there saying, you know, here's great work and why and take a look at it. And I don't know, maybe it's you, Madeline. Maybe you want to step into that role. As I said, I have nothing but opinionated. So I, in my own little way, I put out my design crimes on my Instagram stories and I point out things that I think are truly criminal.

53:26Sometimes it's architecture, sometimes it's design, sometimes it's interior architecture, sometimes it's fashion. And if I didn't have this pesky day job, I would do that all day long because I am one to call out the fact that the emperor has no clothes when it is appropriate. And I once spoke to the fabulous, incredibly talented Dara Caponegro, who now produces the beautiful Frederick magazine and is the design director for Schumacher. And we were at a luncheon and I told her about my design crimes and she said, if only I thought I could get away with publishing them in the magazine, I said, I'll do it.

54:15I'll do it. I'm too old to care about what people think about me. And that's both true and not true. But when I decide to retire, that's when I will write my own version of The Testy Tastemaker. I can't wait. And I will lay it on the line because, can I tell you, I feel like I'm one of those people, and this is so narcissistic and egotistic, but my father had perfect pitch musically. I feel like I have perfect pitch when it comes to design. I mean, people are, I can see them rolling their eyeballs and snickering as they hear this, but I truly believe that I have a kind of perfect pitch when it comes to the good, the bad, and the ugly.

55:10And so it would give me endless hours of amusement to do this in my dotage and publish it. As it would give the world, Madeline, as it would give the world were you to do that. So I can't wait for you to hang up. Can you wrap up these projects that you're working on now? Can you let the staff know. You've got a couple years left, and then I'm going to publish The Design Crime, and it will be a series. It won't just be one book. It will be like an anthology. There will be many volumes. I cannot wait. I can't wait. The world can't wait. I mean, that's the thing. The world can wait. They're going to hear this episode, and they're just going to be, when is this happening?

55:55When is this coming? Because, I mean, and I don't know, And I love that you used the word loathe earlier when you were talking about sort of people's own selves not coming through in a project. But I mean, what comes to mind for you design crime wise? You know, you've talked about scavenger decorators in the past. And I don't know if you want to explain what that is and your take there. But I mean, what's top of mind for you? Well, to me, scavenger decorating is about scrolling through a bunch of Pinterest images and just culling whatever you find and throwing it into a pot and serving it up to a client.

56:41and with very little thought or interest or inspiration or originality. That's my definition of scavenger decorating. I think too many people kind of, well, and everyone complains about beige and grayish and lack of this, that, or the other. And yet it seems like that's what everybody's doing. and you know people are afraid to be maximalist or they're afraid to be minimalist or they're afraid you know they're they're just kind of constrained by their own lack of of imagination and i think you know we were talking previously about somebody like martin brudnitsky and how he has fully embraced this maximalistic layer upon layer, fabric upon fabric, pattern upon pattern aesthetic, which he does in a way that is so personal to him.

57:46He's not merely absorbing the work of Tony Duquette or this one or that one or somebody from another period. He's taken all that, surely, but he's an original. And Miles Redd, he does what he does, whether you like it or not. He's an original. It may not be to everyone's taste, but he does it with a sure hand and a knowledge of what he likes and he's not afraid. And I think so many people are afraid to be themselves or speak their mind. It's about trying to find your own voice as a designer. And that does take time. And it's not easy to be fearless. And so I always applaud the designers who are fearless.

58:43And I'm not saying I am by any means, but the ones that are, they know who they are, and we know who they are. And it's something to be respected, even if you don't appreciate the work. But I think we need to get, right now I feel like we're in a bit of a rut and it's a rut of sameness. And I think it would benefit design and humanity to move on, move on, move on already. I do think there's something to be said for a basic education in design. And in the same way, an abstract expressionist still needed to learn how to draw a figure and a line and a tree and a profile. And then they could become Franz Kline or Jackson Pollock.

59:40But they knew how to draw. Great composers learned from Bach and Beethoven and Mozart, even if they became John Cage or Philip Glass. I feel the same with design. You should know who Nancy Lancaster is and her yellow room, whether you emulate it, despise it, think it's silly, or has no reference to your own aesthetic. You should know who Jean-Michel Frank was, who Francis Elkins was, who Dorothy Draper was, and who some of the more current, you know, John Fowler, you know, Albert Hadley, these people who really developed a style that we're still emulating and, let's face it, copying today. Whether we know it or not.

1:00:29And that's the thing. I feel like people don't know the reference and don't even realize that they're emulating Nancy Lancaster or John Fowler or some of the other names. Jean-Michel Frantz. Jean-Michel Frantz, exactly. You know, when rappers and hip-hop artists, they'll take a beat or they'll take an accent from a song that maybe the people who are listening to it now don't recognize, but I know that that came from something that somebody did 30 years ago. Even a hip-hop artist or a rap star is looking to the past to influence their music today. at god i sound like such an old woman she used to be in the record business that i mentioned right like something they call hip-hop or rap music um heaven help me anyway the point being that we are all influenced by the past whether we know it or not so take a minute to know what you're referencing Look at how some of these designers could combine incredibly modern art and furniture with a French 18th century chair or put it in cowhide or look at how they were able to combine antiques and modern lighting and Renaissance artwork.

1:01:59work you know when I when I look at somebody like Jacques Grange who is you know one of my all-time heroes and I look at work he did 50 years ago and I I say that is fresh that is chic that is now that is wow that is something that stands the test of time can I say that about what someone is doing today or what I'm doing today. I want to be able to say that about my own work. That to me is the greatest achievement of a designer's legacy, that you can look back at something and not have it be cringeworthy. I wish that for all designers. So anyway, I'm just an old battle axe blathering along and, you know, I feel like I'm on a soapbox, you know, in Central Park, just either preaching to the choir or preaching to no one who's out there listening.

1:03:03I think you're driving the message home. Last thing before we get to the lightning round. And since I spoke to you last, I went back and rewatched all about Eve because you mentioned about Phoebe being named after Phoebe at the end of that movie. And I'm so glad that I did. And it got me thinking about so many. And you and I talked recently about just some great old movies. Something that I feel not enough people are taking advantage of is going back and watching the great Myrna Loy and William Powell movies or the great Cary Grant movies. But I mean, tell me about how you think about that. And are there any that come to mind that are just sort of great design films?

1:03:47Oh, I absolutely. And there is no question but that my taste and my, my, my aesthetic was driven by watching old movies. And I was, I know this is hard to believe, but I was incredibly unpopular as a kid. And I was, you know, quite a loser in the day. And my friend Nicole and I would stay at home on Friday and Saturday nights and we would watch old movies and be captivated by the movies of the 30s and 40s and what have you. And I learned about design from watching the old MGM movies where most of the art direction and set design was done by Cedric Gibbons, the famous art director for the MGM studios who was the one who invented the statue of the Oscar statuette and whose home I was able to restore, a home that he designed for himself.

1:04:54Anyway, he's one of my idols. And if you happen to catch a film that is one of the old MGM musicals starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, he did all their movies. So whether it was The Wizard of Oz or a Fred Astaire movie or Pride and Prejudice or anytime you see a film where he has reinterpreted or the art, whatever art director of whatever film, they have either reinterpreted rooms of the past, rooms of the present time in which the movie was made, or rooms of the future in which they're envisioning what's going to happen many years down the road. So there's a room in North by Northwest, James Mason, The Villain's Lair.

1:05:45And it's a great Hitchcock film with Cary Grant. Such a great movie. Such a fabulous film. And when you look at the living room in this film, there is nothing you would change today. It looks so chic and so timeless. Everything in that room, the lamps, the lampshades, the furniture, it represents the time. but it also feels so au courant. And there are so many films like that. So I watched Chinatown for the interiors, if not the incredible performances by Jack Nicholson and Faye Dunaway and John Huston. Watch any film of the past and understand the world in which they were trying to create in the film.

1:06:33And then that might inform the way you're trying to create a room or a molding or a staircase, anything that might be informed by old movies. So yes, I love old films and with All About Eve being way there at the top and the sets from My Man Godfrey. Oh, My Man Godfrey. We were talking about that the other day. Way up there at the top of my list. so divine height of 1930s style and glamour. Okay, what's next? Okay, lightning round. Here we go. Ready? Oh no. Okay. I hope so. Most overrated color in design? Grays. One item in the room that should never be cheaped out on or you should never skimp on spending on?

1:07:22Sofa. Everyone says sofa, but it's true. Least glamorous part of your job? deciding on which side the toilet paper holder should go on, left or right. And where do you come down? Does it depend on the person being left-handed or right-handed? It's something you actually have to ask of the client. It's not a glamorous moment, I assure you. And what's more dangerous, Pinterest or TikTok? Pinterest. Yeah. And I say that only because I've never been on TikTok. it's not just because i'm an old fogey it's because i don't trust myself instagram is enough of a rabbit hole for me um and i re everyone says if you went on tiktok you would um you'd never leave the house so uh so it's it's out of self-preservation and my work ethic that i don't go on tiktok but i i would say pinterest because really when I have had people in my office, you know, when we're looking at it, it's deadly dull.

1:08:31And it's not, it's nothing you'd want to emulate. Yeah, good point. Okay, dinner party with three design icons. Who's at your table? Oh, Francis Elkins, Jacques Grange, and probably, ooh, that's so hard. So hard. As she turns around to admire her design library. You know, it's probably, between Jean-Michel Franck and Albert Hadley. Okay, okay. I like it. I like it. A well-designed room should always...

1:09:06Should always eschew recessed lighting. Mmm. Or if you want to put it in a more positive light, a well-designed room should always have sconces, ceiling fixtures and lamps and as few or as little recessed lighting as possible. Okay, good one. Finally, what would your - No, not finally. I want to do this all day so I don't have to go back to work because this is so much fun. Okay, finally. Okay, finally. Well, listen, I've got a lot more. I mean, so I'm going to throw you a couple more. So design pet peeve that you will never get over. And I know you've got many design pet peeves. So, I mean, hit me.

1:09:52Right now, it's that damn draped bedspread that is all over the ground. What is with that? I know. I mean, it looks great in a photo, but you know darn well that the people, the minute the photo shoot is over, they take that thing off because there's no question but that they would trip over it in the middle of the night and break their leg, if not a hip. So that is truly one of my pet peeves. The other is the kitchen waterfall island, the marble waterfall island. Enough is enough. Enough of the marble waterfall island. Okay. I was reading where you had gotten irate about cabinets that were designed to cover the fridge, but they sort of look like cabinet handles and you just went off about that.

1:10:44Who knows what will just set you off, honestly? Almost anything, I'm sure. Almost anything. You know, I've come to terms with the panelized refrigerator. Have you? It's not my preference because to me, you're not fooling anyone. You're in a kitchen. There's going to be a refrigerator, let's face it. So I'm of the mind that you should just understand it's a kitchen, respect that there's going to be a refrigerator and not go out of your way to hide it. I understand that there are occasions when, and perhaps I've come around to this, and perhaps this is a sign of maturation. Once again, the growth that Madeline Stewart is great.

1:11:31That it is something to be considered. What I will never, ever get over are cabinets that stop two to three to four inches from the ceiling, where unless you have a side gig as a dust collector, where you collect dust for fun and profit, what is going on up there that you would not want your cabinets to just go the extra three inches or two inches to meet the ceiling so that you don't have to be concerned about dust collection. That truly, I will never get over that. I am with you there. And I want to talk to the people who are collecting dust for fun and profit. I want to meet those people. So finally, oh, one more before I get to the final one.

1:12:25So design books, you've got a million of them behind you. You always do. Is there a favorite? Is there a handful of favorites that you just go to again and again? Tell me. Well, this is going to sound so, just so heightfalutin and kind of, just kind of gross.

1:12:50But I'm going to answer truthfully. Okay. Okay, finally. We're going to get some truth from you. Yeah, because none of my other answers have been honest. But quite truthfully, one of my great passions is Spanish revival and Hispano-Moresque architecture. And I grew up in a Spanish revival house, and I live in a Spanish revival house, and I have restored many Spanish revival homes. And so that style and aesthetic is really a great passion of mine. So my most dog-eared books are those that were written in the 1920s by Mildred and Alfred Stapley Bynes, the Bynes. And they wrote all these books and all of the photographs that they took and the drawings have been my lodestar, my north star, my guiding light for almost everything I've ever done in that design aesthetic.

1:13:57And all of my books on Spanish design and architecture are the ones that in a fire I would probably grab. okay okay but that's just for me i would encourage anyone to find what they're most passionate about whatever that is uh it could be designed from the 1960s or the 70s or furniture from the 30s whatever it is and um and find your inspiration through those worlds through the past into the present. So finally, what would your younger self be surprised to know about your career today? That I have developed the knowledge and the confidence that I now have in what I do, that I am no longer a travesty of a mockery of a fraud who was just kind of winging it and by sheer bravado and by sure dint of my determination, kind of like not faking my way through, but trying to establish myself as somebody who knew what they wanted to know.

1:15:19And now I don't know it all. I have so much to learn, but I think my younger self would be surprised to know how confident and self-assured and secure in the knowledge that I am as my older self. So let it be heard around the land that to thine own self be true, be authentic. I like the thought that your younger self would be impressed with your confidence and how you've evolved and grown, right? And I think I wish that for all of us, that we will all evolve and grow and hopefully grow wiser and kinder. And kinder. Right? And kinder. Yes. Yeah. Well, Madeline, sadly, I have to let you go and you do have to get back to work.

1:16:14Yeah, I got to get back to work. Yeah, you got to get back to work, but you've made it very fun for us. So I'm grateful to you for that. And I thank you for making the time and a pleasure to chat with you as always. Well, Dennis, it was my pleasure, truly, and an honor to be on your podcast. And if anyone learned anything, I will be just delighted. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more.

1:16:56If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.

1:17:23Good nightfacto