Nicole Hollis's superpowers

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Nicole Hollis. A veteran of the hospitality world, Nicole was part of the team that developed the W Hotels before going out on her own and pivoting to residential work. Over the course of two decades, Nicole has built up an impressive firm with a team of nearly 100 working out of her San Francisco office. Their projects take them all over California and the world beyond. And Nicole has won numerous accolades for her work, including regular appearances on both Eldecor's A-List and the AD100.

0:52I spoke with Nicole about how she built a big firm, step by step, why residential projects are proving to be more lucrative for her firm than commercial work, and why so much of her work with clients is about communicating the most in the least amount of time possible.

1:16This podcast is sponsored by Lalloy, whose latest introductions include seven new handmade Goodweave certified rug collections, as well as new collections from Bridget Romanek, Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines, Amber Lewis, and Gene Stouffer. Visit laloyrugs.com to explore them all. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And follow them on Instagram and TikTok at laloyrugs. This podcast is also sponsored by Krypton. Take advantage of Krypton's luxury performance fabrics through Rowe Furniture's exclusive trade program. Rowe Furniture, a premier domestic upholstery vendor, offers an exceptional trade program with concierge service, complimentary Krypton fabric samples, and dedicated project assistance.

2:09Roe empowers you to customize your perfect piece with Krypton fabrics in an array of stunning colors and styles, seamlessly blending beauty, durability, and comfort. Each piece of furniture is meticulously hand-inspected, and photos of your customized order are sent before shipping, ensuring you stay informed without any hassle. For more information about the program, visit rowportal.com slash join. That's R-O-W-E-P-O-R-T-A-L dot com slash join. And if you're attending High Point Market next month, don't miss the designer brunch at Row Furniture Showroom in the Showplace Building, co-sponsored by Krypton.

2:53on Sunday the 27th from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. Learn more at krypton.com slash R-O-W-E. And now, on with the show. Tell me about the early days for you, a little bit of where you grew up and what you were imagining as a young person you wanted to do and be. I grew up in Jupiter, Florida. You know, typical childhood. But as far as design and sort of creativity, I have sort of neurodiversity, dyslexic, and the way that my brain works is very visual. And I think from a very young age, I could just see things that other people weren't seeing. So I just could sort of rearrange shapes, objects, rooms. And so that was always creativity and sort of leaning towards the decorative arts and arts and crafts was very much my cup of tea from very early age.

3:59So I wasn't super into traditional academics. I did struggle in academics, I think, because I was dyslexic and not diagnosed. So it was harder for me. But I think figuring out at an early age the creativity side and really leaning into that, I studied graphic design for a little while, knowing that I wanted to study interior design, but there weren't any courses at the community college, in Palm Beach Community College. So I ended up studying graphic design just to be creative in some way. And then I applied and got into FIT. I think I really wanted to study fashion at a young age and then switch to interiors, probably high school age.

4:46And so FIT did not require SAT. And that was really important to me that I didn't have to take an entry exam. So I had a portfolio. I had two boxes of clothes and I moved to New York and I paid for my own education. So that's how I could afford. It was a state school. So that was in my budget. Stay with me on the dyslexia issue just for a moment, just because you mentioned it hadn't been diagnosed. And of course, we didn't know nearly as much about dyslexia. I wonder what people did say to you or how did people, because I lived with a woman who was also a graphic artist, had grown up dyslexic, and they didn't know what to make of it.

5:32Plus, she was left-handed, so they really wanted to break it up. It was not a positive experience. They didn't really know what to do with me. They didn't know where to put me in the coursework. They would recommend me for sort of remedial classes, and I said, well, I'm not mentally disabled. But they honestly didn't know where to put me. So it was a real challenge as a student and not understanding myself. So I couldn't really advocate for myself because I didn't really know what dyslexia was back then. So I didn't know. I just thought something was really wrong. But now that I know more about neurodiversity and can advocate for myself, I think it is a superpower.

6:18Tell me how it's a superpower for you. I guess the neurodiversity really helps with realizing ideas, exploring ideas. There's also this unique, when you have sort of this neurodiversity, you rely on others to help you. And so I, being able to delegate or hire people to do things that I know I could not do, I think it was less about control and being able to do everything. I just knew what I could do and what I couldn't do. I'm also very good at asking for help. And I'm not ashamed to. I'm not afraid to admit what I don't know. I love learning. So I'm always like, teach me. So if there's a legal issue, I am going to phone a friend who knows more about, or my lawyer, who knows more about legal issues.

7:10If it's a finance issue, I'm going to phone a friend. I think these are really good things to know about yourself where you're not saying you're not in control, you don't know anything. But I think it's always good to ask for help, ask questions, try and understand, and then you can together make a decision. I think as a student, I was not a great student. I think I did very well in my design courses at FIT. Did not do great in my just regular math English classes. Wasn't even interested in those. I worked full-time for an architecture firm. So I mostly attended night classes or morning classes and then went to work.

7:51So it was a big balance for me, but it was great skills because I learned so much real life experience at the architecture firm working on real projects simultaneously whilst I was in school. So you had a really good experience with FIT, yay, though you didn't want to stick around until the very end and... No, again, you know, I don't know. I wasn't an academic to begin with. So I think, you know, having a degree was not the goal. It was learning the skills that I felt like I needed. And between the practical work, working at an architecture firm and the coursework of the design at the time, I was, my boyfriend at the time was in store design and was recruited by The Gap and was moving to California and asked if I wanted to come along.

8:38And so I agreed and moved to California. So I just split town and I don't even think I let the school know. I don't know. I just kind of left. The architecture firm that you were working for during the day, tell me a little bit about what that was like. It was James Doria Associates. James Doria designed fashion retail showrooms and stores and in-store shops. I think there were about 12 architects and myself. It was a great education. They all were so caring and really, it was great having all those mentors. And Jim was a great mentor, very supportive of my education as well as the work we did.

9:22Made many introductions to the fashion world. So I felt extremely fortunate to have that real world experience at the same time. Yeah, no, no, to be sure. It sounds incredibly helpful. Okay, so boyfriend gets a job for The Gap, and we're off to San Francisco. With no resume, no plan for a job. Yeah, so I arrive in San Francisco and start, you know, building my portfolio, my resume, putting it together and applying for jobs. And, you know, I think the New York mentality and the California mentality was an adjustment. So I would send out my CV and apply for jobs and not hear anything or anything for weeks or weeks later.

10:09Usually in New York, you hear right away. It's a yes or no. And so it was very different pace for me. And I hadn't heard. And then I got a call from Starwood Hotels, and they were starting a new design group, the W Design Group. in San Francisco. And so I applied and they reached out to me, gosh, maybe like eight months later. And I interviewed and got the job as the specifications writer and worked on the public areas and restaurants for the W Hotels. And the W Hotels were really just bursting onto the scene, right? Well, it was just starting out. It was very new and yeah, great learning experience.

10:52I lasted a year. The woman I was replacing said, you're never going to make it a year here. And I was like, I'm going to hang in there until, and then. So why was that? Why did she think you weren't going to make it? Was it, was it just so intense? She said it was a tough, it was a tough working environment for sure. It was very demanding, long hours, very demanding. I was like, you know, I think I'm going to try something else. So I asked around and this name Howard Backen just kept coming up every time I asked anyone, you know, who or where, what firm should I work for? So I joined Howard and his interiors team and yeah, it was such a great experience working for Howard.

11:34What a great mentor. And we should explain for those who might not be familiar with Howard Backen who sadly passed recently, we should explain what his work was all about and what made him so special and why he'll so be remembered. When I started working for Howard, he had just started a new firm back in Gillum with Jim Gillum, his partner. And it was a tight knit group of really talented architects and designers. Howard had designed the Aspen Institute, Sundance for Robert Redford, and then just continued to work prolifically in Napa Valley on wineries and resorts and high-end residences. I worked for Howard full-time for about three and a half years, and then I started my own, well, I consulted and then started my own practice, and then we continued to work together throughout the years on projects.

12:37So on and off, I would say five years as a full-time and as a consultant. And then after that, we continued to work together. And when you were thinking about going off on your own, did you talk to him about that? No. I needed to take a break from work for personal reasons. And my husband encouraged me he's like why don't you start your own company he had already he's in tech and he had already started his own company and he's like why wouldn't you start your own business and i was feeling you know very conflicted i was really enjoying the work that i was doing with howard but i knew i needed to make some lifestyle changes so i agreed to you know start my own company so um i said okay right before i turned 30 i'm going to start my own company so when i was 29 i think it was like days before my 30th birthday, I started my own company.

13:33And one of my first projects was with Howard, designing a winery in Napa Valley. So it worked out great. But you really have to pay your dues and people don't just come running. I mean, back then there was no Instagram or even, you had maybe a webpage. So really establishing myself took quite a bit of time. So a lot of you really have to remind people who you are. And I think, you know, as great as technology is today, I mean, really it's about trust and personality, just personality fit. Is this someone I want to work with? You know, so I think showing up at events, I would ask architects, contractors, builders, if I could have lunch with them, if I could introduce myself, talk about the work that I do.

14:26So it was really just pounding the pavement, really establishing myself. I mean, I would rely on the network of people that I had met through Starwood and through Howard, but also, you know, wanting to have new branches of work. So really just getting out there and face-to-face meetings. But I think, you know, it's hard to talk about yourself. So you really have to ask a lot of questions and architects love to talk about themselves. So that was easy. So I think just asking them questions, learning about their work, learning how I can be supportive, you know, and making sure they really just want to know that they can trust an interior designer to come into their projects and not change their work or, you know, de-emphasize the architecture, like overshadow.

15:14Like I really reminded them that my experience has always been working for architects designing interiors. So I'm very architect friendly. I speak the language. My drawings are as good as theirs. So there's communication, visual communication, and visual respect. And collaboration is really important to me. And so I think just gaining that trust over the years and really communicating the work style, the emphasis on collaboration, the respect that they're, I mean, these architects are highly respected in their field. And why should they work with me? So I think you really do have to talk about your work and talk about what you can deliver to them.

15:57So for me, it was just reassuring them that I understand their workflow and that I can just dovetail into that instead of taking over. So how long did it take you? A long time. I see all these young designers. They started their business five minutes ago and they have a million followers and they're on the cover of magazines. And I was like, gosh, it took me so long. For me, I was slow and steady for a reason. I really wanted to grow my business slowly. I knew that the way to have a competitive edge was to be able to not only design beautiful spaces, but to be able to deliver the best service out there.

16:44So I didn't want to grow super fast. I knew that reputation was all you really have. So the last thing you want is to take a job and not be able to deliver the best service on time, on budget. And so I just, yeah, I was very cautious about growing big. Um, my husband and partner in business, Lewis Heathcote came on as our CEO and that's when things started getting bigger. That's when we started growing and taking bigger projects and making bigger hires. And that was, that was great knowing that I had someone that could manage that sort of growth and business side that I could focus on the creative was the way to go for me.

17:31Does how you just described that suggest that Lewis was encouraging you to grow the firm and pushing you along somewhat? Yeah, absolutely. I think, I mean, having a, it doesn't have to be, you know, a life partner, but having a partner in your business that isn't focused on the design, but more focused on the business side, I think was a relief for me to, to accept, to say, okay, we can, because if you're doing everything on your own, it's a lot. And then when you start employ, you know, having lots of employees, that's a lot to manage. And that's taking my attention away from my goal, which is delivering the best design service.

18:12So I think having someone that I could trust to make those key hires and to keep the trains running on time while I'm out there, you know, focusing my attention where it needs to be focused on the clients. So I think that just gave me more confidence in the idea of growing. One thing that was a key for us is we kept getting potential project inquiries, but we couldn't take them because we had maxed out on the size of our studio physically. We could not make any more hires. There was no more space for people to sit. I was already sharing a desk with like four people. Like we had a big table and we were all sitting there together.

18:57And so we're just jammed in there. And so it was really the leap of like, we're going to need a bigger office. And I have a client who I was sitting, we were in Malibu, we were talking about his project. And then he said, well, what's going on with you? Like, I can tell something's up. And I was like, yeah, I'm a little stressed because I'm kind of in this place where I could grow my business, I could get bigger, but I don't physically have the space. So it's kind of tough, you know, to turn down all these projects. And he's like, well, what do you need? And I said, well, we need to get a new space and that's going to cost a lot of money and get it up and running.

19:37And he said, well, let me know how much you need and maybe I can help. So Lewis and I put together what we thought it would cost to move into a new space and modestly build it out the way we need to, to make some new hires. and he said, great, I will loan you the money. So he gave us a loan. Really? And we found our new space and we paid him back over the years, but that was like the one big pivotal moment for us was like moving into the space where we can really have more space to hire and bigger layout areas and more conference rooms. And it was just ready for that. and that was really limiting our ability to grow.

20:22So when did that happen, Nicole? When did the loan come in and the business really start to scale? I would say maybe 10 years ago. It was definitely a godsend for us. And it was just, I hadn't even thought of borrowing money. I just thought, I can't do that. And he's like, sure you can. And you could pay me back whenever you can. And first year is interest-free. the rest you'll pay regular interest. So that was very helpful.

20:56We're taking a quick break from the show to delve into the remarkable synergy between Krypton home fabric and Rowe furniture. This collaboration seamlessly blends Krypton's cutting edge, stain resistant, easy care fabrics with Rowe's unwavering commitment to craftsmanship and customization. With the Rowe Trade Platform, you can order custom upholstery on your schedule. The Rowe Trade Platform offers 24-7 access with full pricing transparency, enabling you to customize pieces in real time, order fabric samples, place orders, or save selections for later, all at your convenience. Once your account is set up, you'll have complete access to streamline your projects.

21:41Get started today at rowportal.com slash join. That's R-O-W-E-P-O-R-T-A-L dot com slash join.

21:57It's interesting because I'm curious. So many people were coming to you, you were turning jobs down because you couldn't grow the firm. What were people excited about? Why were people coming to you and what had they seen of your work do you think that they were responding to? You know, we had just finished a project in Hawaii that I think people were seeing. And, you know, I think we're getting a little more press and they're starting to take notice of the work that we were doing in the Bay Area and beyond. So I think it was more the work, you know it's it's a really tight i mean when you're in residential mostly your your work is referral work so either it's repeat client building another home like a vacation home or another home in another city or just upgrading their families growing and they need a bigger house or it's an architect that enjoyed their process with us and wanted to bring another project to us or a builder bringing us a project.

23:01So it was really just kind of word of mouth, like this firm not only does great work, but they can deliver. And I think I can't tell you how many times architects and contractors are like, we love working with your team because you are responsive. You are on schedule. You guys are really collaborative. And I think that is really important if you want to continue getting work from the same top builders and top architects. And the projects are not short. Typically, these are running three to five years. So you want to make sure who you're working with is going to be around. And also, they're going to be pleasure to work with.

23:40So we have a real good time. We all work really hard, but we have great partners, great contractors and architects that we work with and we repeat work with. So let's talk about the size of your firm because as you shared with me recently, it's not as though you set out to build this great big firm, but suddenly it is quite a sizable firm relative to other interior design firms, right? Yes. I always bring that up because when you say, oh my gosh, such a big firm, but architecture firms typically hover around the 60 to 70 people mark. And we're around, you know, we're between, say, 80 and 100. It fluctuates depending on how many projects we are and, you know, what the teams are.

24:29But, you know, we have grown this size and we didn't know if we would stay this size. It really is staffing the projects accordingly and making sure that everybody is supported. And so over the years, our purchasing department has grown. The projects are huge and there's a lot of purchasing to be done. So we have a team that handles all the expediting and purchasing for all the projects. We have a graphic design studio. We have two graphic designers on staff. They assist with all presentations. We have in-house renderers. We have an in-house engineer for the custom design furniture to make sure the furniture not only looks beautiful, but is built well and safe.

25:18And, you know, then we get into, we have, you know, front of house team as well. So all of that support for our design team is important and it's worked really well. Does it ever present a challenge for you? Do some people think, oh, her firm is so big, I could never afford to work with them? Absolutely. I mean, I think we may not be the right firm for maybe someone with a smaller project who maybe doesn't need all this staff or the support. But when we're talking about custom residences, so they're designed from the ground up. So we have interior architecture team working simultaneously with architect and builder and client.

26:04And then we follow up with our furniture studio that's furnishing the whole home. So it really is a very complex, long project that could last three years, maybe five years. Some of these are large estates. They have multiple buildings. They have big site work happening. So that's probably the right fit for us. If someone called me for a kitchen remodel, I probably wouldn't be the right size for them. We might be too robust for that kind of scope. So I think just because we're as many people as we are, we do staff the projects accordingly. I could only need two people on a project and that would be fine.

26:43So it really depends. A lot of clients have family offices. They need a lot of accounting support. They need tracking real time of finances. It takes a lot of backend to provide all of that work. Some firms are just not built for that and we are. I'm curious about the rise of family offices. I feel like that is showing up more. And it used to just be, oh, I used to run a hedge fund and now I have a family office. But now suddenly it's quite present. Most of our clients have a family office and it's great because they do so, other than the work that they're, most of them are still working. They're not retired.

27:21So they're doing their work, but they're also maybe doing philanthropy. They're also managing multiple homes, construction of maybe multiple homes and maybe beyond yachts or whatever it is that they are managing. And so that takes, you know, a lot to hire and they have their own staff and their own HR and their own accounting. And so it gets, you know, I could see how clients these days are starting their family offices to manage multiple prongs of their lifestyle. And, you know, what client doesn't want to know how much things cost and how much is left of the project and where we are in our fees.

28:01And so I think, You know, just having that staff that's managing that portion of the work and on our side and then any whatever they ask for. If they don't want any real time accounting, that's fine, too. We still have it. So if somebody calls on a whim and says, you know what, I have a meeting with the principal today and I need to present all the financials, we can get that to them. And I think that makes their life easier. So, of course, they're going to want to work with us on more of their properties. That's the hope anyway. Well, and I want to talk more about clients, but staying with the size of the firm, between hospitality and residential, what's the mix of projects for you?

28:45Because I know often you tend to scale up more for big hospitality projects. And so I'm wondering the balance of that for you. You know, we just completed two large hospitality projects and we're not really looking at too many new ones right now. We've reduced our hospitality studio. It was up to almost 30 people. And we've let some people go. Some people have left on their own because we're just focusing more on residential. And knowing that, they're like, you know what? We really want to stay hospitality. And I respect that. They need to go where they're happy. I would say we're maybe 10 % hospitality, which is not that big.

29:24Sometimes it's more family offices or corporate offices for our clients. So we'll work on their home and they'll say, can you guys work on our offices as well? That comes up. Occasionally a client is invested in development project and they've brought us in. We're just very robust for that kind of project and they may financially want to hire someone else, but sometimes we are brought into those projects. So poor hospitality, right? During COVID, oh my gosh, all the hotels couldn't open and all these other things happen to hospitality. And then suddenly the explosion and everybody traveling and everybody wanting to stay for weeks at a time at boutique hotels and just be outside.