Rodman Primack and Rudy Weissenberg want to turn clients into collectors

17:41Rudy Weissenberg:I mean, like he was working with the Lalance. You know, when Rodman was working on a project, I came to visit and the Lalance were on this step ladders hanging lamps. And, you know, people were not looking at the Lalance at the time.

17:54Rodman Primack:I mean, Peter really resurrected that market and was really buying and commissioning them in a time when people were disinterested. I would also say, Dennis, that the other thing that Peter made me really see and get excited about is kind of how you could build this library of textiles and found objects and just wait until the right moment. There was this kind of closet very near my desk that was filled with vintage and antique textiles that were just kind of stacked and waiting for usage somewhere. And that kind of thinking about not having to have something immediate, but like, you know, when you find something really, really beautiful and just know that it's beautiful, you just, you need to have it and have it wait for the right place and the right client.

18:49Rodman Primack:But it just was like this very mind-opening thing to be there and realize that this could also be kind of an artistic practice in a way. And not just like, oh, I've got to check this box and I've got to check this box and we've got to make sure here. There was so much artistry and, as Rudy was saying, commissioning from artists but also craftspeople and, you know, embroiderers. And, you know, like making curtains with Lesage or this person or that person. And, like, you were on a trip and you found that. That kind of like what Rudy and I call now squirreling, like we're squirrels and we're in these cities and we're like digging and finding things like that really became clear to me about the magic of Peter.

19:31Rodman Primack:You know, there's only so much capital in any project. And I think Rudy and I both look at it and think like, OK, it's so exciting that we can take some of this capital and use it in someone else's practice, that their practice can advance because we have the opportunity of doing this. Like we could go buy something, we could find something, we could place it there and spend that X amount of money. But if we take that X amount of money and take it into someone's studio and allow them to do something that they haven't done before or do something at a scale or like that is so great. And that is such a win for the client.

20:07Rodman Primack:That's such a win for the maker. That's such a win for us. And so understanding that and being able to put that into practice, not all the time, but in lots of moments in the project, I think we walk away and feel really good about having impacted an artist or a designer or makers, you know, their practice, but also in many cases having created the opportunity for the client to have made money down the road, which, you know, is also kind of exciting. Through the appreciation, you mean, of the collectible pieces and the things? For sure. We've done it now where we've had, you know, Prestige or one of the auction houses come in and take a look at a collection.

20:47Rodman Primack:And we've realized that for some clients, we have really made a lot of money for them. Like we've created a lot of value by collecting furniture. And it's wonderful to see it. And I think it really kind of underlines this point of how kind of practical it is in the long term for many people. And if you have the means to be not just decorating, but collecting.

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21:51Rodman Primack:Well, so Rodman, tell me when culturally collectible design, as we use this broad term to describe it today, When did that seem to creep more into the culture and the understanding? I think that's in the early 2000s and sort of the first decade of this century and maybe just at the kind of the turn of the century that we stopped shopping so much for antiques, stopped collecting so much in the antique world and started really focusing on 20th century design, collectible 20th century design. and contemporary collectible design. And there were these terms for it. There was, I think you'll remember and people remember that there was like auctions that were like called design art, design.

22:41Rodman Primack:Like there were all these different monikers in the early 2000s that finally settled on collectible design. And it was kind of a combination really of Phillips Auction House, which I was really involved with at the time, being the leader in that market and really defining that space alongside the advent of Design Miami coming out of Art Basel and people like Craig Robbins and some other collectors recognizing that there needed to be a kind of bracketing and an understanding of what this market was going to look like, which was not the 18th century French furniture market, not an English furniture market, but it was this other market that was looking at modernism and even mass-produced furniture that was holding value.

23:30Rodman Primack:And it established a different way and a different kind of taste. And it also, I think, comes out of a shift in taste where the people that used to collect 18th century French were like, oh, no, no, no, now I'm collecting Prouvé. I just want, I want Prouvé or Perrion. or like, you know, it was like, that's a kind of a taste thing. And now, you know, I think it's actually pretty common that people talk about collectible design work that comes out of a studio practice of a designer that probably does industrial work, but is also doing studio work and sign things. So these are kind of precious, but they're not so precious that you're not able to interact with them.

24:13Rodman Primack:And I think that trying to get more people to understand how truly special it is to have something handmade and that something handmade will most likely take longer than something that's not handmade, both in the production of it and the sourcing of it and blah, blah, blah. But that is like the truest luxury at this moment, to actually have something that you can see the hand of the maker, the time of the maker, their emotional investment in the piece. Like it just is so radical and I think brings such an energy and a difference into a project. like when you're able to bring the handmade. And there's an artist that Rudine and I have worked with in Mexico called Pedro Reyes and his wife, Carla Fernandez.

25:06Rodman Primack:She's a fashion designer. He's an artist. And one of the things that they've said over and over again is the future is handmade. And I love that thought so much that if you're in, again, this place of privilege where you can make choice, choose the handmade. hey, our job is to keep looking for those opportunities and keep pushing for those opportunities and hoping that clients will slow down with us long enough to, yes, to, you know, like let's footloom a rug that's going to take six months over, you know, something that can be fabricated. Like that to me is like the extraordinary gift of being able to do this.

25:48Rodman Primack:Well, I wonder, coming back to this piece in the New York Times recently about your gallery in Mexico and talking about some of the artists there, but also the collaborative process that goes on there. I was curious because, Rudy, I'm wondering, there was a quote from you. The article focused somewhat on some drama around Mexico and artists and all of that, right? And they were trying to just sort of stir that pot a little bit, as people do, and I get it. But in that piece, you expressed sympathy for this particular artist. And in that, you said, you know, we've been such heavily bullied people ourselves.

26:33Rodman Primack:And we understand what that moment can feel like. And I'm curious what you're speaking to there.

26:40Rudy Weissenberg:There's an American artist living in Mexico that is doing the Venice Biennial. And the process has been quite controversial. Alma Allen is someone that we work with and we represent in design. Someone that Rahman and I have admired even before we met him. We started collecting his pieces, I think, 20 years ago. And it was controversial. And, you know, nowadays the social media and opinions get augmented really quickly without any measure. And what I was saying is, what I was trying to say is that Rahman did and I did grow up being bullied, right? because of her flair and interests and where we grew up.

27:22Rudy Weissenberg:And it was obvious, I think, from a young age for both of us that we were gay. And it was different times. And we both have felt being bullied. And it's not pleasant. And, you know, this is even, again, social media. We could find, in theory, respite if you went into your bedroom and closed the door. And I think that's what a lot of us did. Some of us had bouts of depression and could just stay in your little room playing decorator for Barbie or whatever. But nowadays, it's much more intense because it doesn't stop. And so all I was trying to say is when someone's down, we don't kick them in the back again.

27:58Rudy Weissenberg:We wait. And I think pausing is very important to kind of let things blow over. And if you believe in someone, you've been working with someone, I think it's important to just understand what the truth is, right? And where it lies and how you support someone and you stick with someone. And it's hard to navigate nowadays all these very intense opinions. Intense and public.

28:25Rodman Primack:And the ease with which people post opinions and comment.

28:29Rudy Weissenberg:I always find it wild. Like if you go, you know, like Architectural Digest Instagram, I tend not to want to read the post, not just me, but I think there's things that people say that are just wild. I sometimes think they do it as a provocation, like as a joke, to be mean. Our spirit is not to be mean. And so what we do is to offer friendship and moments to kind of gather and think, right, this is what's happening. What's real? What's not? What's your intention? What's not? And in this case, I thought it was very important to support someone that we believe in.

29:02Rodman Primack:And we believe in a lot of people. I'm surprised how quickly people today jump to judgment or to criticism and the harshness with which they will bring that criticism is often striking as well.

29:16Rudy Weissenberg:We prefer not to criticize our peers. For example, you know, there's very talented peers where someone says like, oh, that house is not so great. And I'm like, well, we don't know what happened when that peer was doing that house and what happened with the clients and what happened with the budget and what happened with the execution. and did someone change it? And what happened with the builder? I mean, there's so many things that come into play when you're doing projects that until you hear what happened, you know, sometimes we'll hear the other side from our friends and you hear that it was a nightmare story or that's what the client wanted or it didn't work and they're going to change it.

29:48Rudy Weissenberg:So a little kindness goes a long way.

29:50Rodman Primack:I don't mind criticism. Like I think criticism is super healthy. I think that is part of culture. I think that's what moves things forward. But I think what ends up happening on platforms like Instagram is that people have lost civility or don't actually know how to frame criticism in a way that is critical as opposed to just being like mean, but just flat out sort of mean. And I say this jokingly that sometimes when a story, one of our projects will get published, let's say by AD, and then it goes into their Instagram feed and blah, blah, blah. and that's an invitation for a lot of comment. And I don't mind what I find to be like real criticism or real questions or something like that.

30:34Rodman Primack:But what literally burns me into like a fiery mess is when someone will write something as simple as nope. N-O-P-E. Because it's so totally - Just a flat nope. Just a flat nope. Not the whole thing. I'm just rejecting the entire thing. I'm rejecting like nope. and there's something about it that I just want. I don't, but I want to say to that person, like, I don't mind that you don't like my work or you don't like this project, but have you not thought about the fact that hundreds of people dedicated time and effort and my team and blah, blah, blah. And for you to just be so dismissive in a one word thing that you would not realize that that would be, it's not like, I'm a grownup, I can handle it.

31:19Rodman Primack:But I'm like, that's just so rude and dismissive. And people say a lot worse things, but I'm like, guys, don't treat each other this way. Or even with this thing about Alma. Like, if you don't like Alma's work, talk to us about what you don't like about Alma's work.

31:34Rudy Weissenberg:Or it wasn't even about his work. It was about the process of being picked. So let's just discuss that rather than dismissing the whole thing. You know, I've been in many art crits and architecture crits. And I think that's super important to push back and to point out moments that in a project that don't work and my favorite art professor was steven prina and he wouldn't come and say this is good or bad ever he would just keep prodding and prodding and prodding and asking why and why did you do this and you know you could tell that there was things that he thought were unresolved or not interesting or going in the wrong direction he would never say that he would just keep asking and going into it and it just made for an interesting conversation to get you thinking about your own process, how you can improve.

32:18Rudy Weissenberg:And it just made the project that much more thoughtful. And so I think crit is important, but in how it's released into the world, it's also important.

32:29Rodman Primack:Well, I found myself thinking after the last conversation that the three of us had, is it safer for people to choose the things that haven't been created by artists to fill your home with? Are you less likely to be judged harshly because the things that you'll be surrounded by will be far less specific and therefore feel more neutral and safe and like what everybody else's Instagram looks like? Real estate agents would tell you yes, right? Right. Well, exactly. We have a whole resale culture that pushes you in that direction already. But also, I mean, to select these different artists and to have far more interesting, unique, but also risky in that context pieces is a much bigger statement to make.

33:31Rudy Weissenberg:A friend of ours has an apartment in New York or had an apartment in New York, and she's one of the great collectors, without exaggerating, in Latin America and the world. sits on many boards she was trying to sell her apartment and be and the real estate agents kept saying was very specific and that means um a little maximalist and so through ai they painted everything white and they took out all the work and it sold and it was shocking to her and to me when she told me the story but i guess you know nowadays i guess you can paint the whole thing white to sell via AI for real estate, but for living, that texture and those colors and that uniqueness is what's going to make your space you and yours and hopefully make you happy.

34:17Rodman Primack:But I think Dennis is getting at something. I think Dennis is getting at something that's bigger. It's about the kind of anxiety that we feel about judgment. And because, like to what I was saying earlier, because the judgment is so freely offered and oftentimes so ugly in its delivery that I do think we kind of are in this kind of censoring moment where we censor each other and we censor ourselves and we're kind of on pins and needles because of the rapidity and the ferocity at which we get taken down on these platforms. Like people are nervous.

34:54Rudy Weissenberg:And the hyper competitiveness of seeing, you know, when people told you I'm going to Italy, you never saw their pictures most probably. But now you know every step they take, where they stay. And, you know, sometimes it's real, sometimes it's not. I find that it's all super mediated. And so if you don't understand that, you're either jealous or judgy or whatnot. And that didn't used to happen because you didn't see people's worlds like that.

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36:03Rodman Primack:To learn more, visit Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. That's Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. And now, back to the show.

36:20Rodman Primack:So people are going to hear this conversation. They're going to say, wait a minute. So these guys, wait, no, wait. They've been together all these years. They're finishing each other's sentences left and right, right? They're running a gallery. They're running a design firm. They're traveling all the time. How's the business working? How's this whole thing working? Who wants to talk to me about that? What kind of operation are we running here? So I got to get off this call now. Oh, Robin suddenly has to go now. Oh. Let's be honest. It's hard. It's hard. Like, this is, it's a hard thing to keep all these balls in the air and do all these things and, you know, be committed to something that isn't, like, I don't want to go out and say, like, oh, my God, we're retiring on Ago projects.

37:06Rodman Primack:Like, our collectible design gallery has bought us an island in the Caribbean. It's not. Like, that is out of passion and love and desire. And finding clients is difficult, you know?

37:19Rudy Weissenberg:Placing new furniture is very difficult. And, you know, Raman and I always go against the grain in many ways. Like, you know, we love the ugly pretty. Sometimes people say like, oh, that's bad taste. And I'm like, oh, my God, that's perfection. So we also have a point of view that is not the most streamlined. So it's tough. You know, we're in a region that has few design galleries. It's a new conversation that we're starting or that we are adhering ourselves to. We get invited by the big fairs and all these things. But it's really expensive. Moving furniture to design fairs and art fairs, it's very complicated and expensive.

37:57Rudy Weissenberg:And, you know, we really support our designers making things. So we invest in these pieces.

38:02Rodman Primack:Yeah, it sounded like you were putting a bunch of money up to help people make things. It sounded like you, right?

38:07Rudy Weissenberg:Well, you know, like I always say, I never thought we were starting a non-for-profit. I think we should have done it at 503C.

38:15Rodman Primack:That's what I'm wondering.

38:16Rudy Weissenberg:We've been told that galleries take five years to get going. We're hitting that mark. Let's hope if it starts working financially. You know, in interiors, they work, but we always are looking for more work. We always need more work. You know how it is. You hear it all the time.

38:29Rodman Primack:And I would say to Dennis's earlier point, Rudy, that I think our work is really distinctive in many ways. And so it's not for everybody. And so we don't get everybody's calls. Like there's like, it's a very, it's not all the same, but it's kind of a particular spirit. And so I don't think it's definitely not neutral. It's definitely not easy. And so Rodman, to that point, who is coming to you and how are they coming to you? Almost everything that comes to us, and Rudy, correct me if you feel differently, comes from word of mouth and normally through a relationship with a client that we've worked with before.

39:08Rodman Primack:And that leads to a new project. I don't think we've gotten a single thing from as much as I love being published. And thank you. Thank you, Amy and Elisa. Like all these people who love being published. But I don't think anyone's ever picked up the magazine and called us.

39:24Rudy Weissenberg:Yeah, because it's harder nowadays, right? Like it's changed. And our book has helped in giving us credibility. We did our first book a year ago. We launched it with Monaco.

39:33Rodman Primack:And do you feel like that was really worth it, Rudy, to that point, giving you credibility?

39:36Rudy Weissenberg:I do because I think it kind of sums up. It really kind of shows our work all together. You can see what we do. You know, as I said, I went to business school and I help many people put together business plans for their business. And stupidly, for hours, it's harder for me.

39:54Rodman Primack:So did you put a business plan together for this whole operation?

39:59Rudy Weissenberg:It's much easier to do it on the cost side, which is something that I look at where I said, you know, we're spending too much here or there. Storage is going to be the death of us. But then it's very hard to project. If I could project three new projects come in, and this is what the revenue that's going to come in, it's going to be so much easier, and I would love to get there. But it's getting there in the business. If we get a project, we know the scale, more or less how much we should or can make. I'm good at that, at the budgets. But it's always getting those projects and executing them flawlessly.

40:32Rudy Weissenberg:That becomes challenging. And so the hustle is real. You know, finding clients, getting the jobs, because we now understand the business. And also, there's all kinds of clients, and we don't turn away a client that said, I cannot do collectible design. That's fine. That means we're going to make less, right? So that means we need another project to complement it because we have overheads. And so this is something I look at all the time, and how we build teams, and what does that mean. And if you bring in someone, we want to groom people to stay with us for a long time. So if you bring in someone, it's a serious decision because you're making a financial commitment.

41:11Rudy Weissenberg:And so you start adding costs and how is that going to be paid for? And it's, you know, it's not easy.

41:18Rodman Primack:But Rudy, but I think you have to also be honest that I think part of growing a practice and growing our practice is also being able to recognize when the client is not the right client for us. And you can feel like, oh, you know, yeah, we got to get more business in the door and we got to do this and da-da-da. But really getting to the maturity personally and as a business of being able to say like, and it's not necessarily personal, but just being able to say like, this is not the right client for our firm and the way that we do things. And what we value is not going to be valued by this client.

41:54Rodman Primack:We're going to be in a battle from day one. And what do they do to tip you off to that, Rodman, to that point? How does that reveal itself? I don't think it's anything specific or like there's a code word of like, oh, you know, red flag. There's certain, definitely there are, we all probably have red flags for each other. But it's something, there's something that you realize like, oh, we're not on the same path. And we're not going to be able to, we're not going to be able to do what they want us to do. Or they think what we do is what they want. And actually through conversation, you realize we are totally not what they want.

42:29Rodman Primack:and we're not going to do it in the way, like we can't do that. Yeah.

42:33Rudy Weissenberg:And if we talk about business, I think it's very important that we think about creating assets and value, right? So if you're creating, there's companies you can create and they can trade. So you build a company, you build it up, there's embedded revenue, let's say furniture. All of a sudden you're selling$100 million a year. Your profit is 20%. Your EBITDA is 10 million. It sells times 2.3. All of a sudden you have a valuation of 50 million. You sell the business. That's great. That's a traditional business.

42:58Rodman Primack:Oh, my God. Argo's doing amazing, Rudy. That's incredible. Congratulations on getting the business to that scale.

43:04Rudy Weissenberg:But if you think about a decorating business, if you think an interior's practice, you're not creating a value that's an upside. You know, it's not like your stock is going to – it's not like you hold stock and it's going to go up. It's not like you deliver a house and someone looks at you and says, here's your million-dollar bonus you were not expecting. You know, you have a service. It's a service industry. And it's a company that has revenue through service. And I think justifying service in modern world is hard. Like some people don't believe they need to pay for service what you think you deserve.

43:32Rudy Weissenberg:And that is the dance you need to dance. And that's a very difficult conversation of saying, this is what you need to pay me. And if you like decorating, you're usually a people pleaser. And it's hard to charge sometimes if the person pushed back. Right? And that happens all the time. But that conversation, not just for us, but what our industry is, it's a service. This is how much we should get paid to pay our expenses and have a decent living. And you, the client, should recognize that and you should pay it.

44:03Rodman Primack:It does. And I'm so glad that you said what you did, Rudy, there because you're so right about the people pleaser part. And the people pleaser part is exactly the part that's lowering the fees and giving in in the negotiations. and how does one simultaneously build the strength and the confidence, but also continue to be able to call upon the people-pleasing nature that's so necessary and crucial to the whole process.

44:33Rudy Weissenberg:And in the negotiation, you have very different powers. One person has the money that's going to pay for it, the other one's offering a service. So you're in a different position, but you need to understand that you state your case of, this is what I do for a living. This is what I need to get paid. And I hope that we can reach an agreement where you understand why you're paying what you're paying to get what you want.

44:54Rodman Primack:That is one of those red flags. If we're really talking about red flags, I think the negotiation process sometimes really makes it clear if a client respects the work that actually goes into something. And I think that people negotiate to get the best deal, et cetera, et cetera. But there are moments where you can see a real glimmer of character and just understand, oh, this is a person that's not just trying to get the best deal. They don't respect what other people do. They don't respect what people do outside of making money or outside of doing this thing. And there are moments that you can see that.

45:30Rudy Weissenberg:And because I have the business brain, I have my spreadsheets. And at some point I look at Robin and I'm like, we're not going to make money. We're actually going to work for free. And I don't think that's fair either.

45:42Rodman Primack:No, and that's the wrong person. And that's the wrong client. Because what we're talking about doing, what we love to do and what we're talking about doing, we've been talking the last hour about, is like valuing and respecting the making. So the right client for us is someone that actually values what other people do, that values chefs, that values clothes, that values other people's contributions.

46:06Rudy Weissenberg:But also values us, right, Robin? Because we might present, because the way we present that we don't need much. But this is what we do for a living. And this is where we eat from. Does that make sense? So that's a great point too, Rudy,

46:18Rodman Primack:because do you think the two of you come across as so terribly successful that the clients look at you and go, oh, these guys don't really need to get paid that well because they're doing just fine, right? They got a gallery in Mexico and they've got this jet set life. Look at how well they're doing. They don't really need mine. Jet set in 23F.

46:36Rudy Weissenberg:Yeah, I don't think there's anything. I mean, if you call big air buses jets and jet set, that might be true. But I think people make assumptions all the time. You know, we all think that how people present themselves. We all compare and think, jump into conclusions. But the truth is that being small business owners, it's always a struggle. And so it's about being very open about the fragility of what we do. But on the other hand, how exciting it is to what we do. And it is a great business. I mean, you know, we've been talking to even people that have been on your podcast that are consultants.

47:15Rudy Weissenberg:And if you know how to do it right, you can have a wonderful life. You can make a living. But it's that moment where you understand who you need to work with, how much you need to charge, and when you say yes and when you say no. Because below a certain threshold, your practice is not – you're not going to make money for your practice. you're going to be struggling, and eventually you're not going to be able to continue doing what you're doing because there's just not enough revenue. And sadly, until there's a better system, the neo-capitalist system that we know today, we offer service and we get paid for it, right?

47:50And there needs to be a fair compensation.

47:54Rodman Primack:A great designer said to me recently that designers are artists asking their clients to buy their art supplies for them so that they can create. It's like, please let me show you the incredible work that I can do. Invest in me. Invest the time. And let me show you how my work can transform your life. But you need to get them to let you buy the things that you know can do all of it.

48:24Rudy Weissenberg:I mean, I'll tell you, like, Rodman's brain, you know, I didn't know the side of it. Rodman lives in this very beautiful world full of sparkle contemporary design and unicorns. And his design solutions are so incredible. And I admire it. And sometimes I'm stuck and he'll come up with a solution. I'm like, that's just so poetic and beautiful. But money to Rodman is an abstract. And I do see Rodman as an artist. And when you see the way he draws things and designs things, he's an artist. And I think that it's hard for people to see that, right? And that's, I think, our yin and yang, where I'm like, Robin just spent three days designing a tile concept for a house.

49:04Rudy Weissenberg:Clients don't know that. The ramen spent the whole weekend doing little tile drawings.

49:08Rodman Primack:And you can't bill for that properly. No, we don't bill at all. We don't bill that at all. Right. That's just because I'm a crazy person. We're a crazy, creative person. But a crazy, talented, creative person, exactly, that needs to be allowed to flourish and spend all that time doing that. Right, right. And thank goodness, Rudy, he has you and the other side to help try and monetize that.

49:30Rudy Weissenberg:Well, you know, we just started working together not too long ago. So we're starting to understand our formula and also how we put ourselves out in the world. And for people to understand that what we do is also like a pleasure and a treat. Like, I think we both do this because we like it. And as I said, we don't stop because we don't feel like we need to because we enjoy it so much. you know every weekend i go to galleries rather than i go to galleries and we go to museums and we i'm cruising the auction sites but because i'm i like it it's a pleasure for us and it's you know it's the creative process is just it makes me feel so honored that i can be part of it when you get to work with people you admire when you get sit with an artist and talk about a project and that magic starts happening and the client understands, when that starts gelling, it's really probably some of the most beautiful things that can happen in life because nothing, the darkness goes away and you're just thinking about possibilities.

50:31Rodman Primack:So to that point for the two of you as we wrap up, to the designers and the listeners to whom this world feels out of their comfort zone perhaps or it seems out of reach for them, both in the collectible design world, but also just the gallery world and the art world. But they want to learn more. They want to engage more here in this space. What's the advice? What's the counsel you give, Rudman? I want to always remind everybody that there's this almost performative thing about galleries of being kind of, you know, like snotty or, you know, like exclusive and like these people want to sell things.

51:16Rodman Primack:It's part of the sales technique to create that barrier. But the reality is... They think that's part of the business process. That's part of the business thing is to make you feel so lucky and making you feel insecure and like you've got to spend more to get their respect. But I think the reality is, is like actually when you are comfortable enough to say, I don't know what that is. Can you tell me about it? People want to tell you. They do want to tell you. They want to like, I think when, I think that the dance that goes on is like when you try to say like, oh, I've seen that before, blah, blah, blah.

51:49Rodman Primack:And then the person talking to you is like, you've never seen this before. Like all this kind of performative stuff is just so stupid. And the real way to get there is just to say, oh, could you tell me about that? Tell me about that painting. Who is this artist? Who is, what is that work? I think it's so disarming the moment that someone actually just says, could you tell me about this? and also you realizing, like, this person just wants to sell you something. Whether you can buy it or not doesn't matter. But they're just a salesperson. Nine times out of ten, they want to sell you.

52:21Rudy Weissenberg:I would say that there's art worlds and design worlds. And what you have to remember is that you can belong into some of those worlds, right? Like, there's corners of the art world that I don't connect with or people that I don't connect with. And that's okay. But then you meet the other person You know, you go to the other gallery or you meet the other designer and you start building community. So it takes time, but it also takes effort. So I think if you show up in a gallery, they don't treat you nicely and you leave and you think the art world is terrible. That's just the wrong way to look at it.

52:54Rudy Weissenberg:There's wonderful people in this world of art and design. There's incredible galleries. There's incredible makers. There's incredible moments. and it just takes a minute to keep at it and meeting, being in the right place, going to the right places. But you have to keep at it. Like Robin and I have been gallery and museum squirrels since we were teenagers. And that's what happens.

53:18Rodman Primack:Okay. Okay. Well, great advice. Gentlemen, such a pleasure to get to spend time with both of you. And I'm so grateful to you from different locations and different time zones, perhaps, making the time to talk with me.

53:31Rudy Weissenberg:Thank you. We're fans, and we're super grateful to be invited. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much.

53:38Rodman Primack:Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider Community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.