Salvesen Graham is taking English style to new places

28:29And I think that's what's been so great. And it means that we can help solve those problems together. And then actually the times when we're both thinking everything's awful, then it's quite funny and you just laugh and go and have a glass of wine. Well, and I wonder, I mean, to that point, because of course, back 2013, I mean, it's 12 years, lots of ups and downs, right? And challenges along the way. And how lucky that you were friends, good friends to help get. And so often in couples, they talk about, well, obviously you recognize neither is always going to be at 100%. And so you hope that when one person is at 20%, the other person can quickly step up.

29:14We make 100. I'd like to say we make more than 100 together. So we're a combined 150 on a normal day. I like it. On a good day. I like it. I like it. But yeah, and actually so often at industry events or if we're speaking on panels or things like that, people come up to us afterwards and they say, I'm thinking about, you know, I do it on my own. And actually it's really lonely. I'm thinking about setting up with someone, you know, what would your advice be? How does that work? And I think it is really brilliant. but I think you have to be really clear at the outset of what your goals are, what your expectations are, so that both people are aligned, which is what we took time to do.

29:49Because if you find out sort of later that someone's got a different vision, I think that's when the cracks appear and things start falling apart. But definitely it can be a lonely experience when you're a single, you know, one-man band. And that's, I think, the one comment we hear so often from people is, it's really lonely and creatively I don't have anyone to bounce ideas off so we often recommend if people aren't looking to form a partnership to form a little gathering in their area whether it's whatsapp whether they're meeting for a coffee once a month or something like that because it is so comforting to talk to other people in the same industry and hear that other people are having problems with suppliers or issues with staff or tricky clients or whatever it might be to have that network of support, I think is really important.

30:38And it is an industry where people are very supportive. We find that compared to some other creative industries, it's actually very collaborative, very supportive. People are generous with their information. And it's, you know, you have to ask, but people will sort of support and help. And that's really lovely. No, and I'm glad to hear that. And a lot of designers do talk to me about, again, I don't want to call them support groups, but friend groups and where they can. And it's interesting because partnerships are very challenging and some very, very famous partnerships haven't lasted, didn't work out for various reasons.

31:17And as you were alluding to, really have to be on the same page. And it turns out you've got to stay on the same page. Yes, which is the harder part. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, and again, similar to marriage in a remarkable way in that, you know, have to grow and want the same things for your future. And as we were talking about earlier, the two of you had some visions. I love that you had a vision. Oh, well, of course we want a product line. And of course we want to do a book in the future. And I wonder, to the point about the book, what did you think the book represented? Or when you think about wanting to have that in the future, what's the significance of that?

31:58Well, I think it's interesting. First, So I was going to say that the book, doing the book, has also been a bit like therapy and marriage. And I think we weren't necessarily expecting that to come out of it. Tell me about that. So when we were approached to do the book initially, I think it was interesting to sort of, we wanted to feel that we were giving a fresh perspective in some way. And we really wanted to explore this idea of moving away from this historical view of English interiors as only being grand estates and Georgian piles. But we really wanted to explore that actually this style can be incorporated into any number of properties with the common thread being layering and pattern and antiques.

32:42So I think when we were thinking about how we were going to approach the book, that became very clear. And then this new English style, that is what we're trying to say. We're not trying to say that it's a completely new version of English interiors. It's an evolution. Completely redefined English style. Well, if you say so, Dennis. It turns out you can reinvent the wheel. Yes, exactly. But, you know, actually, if you think, you know, our thought when asked about what is English style, it is an evolution of interior styles and it's a collection of those things. So for us, this is part of that evolution and it's the next stage of it.

33:22So often, especially when we're doing really regarded homes, certainly in England, because we do obviously have quite strict planning regulations, what our clients are often doing is putting their generational stamp on something. And I think we really explored that when we were thinking about what we were trying to say here and that it's OK to put that stamp on it while respecting what else has happened and what else has come before. I remember reading a brilliant quote and I always kind of save them on the notes of my computer. I'm just looking at one now that was Nancy Lancaster saying tradition is not a matter of sticking to the past but living with it.

33:58And I think that exemplifies it so well that it doesn't mean you have to live in a museum or you have to be absolutely historically accurate, but you want to live with those things, make them liveable for the 21st century. You know, so often the houses we work on have got kitchens miles away from dining rooms and are just set up in an archaic way for how people live nowadays. So it's about keeping the spirit of a home, but making it relevant for today. Do you find that the book itself, the existence of the book, speaks to a milestone in your careers and how far you've come? And does it put some things in perspective for you?

34:45Yes, definitely. I think that being approached to do it in the first place was sort of surprising. It wasn't surprising. It did feel the right time, but equally it became a moment to sit down and really think, okay, do we actually have the body of work to do this? you know can we would would we feel very it feels very permanent so we want to make sure that we feel very proud of all the projects in there and actually we questioned that it went back and forth of quite a bit but actually when we sat down and got all the the photos out there we felt really proud and excited that we had this you know I mean the the publisher has it's it's there's a reprint happening and yes you know we've it's a hot title it's been listed as a title so we were We just got that news last week, so we were really thrilled.

35:31But as Nicole says, it was funny because when the idea first came up, I think we both felt like this, but I certainly felt suddenly very British and very female in that I was questioning, are we good enough? Is anyone going to want to look at these things? Should we shout about it? You know, this doesn't feel right. And the whole process was really cathartic and, as Nicole said, quite emotional looking back at what we'd achieved over the years. And I think one of the surprising things about the book and taking this time to reflect was that when your business is busy and going well, you just don't stop.

36:10You don't stop to pat yourselves or your team on the back. You're always on to the next project or on to the next magazine feature. You don't stop to think, do we need to update our business plan because you're being so reactive because you're so busy which is great obviously but the thing that was just brilliant about the book was it afforded us time to stop and take a step back and think and I think that was actually almost the greatest gift of the book aside from having this this product in our hands and I don't think we would have done that had we not been preparing the book so now it's you know it's a moment to think well well what's next So what does the updated business plan?

36:52Well, exactly. What's in there? Yes. I mean, to that point of not having, you know, endless hours in the day to achieve everything. And we haven't even, you know, talked about yet about our product line, which when we first started the product line, we thought, oh, this is just, you know, being inspired by Nina and especially who we sought advice about doing fabric collection. early on in our careers, the answer to which was not necessarily hugely positive. But we did it anyway. But we did it anyway. What exactly did Nina say? Because I know that she wants to be encouraging but also knows how challenging it is.

37:40I mean, if anything she taught us, I mean, A, she taught me to work hard and to be willing to get stuck in and do anything that was required to get a project over the line and done, but also to support others. And I think that is something she does do so beautifully. And, you know, I saw it when I was working for her and, you know, she sent the most lovely email of congratulations about the book recently, which was, you know, quite an emotional moment. So I think that actually when she did tell us that perhaps doing a fabric line was, you know, quite a huge undertaking, we perhaps should have listened.

38:19because we can now confirm what it is when we first started you know and you have an you know an odd design here and there it doesn't feel such a big part of the business but what it has become is another business and actually you realize that you know essentially you are running to you know not separate because they are very much still together and under our brand that's a great plan but it is a whole another business and so that's 150 % that Mary and I have thank goodness you've got 100 % Thanks goodness for that. But you realise product and service are two entirely different things. The way you make money from them is entirely different.

38:58The way you manage those businesses is entirely different. And there's only so much kind of headspace and hours in the day. So that's something that has been challenging. But we both relish a challenge. So it's been exciting. Exactly. And we thought long and hard about it. And bearing in mind there are already two of us, we have actually bought in a consultant to help us really think about how we're going to approach the next three to five years and to really solidify that business plan for the coming years because we have to be there for our clients and we have to stay doing that and the interiors is our absolute passion but this other side of our business the product has become also so gratifying and exciting that we want to make sure that we're giving that what it deserves as well.

39:50Yeah. And I think from a business perspective as well, the service side of the industry in some degree is quite out of your hands in terms of a client might get divorced or decide to sell a house or with the economic situation, you know, it can be so tumultuous. And obviously selling product is also at the mercy of the economy. But to have a product line where you can scale it, where you can forecast much more accurately, we're really enjoying that as a sort of business model that you've got this one side of the business that is, you're working a lot harder for less profit on the service side.

40:28It's very gratifying. But on the product side, You can forecast sales, you can set ambitious targets. It's much more definable. And I think it's really nice having that balance of the two. And we just wanted to have that kind of stability across the business that we weren't relying on only one income stream and one source of revenue. So many people fall in love with the idea of doing a fabric line, right? And it's one of my favorite conversations with people because I love hearing what it means to them, what the white space that they saw out there in fabric land that they desperately needed to fill.

41:09But also, I mean, and again, so many people have described, Dennis, if nothing else, I needed a creative escape from the service side of taking care of all these clients and delivering all these projects. And I respect and admire that. Absolutely. I mean, when we first started the collection, and I think really now it is very much focused on fabric and wallpaper. That is the future of what we're doing. When we originally started the collection, we saw it more as a way. It was in COVID. It was also that time that this felt more appropriate for it, more as a way for an end user to access a little snippet of joy, you know, and a bit of Salvis and Graham in their own homes.

41:54And as it's now developed and evolved, it has grown up a bit. And while we still absolutely love those earlier fabrics, the collection has changed. And, you know, it's a bit more grounded on what we want and what we use. So I think, yes, you know, we are never arrogant enough ever in the way we approach everything to think that we are reinventing the wheel. but we did want to make sure that we were at least filling a void that we didn't have or something that we just felt was really beautiful and wanted to use and felt excited that we could do that I think as Nicole said when we when we started we were thinking what do we think the customer wants from us and tailoring our designs to them now we're very much doing what do we want to create with the assumption that those who like our style will therefore like what we like and actually that's feeling a lot more comfortable and a lot more authentic and I hope the recipe for success.

42:51Yes and that going back to an earlier part of the conversation is that fine line that you walk with the house style yeah because you want people to have enough of a recognition of what your style is to desire it particularly if you're developing a collection that oh here you go you can have some of Thomas and Graham and here's wallbapers and fabrics and if this look resonates with you here you are here and uh and and so I do think that is the value of and I hate using that term brand but brand building because I do think that's in a lot of ways whether we like it or not that's what we're all doing we're all building brands whether it's a personal brand or a business brand or both.

43:38And certainly today we're all expected to appear on social media regularly. And you've built a sizable following through, I'm certain, no small effort. And I don't know. And so often in the States, we're asking designers who tell us, oh, I'm getting so much of my business from Instagram, or I'm getting so many of the leads. is that certainly sounds like it's the case for you. It's a very important tool for us. Absolutely. We find, I'd say it's very rare that you get a client directly from Instagram that then converts into, you know, a sizable job. But what you do get is people who are already interested in you validating their decision via what they see on Instagram.

44:25And it's the same with being in top 100 lists on magazines. There are a few clients actually, and I would say more so international clients who literally go down those lists, pick three companies, interview them and choose one. But more often, it's people that have maybe been recommended to you by someone else. And then they use Instagram and the interiors magazines as a way to confirm their suspicions, you know, and to confirm that they want to go ahead with you. So they're so useful in that respect. And also, as we were saying earlier, magazines take a long time to publish projects. So you need to make that call.

45:00Do you want to hold back a project and give it to a magazine to publish? Or do you actually want to be in control of it and send it out to the world via social media where you're going to get much more immediate response? So I think there's a balance. Both are both are valuable to us and you need to be doing a bit of both. I think to reassure any publishers out there, the thrill you get from having your work in print press is still, you know, the absolute best. So I think that's what we all kind of covet and love. But in between those published pieces, you need to be doing all the other things as well.

45:38And in the States, we are wildly envious of your publications. Yeah, we're very lucky. British House and Gardens and World of Interiors and Homes and Gardens and Living, etc. I mean, all of the much glossier paper than we have in the States and the much thicker shelter magazines than we have in the States. No, it's a very challenging time in media. My wife worked for Architectural Digest during the heyday of Architectural Digest when that was a three or often 400-page magazine, and I would be quite concerned if she would lose her temper and hurl one in my direction. But I think you, and to the point, even going back to the fact that we run two businesses, one's a service, or two sides of our business, one's a service side and one's a product side.

46:29You also have to look at that in a different way and how you're promoting it. So I think that's also been a part of the journey of how we work.

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47:27Tell me more about that, Nicole, because tell me how you think about that. And I was curious how big a presence you yourselves want to have in that side of it, the product side of it. It's an ongoing discussion, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah, and I think as part of this reassessing the size of the business, we can't have them both continue to grow in the way they are and then be allocating the same amount of time because there are only so many hours in the day. But I think also the other thing we've got a lot better at in terms of a partnership, we very much finish each other's sentences. There's very little that even if we don't completely agree on that, we haven't reached an understanding on.

48:11So I think that, you know, we've got a lot better as well at just getting on with something separately and making things work. And I think that's immediately given us more hours in the day. So I think those sorts of elements. But in terms of the other side of it is that it also doesn't just need to be us. We have now some wonderful people in the team who work very hard to ensure that the social media presence is still there and that each new product launch is having its moment in the sun and being seen. And I think that's really important. So, you know, we rely on them to come to us, to report to us.

48:51And the creative element of that absolutely will always come from Mary and I. we you know we think that is incredibly important and our client relationships always are you know with mary and i because that's that's uh very important that they still get that side from us so we've we've sort of ring fenced certain non-negotiables and then we've brought brilliant people on um to work with us to help us achieve what else needs to be done so that's that's become a new frontier, I think, for Salves and Graham in recent years. And also, you know, when you've got an eponymous firm, we obviously have some form of lifespan, who knows how long or short that is.

49:34And you've talked about this, I know, with other guests about legacy and things like that, you do have to think, you can't have a business that is entirely reliant on the two of us, because in one shape or form at some point the two of us won't be here so we're starting to think now I think about what does that look like does the product line need us as the face of it we know some textile designers who are also interior designers who are sort of not um physically attached to their product line at all or their persona as it were isn't isn't part of that um and I think that's quite an interesting discussion and i i definitely think we haven't landed on the final answer of how tied to us as people it is or not and it's it's affected some of the decisions we've made with how we run the the fabric collections how we sell it for example we've been working with multi-line showrooms um in the u.s um for example so in the uk it all goes through southst graham and we have um one roving um external um sales rep that that helps us which is quite a recent acquisition.

50:43And then we, in the US, as I said, we work with multi-line showrooms and we specifically chosen that route because it suits how our business is structured because we are based in the UK. And we currently work with James in Dallas and Houston and New York. We're with Temple. And we've recently also started working with Greco, who are in Madrid, actually. So that's the sort of European side of it. But, you know, definitely as part of this growth, we are looking to continue to work with more showrooms across the US because, and rather than, you know, we have given it a lot of thought, we could send people out and do it more direct to the designers.

51:27But actually, we feel like that support that you get from working with those showrooms is invaluable and we are delighted with a the sales and also with the relationships that we're building with the teams there so we were in New York recently with Temple and that was fabulous and actually it was so exciting when we were there a package from us arrived literally into the studio when we were there so we suddenly were like stop what you're doing we've got to film this this is for Instagram so you know film some samples being opened and it was just really great to see the enthusiasm from the team there and I think also a trap that people can fall into particularly UK textile houses is that America is so much bigger than the UK the the different regions have such different personalities a style that's going to work in LA is not necessarily going to work in Charleston so yes we can understand that on a on a fairly basic level but actually that's where we're finding the benefit of these showrooms is they really know their audience in the way that we know the UK audience.

52:33So because then, you know, we listened to your show enough, Dennis, or the Thursday show as well to know that multi-line showrooms is also a hot topic. Love the multi-line showroom conversation. And how fascinating to learn what a difference there is between Dallas and Houston. Yeah, yeah. Right? Oh, absolutely. It's the same state. And yet it's often a very different client. To us Brits, that's almost it's incomprehensible because it's so dissimilar over here. So yeah, we see a great, for us, we see a great value in that and the knowledge that they have. And yeah, we've got a pretty hefty expansion plan in motion for next year.

53:10So to look out for that. Rolling out into many other markets in the US. Yes. Well, we're already seeing really encouraging sales coming direct to us from those areas, but it just seems to make more sense rather than that to continue just coming to us to work with these showrooms who can facilitate it in a better way. So, you know, we want to monopolize on those sales we're already receiving and then work directly more with those areas. Yeah, it's a big focus for us for the next two years, I would say. Well, a great multi-line partner, and you've got some great partners already. I'm crazy about Temple and the James people are some of the best.

53:45And I have huge admiration and great multi-line partners. and as you say, who really understand the markets, who know the lines and can just nurture and grow your business in a way that you couldn't possibly be over here. No, exactly. Right? Exactly. You have to be realistic about these things. And I think that's another thing of growing up and growing in a business. You've got to start letting go of certain things and recognizing when there's someone with more expertise, you know. And has that been hard? Has it been hard to let go of that? Because it is often. We're naturally what you might call control freaks.

54:29You said it. If you were being rude. I think we like being, we started this business because we like running a business and we like being involved in all the different elements of it. So I think, and reflecting on our experience and our learning over the years, we've been so lucky to learn from both those. We worked in our early days, these really inspiring female founders. And then also some of those people we've collaborated with. We've done a trimmings collection with Sanderson. And I know Lisa was, I think, on this podcast at some point. And, you know, she has, working with the team there, They were so generous with their experience and their knowledge and their advice.

55:19And their vast archive and all of their history. So in that sense, it was just fabulous to work with them because of that archive and the history. But also just that, you know, they actually really wanted to impart that, you know, that knowledge on us for our own collection. So that was, you know, we want to feed off anything that anyone will give us. There's constant learning. Yeah. Which we love. Right. Right. And we've touched on the people that each of you worked for in the past, but let's spend a little bit of time with that because so often there's this notion that one can come out of design school and immediately start their own firm and surely you've learned all you need to and you can just jump right in.

56:02But the two of you went a very different route and both worked for, as you say, these powerful female founders. Mary, you worked for Cindy Levison, right? And Nicole, as we've suggested, worked for Nina Campbell. But tell me, Mary, I mean, tell me a little bit about Cindy Levison and what you learned there. And I know, you know, sort of great big projects. Yeah, amazing projects. that, you know, I think when you start out and you're young and you think, oh, this is what interior design is, you don't realize that not everyone is working on castles. You just think it's normal. And then you have a rude awakening when you start doing, you know, terraced houses in London that you've got a way to go.

56:49But I think one of the things I learned from her, she was a great mentor. And actually her mother, who was still alive when I worked with Cindy, was also an antique dealer and a decorator and still working, you know, in her 80s. Until the day she died, really, she was still working. So almost I was having two generations worth of mentorship and advice. I learned really everything I think I know about antiques from Cindy and developed a real passion for them thanks to her. When I started with her, I was the only person working with her. So really, she just shared with me everything that she knew.

57:25And it's an absolutely invaluable way to learn. And I actually went to KLC. I did design school as well. So I've done both and they each have their merits. But I think in this industry, you really can't learn without working on the job and seeing a project through from start to finish, which may well take three years. So if someone says, oh, I've done, you know, a couple of years in the business and set up on my own, you think, well, how many projects can you have actually seen from concept to completion if you've only done a couple of years? So I think, you know, investing that time working for someone else is the smart move in my book.

58:03And we also joke with people that if you're going to make a mistake, make it on someone else's, you know, dime rather than your own. Because, you know, it is a constant learning process. as things go wrong, I think that idea that you want to get some of those kind of mistakes or learning curves under your belt early on, you know, before you're the only person responsible for that. I think that's a really wise, wise move. But yeah, I think learning from someone experienced, and we were lucky that both of our previous employees were very traditionally schooled. So they were able to share with us some of those techniques, which rather fell out of fashion when we were starting out in the career in our careers and it was very much the beige era of the sort of 2000s um but we were lucky that we were working with people who had resisted beige and were still you know working with damask and bullions and wonderful trimmings and lacquer paint finishes and antiques and all these kind of things which really no one else was talking about you know in in terms of the magazines and things like that everyone was about paired back and beige and neutral.

59:13So we were lucky to be getting the other side of the story, as it were. Well, and Nicole, we mentioned about you working for Nina Campbell, who at one point was John Fowler's assistant in her early days. So I mean, right? She proves the point of learning from your employer. Yeah, absolutely. I think those days, you know, she'd often reference that, you know, those days of sort of walking around with a, you know, as a bag carrier for him. You know, certainly, you know, left to set her in good stead. And I think it's also about working for people who have really built up this incredibly, incredible body of work and variety of work.

59:54And Nina is known and certainly it's one of the things I respect her for, the reinvention and being able to, you know, reinvent herself while maintaining that ethos of who she is and the way that she's decorating um as i think so many of those greats did you know john feller and and um and civil you know and so many others you know that they have been able to reinvent themselves and create these interiors that are able to endure um while still having space to to move to an extent do change you know we all we all bandy about this world word timeless so much and it is one of the things we try to create is timeless interiors.

1:00:37But regardless of that, you know, there are sort of the more subtle shifts which happen over generations or periods of time. And when you do look back on someone with a long body of work, I think it is quite clear to see that even when you are creating timeless interiors, they still change and have a slightly different flavour to them over different decades. And I think, yeah, that's something that we are definitely trying to emulate as well, this idea that you have a sort of core set of values and stylistic beliefs, as it were, but you can still adapt and be flexible, whether that's to the period of time or to the type of house you're working in or the continent you're working on.

1:01:20You know, things within that sort of English interiors remit can still be flexible and can change. Well, and I wonder, and as we wrap up, starting your own business and really taking it all on yourselves is still very different. You think you've seen it from this perspective. You think you've absorbed a lot of knowledge, and surely you have. I wonder what ended up surprising you both about what taking on really running your own firm meant. What ended up being more challenging or you ended up spending, oh, I thought I was only going to need this much time to do this, but really I need this time.

1:02:03I mean, I wonder what was the biggest learning or surprise and all. I mean, I think you probably hit on it with the word time. you think about work all the time you know it is relentless and I think if you don't think about it all the time probably you shouldn't have your own business but equally I think having been thinking about it all the time for 12 years we'd quite like to think about it a little bit less so so that's why we're trying to to now get advice be more strategic and I think to make time for creativity. I think one of the things, again, I wouldn't say it surprised me, but I find a challenge increasingly is the demand for instant responses to things, instant communication.

1:02:48You know, we live in a world where people value immediacy of everything, whether it's binging on a TV series rather than watching it every Saturday night for, you know, two months, or it's your food arriving immediately, or it's an email being responded to immediately. Everyone wants an immediate response and that's quite hard to square away with the principle of good design which really requires considered thought and consequently time spent on it and I think finding that balance for a client between fighting to keep your creative time but also servicing the client and enabling their project to to keep on track and the and the program to run smoothly is a very sort of fine balancing act.

1:03:30But I think it's important to fight for your time to be creative because that's one of the things that a client is paying you for. And you're only going to be a better designer for them if you're given it. Yeah. But it is hard when you've got WhatsApps pinging at you all day long from clients and builders and everybody. Well, exactly. The form of communication seems to require the immediate response. I mean, we joked at the beginning of the conversation about fax machines. Well, now I'm thinking quite fondly of them. Having said, I was terrified by the dial tone. Let's bring them back. Wait a sec.

1:04:06Now I long for the dulcet tones of the fax machine. It's funny, actually, we, you know, something that was so part of our creative process in the early days of our careers was sitting around a table with books and looking through them and gaining inspiration from other projects or even books that weren't necessarily interiors books, just other things to create that first step on a project. And we've really brought it back to that in the office now and really trying to make the team sit down and we have a launch-off meeting for every project and let's just sort of get the juices flowing and think about...

1:04:49Because we also want... We go back to this point of there being an aesthetic or a thread running through the project. But actually, we have to be thinking, you know, right, who is this client? Who is this project? What is appropriate? What is the house? You know, what is it saying to us? And let's start pulling together some ideas. And then, you know, and then we can then come back with those ideas to where it will feel most comfortable. But I think you've got to look outside that box. And I think that disappeared for such a long time. It's quite alien to some of our younger... You've got to step away from the computer, you know.

1:05:22And as much as something like Pinterest is a really useful tool in many ways for work and Instagram, there's an algorithm. So they're feeding you. It's not creative because you're just being fed the same stuff. And it will only ever take you. Exactly. It will only ever take you to a place that you sort of want to go to anyway. So to get out from behind your desk, go to a design center, to Pimlico Road, to wherever, look at books, do those things. you're then confronted with things that you weren't already expecting to see and I think that's that's so important but again it goes back to this idea of immediacy and demand and speed it can be very hard to step away from your computer you know because that's where the work is happening and people are asking for things so you really have to consciously carve out that time to either look at a book or or take yourself out to you know showrooms and shops and galleries and museums and things like that and kind of reconnect with inspiration that isn't being fed to you.

1:06:21Well, I'm thrilled to get to speak with you both. And I'm so excited that you're coming to the US in an even bigger way in the year ahead. And I'm eager to hear what else you learn from this fabulous consultant that you've hired and what the new business plan is going to look like. But it sounds like lots of exciting things for both of you. So, and congratulations on the book. Thank you, Dennis. Yeah, and everything that's happening for you. Thank you. Yeah, I think it's been, you know, bearing in mind we've been reflecting on what a process it has been doing the book as part of sort of rounding out our stage of our career.

1:06:57And then, you know, now doing this podcast, it all feels like part of that as well. So thank you so much for having us. We've always been a huge fan of the show and we really don't have anything like this in the UK. So we're very grateful that you've let us Brits in on the act. So thank you.

1:07:41It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.