Stephanie Sabbe keeps it real

29:07That's backfired, obviously, because this is a profession. I don't even follow my clients on Instagram. I need you to have your own. We don't need to know what you're doing all the time. And I don't share what I'm doing all the time either. My Instagram, as open as it is, I'm not sharing every move my husband and I make on the weekends, you know, or what I'm doing with my children. So people do feel like they know a lot about me, but there's actually most of my life is like absolutely not documented. I'm just chatting in my car. I did, I think I've shared this with you. I did hear, was it you who interviewed Michael Smith about the Obama White House?

29:50Yeah. Yeah. And I listened to that a long time ago. And I was sitting on the beach and I was thinking, ha ha ha, I will never be invited to decorate a White House because what you got. You are such a security risk, clearly, that they will not. But y 'all, seriously, everyone, listen, you do not hear me talk about my clients. You do not hear me talk about fails on projects. You do not hear me blast mess ups on tradesmen. Like I do have a line that I think if people actually looked at what I'm sharing, it's all confidential. Like I don't, you don't even know who my clients are, you know? And so I, I don't know.

30:30I think we have to really be ourselves. And if you like me, you like me. And if you don't, you don't, you know, and we all don't need that much work to survive. Like I'm not trying to build this huge operation. You know, we are the size we are. and I just hope enough people like us to keep us in business. But you don't feel, I mean, all joking aside, you don't feel as though your real client, who you're absolutely right, you don't talk about and you don't reveal and that's all completely separate. It's not pushing them away. People aren't looking at your Instagram and going, oh, or maybe you can't tell, I don't know.

31:11I don't know. I really, I'm being vulnerable right now. How many jobs were you so close to getting? And then, oh, and then they checked out the Instagram and they thought. I know. I've never been asked. I've never worked with a client who has like a NDA or anything like that. So I don't think my typical client is that kind of client. So we've not worked for celebrities that have that kind of privacy concerns. We really work with people whose mothers worked with designers who really get the process because they've seen their mom do it. And it's a very much like you become an adult, you get a designer, you work with them for your whole life.

31:47And those are more our relationships. But, you know, those people have the same amount of privacy I would give Justin Timberlake. You know, like we don't talk about our clients. And yeah, I think that might be confusing. I don't know. Am I having an existential crisis on the show right now? This is a very pertinent topic to what my brain has been spiraling around. I think at the end of the day I want to be more than an interior designer I love what I do I feel fortunate every single day what I do but at the end of the day I want to and that's why I share my faith too it's just I share all the parts with me um not like every little marital dispute and stuff like that but like I'm a whole person you know and and and people who own homes are whole people and I want people to understand that I get that you're more than whatever the job is that's paying for you to hire me.

32:39Well, and talk to me about sharing your faith because you do. And there are a couple of different chapters in the book that refer to your faith. Yeah. I mean, the church costume party story. I know. I do love that story because I ended up working for Donna Miller. It's like crazy. You have to please read the words of my book. That's all I want people to do. But yeah, I grew up like on the dark side of the church. Like I was raised by a single mom in the Baptist church and like she took us, but it wasn't like we were in, we were never in. And so when I see people who feel this way and I still go to church and I still firmly believe what I believe, but I feel that like when I see people hurting because they've been hurt by the church or kicked out of the church or just all these things that people are wrestling with openly now because they have the internet i feel that i can relate to that because i have been that so that's why i speak to faith and just share what i believe i don't have the answers you know i don't have i'm not really in it to like convert people i mean we're gonna have a mass baptismal obviously in my in my front of my studio soon i mean after after the revolution but my faith has gotten me through my life.

33:59It truly has. Interior design has too. It truly has. But they're both there and it's both this thread that's kind of woven throughout my entire story. So I felt that I wanted to share that just because it's part of who I am and not in any sort of like, you don't believe this, you're going to hell.

34:22We're taking a quick break to remind you that you can discover Hickory Chair at a trade showroom near you, or explore its website to find inspiring collections, fabrics, finishes, and a wide range of customization options for crafting bespoke upholstery and wood pieces for your home. If you're attending High Point Market this spring, stop by their stunning showroom at 200 North Hamilton. Experience Ray Booth's new collection, Unwind in the Design Center, and enjoy a cup of espresso, a cocktail, a free lunch, and Hickory Chair's signature hospitality. For more inspiration, visit hickorychair.com or follow along on Instagram at hickorychair.

35:06And now, back to the show.

35:13tell me what substack's about for you is it another outlet is it a different do you do you think differently about what you do on substack versus what you do on instagram or how do you think about it yes for sure for some reason substack is like it's still an art to me i don't feel compelled to get on there and build a following and and follow other people it is a one-way stream of communication and i think that's what's hard about instagram i feel like we can all only consume so much. Like when my mom died, I thought I'd be really, I could not handle Instagram. It's that relational side of it.

35:46That's good from what we've talked about previously, but then bad when you're just an exhausted human being that can't do like two-way communication anymore. And so Substack is just you and your computer and you're just writing. There's a comment section, you know, but it's not Instagram. It's not like this peppering of, you know, most of the time It's just kind people. I mean, people have paid me to follow it, which is crazy because it's so free. And I'm like, I don't even know who people are. But like, what kindness like that you think my words are that interesting or relevant or, you know, beautiful to read like that is just such a kind gesture.

36:24So I'm really enjoying that. I'm trying to do one a week, but I'm already a little behind. But I don't know. There's something pure about writing. I'm not doing pictures. I'm trying to never do pictures because then it becomes an Instagram or I loved blogging back in the day, but I'm not interested in doing that either. Well, and a lot of people have talked about Instagram fatigue and a lot of people have just, they're seeing their numbers change and they don't know, should I be doing more reels? Should I be sharing more? I can't do all that. I can't. And I actually like when people talk about that on social media, because it's like, do we really do we have to care?

37:05I remember years ago, I was in House Beautiful. And we both know and love Sophie. And Sophie was like giving us all tips on how to get published. And this is laughable. She's like, it's helpful if your clients have over 10 ,000 Instagram for like 10 ,000, which is like everybody has 10 ,000, you know, now. But at the time, that was like the benchmark and it will always get higher, you know, and it's follow my business because I'm a businesswoman and you're a businesswoman. It's like, oh my gosh, I can't look because you're going to post yourself in Panama City on the beach with your kids and that's going to be completely unrelated and I'm going to look at it and take it in as more information.

37:43And it's Like I just have to cut it off sometimes. Like it's not unkind to me to like not follow everybody. Like maybe their information is something you just don't want to look at all day. You know, I think they have a mute button now. Someone told me that you don't have to like straight up unfollow, but guard your heart, guard your brain, guard your mind. Like you don't watch 12 TV shows every day. And I don't think you should have to expose yourself to that much social media out of some sort of support your fellow businessman idea, you know? I agree. I mean, and I can understand what has led to the fatigue.

38:16Yeah. Right? I mean. Like when people are like, I've noticed I'm not getting as many views. So y 'all go like my page. I'm like, I want to be like, girl, stop. Don't do that. Like, it's not that important. Don't need that. Don't do that. Right? Don't let them own you like that. Just say whatever. Maybe you got a post that's got 10 likes. Who cares? Just assume everyone who saw it has bad taste. That's what I do. Like if people don't like my picture, I'm like, I guess it was only the people with the bad taste looking today.

38:48That's just the way to spin it. All right. Let's talk about your design business. And I want to talk about your retail store as well, which sort of grew out of this. And I think it's a beloved shop and people really, they think they're going to get to come and hang out with you, I think. They kind of do. I thought I would hide and be like, oh, you know, and I'll hear people's voices. I'm like, I'm here. It's me. I'm behind the wall. And also I'm like, don't talk about me. I'm here. I'm behind the wall. We had some people come in one time after like a boozy brunch and they were just like talking about everything on the shelf.

39:24And I would say, hello, please don't say anything that's going to hurt my feelings. I'm back here. But yeah, no, my business, I do interior design, actually. I am not just an author. I have heard that. I have heard that you also do interior design. Yes, and I love my job so much and feel so privileged to get to do this every day. I went to college for this and started in commercial and did that for seven years before going out on my own in 2010. I mean, it is a real pinch me kind of job. I mean, it is hard. Like it is 10 % design and 90 % business for sure. and I do feel like we've reached this really sweet spot within our company where we've been able to do these large scale homes soup to nuts for the past like three to four years and we're good at like we're good at it we got we have this machine we have this process I'll talk to you about processes and I just I'm excited to like I've always been confident as a designer but I am now this I'm confident as running a project running a business knowing how to you know and laughing at what things we've done in the past.

40:31I'm like, oh my gosh, we were just, we had no clue what we were doing. You know, we talked today about, I told the bookkeeper that during COVID, I thought my bookkeeper was ordering all this stuff and she was ordering it. But if you order for interior design, you know, it's not like Amazon. You send a PO, they send a sales agreement, you send it back with a check. And we missed that last part with the check during COVID for a solid eight weeks. And I was like, hey, do we have tracking on, you know, all this stuff? And they you're like, oh, we never mailed those checks. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going to die of a heart attack.

41:03And it's fun to look back and be like, we made it, y 'all. We grew, we changed, we've built a company. So I'm proud of that. Yeah. And as you say, so we've joked a lot in this conversation about you're not having plans, but when it comes to design, it's planning, planning, planning. and you do have this process and you don't have to reveal trade secrets but I mean speak to your speak to your process a little bit you know there's no secrets of me um well I yeah so I mean I don't think our our process is all that unique like I don't you know as far as how we bring in new clients and and you know we use Pinterest in a certain way we use it as a a saving data tool more than just an inspiration.

41:55So we will save stuff there as a pin because you can click back to the website easily. And then from there, we will take those, you know, cold through selections and we will put it into Studio Webware, which is what a lot of interior designers use. But the thing that we started doing in the past two years is we've used Vimeo and we record our processes of that step and 20 million other steps, how we set up our CAD files. and that was something that um I was freaking out in the middle of the night with staff turnover and just like oh my gosh every time I hear someone new I have to take two weeks off of productivity just to get them onboarded and so I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of this but so we started making these videos and uh we have a little webcam and we just pass it around and so we have this library of everything we do and the way we do it recording our screens and our voices walking through it.

42:50And now I sleep through the night. Well, and I'm curious getting back to the things that you share and you talk to me about this notion of you try to be so open with clients so that they can feel safe, for lack of a better word, right? In really opening up to you and revealing to you how they really live and not pretending maybe that they're fancier than they actually are or that they live more formal or structured fancy. I feel like you're like dumbing it down for me. Thank you, Dennis. Yeah, I did share that. That is something like I come with my arms open of like who I am and where I come from and how I live, you know, and I just hope that clients feel safe with me.

43:43I think I attract that kind of client and that's a part of my Instagram personality is I attract the clients who are attracted to me. And, you know, I have friends that have these very shiny things. Their clienteles are shiny. They're shiny. I went to a party recently where my framer, my picture framer, who had on Skechers and no offense to Skechers, but Ann wasn't even trying to look hot at all. And I was trying to look like medium hot. Okay. I had clogs on. That was like fancy for me. And she looked at me at this party where everyone was just very in white and like jushed up. And she's like, you know, it's not like me and you, Stephanie.

44:23I'm like, Ann, I'm actually trying to be hot. You're not even trying. But I attract people like Ann and I, you know, it's just it's who I am. It's what I'm good at. If you if you have a need to be the fanciest person on your block, you're probably not calling me. And I'm OK with that. But the people who know that like full set stone means you are rich AF, like that's the kind of wealth I want flexed around this time. Like don't show me your fancy car. Don't, you know, I don't need gold everything. Like show me cedar siding with full set stone. Like I want doors that are not pre-bored. You know, I want them to be bored on site with the door hardware, with the little teeny backplate.

45:08because if anybody knew about money, they would know people who do that, that costs way more. Who knew? But that is the kind of wealth flexing I would like everyone to know. It's like a subtle, it's like nobody knows, but we just spent 10 extra thousand dollars on those doors. Exactly. These doors cost way more than they had to because that's the kind of wealth flexing that we want to be the signature of our design. People think you're poor, but you're not. That's my specialty. No. That's Stephanie's, if you know, you know. It's, yeah, I actually think that's great, which leads me to my next question that I want to talk with you about, which is, and I don't know how to best describe this, but we're having a lot of conversations recently about the beige-ification of design or this sort of monochromatic look that gets served up to us, right, algorithmically.

46:05Yeah. And there's been a lot of conversation recently about just trying to show the client in the process and just to, I don't know, your design style is very different than that. And I wonder if you can speak to this. Yeah, it's very popular in Nashville, what you're describing. having i was thinking about this a lot this week and i i really think that the homes we crave as adults when we can afford to buy homes and decorate are all born out of like our life experience and i feel like a lot of people grew up in the 80s and 90s with a lot of clutter and a lot of stuff and a lot of you know things that they're escaping and so those that's that home speaks to them so there's no shame in that.

47:00It's just, yeah, it's what people are comfortable in. You know, I grew up in a Cracker Barrel and I love junk everywhere. You know, it does not give me hives. It's a story, you know, we're like, and I'm not joking. I worked for a hot minute for the CEO of Cracker Barrel here. And, uh, she took me into the back room where all the stuff is like the warehouse. And I was like, holy crap, like this is my heaven. And she looked at me and And she's like, are you being serious right now? I was like, I'm being dead serious. Like if you told seven-year-old me she'd get to go to the Cracker Barrel warehouse of stuff and tchotchkes, I would have been like, you're joking.

47:36But it's that storytelling element and being okay with like committing to who you are. And I think so many people haven't like settled into their story yet. So like an all white box feels right because they're still figuring out who they are. My client is, that's not my client. That's not your client. That's not my client. Nobody wants me that likes that look. and that's okay. There are tons of us. That's the beauty of interior design. There's all this argument, you know, these magazine articles trying to kind of pit us all against each other. We don't want that. We need people who are in this lane and I'm in that lane, you know.

48:07I'm in a lane that may not be the most universally popular, but I love this lane. And like I said, it doesn't take much for me to be busy. We're not a huge firm. So I feel very little like kind of competitiveness or any sort of flare up when there are these like trend announcements i'm like oh yeah whatever you gotta you gotta sell some magazines you know well well i mean so we the other day we were talking about dopamine design right so our color drenching i see all these words y 'all making up yeah yeah well i you know i try to keep people informed about the micro trends. You do an amazing job.

48:51We are. Yeah. Thank you for educating us. No, no, no, absolutely. But I mean, what I really wonder and some people are talking and writing today about all of this being sort of a distraction from what great design is is all about. And that really great design is is timeless and great design is deeply personal. And of course, it's not really about trends. And of course, it's about sitting in someone's home and actually watching the light travel through their house throughout the course of the day. And right. And understanding. I'm like listening to an audible book. Yeah. Yes. What it really is about is sitting in that living room and seeing what time the light best hits that room.

49:45I miss that kind of stuff. We got into that. like in college, obviously, and then commercial design gets real into the woo-woo. But residential, they're like, what? I'm like, the concept behind this design, they're like, where does my chair go? Yeah, I don't know that that's an interesting. I just really, really try. I say this and I'm full of you know what, because you've seen me drive around Nashville and post some of these homes. Those homes are by developers and they are doing it to make money. And that bothers me because it's what my children will grow up in. I really try hard not to go after people who are building their own home the way they want to build it.

50:25That is their prerogative. So if someone likes beige and minted art on the wall and a futon with a big screen TV and they're happy, who am I to judge? You know, you got it figured out. Yeah, I don't care what people do. I just hope that what I do speaks to somebody, you know, and I think it will. It does, you know, got to rethink my Instagram, apparently, and maybe not be so crazy. But well, I don't know if that's the takeaway message here at all. I mean, I think it's going to be so interesting when you start going on a book tour and traveling around the country, right? And showing up and hearing from a lot more people.

51:05I'm sure you had a lot of people come up to you when we did a panel together at High Point. Your panelists loved being with you and loved meeting you. I thought it was so fun that they hadn't met you before and just jumped right in and right. I think it's funny. I think the whole thing is funny because it's kind of like fake, you know, like I do interior design and that's my job. There's so many people that do interior design and they're so good at it. And they'll never have that. Like they'll never be on your show and they'll never be on a panel because they're just like, don't choose to be as loud as me.

51:39Like my popularity is based on my loudness. And that is why you're on the show. It is actually like we should say, I asked to be on the show several times for the, I don't know how many years. And Dennis is like, well, what will we talk about? I'm like, what will we not talk about? You know, I've never been afraid to ask for things like this. But it's just funny that people would regard me with any sort of celebrity because of it, because it's not, it's just funny. I don't know. It's not real. It's just the internet, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So many of the things that the trade and brands are trying to do to better cater to designers, right?

52:21So if there's one thing that has come out of the last few years, it's that so many brands have woken up to the importance, the significance, the opportunity of working with designers. And Fred and Aiden worked on a big long piece just recently about trade programs and what designers are looking for. I'm curious what is relevant from all of that to you? Is trade exclusivity important to you or does that not really matter so much? What is important to you? I do feel like trade exclusivity is like an endangered species. But it is sad to see some of these vendors pop up on sites like Wayfair. Vendors thought to me have had that kind of like, I remember when I got an, I don't want to say any brand specifically, but I remember one Fabric vendor when I got an account with them when I was living in Boston and really, it was like a pretty woman moment.

53:21You know, they were like kind of snobby. And then I got an account and they're kind of nice, you know, and I was like, I made it. And then like 10 years later, I saw them on Wayfair and I was like, what the heck? Like that was a big deal to me to get that account. And I don't know. We just really look for vendors that are going to help us when the bottom falls out. And that sort of doesn't come to the light until the bottom falls out. So when a piece of upholstery comes in with a big rip down the back or, you know, just all little things like you will never, you could write a whole encyclopedia called things that could go wrong with interior design and it will happen.

53:57And we are the tie that binds all the trades, all the furniture, the client, like our hand is in all of it. And the, the, um, opportunity for mistake is just huge. And so when people make comments like your job must be so fun, I'm like, Oh, hold on there. You know, last year I bought a$35 ,000 furniture package. I owned it until we had a tent sale last October, but we mismeasured by six inches in a theater room and the client, she wanted to go. And there wasn't much I could say. I said, it's a little bit tighter, but I think it works. And she said, nope. And I took it back. And that's the kind of stuff, you know, I'll talk about that on social media because my client deserves privacy.

54:39I don't want to look like an idiot, you know, but those kinds of things happen all the time. And so when we have vendors, when it is, you know, the fault of the company and they stick with this and they don't try to say like, well, I can't help you. You know, it's just standing by your man, you know, good customer service. Like it's all pretty basic. I don't need like some beautiful finished presentation. I don't need a chain set. I need to call you and you give me an accurate quote, an accurate lead time, and then stick with me when you know what hits the fan.

55:15We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer-quality custom-size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples, and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a trade-only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. That's Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. And now, back to the show.

56:00So recently, we were talking about this big survey that came out. They talked to a bunch of interior designers and architects and builders. and it's a big state of the industry. And in it, one of the things that they talked about was tell us what some of the biggest challenges are facing your business today. And a lot of interior designers talked about costs as you and I were just talking about earlier. A lot of designers, and many wrote to me in preparing to discuss that saying, oh my God, that is driving people away in droves from my business because I give them a quote on whether it's a new build, as we were just talking about earlier, or even just some construction on their home.

56:51And often it's two or three times what they thought. I know. I met with an architect yesterday and I was like, I hate being a dream crusher. I genuinely hate being a dream crusher because I feel like I'm not an over-promiser. I will tell you all the terrible things that may happen. And then I will pad the, we don't estimate what it's going to cost to furnish a house on the front end. So we don't get into projects like that. We'll give numbers from a previous project that is in similar level. And we'll say, this is what that project costs. So I don't crush dreams in that way. But when I was growing my business, I always thought, oh, you know, when you get to these full soup to nuts houses, like you've made it, you know, that's the goal.

57:35You've made it. Like you, you don't do the little stuff anymore. And I was talking to a couple of friends this morning and I was like, y 'all, when you have your year laid out and you have an$8 million project go on hold, what do you do? Like, I don't want to take more work than my staff can do out of consideration for them being humans and having a life. And so we build, you know, we look at our year and we take what we, we can take and we begin the jobs. And then again, it's in the hands of God. Like you get to a phase and you get a bid and the client can't afford it. And they're like, we need several months to think about it.

58:12And I'm like, what am I going to do with my staff for several months? You know, that is my hardest thing. And I don't know the answer. And I've put it out there on the internet. I had a friend this morning say, all right, you got to keep your eggs in several baskets, you know, so I'm exploring that. But I do think there's this like, you're supposed to be always on this like upward trajectory mentality. Like I, you know, the shinier, the bigger, the better, the chase. But I'm trying to pull back and say like, when the shiny hits the fan, you know, when that stuff hits the fan, what do we do to keep our staff busy and run a responsible business?

58:49We track all our hours. I'm big on data. Like, I think I'm actually a lot more businessy than anyone gives me credit for. But, you know, we build by the hour and keep a very thorough record of what our tasks are and so my staff is required to meet a certain billable rate or then we have to sit down and look like do we need you on staff if you're not billable and it's not their fault when the project they've been working on suddenly gets put on hold and I'm like well how do I how do I do a review for you because I haven't even given you billable work this week you know stuff like that so it's hard to be a business owner I think I've just kind of skipped through it like rainbows and butterflies until maybe this year.

59:29And this year has just not 25, 24 was just kind of like, it was the end of the COVID. I mean, we were, I look back at our books and just what we were selling, what we were being hired for. It was just bananas. At one point I had three times the staff of what I currently have. And, um, I, as far as I can see, that's not, that's not the case anymore. And so we're kind of like, I'm in a little bit of a like, oh, I thought that's just the way it would always be. I thought it was this upward trajectory forever. And now we're in this real estate is sitting longer in Nashville. Interest rates are high.

1:00:06It's affecting my business as I see it. But then what do we do in the meantime? You know? Well, exactly. And those are the very real challenges. And I think people thought we were going to be past these challenges somehow. We thought rates were going to be lower. We thought that housing prices were going to come down. In November, we thought this? Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought too. Because everybody kept telling me like, oh, just wait, just wait until the election. That stuff will all change. And I'm like, hey, y 'all, it's almost March. When is this going to change? Because I want it to be COVID again.

1:00:42I want 2020 back. Y 'all get in your house and then you call me. It's a mess. Well, and I remember pre-COVID, every designer that I spoke to said they were doing something in Nashville. Oh, really? And yes. I mean, when I was working in the D &D building, everybody that would come through the showroom with, oh yeah, no, no, we've got a big project in Nashville coming up. Oh, because they were moving from LA and New York here, right? Yes. Is that not the case anymore? Well, I mean, I think as you were just saying, houses are sitting on the market longer. We just got some of the numbers from the National Association of Home Builders and they've lowered their expectations and they don't see a strong market in many parts of the country.

1:01:26Well, good. I'm not saying good, but I'm glad it's not just me. I'm like, I don't know any data. I'm like, hey, is everybody okay? Or am I feeling it by myself? that's one thing about interior design is we all are a little even my dearest friends we're a little puffed up and we lit we're not real vulnerable about like that kind of stuff i feel like people are like i'm super busy are you not super busy i'm super busy and i'm like i mean we've been busier like we've are the call volume has been much higher than it currently is so good to hear but also bad to hear i guess well nobody know exactly but and i and i and i appreciate you being open about that.

1:02:04And listen, I mean, talking with Benjamin Noriega Ortiz just recently, and he talked about how he scaled up his firm for a project that in the end didn't come to fruition and had to let all these people go. It was this big hotel project and it didn't happen. And he said, you know what? I'm never doing that again. I'm never scaling up like that for something that may or may not happen. And to your point, a project gets put on hold. I've had numerous designers tell me the client gets the bid back for the house and they said, oh, you know what? We need to sit with this for a while. Yep. That's where I am right now where we've designed and we've done our part and we're ready to roll.

1:02:41We're ready to buy that furniture. And it's like, you know, and they're like, oh, there's no budget for furniture. I'm like, wait, what? That's like my main part. Yeah, it's hard. I, in many ways, feel like I just started this. and in other ways to like I've been doing it for 200 years. You know, it's like, it's a very humbling field, even right down to like, we don't do traditional advertising. We are a service business that's based mainly on word of mouth. And it's kind of like scowled upon to do this like traditional marketing. And that's weird, you know? So you're literally like a farmer praying for rain.

1:03:20Like, hey, oh, give me some work, maybe. Like, you don't seek it out, you know? So like there's no sales call leads and stuff like that. So it's a very kind of paralyzing feeling when you do feel that slowdown and you have these staff members relying on you and you don't feel like there are active measures to take to, you know, swing the pendulum the other way. Were there ever? Did you ever do a form of marketing? Did you ever? I can't really like the, I wish this is the most painful like confession. of my interview here is after 2020, I built a dollhouse on Instagram and I had more people call me for professional interior design services from building a dollhouse on Instagram than I have had for any show house, any article in Veranda magazine, any, anything, any, anything that felt like the right professional thing.

1:04:17I had Barbie dolls dancing in a kitchen that I modeled off of the Duvall kitchen, you know, and my phone was like blowing up and it kills me because I mean, I went to college, you know, like there should be different metrics. And so I don't understand the world anymore. I don't know what's right to be on Instagram. Do I be professional or do I build another dollhouse? You know, I don't know. It feels very, um, I'm a control freak and that feels very much out of my control. And I very much dislike that as a part of this profession. Do you want this book to help you in that capacity? Do you want this book to?

1:04:55Yeah, I mean, yes, I will say yes. If it doesn't happen, I will not be surprised because just being honest for any designers who are like chasing this sort of, you know, publication spotlight thing. I was in Southern Living in October and Veranda in December and January, and we have not had a single call related to those two. And if that didn't do it, I no longer understand like marketing, like, you know, kind of non-marketing marketing, like being in a magazine that you like didn't pay to be in. You know, it feels like the purest form of like coincidental press. Right. Like it's like, you know, it was happenstance.

1:05:37I didn't even try. Look at me. I just ended up in this magazine. And that doesn't do it. It doesn't do it. And I don't I don't know how I don't know. yeah i have no tips well so i mean to your point does that you being published in these in these magazines and and not getting a response does that speak to the time or does that speak to the to the reduced impact of media today does it speak to this confusing landscape people are so distracted i mean is it the timing i mean my unprofessional instagram i don't know your unprofessional Instagram that's driving people away. Michael Smith is my new role model.

1:06:17I don't know. I wish I knew. I do. I really think because I talk a lot on Instagram, I'm not getting the calls I did in 2020. No, my Instagram was not any more professional back then. So we'll go ahead and scratch that off. We'll alleviate myself of the burden of wondering, have I gone too far? No, I was a weirdo back then. It's fine. I don't know. I don't know what's up. I wish you should tell me. I don't know. I feel Like you're the professional. We need to know. Mainly because you always assume it's you. Like I don't think it's my Instagram. I think I've done beautiful work the past four years.

1:06:50We put a book together. But if you would have told little, you know, 31-year-old Stephanie who worked in the corner of her Boston bedroom that you could be in all these magazines and that you could have a published book and that you would still be like, we need more work. We need more work to keep this feeling like we're going at the rate I would like to go. I would be like, what? Like, that's crazy, you know? And I just haven't figured it out. I don't know. I had a marketing person call me a couple of years ago and I was like, worst sales pitch ever. She's like, yeah, I just want to let you know, nobody's heard of you.

1:07:27I've asked people around town and they've never even heard of you. And I was like - That's what she said to you? Yeah. And like, she could help. And I was like, I would rather go out of business. No, thank you. You know, like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I have a friend who does traditional like magazine marketing, like where she buys an ad. And I feel like that's not as popular these days as whereas it was fine to do that back then. We all pride ourselves a lot on saying, I've never advertised. I've never advertised. It's all just word of mouth. And people are lying if they don't know that they puff up when they say that because we all puff up, including me.

1:08:02We're like, it just happened. And it's fine. Good for us. but also what happens when you do need to advertise? Like what's the right way to do it? And are we somehow like not as sought after or like high level because we just wanna make sure like the person who doesn't do Instagram actually knows we exist, you know? Like that has crossed my mind that I'm talking to a lot of people that wouldn't be the client, that my Instagram doesn't appeal to the type of client that would hire me as well. And so I don't know, We have looked at some traditional marketing stuff too this year as far as like putting out ads in magazines.

1:08:39I don't know. But if they're not getting it in Veranda for free, I'm not sure they care. Exactly. If they're writing this up in Veranda. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, I think how much of this speaks to the time that we're in. Funny enough, right as COVID began, we started putting together programs, preparing people for this recession and this industry collapse that everybody in the moment thought was coming. Right. And we reached out to Corey Damon Jenkins, who has who has the famous story of knocking on hundreds of doors before he gets that first project. And he was going to help guide us through this challenging time in the industry.

1:09:28I had designers crying to me on the phone, telling me they were going to have to elect all of their entire staff. They were going to have to close their business. And then in a heartbeat, right? Yeah. The busiest the industry has ever been. And P.S. Perhaps we'll ever be again in our lifetime. Which is hard to wrestle with. I want to be that again. I want to go back. Take me back. Exactly. Well, you and everybody else. Yeah. And the thing is, and I really do think it's entirely possible that we are never going to have that situation again. And to your point of all these people who moved to Nashville, all these people who bought all these homes, all these people who drove all those prices up.

1:10:09Did that reach a peak? Did that climax? For other homeowners, like it's just very, it's unattainable. Wait, so we're never going back to the COVID days again. I'm still digesting that. You know what's sad? Do you need a moment with that? I need a moment because here's the thing. That was designer boot camp. That was for designers like me who had been like, okay, busy, but like, we're going to hold your feet to the fire and we're going to give you lead times that are like 30 weeks and you're going to have to survive. And so it sharpened me so much those COVID years. And now I feel so strong. It's like, I don't have the same kind of work that I have done to flex the skills that I've honed, you know, and we have work.

1:10:50I don't want any of my current clients to hear that you are not work, you are work. But we had four times the work during COVID. And I think often if Gibbs Smith would have called me to write a book this year, had I already pushed out these projects in other ways, I wouldn't have the material. Like I won't have nine full home projects ready to shoot in a long time, another eight years. You know, like it's just different. And listen, I mean, I don't want to be a downer. I'm eager for the industry to turn the corner. Many people thought survive to 25 and thrive. And this was supposed to be thrive.

1:11:2725 was all about thrive. And Cyrus Lalloy told me the other day, I need to come up with a rhyme for 26 now because

1:11:38because it's not it's not thrive in 25. He thinks once again, it's survive 25 and then pick up sticks in 26. I mean, we need to come up with. Yeah, I don't know. I know. I have a daughter who wants to do interior design. She is only seven, but she has said since she was like three years old, she wants to be an interior designer. And so it gives me perspective of like, maybe I'm not doing this for myself. Maybe my highs and lows are just building a business for her to run one day. And so it makes it all seem like have a little bit more purpose because if I thought I was going to do this and then just like retire and dump it on the ground, because it is so much work to build a company and establish your ways of doing things in a portfolio and all these things.

1:12:26It's like, it would feel so wasteful and to maybe, and you know, she's going to start her own firm. It's going to be like Cora Sabi and Tears. I'm just like, I don't want your firm. But the thought of a child coming in and being able to learn from this and take over, it makes it all feel like I'll be like, oh, let me tell you about 2020 when your mom went on Lexapro, but then made the most money she's ever made in her entire life. Exactly. And I think a lot of designers and I think, listen, a lot of the trade companies and the retail, they all went on Lexapro and got through those years. Yeah, we made it.

1:13:06Yes. And we made it through and they're all wanting those years back. Good to hear. I really didn't know this. I work in a little silo and I'm like, oh, we're all feeling this. This is so refreshing to me because my Instagram is a one-way conversation and people aren't sharing this kind of stuff. So I love, I love that, but I don't love it, but I love that we're all in it together. Let's tell people when Interiors of a Storyteller comes out. When does it come out? March 25th. March 25th. All right. Well, look for, look for that. You will, you will laugh. You'll cry. You will get to know Stephanie so much more.

1:13:46And I think you will love and admire her even more than so many of your fans already do. Fans. Let's call them my friends. No, I don't have fans. Okay. Well, you have a lot of friends. And I appreciate all of them reaching out to me in the way that they did. And they're excited to hear from you. So I hope we delivered a show. I felt so much pressure about this show because I felt like I want to give people the Stephanie. Give people what they want. Yeah. Exactly. I want to. No, I think people are even curious about you and I being friends. Like I told you that that was brought up when I was in London.

1:14:26They're like, how did you get to know Dennis? And I'm like, oh, Dennis, we go way back. Yeah, me and Denny. But we have met in real life. we have had lunch. Like we do know each other. It's a beautiful thing. It makes the world small. You and I would not be friends. Sophie and I would not, you know, it's just, it's great. As much as I've said, it's not, there's so many wonderful things about social media. I completely agree. And if social media did nothing more than make us friends, I'm incredibly grateful for it. So thanks, Dennis. Yeah, no, I really appreciate it. And I'm thrilled to finally get to have you on the show.

1:15:05And I, and I thank you for all of this. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider Community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda.

1:15:44I'm Dan of Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.