Studio Four's Stacy Waggoner on what tariffs have revealed about high-end fabric

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Stacey Wagner of the New York Fabric Showroom, Studio 4. A veteran of Jack Leonard Larson's legendary studio, Stacey has spent her entire career in textiles. Founded in 2009, Studio 4 is the culmination of her passion for fabric, an independent home for lines from around the world. loved by designers for its unique viewpoint. I spoke with Stacey about the rise of digitally printed textiles, what makes a line successful in her showroom, and the surprising truth tariffs have revealed about the fabric business.

1:02This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. At Ernesta, there's a true belief in the transformative power of interior design. Founded with the desire to make getting the custom-sized rug easier, faster, and more affordable, Ernesta simplifies the process by hand-selecting quality materials and styles that appeal to nearly every sensibility, and delivering each rug in as little as two weeks. Join Ernesta's trade program to lay the foundation to your projects with ease. Apply for membership today at Ernesta.com slash B-O-H. I'm going to take you back in time because I was talking not too long ago with the incredible Christine Vanderherd.

1:53Right? I mean, one of the coolest creatives in the industry. Yes. And was reminded that you guys met all the way back when you were working for Jack Leonard Larson, right? I did. So Christine's office was upstairs from Jacqueline Larson's headquarters at 41 East 11th Street. Okay. And they would have joint warehouse sales. So one of the first, I guess probably the first time I met Christine was during one of the warehouse sales. And she owned, is it Modern Age? Yes. I think this was her company. Yes. These like cool, very cool furnitures. And I bought these very cool bent wood, kind of like the shape of the original Thonet chair.

2:39But they had these incredible back splats that were gilded and modern and cut out and all that. And I still have those in my head. Really? She came for dinner. Yeah. So she came for dinner the last time she was in town. and I've got the chairs in my living room and she just, you know, we had a moment about that. Well, and how great that you guys have been together. I mean, you weren't working together at the time, but years later, that's tremendous to have that relationship. Yeah, I really treasure the relationship with Christine. I think, you know, she has always been just such an icon of weaving and an amazing rug designer, but also she does these just like completely stunning prints and she does the embroidery that she does.

3:25I mean, it really is the whole package. And take me back to working with Jack Leonard Larson and let's remind people of what a huge figure Jack Leonard Larson was. Well, I think like Jack Larson was that good textile icon. I mean, he really was, you know, he was sort of the same era as Florence Noel Bassett and he was incredibly innovative. He had all these things that he would fly out of his mind in the studio, and they'd somehow produce it. And I worked for him for 10 years. The first 10 years, I was in New York. And it was like being in a textile master's program. Every year, we would have a big fall launch.

4:08So all of the sales teams from across the country, he would bring in everyone for a three-day weekend. And on the first night, we'd have a dinner, and they'd do a big, glamorous presentation of the whole collection. and everybody would clap and laugh. And then the next day, you'd start in on, okay, here are the technical aspects of it. This is what you need to know. Here's how it's made. Here's what the fiber, here's what the fiber does. Here's what it doesn't do. And then that was the technical aspects. And then the next thing was the sales aspects and how to sell it and who to sell it to and what it's for.

4:44And it really was so cool because, and that was super important because virtually every collection he had, there were like one or two or three things that you'd send out in the, in the workrooms would go, well, I don't know how to work with this. So they would send it back. We don't know how to make this. And it was a nightmare. And we're like, no, no, no. So we had to, we, as the sales team, first we had to convey all that to the interior designers and like this is how you use this and and then a lot of times we'd get on the phone with the workroom and just walk them through the process with it and and I think that was a just such a valuable experience and I mean I love to know how things are work how things work how things are made I love going to a factory I love I love seeing just the inner stuff well and and so So often with his textiles and his mastery of the intricacies of weaving, it's almost as though the product itself was so striking and interesting.

5:48But once you heard how incredibly challenging it was to even produce it, the fact that it existed at all somehow made it even more extraordinary. Yeah. I mean, he went around the world and saw these very traditional weaving programs happening in villages and things across Africa. And he would say, oh, let's produce this. And so we had this Swazi lace that was made in Swaziland. land and it was the looms were operated by men and they had this huge width because that's the arm span that they had of the of the loom so you could get six foot wide fabric that was this incredibly you know textured fabric he went to columbia and revived a weaving tradition there he was very um instrumental in bringing tie silks um to market because i think so i think he partnered with Jim Thompson and Ty Bok and eventually Jerry Pear.

6:44And I think that there's just so, he has such a place in history. And, you know, I mean, one of his first big commissions was like the theater curtains at the Ballet Folklorico in Mexico City. And it was just this like stunning, you know, mosaic of mylar and embroidery and all sorts of crazy things. Well, so you were with him, as you say, for 10 years. Yeah. So I left when, so Jack was retiring for kind of a long time, but I think he had. It took him a while to get off the stage. He was definitely still in the game. And then Counting and Tout purchased Larson and actually it was Colfax, I guess, Colfax and Fowler that encountered Taut and then Larson and Manuel Cannavoss and all these other amazing, amazing lines.

7:33and that's I figured that was time for me to go I just signed off then so I went to work for another multi-line showroom Tui Pranich and I guess he was opening the showroom in New York and had a bunch of lines that I had repped both at Larson and prior to that at David Sutherland which was my first job before moving to New York and then was there it was at Tui's for a little while and then went to AM Collections, which was a couple of guys doing amazing rugs. Amazing stuff. Yeah. Anthony Mott and Anthony Monaco. And I worked for them very early and almost 10 years also. And then the crash happened.

8:13Sadly, the great financial crisis arrived. Exactly. In 2008, it rolls around. And AM was sold to Stark. And they, thank goodness, because Stark really saved AM. But I didn't want to work for a company as large as Stark. So I decided that was about the time. I mean, I stayed until, you know, we transitioned a lot of things and then started Studio 4 with a partner. And we had a great, it was the, well, I guess I'd lost most of my 401k. I was calling it like a 201k at that point. Well, that's what I was wondering. I mean, really, I mean, the industry and it sounds like the business you were working with really dramatically impacted.

9:00And AM might have otherwise gone away were it not for the star acquisition, right? Yeah, exactly. So you and your partner decide, let's start a business. Yeah. So I cashed in the rest of my 401k, which is something I do not recommend, but it works. But you needed some working capital. And it was great. So you took a chance. Yeah. And honestly, it was a great time. We got a great deal on our space at the time. My landlord was making a deal. I'm in an amazing Stanford White building on 20th and Broadway. And when you start in the bottom of a depression, at least you're not comparing yourself to last year's sales.

9:40You're like, it's just all the way up. Exactly. Every number looks good. What we did, sales at all? Great. Exactly. Exactly. Wow, we made$300 this month. And in the early days, what did you have? What was the collection that you were bringing up? Well, we were very lucky. We had 22, which I know you've talked to Rob and Kira Hartnett about that. At the time, they were doing their own wallpaper line, but they weren't yet producing. And we had a lot of carpet and rugs. We still do a huge amount of rugs and textiles, but we're most known, I think, for our fabrics and wallpaper. ICFF happened like right before we were leaving AM and about to start.

10:24We knew we were going to do it. And so we went over to ICFF and literally took our AM collection business cards and scratched out the phone number and put in an email addresses and put in our personal Gmails and talked ourselves into getting the Florence Broadhurst collection of rugs. Oh, okay. So in Florence, at the time, it was a licensing thing for a company called Cadres, and they were wonderful. But it was, so she was such an iconic figure. And kind of, it was interesting because she and Jack Larson were kind of rising to fame around the same time. And she was doing things down in Australia before, you know, FedEx.

11:08And so all the things that Jack was doing here and David Hicks was doing in England. And it would take so long to get to Australia that she was sort of making up her own sunburnt versions of all of those. So we had the rugs. Somehow they were like, sure, we'll take a flyer on a couple of girls who don't even have a place of business yet. Or a card. But so we had those. And that actually opened us up to a lot of things. So we ended up carrying the wallpaper and fabric lines for Florence for a while. And that opened us up to a lot of wallpaper people. Because, I mean, she was having a moment. And there was a – I mean, she's been dead since the 70s.

11:56But there was a very resurgence of popularity and interest in her collection. There had been a movie about her life and death. and she was killed by a serial killer in Sydney. Oh, so there was a whole drama and a whole story behind it. Like, oh, Jane Campion made a movie about it. I mean, it's wild. Gotta go back in the archives for that. We'll have to look it up on that. I'll send you a link. So she was this very mysterious, kind of fabulous figure who kept reinventing herself. She was also, a lot of people that were producing wallpaper at the time really revered her. So it opened us up to a lot of Australian lines that we now carry.

12:41And then also some other cool wallpaper people around the world, they're like, oh, you have Lawrence Broadhurst. Well, okay, well, maybe you do want to look at my line. So I feel like it was the starting gate. But it was a fun start, and it was a really good grounding in wallpaper, and we've grown from that. Another one of our first lines was Eskayel. I know you've talked to Shannon. Yes, who I'm a huge fan of, yeah. Huge fan, huge fan. And she was kind of the first one to really successfully do kind of a kaleidoscopic digital thing. So I think she was really one of the first super strong digital producers.

13:21Well, and that's what I was so curious about, Stacey, because I was trying to pinpoint, and Shannon was one of the early people who was taking a flyer on digital printing at the time. When many in the industry look down their nose at the whole process, perhaps you included at the time. Oh, my gosh. I'm a textile snob from way back. I mean, you know, even before Larson, I was, you know, when I was at David Sutherland, I mean, we had, you know, Dongia and the Twigs and all of these like amazing textile lines. And, you know, digital wasn't even considered at the time. but right around the time right around 2009 2010 you know 2010 i think there was a lot of renewed interest in digital and honestly a whole lot of it and and still i mean it's how do i say this so so it's don't worry about being tactful here stay garbage in and garbage out there you go because it's you know it's it's a it's a photographic process so it's really as good is the Christmas of your file.

14:27So if you've got pristine artwork and your data is really tight, you can produce some really beautiful things digitally. And we work a lot, most our own collection, we've done a lot with artists. So Wayne Pate was our very first sort of arts collaboration. And we're on, I think, starting to think about collection five or might be six. But it's great for that because digital, you can get so detailed and you can really convey the brushstroke and you can really convey layers and layers of color that you really couldn't do as a screen print. If you were trying to do that in screen printing, I mean, imagine trying to screen 60 screens.

15:15Well, you couldn't. Is part of the reason why you're so closely tied to the financial crisis, was it an an innovative and less expensive way to produce? And is that part of what brought it about? Or what do you think led? It's a less expensive way to establish a design. Right. So when we do screen prints, every screen costs about$750. So if you have a five-screen piece that's, you know, it's over$5 ,000, you've got to be really sure that that is your exact design and the exact colors. So the startup of that and the setup and the expense of burning screens is a lot. Production-wise, screen printing is cheaper than digital.

16:03But in digital, you just have to have a good image, and you can print it if you've got a good piece. Now, I think the ease of that made a lot of people not really have to sit and edit what they were doing. I mean, so if you can plop out 32 colors of a shell design, you know, should you? Well, I mean, you were reminding me recently that in the early days, there was a lot of clip art. There was a lot of sort of, it was almost like novelty ties sort of look. It really was. To a lot of what was being done digitally. And that was part of why everybody didn't take it seriously in the early days. It's great that you can put all these birthday cakes in the wallpaper, right?

16:52But who wants all this birthday cake wallpaper? Yeah, unless you're specifically marketing to a bakery and how much effort is there in that? Right. And I mean, it really is. It's such a, the ability to produce it became so widespread that everybody could do. I mean, I kind of feel like there was a time that, you know, the people that a few years before were doing handbags or were doing jewelry or it was, I want to do something creative, so let me do this. But, you know, in reality, the whole idea of producing wallpapers and marketing them and sampling them and selling them and fulfilling them, it's a business.

17:38I mean, it's really, there's a lot more than just saying, oh, I like this design, it's pretty. Right. One of the things that I think that Studio 4 is really good at and I kind of pride ourselves on is that we have a really good with small lines that are kind of coming to the market. And I think a lot of that is like my background in dealing with so many different lines is I know where the pain points are. I know how much sampling we're going to need. It is impossible to overestimate the need for samples in the U.S. market. and a lot of overseas markets simply don't understand that. And they think, oh, well, you know, if I take the same yard and I can do, you know, 36 9x9 samples, but, you know, that means I could do 124 3x3 samples.

18:27You're like, no, nobody's going to look at a 3x3 samples and go, this would make great curtains. So is that part of what is so different in the U.S.? I mean, why are we sampling so much more than the Europeans seem to? and what's going on? It's a whole different model, I think, because in Europe and in England, you have these design shops that you go into, and you can go into Liberty and say, oh, here's this great fabric. Yes, that's what we want to buy. In the U.S., the designer takes things back to their office. They put together boards. They put together the project. They have all of these just amazing presentations.

19:11that they're putting together. And they're not necessarily bringing clients into the showrooms because, you know, I see it in here. We've got a lot of stuff in our showroom, and some designers love bringing their clients in. Some designers would never bring their clients in because it's kind of like, you know, magpies. Oh, squirrel! You know, it is very easy to get distracted. And the designer wants them to see one specific thing, and then suddenly a million things are catching their eye. Yeah. Right, and maybe that's a focus of multi-line showrooms because we do have so much and we're not one shop places.

19:44But I do love working with the small lines. Because, I mean, in larger showrooms, I think, you know, they'll have a mix of really big lines and really small lines. But when the really big line is expanding, they're like, oh, no, where are we going to put little line? Oh, let's go put them over in the back, you know, over down that aisle. And people are forever chasing tiny lines around a showroom and they're not getting the attention they deserve. Yeah. And I think here, I mean, I've got some lines that have 10 SKUs. Is that right? Yeah, they're adorable. Adorable. I don't mean that because I don't mean to diminish them.

20:18But they're like, the 10 SKUs are really great. And they deserve to have a place. They must be great for you to have taken them on in the first place. And I'm curious, to the point that you were just making, and this is what I think is so valuable about working with a multi-line showroom, is the advice and counsel and experience that you've had that you can share with these lines. And as you were just saying, prepare them for the reality of the sampling costs, but also help them understand what. What is going to help these lines to be successful in your mind? What do you look for? What do you try and tell them?

20:57If a designer is interested in a fabric, you know, you kind of have to look at the life of the project. So the designer may say, this is going to be terrific for the sofa in this living room. But the living room is going to wait to be purchased until all the components are in place or a majority of the components are in place. Or at least you're going to order the sofa before you order the fabric. So it could be six, eight months down the line in the project when the designer has known all along they were going to use the sofa. So I think to the designer, it's a line item, right? So it's a line item in a much bigger project.

21:33To the small textile designer who's so excited for that sales, it's kind of everything. So the managing the expectations of that. And also the lines take a little while to hit. I mean, they do. Sometimes there are things that just jump out. I mean, actually, I have to say this. I'm so excited about this. We just got our first order on our block print with samples have been out literally one week. Yeah. So that is really fast. And I am thrilled to death. It does take a really long time. And it sounds as though setting the expectations is such an important part of what you try and do with these lines.

22:16Yeah. And it's also, I mean, virtually everything we do is print to order. We have a few lines, well, except our current block print. We have a few lines that produce and hold some stock, a minimal amount, but almost everything is printed. And it's usually like four to six weeks lead time. I was talking with my friend Brad Bloom over at Pollock a couple of years ago. And I was like, Brad, it's practically in stock. Four to six weeks is nothing. And he laughed. but it's because we produce to order because it's digital you know the idea of carrying all this inventory and making these decisions on whether or not to discontinue a fabric there's a lower bar to entry in the into the marketplace and I think that that's healthy because I think that you can get a lot of really interesting innovative designs that if you had to look at something and say is everybody gonna do that ochre and gray thing, but no, that might be the one that hits.

23:17And for us, I can produce it because all I've got to store is the artwork. I'm still going to print it to order. And that brings me to the whole issue of whether or not you've seen any drop off in the enthusiasm of people to come out with a fabric or wallpaper collection, or if you feel like it's just as strong as it ever was. I actually, fortunately, multiple times a week, I'll have someone will reach out to us and say, hey, I'd love for you to take a look at my line. I think it might be a good fit. They're from England, they're from Australia, they're from across America. And I think it's really exciting.

23:58And I try very hard. I mean, I always look at everything that comes in and I try very hard to send a really quick response because, you know, it's, you know, a lot of people it's a cold call some people it's a oh hey you you know you represent my friend so and so um or x designer told me i should reach out to you or you know i love your website and i think we'd be a good fit or and i and i love that people think about it and look at it but but i also i have limited space here so i have to i have to really love a line and really think it can do well here enough to make room for it, really. Well, that's what I'm wondering.

24:38I mean, do you feel like really you're at capacity, but if a gray line comes along, oh, you'll find the space? Yeah. I mean, we always, and you know, there are things that like we've become more economical in the way that we display some other lines. So maybe we might've had a full drop of fabric in 10 colors, and maybe we decided to reduce that to five wings of, you know, half and half. So So there are ways that we can still squeeze a few more inches out of this showroom. But I don't want it to get so packed that you're like, you know, I went to Studio 4 and we had to, like, you know, fight our way through all the textiles.

25:16And, you know, we missed it. It was too much.

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26:06getting back to digital printing and what i'm what i'm curious about is when did you first see something that really turned your head and made you rethink digital printing or or made you realize how far it had come and and that it was really going to have the impact that it's that it's clearly had. Okay, one of the first lines that we had from Australia was, it was called Edit. And there was a woman, Sharon Stoyer-Lynum, who had been the editor of Vogue Australia. And she had left publishing and started her, this textile line, and it was all digital. And it was like, she had this one photograph that it was, I mean, this one fabric that was like a photograph of like jewel boxes at a, like at a street fair, you know, just these jumbles of stones and gaudy brooches and all of this stuff.

27:06And it was fantastic. And it was so cool. We're like, wait, you made a fabric out of this? And then she had one that was like this topiary garden that maybe had like 35 different colors of green in it. And it was, and they were so beautiful and so crisp. And, you know, she knew a lot about photography and she really, she was the first one that I really thought, wow, this is a really cool process. So, um, that was in 2009. And once it sort of started hitting, you know, there were a lot of people, I think who, who were doing things like, oh, let me go get this antique textile and just take a photograph of it and, you know, print that.

27:47And it's not as simple as that. So do you think in a way that the that the digital printing makes make some of the other things like block printing, like some of the other different applications stand out even more? So great digital printing. It's obviously had this this big moment, but you look at some other ways of doing it and you're reminded of what they can do? What block printing can do? What screen printing can do? Yeah. I mean, I think it's an expanded toolbox. I mean, I think there's definitely room for all the processes and they all have different quirks and they all have different abilities.

28:28I think that as traditional screen printing uses quite a lot of water, so it's not the most environmentally friendly of all. they make great strides in digital there are some amazing new printers that use just tiny amounts of water and they set them in different ways our block printer as um she had the choice of using one of two facilities one is in um one of her facilities is in jaipur and one is in delhi and the one in delhi has a machine that basically bakes in the pigments and so she also uses very little water, which is great. Because, I mean, it's, you know, listen, I hope we're past the days when, you know, there's a street in Avignon that when they used to make all the robes for when the popes were in Avignon, they had all of these like really heavy purples and reds and all that.

29:23I mean, the street, the marble in the street was stained the color of these robes, these And it's like, oh my gosh, that's, and it's lasted for hundreds of years now. It's still there. Yeah. So we've cleaned up the process. Yeah, we've cleaned up a bit. So, and I think we keep making things that you can print to order. They are more eco-friendly because you're not sitting with hundreds of yards sitting on a shelf somewhere that might end up in landfill someday that you're printing what you need. Well, and also, exactly. And you don't have to write off a bunch of inventory over time because you don't have don't have that inventory.