Susan Ferrier on finding the strength to start her own firm after 18 years of acclaim at someone else's

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Susan Ferrier. Susan's career is somewhat unique in that she reached a claim working for another firm, in this case, architect Bobby McAlpin. Susan spent nearly 20 years there, winning awards and building the design side of the business into a powerhouse. In 2018, she finally went out on her own and has quickly built up an impressive firm, collaborating with Baker on a collection and creating rich, layered interiors inspired by a global palette.

0:50I spoke with Susan about how rising industry costs have made it harder to do great work, how she uses AI, and why her secret to success is being fortunate, prepared, and always saying yes.

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3:06explored some different avenues before coming to design. And I wonder what your answer to that question would be. Well, I couldn't have stayed in any of the things that I had tried. Because I was on about a 10-month rotation. About 10 months in, I have a complete and utter career change. Well, so, and what brought that about? Well, usually three months into it, I had already gone as high as I could go within the organization. It was a regular pattern. If I was hired to answer the phone, three months later, I was managing the office. Right. And then 10 months later, I was, I've gone as far as I can go.

3:47This is boring. I'm going to move on to the next thing. So once I landed in design and made that big decision, you know, 35 years later, here I am. Well, so what were some of the things that you tried that only lasted between three months and 10 months? Well, waiting tables and bartending at various establishments. All right. I managed a temporary agency. Of course, managing a pizza restaurant is where I met my husband. And then, of course, there was the infertility clinic that I was actually quite well suited for. Tell me about that. Well, it was really interesting because it really spoke to the side of me that wanted to help people and also interested in science.

4:41So I liked the fact that I worked with an andrologist who is a sperm expert, in case you guys didn't know. Thank you for educating us about that word, because I'm guessing many in the listening audience didn't know what an andrologist was. including myself. Yes. And he would bring me into the lab and I would look through the microscope and I just found it fascinating. I got to talk to people because I was managing the office, you know, 10 months in, I was managing the office because I was hired to manage the phone. She's running the place. Right. And I had to talk to the couples about their insurance coverage and how they were going to pay for things.

5:20So there's an awful lot of problem solving and there was a level of intimacy. And I learned a great deal about how people's hearts are attached to their wallets. Interesting. Even though it should have been a black and white or cut and dry conversation, it always turned very emotional and people's vulnerabilities surfaced. It helped me, I think in design, it informed how I talk to people about what things will cost. So the infertility clinic, and it sounds like you were forming a lot of intimate relationships with people, but that was another one where you reached a ceiling of sorts. It's very draining and it's not as creative as I needed it to be.

6:13I would have had to have gone back to school and gotten a degree. And of course, at that point, I thought if I'm going to go back to school, I should go back to school for something that I'm going to enjoy. Was interior design a world that you had in any way been exposed to or had an image in your head of what that might look like? You know, I really didn't know what it was going to be like. I just knew that I was really interested in it and I'm very visual and it fed me. And I always was, I always felt good and happy, resting my eyes on things that were of great beauty and actually balance. It was never just one thing.

6:58It was a collection of things. It was either that or art history. Okay. And I felt like art history was going to put me in a more academic world. And not that I have a problem with academia. It's just that I don't know if I have the personality to manage that. I think I would want things to be a little bit more active and people-oriented. So was it challenging for you to come back to school after trying? And you've talked in the past about all of these things being failures or not working, but it doesn't sound, is that looking back how you see it or have you rethought that? Have you reframed that since that time?

7:45I think they were steps in the process so that when I finally made the decision to go into design, it was just an easier move to make. I didn't come from a house, a background that necessarily thought going into the arts was going to be lucrative and that I would never be able to take care of myself. So it was like a last resort. Well, and so, I mean, in the house that you came from, was there any expressed desire for what you were going to become or do or be? Was there anybody trying to mold or shape your thinking about that? Yeah, I think that definitely your choices were doctor, lawyer or engineer.

8:32Those were the choices. You know, I played the violin when I was in high school and I was pretty good at it. But as I got into my senior year and, you know, I thought, well, is Juilliard, you know, a place that I should try to get into? Is that something that I don't think I was supported in that direction? Because, again, it's creative. And so at the very tail end of my short-lived career, that was kind of shut down as well. So definitely. And I think it just it comes all all this comes out of fear. your parents just want you to be able to take care of yourself. So then you said, well, I'll show you.

9:13I'm going to get a fine arts degree instead. I struggled anyway. Turns out, did I take an easier path? I'm not sure. Oh, God. I'm going to tell you, when I finally landed in a room full of designers at an event, I felt like I had met my people. Okay. Well, so tell me about that. So when did that happen for you? I was interning at a design firm and I was at the High Museum of Art and it was some kind of a reception and it was all these interior designers. And I just remember for one of the very first times in my adult life feeling completely comfortable with everybody in the room. We were all talking about the same things.

9:58We were all attracted to the same things. I understood the short attention spans. And I was not bored, you know, with any of the conversations. And I thought, wow, you know, who are these people? These are my people. Who are they and what do they do for a living? But that gave you, it sounds like it gave you a sense of clarity, maybe, that you were on the right path, that you were pursuing the right thing for you? It helps relieve the doubt. You know, whenever you're going forward and you're a young person and you always wonder, oh, should I, would I, would I, could I, you know, kind of thing.

10:39It helped relieve some of that doubt and it only made me pursue the direction I was going into much stronger. And I think at that point in time, I then realized that I needed to position myself and be prepared for anything, any opportunity that came my way. And somebody asked me, would you like to come and work part-time at our firm? And I said, yes. He goes, would you like to know anything about our firm? And I said, no.

11:14And who was that? That was Fred Brooks. He used to have a firm in Atlanta, and it was my very first interior design job. It was an internship that turned into a design position that then turned into a project management role in their company really very quickly. And it was the job that I had before I accepted a position with Bobby McAlpin's firm. So honestly, I only really worked as a straight employee once in design. And then when I joined Bobby's team at McAlpin, I think it was maybe six or seven months into it that I was offered a path to partnership. You know, it was like, I don't want to call it the golden age of design, but it wasn't a time.

12:17But, you know, It was a good time. It wasn't a time where if you had a background in anything other than interior design that could help you. As interior designers really, come on, we're not known for being great business people. So I think when somebody sees that you have different experiences that are going to make you a great fit, I think those opportunities, like I said, being prepared, I think those opportunities arise. Well, so that's interesting. So what do you think they saw in you or what did you reveal about your knowledge or expertise that made them realize that you were more than just a good designer?

12:59Well, you know, first, of course, it starts with talent and then it rolls into being able to close the deal, being able to say you're going to do something and then do it. So what was the word? Oh, Suzanne Kassler once said to me, Susan, we're capable. That's one of our best qualities. And that's why things have happened for us the way they've happened for a few people in design. And it has to do with being capable. And I think that I brought capability. So interesting. So I mean, and as you say, there were lots of iterations of what is known today as McElpin. But I mean, it sounds as if they they had an eye on you pretty, pretty early on and you get on the on the partner track and and how remarkable and and end up staying there for for many, many years, despite it not being the most easy to get to office, if I recall, geographically.

13:57Yeah, well, and that's another thing. When Bobby wanted to move the practice to a different city, I said, yes, I went home. I talked to my husband. We would figure it out. You know, a lot of other people did say no, but I said yes. I put myself on that path. And we started off in Montgomery, Alabama, but soon after I joined, we ended up opening offices in Nashville, Tennessee. So for three or four years, at least, I was in my car on Mondays and Fridays driving back and forth between Atlanta and Nashville. And I had an apartment in Nashville that I stayed in during the week. And then because the practice was based kind of nationally, after a while, I said, well, I've got to drive back to Atlanta to catch a plane to fly to this other location.

14:53So why don't I just work out of Atlanta? Because the airport was here. And that's when I opened up an Atlanta office. Right. And we were strong enough, I think, as a firm that it could support that. I mean, it did support that. And you were the one that was really building the interior design side of the business. Yeah. I was working on interiors, and Ray was also working on interiors in Nashville. Ray Booth, exactly. Yes. So I would say that we both worked very hard to develop that part of the business. And we should say, I mean, and again, Susan, for listeners who might not be familiar with the remarkable Bobby McAlpin and you and Ray, I mean, and the work that everyone at that firm was doing.

15:47But there was something really magical about Bobby and so many people refer to him as sort of a poet when it comes to architecture and how he both talks about it and thinks about it. What was it like working with him? And I wonder what you learned, took away, what was part of all of that for you? I think one of the great things about him was he was never threatened by the power that a great interior brings into a space. I think that we also fed on each other when it came to design. You know, I don't like to use the word no. And he would make a suggestion and I would go, yes, and let's do this.

16:36Or I would make a suggestion and he goes, oh, my God, that's great. And we can change that. I mean, so it was very nice to collaborate the way we did. It was a great evolutionary step that, you know, brought me to who I am right now. I can say that I'm fortunate to be a person on this planet that has been able to pursue maybe one of the reasons why they are here. I feel very self-actualized in design. So when you think about that and you talk about your purpose, what do you think your purpose is as related to what you were just describing? I think that if your interior spaces evoke other senses, besides just being visual, I think that then you kind of transcend being a great shopper.

17:37Which is sometimes how designers are compartmentalized. I have good taste and I know how to shop. And it's really all about the relationship, not only of the pieces that are in the room and the textures that are in the room, but also the relationship that you are striking between the people that you're doing it for, your client, the homeowners, the resident. You want to make sure that you're elevating their experience. You know, interiors should be, you know, if you're doing it well, it should be healing, it should be calming, you know, it should give you some kind of peace inside. You know, if you want to be agitated by your environment, you should go to a nightclub.

18:24But I think that... But that shouldn't be your home environment. I just think that everybody has their purpose. And so much of what we do in our daily lives out in the world knocks us off center. but it's nice to be able to come back to a place that recenters you and reminds you of who you are and hopefully that you're safe and loved. You know, some interiors have a little bit of a sense of humor to them. They make you laugh. They make you think. I think they can do anything. They just don't have to be pretty. You mean they can be so much more. They can be pretty and they can do all of these other things.

19:03They can.

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19:53so often we we undersell the work that interior designers do and you touched on it earlier sometimes people oh her work is beautiful oh well that's very nice but did you also know that her work can calm you or soothe you or make you feel loved imagine coming home and having a room make you feel that somebody loves you. I mean, that's such a gift. Well, your interior designer loves you. At the very least, if your interior designer loves you, they're going to do a really great job for you. Yes, yes. Which is why you want to be nicer to them, I think, than often some clients are, right? I feel like some clients don't get the love thing.

20:38We're just trying to love you more and better. We can't possibly work with that budget. Exactly. We need more love to make this work better. Well, it has to do with generosity. I think that you have to have a generous spirit and you want to give it a multi-level experience in a room and not just a quick flash or the surface. You want to be able to sit in a space for a while and have your attention drawn to things that you may not have noticed at first. I want to come back to this discussion, but I want to talk a little bit about, so we said earlier, 20 years moving around, opening offices, growing this amazing firm, and you decide it's time for you to go out on your own.

21:31I decided it was time for me to be recognized. When you work so well with other people and you're so in it, I didn't want to lose myself, my individuality. So it's the next step. It is the next step in the evolution of your art form, of your capabilities, in design, the independence. I don't want to be a failure to launch.

22:02I don't want to be a failure to launch. Well, so did you feel, I mean, you were a partner in the firm. Did you feel as if there wasn't enough sufficient recognition of you and the work that you were doing? Well, it wasn't necessarily, you know, it's always recognition. You want to be recognized. But it's also you get to be a lot more agile. and when it's just your feet rather than a whole group of people that you had to move, turn their head to look in a certain direction. Sometimes you just get too big and you can't get as much accomplished when there's just too many voices. It's like a committee versus an individual.

22:52And I think we can all agree that decisions based on committee sometimes aren't as good as decisions that are made by one or two people. But like I said, it's the next step in my development to be independent and believe in what I do, have the confidence to execute it. I believe in what I do. I've never tread water. And so I wanted to grow. And I thought, they could all take care of themselves. They didn't need me there. This firm will be fine. I'll be fine. They don't need me. They don't need me. I'm going to go out and grow. They won't even notice. So was this a long time that you were thinking about this?

23:35Was this a big, heavy debate going on for you for a while? Of course it was. Of course it was. It was not a light decision. And I think that I would not be considered a very patient person, but when it comes to the really big stuff, I think I like to have a lot of runway and I like to slow play something, because I think there's a part of me that's conservative like that. I don't want to, in my wake, damage. So I think that it was a very, you talk yourself into things, you talk yourself out of things. I think it was a very long time. and it was a hard decision. It was really hard. It was scary.

24:24When you make a decision like that, you have to know that I could fail and I have to be okay with me failing. And I can only say now after seven years, it was the right decision for me. I think it was the right decision for everybody. Maybe it opened opportunity up for others. Maybe it didn't, but maybe it was a lot of things, but at its highest level, if you're going to think about it in grace at its highest level. It is the natural next step for a developing human being that has a voice and has talent and wants to, again, self-actualize and be who they can be and never wonder. And I'm going to tell you right now, I couldn't be who I am right now without all of that and all my experiences.

25:14But they should be proud. I was able to, take it and turn it into something, you know, and do some beautiful work. And look what they had such a huge role in helping to turn out, right? Yeah, I'm not, I don't ever want to diminish that experience. So much good came out of it. So much beauty came out of it. It was great. But you know, you get bored doing things the same way all the time. I mean, you want to experiment a little, you know, you want your eyes to have a little bit more of a twinkle in them, maybe. Well, I'm so glad that you're talking about it in this way because so many people struggle with this decision, going out on their own or setting up their own shop or leaving a firm where they've been for a long time and like you have found great success and learned a great deal.

26:09And just to wrap this up, I mean, you go and I assume you have a conversation with with bobby and and is it a lot of back and forth is it an emotional is it a drama no i i don't think it was a drama you know i think that the drama came from the people that were one or two steps or degrees away from that conversation i think the drama came from the smaller players i see the peanut gallery well i don't want it They don't think of themselves as peanuts. They think of themselves as cashews. Right. Exotic Brazilian nuts. Right. They're much more sophisticated. But I think that I don't think that it was dramatic.

26:57I mean, there was sadness. There was confusion. There was, you know, there's always going to be that uncomfortable moments. But, you know, it's what happens in the years afterwards that people should look at and examine. You know, I have no reason to not look them all in the eye, straight in the eye, you know? So there's, it definitely comes later in dribs and drabs, any drama. And I think that it probably happened like that because it was time. You think things are forever, but sometimes forever is lazy. You know, sometimes you have to kind of push. but you know i think that there's a lot of things that i'm doing now that i never could have done you know uh if i had stayed there like what what are you able to do now that you you couldn't well i think that when an opportunity uh came my way for the collaboration with baker furniture i have a furniture line that's just come out this year it was presented at market I think that one of the really great and rewarding things about that is that it is solely me.

28:13And there was never any consulting anybody. Well, what do you think about the leg of this chair? Kind of a thing. It was a hundred percent. There was no design by committee? No. But, you know, I think it was a really good exercise for me. I'm sure. Because it was like, I mean, how many people get to walk into huge spaces and every single thing came out of their head or through their hand that is in that space? You know, it was like a legacy thing. It was very rewarding. It was a great collaboration. You know, I think that that was something that would have been maybe watered down, shared, divided up.

28:56You know, those kinds of things kind of happen. And then you just don't get the pure voice, you know, that pure voice. You know, I had some experiences that led me to believe that that was this. If I wanted to do anything else, this is probably the best way to get the purest tone out there in the world. You know, I think that if you are put on this earth and you don't do what you were put on this earth to do. and I've probably said this before too, I feel like that is one of the great sins. I feel like that is a sin. I would give that advice to any person in any field. You know, are you doing the best that you can do?

29:40Does it resonate in your heart? And are you making a difference with your work or with your creation out in the world? I've been very fortunate. I've been really fortunate and I'm very grateful, very grateful. Susan, I want to come back. I want to ask you about how you thought about setting up your own firm when you finally did and what notions you had about what you wanted the firm to feel like and both the scale and size of it and the kinds of projects. But I especially want to come back to an earlier part of the conversation where you talked, even before you were in design, you talked about having a heightened sensitivity towards people's money relationship.

30:33One of the things that seems so challenging about our industry is having money conversations, talking about how much designers charge and the way that they charge and what the contracts say. And I imagine you might have some opinions there, Susan. Well, I think one of the defining business principles that I established was complete transparency. So there are no hidden charges. I try to be honest upfront. And sometimes I don't get projects because I'm too honest upfront. About how much it's going to cost? I tell them how much it's going to cost. They think, oh, she's really expensive. Then they hire somebody else.