Susana Simonpietri of Chango wants to break the cycle of toxic workplaces

28:02Exactly. And then I was bitching left and right. And my husband, Josh, who's my sort of sage and pious, I sit with him and we brainstorm things. He was like, Susanna, what are you doing? Like, what are we doing here? You do know that like, they're not going to change. They're not going to change. It's a generational thing. But you know what you could do? You could change. If you change and you figure out how to work with them, then maybe you will be happy and you'll get what you want out of the equation, you know? And I just got out of the habit of doing that and I started looking at them for what they were and trying to figure out, okay, yeah, I just sort of like decided I was going to change the way that I approach them.

28:50And with them, for me, it's more like about encouraging them and saying to them that I see an incredible amount of potential in them and that all they have to do is prove to me that I'm right. That's basically the way I work with my team. When you were starting your own firm, I was curious, again, thinking about how all of these different experiences impacted you. when you were leaving Zef at the time, it was, if I recall, during the financial crisis, and there were all these rounds of layoffs, and the office had gotten quite big at one point, I think it was 75 people, and then suddenly rounds of layoffs and getting down to very few people at one point.

29:37You sort of put yourself forward and said, you know what, let me be part of the next round of layoffs because I'm going to go off and do my own thing, it sounds like. Tell me a little bit about that time and how it impacted your thinking about how you would run your own firm. I learned a lot during that time in that I think it stamped me knowing that I was going to really stick to the residential side of things instead of going into commercial. When I was working for, I actually saw that transition at B &O too, because when he started picking up commercial projects, it was like an urgent need to hire because those projects require like a large amount of staffing, but the billing is not that good for those projects.

30:25So you're like staffing really large because you have this idea of like, I want to do things that people can like go into. And it's like, you know, it's obviously it caters to your ego to do commercial because you can go for drinks and like bring your family over, which you're not doing residential, you know? But when I left Mark's office, he had gone from 30 people, I think, when I started, to over 75, I think. And they had like three floors of the building. I mean, it was like, and when the crisis happened, the projects that he had that were residential, they didn't go away. It was the commercial ones that were put on hold.

31:07So if he had been at a smaller size doing residential work only, he wouldn't have been hit by the crisis as much as he was. So in my head, I was like, I'm going to use that. I'm just going to stick to that. Even though over time we've been invited to do some commercial work, I just haven't taken the plunge to do it because I worry that it's a little too fickle. And I wouldn't even know how to start billing for it. And from what I've understood over time, the building is just not as lucrative, I guess, I should say. So I decided to just sort of stay on the realm of the residential. And I really enjoy it.

31:47I like doing homes for people. Part of my biggest input in projects, other than the actual, you know, the physical, like how is it going to look and the general vibe that we're going for, et cetera, as a group, is the psychology that goes behind the whole thing and like working through issues with clients. And it's something that I really enjoy. And I think you lose that when you're doing commercial work. So I'm not really that interested. Despite Pratt's best efforts to shake residential.

32:21Well, I'm curious how the financial crisis and watching that firm, as you say, scale up and then have to scale down, how that made you, because it sounds like when you first went out on your own, you stayed very, very small. And by small, I mean you for quite some time. When I went off on my own, I went off and I had like a couple of great projects. I had a house in the Hamptons on Ocean Ave, like a block away from Main Beach. I had a restaurant in the city that I did for friends. And I was like, oh my God, this is going to be amazing. I'm going to start my own firm and it's going to be, you know, like I'm already having all of it.

33:04Yeah. That lasted no time. Then everything went away. And I was like, okay, now where am I going to get projects? And I started looking more, like I was lifting rocks to try to figure out where my next project was going to come from. And I had to eat humble pie, but realistically speaking, it was probably the best thing that could have happened to me because when you leave an office, you probably don't have your own style. Like you are an aggregate of all of your offices that you have worked for before you really fine tune your voice. And that voice really ends up coming out of the, it's the product of work, right?

33:42You do enough work and then you develop your own voice. So I got to do a lot of little projects that allowed me to try a lot of different things until I felt like I just saw myself in the work. Like I feel like this is more my style. So I did a lot of little projects and I stayed very small and then things started picking up and we started, you know, publishing work and having more visibility online. And then I hired my first person. And then that, you know, when that person was too busy, then I went on to the next person and so on and so forth. And now we've grown. We have a team that's around 30, which is not bad for an interior design firm, I think, in New York.

34:23And we only hire when it becomes absolutely apparent to everyone that we are not able to do the work without having that extra person. It's funny how many of your colleagues will talk to me about, I only want to have 10 people. I I never want to get big like that. It's too much managing. It's too much all the issues and everyone's problems. And I'm sure it must be that way for you, too. So my question is, how do you deal with it? And tell me the secret. If you want to be a micromanager and you want to be the center of every decision, you cannot grow. You cannot because you have to start letting go of certain things.

35:09So for me, it was more like I replaced my pride, right? So instead of it being like, I need to be an all hands, like omnipresent in my projects or my whatever, and sort of hover over everyone. Instead, I say, okay, my pride comes from bringing the best possible team of creatives, making sure they're doing the most incredible work that they thought they could possibly do, inspiring them to doing that work, and then being their mentor and being there for them so that they can come and talk to me through their problems and through their issues. And we brainstorm like, oh, I would do this, or I would attack it this way, or maybe talk to this other person.

35:49And as a collaborative, we're able to do a lot more than we are individually. And one thing that I have found to be deeply beautiful in the process of developing a larger your office is that I am 100 trillion percent convinced that the work that we are doing now is the best work we've ever done and that I would never be able to do as complicated of work and as rich and as deep on my own or with a small team. It's the combination of all of these beautiful individuals coming together and the incredible pool of talent and sort of sounding boards that we have. Like, oh, I know this person. Like, we'll have our general meetings once in a while and we share our projects that we're doing.

36:41And we're like, oh, oh, I know you should do X, Y. And like people, you know, everybody comes in with fresh ideas and sources and stuff like that for things. And that would not happen if I had a small office. That just, it just wouldn't. It's part of the nature of the beast so while having a bigger office could be in a lot of ways i'm sure a nightmare we've figured out or we're trying to still figure out how to turn it into a positive on a daily basis and i'm enjoying it well and you and you mentioned earlier your your your sage husband josh yes who who plays a a very specific role and and often very different than your role it sounds like yes very different we're like completely different departments let's say he is in the incoming uh you know like client when clients come in um he's one uh there's a we have a department of three that take those including him um and do all the preliminary interviews etc of people and you know getting their information and uh explaining the way we work and then he also deals with the contracts and the finance aspect and anything legal to attorneys and all that good stuff that I, he likes to say, as I'm sure a lot of husbands that work in the industry with their wives say, he likes to keep everything that would not let me be creative away from me.

38:01Like he just allows me to stay creative. And I laugh and I say that's not true because, you know, like obviously I'm still dealing with a lot of stuff, but I think it's a very romantic and beautiful thing. So I'll let him have it. I love that he wants to do that for you, right? I mean, the intention alone, I think, gets them some cred. It is interesting how often designers lament the fact that so little of their time gets to be creative and so much of their time is managing or just juggling, right? All the demands. Yeah, I know. But like, so I know that. But for example, I'm going to give you a beautiful example.

38:39I step into a meeting, right? And we're talking about like you know because I still oversee the project so they're showing me everything and I'll look through it in the stages before it gets presented to the client and then they're showing me these incredible rooms these incredible ideas and I go whoa I love it but what if we did this other thing and this other thing you know so the project is already at like 80 and I'm able to take it to 100 in my view anyway some people might think it's not but I think it's 100 and then And I'm able to do that because they've been doing all of the other work, all of the hard work before I get to that point.

39:19Right. If I was the one taxed with taking it to 80, I would never get to 100. Right. Right. So you get pleasure. I get a lot of pleasure in that kind of thing. I've become more of an editor in my office. I'm like, what's the vibe and where are we going and what are you know? And it's fun for me. And that's such an important aspect in all of this, especially in part because projects are taking so much longer. They seem like, well, they don't seem like, they are much more expensive. And that is often challenging for clients to digest. Right? And that seems as though it's one of the hardest things today to manage.

40:02You know, yes. Sigh. Yes. Yes, sure. But we try to go into our projects with a set idea of what things are going to cost, at least on the interior side when we start. So we'll price out projects on square footage ranges. And then that keeps us to a certain extent protected on the client side of their frustration when things increase. Construction is just so much harder to do that with, you know. And I think people have gotten to the point where they just are expecting it. They know it's going to happen. So there's not, I don't know, I'm not finding it that hard to navigate with clients. because they're hearing from everybody that they know that like just brace because it's gonna suck you know and so they're hearing from their friends oh yeah it's really expensive and it's gonna take a long time and right so so their friends should just keep calling them and telling them that every day so that when i have to tell them they'll be like yeah yeah you're you're late to the party one of the things it it sounded like you had become known for was these was these sort of all day meetings with presentations to clients.

41:18And I'm curious about how that really works. And if this conversation is part of that, do you keep peppering the conversation with, and did I mention it's going to take a long time and that things are expensive? Well, I certainly make it funny. I am the comic relief of every meeting I'm in, because I can't sit still in a room and not laugh for a while. So I definitely do that part. But I I think we talk about timelines with the clients and it's a general, like, yes, we set expectations from the beginning. And that's a huge part Josh's job when he gets on the calls with clients. It's like, you know, a project that's going to take, you know, for interiors, you know, a year and a half or whatever, you know, like timeline wise.

42:00So that people go into it already knowing what they're going to be seeing. And with construction, we usually can anticipate relatively early on. Like, you know, this project is going to be two years or two and a half years of construction and we'll start saying it to the client from early on. But I don't think that it's that hard to sell them on any of this because ultimately they don't have a choice, you know. So, like, you could talk about it until the cows come home or whatever the expression is. But, like, it's just going to be what it is, you know. Right. And that's kind of my attitude with them.

42:32I'm like, we can VE things and we can change things and we can, like, you know. And ultimately, most clients, they don't want to value engineer their homes. Because what are they going to value engineer? So I won't have a Mitsubishi system. I'll have a Daikon air conditioner system. Fine. But I'm not going to lose the stones that I want. And I'm not going to lose the finishes that I want. Because I will lament that later. Because I didn't want to put in whatever amount. Let's say it's a couple hundred thousand dollars over decisions that you're going to have to live with for the next 20 whatever years.

43:04like so it's it's sort of an it's a little bit of a non-issue to an extent you know i mean i guess it's not a non-issue it's a big issue it's a big issue but it sounds as though i mean a you talk about it pretty directly with with people and and it sounds like they're getting the same feedback from their from their friends who are also doing projects like this and so they're just being being told what the reality is. What I'm curious about with your presentation meetings is that some designers will tell me, okay, my client has half an hour of an attention span max. And so I've got to quickly show them what I want them to sign off on and then let them go.

43:45But you try and book, if I recall, you try and like really have them block out five hours worth of time and say, I'm going to show you like as much as I possibly can in this, in this meeting. Yes. And yes, yes, and yes, and yes, and no. So we have, we have to read our clients, like that's a huge part of design, right? And the great majority of our clients and the way that we cater our work, or the type of clients that we cater to, we have had a lot of clients who are very well educated, very intelligent, highly, highly functioning individuals. who are very busy and they want to live really well.

44:30They come to us because they love the work that we do. And they say, I just want you to make this world for me. So can you just show me what that's going to look like? And I'll sign off and then you go, you know, and that's the ideal kind of client for that, like powwow meeting, which by the way, sometimes can be eight hours long. And like at the end of that, everybody's drinking because I hope, I mean, I, yeah, that's intense. So they, you know, I've had clients, they walk away from a presentation and they've made decisions on pretty much everything. And the last thing we have to do is just art and final accessories and that kind of thing.

45:03And so the way that we do it, we curate the collection. So we'll say like scheme A, scheme B choices, right, for each room. And then there's extra items to pick from. So like for the chairs, there's a couple more chairs. There's a couple in case they want to mix and match because they didn't like something in the schemes. And the reason why we do that is that we don't want the goose to be cooked when the client gets there and there's something that they don't like. Like we want to we want to do this. Right. Like we want to make decisions. And we find that most people do very well with that system because they ultimately we all we all should want the same thing.

45:37Right. Would they want to have their house done? They want to like and they they know that they're working with a creative firm that they trust. so why why would the choices be bad you know like so there's no no too much questioning like is there more out there can i see more there are clients that want to see more and there are a lot of clients not a lot but there are some clients that also want to try everything out so they want to sit on everything and they want to when you're doing a 20 000 or a 15 000 square foot house and you want to try everything they don't realize what that means and that it's a full-time job to try everything for a house like that, right?

46:15So they often come in and say, oh, I think I want to see more choices for X, Y. And then you start doing those meetings like on 30 minute hour intervals on the phone and then going to showrooms and meeting with them and doing, and then very quickly within a couple of months, they realize that that's crazy and that it's just not, it's going to occupy too much of their time and that they just have to take a step back and really trust the process. And then you just keep going with processes we would have if we had picked everything at the beginning. But you have to let them go through that. You have to, if people want to go through that process.

46:54And if they actually want to try everything in the house and like the project will take 17 years, like we can walk you through that. But I just wouldn't want to advise you to use your money that way because it seems like it's not great.

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47:58The issue of how much things are costing, particularly new construction, has made a lot of people wonder if, do I need to build something here in the U.S.? Can I look abroad and find a way to do it for a lot less? And it sounded as though that had come up in your world. Yeah. I mean, I think that people are starting to feel like the prices coming in for construction are astronomical. And I mean, we were pricing out a project the other day and the project was supposed to be a$20 million construction project. and then you know like preliminary numbers came in at 50 you're kidding 50 it was insane and so we had to scale back and the client which i thought was very interesting and this is happening more and more was like what am i doing why am i building a enormous house like do i really need all these rooms do i need all this space you know and so we went back and said let's start getting this scaled down so that you can still build the house you want but like it's a reasonable amount of money or whatever i mean it's not necessarily a reasonable amount of money you know to an extent a smaller amount of money if nothing else and then we ended up with the house that's like half or less than the square footage that they originally came in thinking they needed and i think that we're seeing more and more of that sort of like do i need this like enormous thing with like bowling and like you know like really what am i doing what can i go out to bowl do i need to be able to bowl in my home like do you need a cavernous basement with like a enormous movie theater probably not you know like so people are starting to build in a more considerate way i think or more like scaled way let's say and i i think we're gonna see more and more of that.

49:51And I find that this has been a trend for a long time now. We've been very fortunate to work with some of the wealthiest families in the US. And I find that the younger generations of those families actually want to build smaller and more quiet homes for themselves. They don't have any desire to show anyone what they have in the bank through their house. Interesting. And how are people finding you? And how, I mean, what do you find is the channel that is working most successfully to bring people to you? Social media is huge for us. And Pinterest is very big for us, too. When I was younger, I remember, this is Josh again.

50:31He was like, you have to document your projects really well. Like, we need to invest money on photographers and, like, really good photographers, really good styling and doing all of that. And that is a huge investment. I mean, photo shoots, if you're doing a non-local photo shoot, I mean, between photo and video, you can spend$50 ,000 on a photo shoot, which is, for most people, it's insane, right? But that's your asset after you're done with the project, right? So part of that, if you're doing commercial work, it would be different. But because you're doing residential, it's on you. So with that photography in hand, we're able to use it to post it both on our website, But Pinterest, Pinterest is a huge lead for us because people find that, you know, people tend to do Pinterest a lot when they're thinking of building a house and getting inspired.

51:19And then a lot of times people will end up with a lot of images of our work on their Pinterest boards. And they're like, they realize after a while that they all come from the same place. And they're like, well, I should just go to this designer, you know. So that's one way they come in. And another way that they come in is through Instagram. Instagram is huge for us. So I started it a long time ago on my own. And now that it's grown, we have someone that helps manage it full time. And I'm on it on a daily basis as well. But it's a huge driver of clients from all over the US. So this is an interesting story.

51:54Instagram, just to prove how it works, we have a client who is a very, very high, high, high, high executive for humongous company. very, you know, and he found us through Instagram and DMed us through Instagram. And that's how we got in touch. And a lot of our clients have come through that way. So it's not through recommendation. It's not through, they just see that you're a human being, that you look like a nice person that you, you know, like, cause you, it's a very interesting platform. You get to show your work, but you also get to show your culture, which is very big. If you're, if you're in the business of selling design to nice people, then showing that you have a work culture that's of nice people is very important.

52:40So for me, I've used it to my advantage and it's a driver to get good clients in. And it has allowed me to have my work viewed by people that I would have never in my life thought knew or had any access to me and my world. So it's incredible. How have Josh and his team figured out how to screen out the, I mean, hopefully not the Jeffrey Epstein's and the Sean Combs clients like you had in your past life? Jeffrey Epstein would have never been able to work with us because he would have not gotten past the first questions. So one of the things that we do, and this is annoying to a lot of people, but like we have a inquiry form on our website.

53:27So people, when they try to get in touch with us, they have to fill out this whole thing. Like that's the first sort of weeding process. You know, like a person that doesn't even want to fill a form and just says like, my budget is$10 million, call me. like I don't know like I might call you but I also right I'm gonna give you five minutes to see what your vibe is because I don't really want your money that badly I want to be happy you know um but we do that and then like if the project sounds good and like all the all the things work out they also do a little bit of a back like they'll find the name of the person and see what they're all about and if they've been in prison well okay maybe not you know like it's like unless your Martha Stewart, but, you know, there's like a lot of things there that you can find out about people from the very beginning.

54:12And then they get on the phone with them and start, you know, explaining the way we work and see how patient they are with listening to that process. And then we, the way we work is not for everyone. So that weeds out a lot of people. Some people just want to work with one designer or two designers and go see everything. And like, they want the principal to be their person all the time, which is impossible. It would be impossible for me, nor would I want to. So yeah, they work that way with people. And then once they feel like the person is a good fit, they present the project to me and my team.

54:44And they're like, here's the general project. Here's the general budget that they're looking to spend with our guidance. We usually say like, these are the ranges. And here's the bio that they're very cute. They bring me like a whole sheet with pictures of the couple and the family if they're available and like their backgrounds a little bit and like where do they study? Like, you know, sort of like cute bio on them. And then we meet the client, the potential client after that ultimately. And I mean, some people actually go into contract right away without ever meeting me, which I find to be fascinating.

55:16But yeah, we start working with them if we like them and we go from there. Are your clients, I'm thinking about everything that's sort of going on in the news at the moment? Are they holding back or anxious about the elections coming up? Or have interest rates had a meaningful impact on clients or the housing market? What sort of comes to mind? I think that every time there's an election, I've noticed a pattern. We always see a huge dip of new projects coming in around election years. I knew it was going to happen because it happened last time too. So I was predicting it. So there's definitely been a pause in that sense.

55:54I have a feeling that once the election, like once we get past it, regardless of the outcome, people are going to pick up speed again. I just don't know why the pause. I don't think I'm wealthy enough to be clued into the reasons why people do that. But I think that the interest rate thing is an interesting conversation. I don't know. I guess it does affect people because a lot of clients, even if they're very wealthy, they would rather not have their liquid use. So they do sometimes rely on mortgages. And I would assume that that has something to do with the fact that things are moving slower.

56:32I have noticed that a lot of people are talking more about international investments rather than investing in the US because construction costs aren't going to be going down that well anytime soon. And I think that people are like, well, then what about Mexico? And what about like, you know, there's like other places we could have a house, you know? And I mean, when you think about it, if these are clients, like if you're getting on a jet to fly to Miami, let's say, like, what does it change if you're getting a few hours further, And you can save yourself 40 % of your investment, if not more, on another house in a different location.

57:17So I have started hearing a lot of talk of projects more internationally driven, which I have my passport ready and I'm available for hire for international operations. Yeah. Okay. Good to know. Well, it's interesting because a lot has been made of Mexico and all the challenges that we've had with shipping and delays and everything. And the port strike recently made people think, oh, maybe we should be getting more from Mexico and maybe we should be closer partners with parts of Latin America than we have been in the past. I guess it depends on which way the wind blows with the election, because you know what's going to happen in one way.

57:59Yes. And in another way, definitely no. So I don't know. Is it challenging navigating clients' political ideologies sometimes? I don't know. I think most of our clients are liberals. So no, it's not. And I'm pretty open about my political inclination. I mean, I personally was like very hurt by the presidency of Trump. And like I experienced racism like really, really for the first time during his presidency, because a lot of people felt like it was OK. to openly express their racism against Latin Americans or Spanish speakers. And I, for the first time in my life or my adult life, I got it in person from people.

58:47Like when I would go to projects we were doing upstate and that kind of thing, like little towns. And that was really bad. That was a really bad time. So I am very anti. I am very anti that. Well, I think being anti-racism is a pretty good position to take. I hope so. I hope that everyone can get behind that idea. I'm wondering in moving off of that, obviously everyone's very anxious about the election for a host of different reasons and we'll see what the outcome is. I wonder if there's anything in our industry that if you could wave a magic wand, you would change and make easier or make go away or just change it altogether?

59:34You know, I think that sort of going back to the conversation we had before, I think that, I mean, there are a lot of things I could say to that. But I will say that one thing I wish that could change is that I wish that the toxicity of most of our offices could go away. And I wish that I could wave a magic wand and make bosses realize that without people feeling safe and nurtured, they're never going to be able to reach their full potential of creativity and that they're hindering themselves by not allowing that to be the case, to have their team feel really safe and nurtured. Because, you know, if we could all be doing the best work possible, then this world would look that much better.

1:00:17And I would like that very much because my eyes hurt a lot. Well, I mean, it's so horrible. I mean, we went through the Me Too movement and we went through this period where we thought we had changed all of that and we canceled some people and some people aren't on television anymore that once were. You know, but I will say to that point, it's very interesting that the magazine industry hasn't changed though because there is a lot of offices that are very publicly bad. Like all you have to do is go to Glassdoor and look them up and you will read hundreds of people saying this person harassed me.

1:00:56They did these horrible things to me over and over and over. And they're all part of all the lists and they're part of all the, you know, they get press on New York Times constantly and they're in the AD 100 and they're blah, blah, blah. And there's no accountability. Nobody's holding them accountable for mistreating their employees. They're being praised for the work they're doing despite that. So I think the industry should be looking at that. I mean, it's a real problem. No, no, no. It is a real problem. And I think, as you say, the information is out there. And people have chosen to look the other way in some cases.

1:01:33And I hear you. I wonder, so earlier you talked about falling out of love with literature for a time because it was work and such a chore. And I hope that you have rediscovered it later on. I have. I have. I definitely read compulsively now. I actually do audiobooks more than anything, which for a long time I was like, my husband used to do audiobooks. And I was like, that is so lowbrow. I can't believe you're doing that. And he was like, stop making fun of me. Because, you know, here I was reading. I love audiobooks. I know. I'm addicted. I love them. It's the best thing. Because you can do a million things at the same time.

1:02:12Like I'm cooking and I'm reading. Yeah. So I'm all for it now. I can't believe I wasted that much time being snooty. But I'm constantly reading something. I've definitely found my love back. I do have to say that I read a lot of autobiography now and a lot of books about history. So I'm not necessarily reading only fiction anymore. But I've definitely rediscovered my love. I mean, so in all these autobiographies, did you find people that you did want to model yourself after or that you did admire? Well, 100%. And a lot of them, I think for every single one that I read, at least there were parts that I thought were incredible.

1:02:54And, you know, some of it is that it doesn't necessarily completely apply to me. Like, there's some CEOs that are like this person running Disney, for example, like that's not my damn, right? But there's things there that I can learn from them. So like, yeah, it's pieces off, but there's definitely a lot of things to admire. I remember reading that I had a slight obsession with Ted Turner since I was a young girl because I'm weird like that. I have no idea. I was like, I just thought he was an incredible guy. He had like all this land and he was like, he had, you know, I don't know how much, you know, Turner.

1:03:28Oh, sure. Like he owns half of Montana or something, right? He's like single-handedly like he's, you know, if it wasn't for him, Bison might not be around anymore. to an extent. And so, and I, reading his autobiography for me was incredible. So like, he's still one of my slight heroes, I guess, like in a way I learned from their stories. And a lot of it is like their drive and their passion and like what makes them tick, right? What kind of individual wakes up in the morning and like decides to do something so big with their lives, you know? And, and they usually, it's, it usually starts from something very small, you know, like what makes you wake up in the morning and inspires you and finding these opportunities and grabbing ideas and inspiration when it reaches you and just sort of writing it, you know, until you get to where you need to get, which is really beautiful.

1:04:20And it's very similar to how I live. So there's commonality there between them and the way I think. Well, and that's what I'm curious about in wrapping this up. What is that for you? So what is, I mean, here you are, big firm, you're juggling all these projects all the time. I mean, what is it that keeps you going? What is it that so inspires you? I love what I do. I wake up, I mean, obviously there's bad days that you wake up and you don't necessarily want to go to the office, but that's pretty rare for me. I wake up, I am excited about the work that we're doing. I keep myself interested by knowing that Every project that we're doing is different than the last one.

1:05:01And like, we keep pushing ourselves to not repeat the work. It would be very easy because clients are like, I love this. Can I have this? No, you cannot have that. We're doing something completely different for you. And they're like, okay. Yeah, just keeping it fresh. And I think I stay inspired by my team. When I was very young, my mom, who, as I said before, was a teacher. And she told me that for her, being in the university system kept her young because she was surrounded by all this young energy and ideas and the vibrancy that young people have. And I am very lucky to come to the office and have people that are, you know, half my age sometimes, and they are just so full of life and like personality and ideas and potential, you know, and seeing that come forward over the tenure that they have with me is very motivating to me.

1:05:49Yeah. And do a lot of people stay for a long time? I would imagine that they would, but not just for the views, but although that is one reason. Yeah, I think now we have the majority of people here have been for a while. They don't leave. No, they don't leave. They leave when they get - Why would they want to? Well, I guess so. I mean, I guess a lot of people want to go out on their own, right? A lot of people want to have their own firm. You know, I have one person that left to start their own firm, and I have a very, like, usually we talk about those transitions with time, And we have a very mutually respectful, obviously, relationship with our team members.

1:06:25So when I see that that's where they want to go, I tell them, give me enough time. Let's work on it together. And then we have so many inquiries that come in that we just forward them to people. Because people are like, do you happen to have any? That's a question that comes up very often. Do you happen to have someone that used to work with you or something that you can recommend? And yes, we do. So we do do that, which helps the younger people that are going off on their own start from a great place. So yeah, they do stay. That's wonderful to hear that because I've spoken to so many designers who described how difficult it was to leave their firm and often the tension and anxiety.

1:07:03I want to have an open conversation so that they give me time. We can get the projects wrapped up with the dignity that they deserve. And I look at it from a, like, for me, my team, it's a little bit of a legacy, right? Like if they leave and they don't go somewhere better than here, or if they're starting their own firm, if they are not doing incredible work, it's going to look bad on us. What were we doing over here all this time, right? So I want to set them up for success. I want to make sure that if they go on their own, they're going to be like the next generation of incredible people. And then one day somebody will look back and say, man, all those people that came out of Tango.

1:07:42That's great. I want that. And do you have them go and do the Glassdoor reviews before they go and look at any of them? Make sure that they've... Really? You think you're going to work there? Because have you checked? Either that or I'm going to have a lot of angry people after me. There's going to be some people with pitchforks coming after me. I think you and I both might get a little heat from this conversation. I don't know. We'll see. I'm going to forward the hate mail to you and we can talk about it, but hopefully we haven't gotten ourselves in too much trouble. It's an absolute pleasure to spend time with you, and I thank you so much for making the time.

1:08:19Thank you for having me, and like I said, I hope we didn't get into too much trouble. Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda.

1:08:59I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.