The art of taking risks with Charlap Hyman & Herrero

28:08Andre Herrero:And they would connect us with people that needed a total world done very quickly on a budget for their booth. And that was this wild opportunity for us because very quickly in the span of about three or four years, we must have done maybe 15 booths. And it meant that we were able to realize a wide range of projects very, very quickly. And And, you know, in the time that it would have taken to do, you know, one project, basically, like one real project, we made a million little set designs.

28:52Adam Charlap Hyman:Created all these worlds that could exist.

28:55Andre Herrero:And it was really, and it was, you know, also like, you can imagine, like, at that exact moment, everyone was like, oh, my gosh, we need to, like, make something Instagrammable. Like, this is a whole thing. Like, there needs to be, like, a, you know, a photogenic moment. And we were already thinking like that, you know, so it worked super well for us. It was a very fruitful period. And I think that is very much kind of the genesis of like this sort of way of thinking and the approach and the sort of artistic set design approach that we have to architecture and interior design.

29:32Adam Charlap Hyman:Well, and do I recall that also leads to whether it was Amy Astley or Architectural Digest discovering you somewhere in that same time frame and becoming familiar with your work?

29:46Andre Herrero:Yes, that is the case. So we were invited to the Chicago Architecture Biennial around that time to be in their kind of very young design firm group. And it was a huge honor to be a part of that. And it was a very important thing for us because we got to know some of them and they appreciated what we had done and it sparked a longer connection with them and that magazine. And it was right after that that we went and got invited to go to lunch at the office in the cafeteria of Condé Nast, which was incredible. and I went there with like, you know, a chair and a bunch of, uh, a chariot design and a bunch of models and all sorts of things, which was exactly the wrong thing to do because it takes like 10 ,000 things of clearance to bring anything into the building.

30:50Andre Herrero:I was about like 30 minutes late for my lunch because I had brought all this stuff that wasn't authorized. But it was the beginning of a dialogue about press and stories with Architectural Digest, which is something that we're eternally grateful for. They really gave us space in their magazine when we were so young, and we had such little projects, like good looking, but very little projects. And they gave us space.

31:21Adam Charlap Hyman:Yeah. And it really seemed to get you out there in a meaningful way. And I assume led to, to your point, bigger projects to come after that.

31:33Andre Herrero:Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've always seen press, I think Andre would agree, as sort of an affirmation to people that already maybe know us most of the time. I mean, it's been very unusual for us that people have contacted us out of the blue from the AD100 list that they've written to us like we were going down the AD100 list and we liked what we saw on your website. You know, usually there's some way that we've come into contact with this person, but then they see an article and they're reminded of us or they're given the confidence in our abilities because they read the article. You know, in some way, the article enforces the thought that they could work with us and that it would be successful.

32:24Right.

32:25Adam Charlap Hyman:We also started our practice so young. So we didn't have 15 years at a previous firm and a boatload of typologies under our belt or that we could just grab a client from that firm and continue what we've been doing for the last 15 years. I mean, really the scale of work that we started at and where we're at now, it's come very gradually. So each new project is a bit larger, a bit more complicated. And it usually does involve a client taking a bit of a risk. And so the articles have just been extremely validating for that reason, because we continue to work with clients that take risks, but then are very, very happy that they did so and proud at the end of the day.

33:13Adam Charlap Hyman:I think that our clients that are early clients that have worked with us and clients who do take risks, it's such an honor for us to make them proud. They took a risk and we delivered and it's a great win-win. So Andre, you referenced earlier getting exposure to a couple of different architectural firms and sort of how they ran their business. I'm curious, since we've talked so much about this multidisciplinary approach and your willingness to take on lots of different kinds of projects. I wonder how, from a business perspective, you both have sort of wrapped your head around managing that aspect of it.

33:55Adam Charlap Hyman:And I'm assuming that different kinds of projects have different margins or different levels of remuneration with them. So how do you think about it? Well, I think that early days, we were just anything that was exciting to us, we would take on. So we took on a lot. Just dive in. We'll figure it out later. Yeah. We took on a lot. Now we're starting to create specific marketing budgets of what we can take on. We have a very sort of calculated understanding of what are the things we can take on. So we can't take on everything anymore. But we still, it's very important to us to keep this in our DNA.

34:38Adam Charlap Hyman:So we still want to work with artists and designers and other collaborators that we think are interesting and sort of level them up as other people have leveled us up and continue to do cultural works, even though that might not be the thing that pays everyone's salaries at the end of the day.

35:00Andre Herrero:Yeah, and I would add on to that, that it hasn't been easy. to balance.

35:08Adam Charlap Hyman:This is not the path I would necessarily recommend to others.

35:12Andre Herrero:Yeah. Well, I don't know. It was hard to not be focusing on one thing from a business perspective, from the logistics of day-to-day. I wouldn't say from a business perspective, because actually from a business perspective, I think it was overall a very rewarding path that has given us a lot of the parts that make our identity and make us a brand, actually. So from a branding point of view, I think it was very good. But from an operations perspective, it was very hard. It was hard to be bending ourselves into pretzels all the time and to be putting designers and architects that worked with us, that worked in our offices in the position of really having to invent something that they were, you know, flexing out of their comfort zone to achieve.

36:14Andre Herrero:And that, you know, that created difficulties over the years with regard to things like accounting and billing. I mean, there have been a lot of trials and tribulations associated with not sticking to one type of project and really nailing that type of project and how to bill for it and how to organize it and how to, you know, and I think we've gotten to a new level now. I think we feel like things are running much more smoothly and it's a new day, but it wasn't easy. The other thing I would say is that this award from the Smithsonian has prompted a whole line of questioning for us that is very new, I would say.

37:17Andre Herrero:How do you mean? Well, we have been very responsive for a long time. I mean, just very reactive. We have put a vibe out and we've gotten great projects back and they've been so exciting to us. And we've said yes and yes and yes and yes and yes. And for the first time... And now we're done with that. Well, we're definitely not done with it. But for the first time, we are kind of asking ourselves I was like, well, what do we want? And if we would go the other direction and chase something that we desire specifically, what would that be? And that is kind of new. That is kind of a new thing. It seems so intuitive and obvious, but in a way, we haven't actually asked ourselves that much over the last 10 years.

38:11Andre Herrero:What do we really want?

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38:58Adam Charlap Hyman:Well, so help me understand, so what was it? Was it the gravity of the recognition from the Smithsonian that's causing you to step back and reflect in this way? Or tell me the connection.

39:11Andre Herrero:I think it has to do with the gravity. And I think it also has to do with the feeling of confidence that it has given us that I think we could get the project we want, if we could articulate what that would be. If you knew what you wanted yourself, you could get it. And, you know, I think what Andre said about being problem solvers, you know, like that is very much how we're wired. So it's a funny thing to stop and say, you know, well, there is no problem necessarily that we have to solve. We can choose what we want to solve and we don't have to, you know, so no one's coming to us to solve it.

39:55Andre Herrero:What do we want to solve? And it's just, it's, it's, I guess it's kind of like growing up, you know, it's like making, making choices about what you want and thinking about who you are. And, you know, but anyways, we're growing up a little bit. So it's just a fun, it's a fun and very exciting moment for us. Yeah.

40:15Adam Charlap Hyman:I would say also just the length of time that we've been at it is a big contributor. So what is it, about 12 years that you're into the firm now, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's, and we still, for example, haven't gotten that dream project of ours, which is a ground up building that we do the interiors of and the garden and, you know, the decor, you know, this sort of gazumpkin's work of a residential piece of architecture. Think of, you know, early Frank Lloyd Wright, something that's just a complete book from outside to inside and is just all based off of this like one idea or one world. that's that's really the dream that we're chasing at the moment i would say that is so that's the dream and do you think you'd be as controlling as frank lloyd wright was about how people could move the table or not move the table in their own homes no that's not part of our idea that's not our vibe and we work with a lot of artists and designers and we bring a lot of you know we like we love our community and we want it it and our spaces are very layered it's not like chh everything but but you but you love this idea of really creating both the architecture and the interiors and sort of everything that goes along with yeah and i mean i think i would say

41:35Andre Herrero:probably more than frankly to write like an interesting model to consider is um joseph frank the austrian architect that became known for his textiles in uh stockholm after the second World War, but before the Second World War was making incredible architecture in Austria and Vienna and was, you know, specifically encouraging the mix of textiles and furniture that he'd designed and antiques and things that belonged to the clients. You know, it was a very generous approach that encouraged evolution beyond his involvement. And I think that that is very interesting to us. But Andra is right. I mean, that is kind of a real dream of ours.

42:26Andre Herrero:And it has crystallized in the last few months, I think, to be able to really put our finger on it.

42:33Adam Charlap Hyman:And what do you think it will take to, and people love to use that term, manifest in situations like this, but what do you think it will take to bring a project like that to you?

42:48Andre Herrero:I don't know.

42:49Adam Charlap Hyman:Besides talking about it on this very show and hearing about it, right? And then, yeah. I guess what we're doing, I mean, yeah, we're also doing micro versions of it, and we're just doing it ourselves. Do you hope that Andre's home is going to be sort of a workhorse for you and be able to be something you can all joking aside, like show people, this is part of what we'd love to be able to do for you. It's one aspect. I mean, it's still, it's still a renovation. Um, right. And so we do have a few, so it's not a ground up in that way. Yeah. We do have a few ground up buildings that are in the pipeline right now and we've designed probably over and we've designed a lot for whatever reason.

43:31I mean, architecture is a very, very interesting profession.

43:34Adam Charlap Hyman:And then a lot of what you design maybe gets shelved. So we do have an immense catalog. Interesting, he says. Yeah, interesting. Another word, wildly frustrating, but also, yeah, interesting how a lot of my work never comes to fruition, huh? We do have an immense catalog of really beautiful spaces from residential architecture to commercial pieces. I mean, really, we've been hired for the gamut. And it's just, we got to keep going because I think ultimately some of these will come to life. And once somebody sees what you've done, it's way easier to get more of that type of work. and it's going back to that sort of like early risk taking and finding those people that are interested in taking those risks or we do a version of it ourselves and kind of put it out there which is another avenue we're sort of exploring.

44:33Andre Herrero:And I think it is really true what people say that when you do one type of project it's much easier to get hired to do that type of project again. So I don't know, I guess we just put it out there.

44:47Adam Charlap Hyman:Do I recall that we've got offices listed in New York, LA, and Mexico City at the moment? So, I mean, help me understand the size of the firm that you guys are running and these different offices that you've got going and how that all works together. Overall, I would say we're about 35 people at the moment. Most of our employees are New York and LA based. This last year, we opened a studio in Mexico City. We're just, I've been traveling to Mexico City quite often recently. And I, for whatever reason, went to high school there for a little bit. And for whatever reason, it's kind of another whim moment where I just left the school I was at and went to Mexico.

45:34Adam Charlap Hyman:It's kind of a common theme. As one does, you know, sure. No one can say I don't follow my dreams. Love it. Love it, Andre. And I'm just so inspired by the, first of all, the talent that's out there, the creative talent, the energy. And we've been meeting a lot of really interesting people down there who are doing interesting projects. And it was just a moment for us to, let's try it. And can clients this whole – the approach that you all – and perhaps you're rethinking it a little bit, but wanting to work on lots of different kinds of projects. Can clients understand that versus a much more specialized interior design firm that simply does interior design for residential spaces?

46:31Adam Charlap Hyman:Do clients sort of comprehend the full scale and scope? And is that easy for them to digest and comprehend? I would say that's probably one of the most challenging aspects of marketing ourselves is because there's so many different types of work that we're doing. And so I find that when I'm speaking to someone about our work, if they know about our work, it's usually one or two things that are pretty similar, and they don't know an entire gamut of other things that we're working on. They have no idea. There's this whole other, right. Right. And then when we approach, or when we are approached, or when we approach clients, and we know what type of work they're wanting to do, we'll generally create a portfolio that's very specific to that type of work and that client.

47:20Adam Charlap Hyman:Because we do have so many types of projects, we can create basically all of these different portfolios that are based off of, you know, what type of work that person wants or that company wants.

47:32Andre Herrero:Well, the only sort of gray area is that I think we do work for a lot of people in the arts who do know at least the art world and installation work that we do even if they are looking to us to work on their townhouse or something.

48:00Adam Charlap Hyman:But they might see us do an installation like a beautiful installation for Camille and Ro and not know that we're also designing a 70 ,000 square foot ground up in Manhattan. Yes. it's it's that is the sort of and and when they do find out they're just confused um and i guess my fear is that they're confused being like well these kids are these guys good at anything because they do too much um and so it's like this like getting past this mentality of the specialists and and really reframing it as this this brand that can problem solve um at any scale that that being said the way that we do a lot of these things like the way that we are able to do let's say this ground up project in manhattan is we are partnering with an architecture firm that does these all day long and we become the design architect right um so there's always a method to integrate us into your project um at any scale and we we've we've done that that's how we collaborate with brands and clients all over the world.

49:09Adam Charlap Hyman:You know, we're always partnering with local specialists, or whether it's a theater that we've never designed a theater for, we'll partner with an acoustic specialist, a theater specialist. I mean, it's a very collaborative process to do any type of project. I wonder, Adam, in wrapping up and thinking about young people today coming into this industry and you referenced this conversation that Howard Slatkin has with you at a young age where he sort of sits you down and tells you about his work and what he does. And it seems to have gotten you very excited to pursue this. What would you say to young people today who are thinking about coming into this field?

50:00Adam Charlap Hyman:I mean, I would say it's very cliche, but I would say follow what's exciting you at the moment because money, well, money may or may not come, but ultimately. No promises that money will follow, but also. But also if you're doing what you love, you'll probably be good at it and you'll probably do it after hours and you'll probably just like always be hungry for the next step of what you're doing. and that's where you know the money will come because you'll become an expert at it you'll become very good at it if you're doing what you love if you pursue the money and you're not doing what you love you know you're you're ultimately going to fall a little bit behind because people who love doing that job are are going to be very good at it they're going to be taking it to the next level always hungry for the next thing like how can i push this how can i push this so i would say whatever it is if you're an architecture student that is interested in fashion but your parents are telling you now you got to be an architect i don't know what parents are telling anyone but basically you know do the thing that you're passionate about even if it's

51:08Andre Herrero:potentially against the grain yeah i think to that end we had a lot of small projects at the beginning very very little projects i mean people would pay us five thousand dollars to do something such small amounts to do a room or a living room or something. And we tried our hardest every time we had a project to make it count. There are very few projects that we ever did that did not become at the very least a single really amazing photograph for us. Everything became a part of our portfolio, an important part. And I think that that is something that is maybe interesting for people that are considering doing this, that are starting at a young age.

52:00Andre Herrero:You know that people, they may not have the confidence in you to give you a big project, but that doesn't mean you can't make something that's very helpful to you in terms of learning while you do it and in terms of being able to prove to the next person that you can do something. Another thing that I've thought a lot about, and as we've talked about working on Andre's own house in this podcast, I've thought a lot about over the years how important, and about my own studio apartment in college and Andre photographing it. I thought a lot about one's own house. And I had a one-bedroom apartment that was photographed and published in Architectural Digest.

52:51Andre Herrero:And it did so much work for giving form to our ideas, to our spirit, to what we believe in. and I really encourage people to just work with their own space somehow, you know, to somehow scrape it together. You don't have to make the whole, you don't have to renovate the whole apartment. You, you can just do one room, you know, you don't need the kitchen, the bathroom to be beautiful because it's a rental and you can't touch, you know, just do one room and pick an apartment that has like a nice window or something, you know, like just with a little bit of architecture and a little bit and a lot of work, I think a lot of like hands on work and help from your friends and borrowing things from interesting people.

53:43Andre Herrero:You know, you can, you can make something amazing.

53:46Adam Charlap Hyman:Well, and as you were saying earlier, no project that you did, even in the very early days, didn't serve you well in terms of images you were able to share or just something else that you could add to the portfolio that led to bigger and bigger projects coming your way. After that, it helped that your friend Andre was this incredibly talented photographer who had thrown himself into photography in such a meaningful way. I mean, the partnership in general is so rare, I think, that we have. And that has really, I mean, that has led us both in directions that neither of us would have ever gone to on our own.

54:25Adam Charlap Hyman:And I think that that, my mom tells me time and time again, And it's so crazy that you found and that you and Adam found each other so early on and that it works. And I think that that's something that's so special that I'm quite appreciative for. Well, and that you've both been able to grow in so many different ways and evolve so much from obviously the young people that you were at RISD. And even when you first started working together, you've both evolved and grown but haven't grown apart. You've only found sort of greater reasons to be working together and to be benefiting from each other's skills and eye and talent.

55:06Adam Charlap Hyman:That's remarkable.

55:07Andre Herrero:It's all about communication. I guess it's like a marriage. Tell me more, Adam. Yes? Well, it's definitely, you know, outside of a family relationship. It's the longest relationship that I've ever had is with Andre. And, you know, a real kind of partnership where you rely on someone. You need to believe that they're always honest and that they're always having your best interest at heart as well. And that this goes both ways. I mean, this sort of fundamental kind of trust between two people, it's very unusual. And of course, it has been tested. We have been doing this for 12 years. Um, but communication has been key and, and, you know, we're very, uh, we try to be very clear with each other.

56:05Andre Herrero:And I think at the end of the day, we both, we both want the same, the same thing. So it is very lucky we found each other because we're, we're aligned.

56:14Adam Charlap Hyman:Communication. And also I would add work ethic.

56:17Andre Herrero:We, we always trust that the other one, you know, there's no, there's no feeling of, oh, one person is doing more than the other.

56:24Adam Charlap Hyman:Yeah. And we're and we're trying to manifest this this ground up, build a home. Right. That's that's what we're putting out. Yes. That's what we want to have happen. And I know that everyone will be pulling for you. I'm such a fan of your work and have become such a fan of both of you personally in spending this time together. So I am certainly rooting for this project to come your way. And I can't wait to see what it will look like. Okay, gentlemen, thank you both.

56:58Andre Herrero:Thank you so much. I'm such a fan of your podcast, by the way. And I've learned so much from your podcast and from people you've had on your podcast. So I can't believe that we're on your podcast. So thank you. And how cool.

57:12Adam Charlap Hyman:I am delighted. And I appreciate that very much. And I'm glad that it's been helpful. And I know that this will be helpful to so many. So I'm grateful for your time and all of your insights. So thank you.

57:22Andre Herrero:Thank you. Thank you.

57:25Adam Charlap Hyman:Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online at businessofhome.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast at businessofhome.com. If you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nikolaos and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.