The industry has gotten more intense. Shawn Henderson has gotten more relaxed

0:03This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Sean Henderson. Sean cut his teeth working for established New York names like Birch Coffee and Thad Hayes before going out on his own in the early 2000s. He's since carved out a shining career with industry accolades, high-profile clients around the world, a monograph published by Monticelli, and thoughtfully layered projects regularly appearing in top shelter publications. I spoke with Sean about what being on lists like the AD100 does and doesn't do for your career, how runaway costs have impacted the industry, and how loosening up and relaxing his style has changed his work for the better.

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1:51But did you know that most every piece of furniture is customizable? Designers can choose from hundreds of fabrics, an array of leathers, more than a dozen wood finishes, and most upholstery pieces can be made with contrast welts, dual fabrics, nail head trims, and so much more. Design something one of a kind and Ethan Allen will bring it to life. To join their trade program, go to ethanallen.com slash trade. And now back to the show. And we should have that designer versus decorator conversation because I still have people emailing me all worked up about it. I spoke to Bill Sofield about it. He said, you know what?

2:31I just like designer. Let's just go with designer. Nevermind interior designer. Nevermind decorator. How about just designer? I'm like, sure. Works for me. Legendary Bill Sofield. I mean, right. Right? I think it's good for him. Whatever you want, Bill. Whatever you say, sir. Yeah. Yeah. He was also, funny enough, thinking about my conversation with view, he was talking about the similarities between the hospitality industry and the design industry. And actually, and I think a lot of people, as you and I have discussed, think hospitality is a great way to learn some of the basic skill sets that you need to be a successful designer.

3:15I'm not saying everyone has to be born into a family of six or seven, if I recall, with you and uh but uh but but speaking of that and you did grow up in the in the hospitality industry right and that your father ran a a successful restaurant and uh and you and and family members were all put to put to work in various ways tell me tell me a little bit about that um well yeah i mean i always joke that my parents had so many kids so they could have a built-in workforce right built in that was very smart of them i know well i mean i think your mother had any number of children right before she was 30 if i recall that's right my mom had uh five kids by the time she was 28 and then i came along seven years later um surprise surprise uh yeah no it was uh so and did they tell you that you were a big surprise actually we weren't planning on you sean um no they actually never told me that i mean i think some of my siblings have told me that yeah but i mean you know i think technically it makes me an only child right to to have had that that big of an age difference between the next oldest and me um but yeah i i mean by the time i came around that i you know they were exhausted and i thank god i was a really good kid because i never really got into any trouble but uh so but yeah i mean i could do whatever i want wanted basically but we all did work in this in uh in our family restaurant together at at one time all of us worked there um but my dad had many different businesses um he had a a mobile um sort of cleaning unit which is basically like a car wash on wheels and he had contracts with you know government the government or like you know sears roebuck and cisco and he would clean like tractor trailers and stuff like that.

5:09And he eventually sold off many of the trucks and he kept one and he gave it to my brother, Keith, who insisted that I work with him on the weekends. And Dennis, if you can imagine. I want to imagine. I love this thought of you in the mobile cleaning unit. Please tell me more. 10 years old, literally 10 years old, in the middle of winter, my brother would call me at six o 'clock in the morning and I would pick the phone up off the cradle and just drop it and hang it up because I knew he was calling to wake me up to go to work. And, you know, at 6am, it was crazy. So of course, like he would pull the truck up in front of my parents' house and he would pull the horn and which would wake up the entire neighborhood.

5:53So I'd have to get on my clothes and go wash tractor trailers in the middle of winter for$10 a weekend. It was full on. That's what he would give you? $10? Yes. Full on child labor. It was crazy. But, you know, I think it all helped to build a good work ethic. And did your father ever talk to you about business or son, let me tell you, the ABCs of being an entrepreneur or running a business or? Not at all. No, not at all. I think, you know, we probably just learned it through, you know, osmosis and just kind of being around, you know, the business. But I think I learned much of how I practice from my mentors and the people that I have worked for over the years.

6:41So tell me about that. I worked for three different design firms before starting my own. One was this really great guy, talented guy in upstate New York in Rochester where I went to college. His name was Chris Layton. Chris was really well known for doing all of the local restaurants. And he also did residential design. So I worked for him for about a year and a half or two years. And I really learned a lot about the sort of technical aspects of interior design. And so it was an incredible experience. But my long-term goal was always to move to New York. I always knew that I wanted to be here.

7:17So I moved here in 1996. And I had a brief stint working for this furniture company called John Boone. I used it as an opportunity to get to New York because I wanted to be here. It turned out like being a salesperson wasn't really, I didn't love that. And I really missed designing. So from there, I went to go work for Birch Coffee, who was an amazing guy. In fact, I mean, he was, you know, I was kind of using him as an advisor, like when I had my business back in, I think, 2013, 14, 15 or so, kind of getting some advice. So you would reach out to him for advice and counsel? Okay, interesting.

8:00So what was he good at? What made him a good business person or a good design business? I mean, I think the way that he was able to manage clients and the way that he kind of moved through projects, I think was super admirable. And I just remember him being so machine-like and he was kind of unafraid. But learning that was super valuable. But ultimately, I wanted to work for somebody whose design aesthetic that I really connected with. And that's when I was able to go work for Thad Hayes. And so how did that happen? How did Thad end up hiring you? A funny story. So I can be pretty lucky sometimes.

8:45and I like to say that I can manifest things that I want to happen. So I remember seeing dad's work in the kind of front of book of Architectural Digest. And it was like one or two images of a townhouse or a brownstone in Brooklyn. And I looked at the picture and I thought, well, that is really pretty. I love this guy's work. I want to go work for him. And I saw this two days later, my friend Arthur Dunham, who used to run Jed Johnson, he called me up and said, hey, my friend Thad Hayes is hiring. Are you interested? And I was like, yeah, that's funny. You should be calling me. So I interviewed with Thad and did not get the job.

9:34So I wrote him a handwritten thank you note. And about two weeks later, I got a call from them. They wanted to meet with me and they offered me a job because the person that they had hired did not work out. So quickly. Yeah, I know. Who knows what happened with that person? And you were number two on the list, so you got the call. That's right. I did. Yeah, I was so hungry to learn about design and to grow in the industry that I worked really hard for him for over four years. And, you know, I did a lot of custom furniture designs for him. And that's, you know, where I started like designing a lot of furniture.

10:20But I really learned a lot about the history of design and the history of furniture. Hmm. Well, and I know that Thad's work resonated with you a great deal. Did you have a clear sense of your own work? Did you have a clear vision of the kind of work that you wanted to do in the early days? I think I did because I was so drawn to Thad's aesthetic. I mean, I think I kind of was much more rigid. I'm not saying Thad's work is rigid. That's coming out right. But there is an exactness to Thad's work. There is an exactness. That's a better word for it. And I think I was more like that when I first started.

11:09And I think it's fair to say that my interiors are a little bit more relaxed. Have you loosened up a little bit, Sean, over the years? Yeah, I definitely have loosened up over the years. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's been a little bit more interesting for me to be more collaborative with with my clients you know um i i it's it's so important for me that they are a part of the process and that they feel like their space is a reflection of who they are and how they want to live and you know i i certainly have clients that want me to create that for them and that are a little more removed from the process and that's that's fun too But I think some of my better work is actually where clients are engaging with me and have a little bit more of a knowledge of design.

12:04Well, I'm always curious because, and I don't mean to point out Thad specifically because I think a lot of designers represented this, but I felt like Thad felt like you're going to get my work and what I do. Right. right and that's why you're coming to me and i i mean i i want to hear a basic outline of what you'd like but that you know you're not going to be that involved in the process right as the vibe i got that is you're exactly right with that and okay but i think that that was very much of like that that was how the whole industry was right i feel like that was of the time That was up that time.

12:42Right. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, now, for better or worse, I mean, clients are involved, right? Clients do want to get involved. Whether they want them to be or not. Well, and was that a difficult... So after THAAD, was that a difficult transition for you to make with clients wanting to or clients seeming... We talk a lot about how the internet or how the availability of design has made clients at least think they're more knowledgeable, whether they actually are, I'm not sure. But a lot of people think they have a lot more information and therefore knowledge and want to bounce ideas around with you.

13:21And I don't know if you love that or don't. I mean. Well, it works when it works. Says Sean very diplomatically. I mean, it can be really challenging at times when, you know, a client kind of feels like They know what they're talking about, but they don't. And so that education process can be really challenging at times. But I think that that's important. We kind of vet that out in the interview process. So it's very rare that that kind of situation would come up where it's actually a struggle that way, right? So you get a sense in the interview process how much this person wants to participate or what they're, I mean, tell me what you try to vet out in that process.

14:12Yeah, I think it's just listening to them and hearing them and like how they're talking about design and, you know, what, how they want to be involved in the process and who makes the decisions in the house. And do they come to an agreement if it's a husband and wife or, you know, two partners? Like, I want to know how that all is structured. And I think it's more of, I think it's like more of a sixth sense that I have in probably working in the restaurant business. my entire childhood life that I'm sort of able to kind of pick up on people's different energy. So I know when to run. Well, as you were saying earlier, you worked pretty intensely for THAAD for, I forget, was it four years or five?

15:00Yeah, just over four years. Yeah. Yeah. And at the time, were you mindful of wanting to go out on your own? Was that always in the back of your mind? I remember you telling me a story when you were in school with your teacher asking, you know, raise your hand if you want to be a famous interior designer one day. And you were the only person in the class, if I remember, who raised their hand, which I don't understand that class. I'm glad you got out of there. But also, I feel like, yes, of course you raised your hand. You're like, yes, that's why I'm here. I want to be, of course I want to be a big old interior designer.

15:36That's absolutely right. I mean, I just really, I knew what I wanted to do from an early age. And I always just had an arbitrary goal of having my business, my own business by the time I turned 30. And I was 31 and it just felt like the right time to do it. Right. I had a couple of freelance projects that I was working on, to be exact. And, you know, but I, you know, it was early days. I was out of debt and, you know, I had a little money saved and I figured, well, I can do this. So after I quit, I promptly lost one of the projects and I went into a panic attack, could not leave my apartment for a weekend.

16:23So that was challenging, but, you know, I persevered and things got better. And I think early on that year, I got a little bit of press. I was at House Beautiful as one of the top young 25 American designers or something like that. And were you thinking, what have I done? Why did I leave? I mean, was it like, oh my goodness, I just need to figure this out? Yeah. Oh my goodness, I need to figure this out. How am I going to like, how am I going to pay my rent? How am I going to live and last without this money coming in. But, you know, that's when I, you know, I remember taking on pretty much anything I could do at the time, right?

17:03Actually, going back to Arthur Dunham, I think he recommended me to somebody that he used to work with. And, you know, she, he was kind of too busy at the time, and they were still very close friends. And so he recommended me for this, this project. And I mean, it was not my aesthetic, really, but I had to do it, I needed the money. And, you know, so I did a of that back then well and and a there's no shame in in that you got to do what you got to do right right and also i mean i've i've rarely spoken to someone who's found success who can't tell you the the days i had to say yes to whatever came along right and and hope that it led to some bigger opportunities and uh and and in your case it certainly did do you remember i mean you mentioned the House Beautiful Press, and that certainly helped.

17:53Do you remember sort of meaningful turning points for you in the early days when you thought, oh, whew, this is going to work. I am going to have a business and make it? Because it was a while before you hired even your first employee, if I recall. Yeah. I mean, I think I had, after I was a year in business, I think I I hired my first employee. Actually, my second employee that I hired is still working for me to this day. Oh, wow. She's been with me for 21 years. Isn't that crazy? Well, I mean, I feel like I've had these conversations lately with designers who tell me about some of the early jobs that they have.

18:35that looking back, like now we laugh, but in today's parlance, we realize, oh my goodness, this was maybe a little toxic or a little intense, right? I mean. Crazy, yes. Do you remember the stories of Naomi Leff, where she would like throw pencils out at her staff from her office or something? Well, exactly, I do. I mean, God, rest in peace. Yeah, no, no, no. And I feel like I'm told that there are still a handful of firms out there where some pretty bad behavior is still going on. Some of them might be on a few of the celebrated lists in our industry. I don't know. But I was speaking with a guest recently who told me I need to be spending more time on Glassdoor looking up firms and reviews from former employees.

19:27But I do feel like there was both an intensity to what was expected of you at work. I remember talking to Andre Malone just recently, and he was talking about in the early days of working for Robert Stern, you weren't leaving before 11 o 'clock at night. And here he was, this young man in New York in a very similar situation to you, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it just, it seems like that was the norm, both in terms of the intensity and the hours and all of that. Very much the norm. Yeah, very much the norm. And I mean, it's, I think it's, it's much different now. I think, you know, I think I want my team to have a balance, right?

20:12I mean, I don't want them to be stressed out. And I think it's important that we're, we're, we're focused and getting work done within the allotted number of hours. And, you know, on the occasion that we have to work late and kick it in, then, you know, we do that. But I want to have a just, I don't know, I feel like I want to have a happier, healthier work environment.

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21:25And now, back to the show.

21:32When you were working with Thad, you mentioned that you learned a great deal about the history of design. So was there a lot of focus on what other legendary designers, the work that they had done, some of the rooms that they had created? Or how did the knowledge come to you over the years that you worked there? I think while I was working for Thad, I was probably the last generation of designers that had to actually get out and physically shop. The internet wasn't an option to shop back then. And, you know, we would go out and shop and take pictures with the office camera. I mean, the whole process was so long from the time you were out shopping to the time you got an answer back from the client, whether they were going to buy the piece.

22:18I mean, now it's instantaneous, right? But those days were amazing because I was out shopping at everywhere, Lobel Modern, Donzella, Hosser Burroughs, which used to be called Antique back in the day, R and Company. I mean, back in there when they first started out and they had a little shop in Brooklyn. I mean, all these people, Fred Silberman, I mean, my God, the most legendary Italian design shop that, you know, I learned so much from Tommy, that salesperson. He's just incredible. But, you know, many of these people like Evan Lobel, by the way, was responsible for me getting one of my very first clients.

23:00So that's, you know, I had great relationships with these people. And you're going back to my reference to being in House Beautiful. I was recommended by Anthony Mott, who used to own AM collections. So those types of relationships are so important. And I think now it's very different, right? Because everything is somewhat transactional and it's over email and stuff. So I try to encourage my team as much as possible to get out and shop. So coming back to the sort of turning points in your career after you start your own firm. You get some good press. I can't remember when you first ended up on the AD100 list, something that you were recently named to the AD100 again, and congratulations on that.

23:51Thank you. But I feel like that happened for you. Will you tell me? I think the first time that I was on the list was back in 2015 or 2016. I can't quite remember, but I was with Margaret Russell on the list, I think once or twice. And then the first year that Amy was editor-in-chief, I think she had just come on board, I was on the list. Then taken off the list, then back on for the past couple of years. And did they tell you you were being taken off the list or did you just certainly discover it in the magazine? Yeah, no, they don't really tell you. And so suddenly it's like you see the announcement and you're like, um.

24:36Well, and at that time, did you have an understanding of why that was? Had you not submitted projects or was there something? I mean, I'm always curious on your end what you think goes into being there. I think it's doing consistent good work, but I also think it's a relationship that you sort of have to maintain. And, you know, I think I was never really great at that kind of PR type of relationship. And, you know, I say all this because, you know, I'm not at all a disingenuous person. And so, you know, I have a great relationship with Amy and everybody at AD. But, you know, I think I have just gotten to a different place in my life and in my career.

25:30And I just, I feel calmer and probably a little bit more secure. And I feel like I've got, you know, an amazing team that I've built. And I'm able to now focus more time on other things. And PR is an important thing. It really is. You got to do it, it turns out. Yeah, you got to do it. You got to do it. You drop off the list if you're not doing the outreach. That's right. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's a real thing, but it's interesting. It sounds as though, not that it means less, but it has a different meaning for you today. we've been talking about it recently on the show how the the impact or the meaning of that list and and what it means at any given time it's clear that it is still so significant even in a even in a shelter media world that has changed a great deal and and most designers will tell you oh you know a project gets published it doesn't have nearly the impact maybe in terms of making the phone ring or the new projects come in that it might have 10 years ago.

26:39But still, there's something about the AD 100 that has a certain cachet, a stamp of approval that is meaningful, no matter where your career is. Yeah, it definitely does, for sure. I feel like every time that I have been lucky enough to get published, that you don't necessarily see the direct impact of being published or even being on one of these lists, right? I think that, you know, what has happened to me throughout my career is that, you know, back in the day when things were less online, like somebody would have torn out my project from the magazine and they're calling me, you know, five years later, three years later, you know, when their children have moved out of the house and they're actually ready to do a new project or after their pet has passed away and they need to, you know, replace everything.

27:29And so that's like that, that I think still kind of happens, right? So, you know, the, I think, general awareness of me and my business, you know, has certainly grown, right, by, you know, by being published and by being included on these lists. And, you know, I think with, of course, social media and Instagram, like, you know, a lot of us are are in charge of our own sort of editorial sort of in npr but so it's great i think to kind of have these things to to kind of to feed into the into you know instagram and stuff and you know it's it's nice to kind of keep that that ball rolling right to have fresh new interesting stuff to to be talking about versus just showing pretty pictures you know over and over again Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely.

28:22One of the things I'm curious about is, I feel like particularly this past year, but in the last few years, a lot of younger, lesser known firms showing up on some of these lists. And I wonder what your reaction is to that and if that makes sense to you. You know, I think that, you know, I just want to reiterate just that it gets for these younger firms to be on the list is so amazing, right? Like it's I can I know that we all know the feeling to have been to be included. And, you know, I think that what AD is great at is kind of forecasting things that we may not even necessarily know, like what's happening.

29:08right like i you know i think i'm i'm in like this you know i think an old school sort of mindset because of you know when i started my career and who i worked for and you know that you know i feel like i kind of put my time in and earned my stripes and um you know but i understand you know certain people have a different path um and so you know i think that they are but you know everyone at ad is probably you know looking at at different types of design trends and i i would assume that's how they're making their decisions to include people on the list. I think there's a different thirst for new, fresh, young, different.

29:46Yeah. So it sounds like you feel like it just represents something different today because it's got a mix. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. That makes sense. I'm curious about it. I mean, often when I'm at the New York School of Interior Design and I interview designers there, we inevitably end up having this question about better to go work for another designer for a handful of years to get that experience. I always feel like most seasoned designers feel like, yes, if you can go work in Bunny Williams' office or David Kleinberg's office or Thad Hayes' office, absolutely go do that if you can.

30:30Dennis, I could not agree more. And I think, you know, I've said this so much over the years that I think it's so important for everyone to apprentice, right? I think that to understand how a business is run, to understand the history of design, and, you know, I know some of this stuff can be, you can kind of learn and absorb, you know, on your own if you have a hunger and thirst, you know, for that type of knowledge. But, you know, the practical aspect of working in a design firm and, you know, to, to understand how projects are run and managed and, um, you know, it's, it's, I think, super, super important.