The Thursday Show: A New York trade show shakeup. Plus: The return of the sleeper sofa

24:24So he's feeling pretty good about his designs. And I do think that as the Business of Home podcast predicted, we finally are seeing white boucle buckling and the people are moving on from that. And what's so poignant, Fred, is that I think our house, particularly in upholstery, has such a huge opportunity in the marketplace, which is why I'm sorry that their stock is struggling the way it is, and I'm sorry that they're not getting their story out as effectively. Because another conversation that was even bigger than the foam conversation in High Point was how many CEOs said to me, oh, I'm buying our house stock.

25:02Oh, absolutely. Oh, this stock is priced to move. And so a lot of the high point CEOs think that our house is going to at minimum double in production and volume from where they are now in the in the coming years. And so they're they're big believers in this our house story. And so it's it's unfortunate to see Wall Street's reaction to all of this. But if anything, it makes me think that a lot of high point CEOs are probably buying more on the on the dip because I mean, and these are people that are very close to the market. market and think that our house is positioned very well. And again, in the upholstery category, it's almost all coming out of North Carolina.

25:43But we have to move on and talk about, wait for it, Fred, sleeper sofas. That's right. Another story from BOH's Aiden Taylor revealed a new wave of sofa beds with sleek designs and more comfortable materials. They're back, Fred. Sleeper sofas. but are they sleeper sofas? See, this is an interesting debate we were having before we started the podcast. It's a hot one. Dennis, you say sleep sofa. That's what you say, right? Well, you know, I used to sell many a sleep sofa, Fred, back in the day. I worked for Avery Boardman and Carlisle, and, you know, that's what we called them, sleep sofas. And, you know, we were in the business.

26:24That's all I'm saying. Well, exactly, yeah. Maybe that was sort of like industry lingo. And it's funny, our producer, Caroline Burke, calls them sofa beds. I call them sleepers. I don't know if that's a California thing. Sleeper's creepy to me. That's all I'm saying. Sleeper's a little, makes me a little nervous. Sleeper creeper. But yeah, I mean, this was another great story by Aiden sort of talking about the, you know, I don't know if they truly ever went away, but certainly there is like a resurgence of, you know, new, better options when it comes to sleepers, sleeps, sofa beds, whatever you want to call them.

26:53It's interesting. It's another category, kind of like recliners, where there's almost like a stigma around it. You know, there's this sense both that, okay, the product itself is kind of chintzy and cheap because you used to have these sleeper sofas that were really creaky and were heavy and the mattress was horribly thin. And I think a lot of people have been sort of burned by that experience. And so that's the association around it. But I also think there's kind of a latent snootiness around the idea that it's like, what do you mean? You don't have three guest rooms? You need a sleeper sofa?

27:23Why? You know? And I think that kind of has, you know, dog the category a little bit, but there is, I think, real, there are really high-end good sleeper sofas. So Aiden, you know, wrote a good piece sort of exploring it. What do you make of the thesis? Do you think they ever really went away or what's, where are we on the sleeper in that? The sleeper debate. I do think that justifiably many models got a bad rap because there was that long metal support bar that was quite uncomfortable that was underneath the mattress and a lot of people just didn't get a good night's sleep. Also, many of them were just difficult to operate and many of them weren't attractive.

28:06Interestingly, some of the fabric companies have been working overtime on the furniture side of their business. Kim Scodro, friend of the show and designer out of Chicago, actually was just talking about she just installed one from cravit for a client and it has a pump to fill it so that the that the mattress kind of blows up kind of like an air bed and um i think a lot of people had their nose in the air about sleep sofas but i was delighted as my dms filled up with oh yes using them all the time and uh why have that wasted space a lot of people that home office why shouldn't that have a sleep sofa in it and it so it can be a guest room as well there you go yeah and i mean i think as aiden pointed out in his piece, like there is like a real driver for the demand, which is, I think part of it is just COVID, you know, everybody is the answer to everything, but I think it's true here.

28:57And that people kind of were looking for new ways to utilize their space, you know, in different ways. I also think that, you know, the rise of like Airbnbs and rentals created this sense of everybody's, you know, tricking out their, their home or rental property with a sofa and why not turn it into a bed. And also just that, you know, the contemporary, you know, real estate landscape, it's, you know, people are staying placed in their homes longer, you know, they may not be able to move into a bigger house with that extra guest bedroom. So when the in-laws come, you need a sleeper sofa. So there's a lot of like, you know, outside factors that are pushing this rise.

29:27In addition to some of the stuff you were talking about of, you know, just tech, the technology has gotten, you know, so much better. I mean, I remember I grew up with the clunky thing that kind of felt like a rodent trap when you were, when you were getting into it. And now, I mean, you know, the, the ones from American leather, incredible. The mechanism is great. The mattress is really incredible. All kinds of high-end Italian brands have their own very sleek sleeper sofas. The style has gotten so much better. Technology has gotten better. I shopped for one a couple years ago and I was blown away by the option.

29:58So I think it really is a category that I don't know if it's totally lost all of its stigma. It needs a better name. It can't be sleep sofa. It can't be so it's got to be we need to come up with like a high-end name for it. I think once we get that it's going to be the hottest. It's going to be on the cover of AD. I agree and I can't wait for designers to write in and tell us what the what the great name for sleeper sofas should be because it can't be sleeper sofas please but i do think it's a category that is worth revisiting i was surprised by the number of designers who said yeah i'm looking for one right now so let me know what you hear and i do think that it's uh it's come a long way and i'm so glad thanks uh aiden taylor for uh giving us most of the show today shout out to aiden that was uh that was great all right that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the best product launches from Milan and a guide to NYC by design.

30:51But first, a quick break.

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31:39Their shared booth showcases transformable furniture paired with ergonomic solutions, proving that spaces can work as hard as they look beautiful. See how these two leaders in sustainable, multifunctional design help create homes that adapt to how people actually live and work. Visit Afternoon Light May 16th through the 19th at 161 Water Street.

32:11And we're back. I'm joined now by Julia Haney Montanez, the co-founder of the design release. Julia, thank you so much for joining me. It's an honor and a privilege, Dennis. I'm so happy to be here. Well, delighted to have you. And at such a busy time as we're just about to kick off New York Design Week and ICFF and oh, wait, ICFF. So much to talk about there, which I want to get into. But really quickly, big reactions to the news coming out about the move? Honestly, when I got the news, I thought immediately this is a fantastic idea. OK. I think everyone felt a little bit like it was a little too squished between Milan and Copenhagen and Copenhagen getting so much attention these days.

32:59Obviously, Milan is growing enormously. So I think that we deserve a little break in May. Absolutely. Absolutely. So it sounds like a great idea and I want to discuss it further. But before we get into all of that, let's tell people about you and the design release and even a little bit of your background, because you and I were having a fun conversation before we got started about your time at the A.D. Home Show when you used to run the Maid section there. Take us back, Julia. Oh my gosh. Well, I suppose I could say my design career started when I lost my finance job right after graduating in 2008 and took my severance package, went to Paris, discovered the decorative arts museum there, and it changed my life.

33:47So I moved to Los Angeles, rebranded, told people I was an interior designer. They believed me. It all worked out in that way. Went back to New York, long story short and I saw actually it was an interior designer that I was assisting um Kishani Pereira she sent me a listing um gosh could it have been on business of home I'm not sure but it could have been and it was a uh a job listing for the architectural digest design fair I clearly did not read it I just said eight oh architectural digest AD that's great I'd love to at that magazine. Yes, exactly. I show up to the interview. Jeff Peterson was interviewing me.

34:31He was the director of the fair. I sat down with him. He explained the show and I said, I'll take it. This sounds great. It sounds perfect. And he looked at me. I didn't offer you any job, but okay. So a few months later, or maybe a few weeks later, he offered me the job and I received my own section of a whole trade show. I was able to take 200 exhibitors, curate this section year after year and really build it up into something beautiful. And I had so much fun. It was such a huge part of my career. And so I did the AD show from 2013 to 2020 when unfortunately, sadly because of issues at pier 94 and because of financial situations and covid it ended so r.i.p to ad show yeah no no i was i was very sad having been been at the ad home show for for many many years when the lovely mrs gully of course was at ad and and jeff peterson is a a longtime friend and uh and he did such a great job of pulling that all together so what happens for you after the sad closing of the AD Home Show?

35:43What do you do next? Oh my gosh. Well, during AD Show, Mr. Peterson, Jeff gave me such a long rope. And I told him, you know, Jeff, the show is in March. It's now April, May, June. No one wants to talk to me. No one wants to see my email in their inbox reminding me of their next trauma, four days of stress, right? so is it okay if I travel the world and start scouting exhibitors for the fair and just and just look at other trade shows look at their production value and just check it out and so I started traveling first to Milan and then to Copenhagen Toronto does Toronto was huge one for me and I started collecting all the off-site information I came up with the idea to create a design world calendar.

36:35And then COVID hit. And of course, where are the exhibitions? Nowhere. And then I decided I wanted to move to London. And it really reactivated my first love, which was always writing. And I started our design release sub stack and it took off. And so the design release lets you know about all of the upcoming shows, what's worth seeing. It seems like you've done a pretty elaborate outline for NYC by Design, for example, right? Yeah, exactly. So the design release, the website itself is essentially a listing and a guide for design weeks, for fairs, for exhibitions around the world everywhere. I think Leo, my business partner and I, our biggest value in this whole world of design is that we love the community.

37:27And that's just what I wanted to ask you. So what is this community? Who's reading the design release besides myself, of course, and people who want to stay informed? Who's coming to this and who's going to all of these shows? Well, a lot of it is interior designers and a lot of it is designers themselves, furniture designers who want to see what their contemporaries are doing. A lot of galleries read us. A lot of journalists read us. I know that a lot of journalists use us to create their own roundups. So I like to think of us as sort of like almost a press release in certain ways. And then now a lot of fashion people are trickling in and reading it.

38:09Some other Substacks that write about fashion are starting to take note of what's happening in the design world. They find it very interesting. So the world is growing. And how do you like being on Substack and what's that experience been like for you? Well, I had always been looking for a new platform since we had a MailChimp that we were sending out pretty, you know, once a month, let's say. And I really, it was such an expensive platform and I just wasn't happy with it. And I started noticing David Nishan's Substack. Sure. And I reached out to him. Which we quote often on the show. Yeah, and I reached out to him for advice.

38:45And I said, you know, I'm curious about Substack. Can we have a little chat? What he told me, which I really appreciated, was that you really need a voice. And I have a voice. I have opinions. I think, you know, depending if I'm grumpy or happy, my voice can take on different types of personalities. But I think I have a voice. And I said, okay, you know, I think I can do this. and I've loved being on Substack because it's seen a lot of growth. I just think it's a really wonderful platform. I think more and more design world people are joining and it's becoming, again, a lovely community. Yeah.

39:24Well, so let's talk a little bit about your voice and you said that sometimes you show up a little grumpy. I noticed that in the most recent note, there's a little bit of a rant actually going on. There's a little bit of a rant and let's talk about it Because Milan has become, you know, this great big thing. And I know you've got opinions on that. But tell me. Well, you know, I think my opinions have somewhat changed. I think about a year ago, last Milan, last May of 2025, is when I started noticing these very shallow fashion exhibitions taking place. And it was sort of like, OK, there goes the neighborhood.

40:02good and at first i thought okay this sucks like this is why we can't have anything good in this world the design world's been this is why we can't have nice things exactly the design world's been co-opted now it's like the real housewives are going to go in and shoot an episode there and it's just going to be them at gucci and it's definitely enough to make someone a bit grumpy right? But then you realize that who is paying the bills of all these design publications? Right. Who's paying the bills at Condé Nast? Who's paying the bills likely at Gallery, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's the fashion brands.

40:44So I don't think I see it anymore as a problem, but I see it as that if they want to participate in a design dialogue, authentically do it. It's a little meaningless. It's a little shallow. And I think design world people, we pride ourselves on not being very shallow because design itself requires so much research and development and especially the handmade nature of design. It requires craft. It requires skills. It requires love and passion. It's like art. And to see it become a little bit, become shallow is not fun to watch. And the other challenge is that often there is an overlap or a near overlap with the High Point Furniture Fair, despite the fact that High Point actually puts its dates on its website going all the way out to 2029.

41:41The people who seem to plan Salone don't seem to pay much mind to that. And already I see that next year it's actually going to be at the very same time as High Point. So that will be a choice that designers will have to make. But it's interesting coming back to this ICFF conversation, it's interesting that that conversation led to what I gather has been a conversation going on for the past several years about should we really take the bold move and move ICFF to November, which is what's planned for next year as we've talked about, and have it run concurrently with BDNY. which is a show that from the past few years that I've seen going to that show has been building quite dramatically.

42:28And a lot more people have been coming to that show. What's your take? Well, BDNY has never really been on my, well, it's always been on my radar, but it's never really been something that I personally look to as a cultural event. Hasn't been cool enough for you, Julia. I get it. No, no, no. All right. It's not that it's not cool enough. It's just that the design release is not really just for trade. The design release is for lovers of design. And I consider myself before trade, before anything, a lover of design. And BDNY, the last time I went, was a really proper trade show. And it's funny because I think it's actually a really great place for people, for independent studios to show.

43:18because it's a little bit, dare I say, it's a little generic, the product on view. So I think there's a really great opportunity to showcase your unique designs if you can produce enough for hospitality. So I think it's a great show. I think that it could be cooler, dare I say, but I think that the alignment is very smart. Well, and perhaps being the next door neighbor to ICFF will help make it cooler. Hospitality designers, more than ever, if they're not, they should be sourcing unique product for hotels. Hotels should not be, I mean, this is a whole other conversation, but hospitality is having a huge moment right now.

44:14Wellness, hospitality, everything. these days if you pay a thousand dollars a night for a hotel are you getting a five-star experience you don't know you just don't know anymore so I think hotels are really are really aiming to stand out in many different ways and a lot of a lot of them are doing that with their designs of course having more of beautiful interiors that are more unique and art and working with art consultants, design consultants, that sort of thing. So I think it's in their best interest to check out ICFF and see the emerging or independent design there and vice versa. Well, so speaking of ICFF, you're involved with ICFF and let's talk about your role and what you're doing there.

45:01And let's tell people who might not be overly familiar what ICFF is all about and what it's going to look like this year? So ICFF has always been a huge trade show that I, let's say in the beginning of my career at AD Show, I would walk through ICFF and I would say, oh my God, wow, this is what I want AD Show to look like. And I think unfortunately because of COVID and then again, because of tariffs, it just seems like trade shows in general have taken lots of hits, right? And especially the time of year with Milan getting stronger, Copenhagen getting stronger, I feel like ICFF has become more of a local show, which I think is actually really great as well.

45:46New York has so much good design. And ICFF, Claire and Odile, the brand directors reached out to me and we started talking around November. And they wanted to refresh ICFF to bring in a new section. And we brainstormed. We talked a lot. They also were thinking about collectible design. I didn't think it was the right idea because I think there's too many options for collectible design right now, meaning shows that present to collectors are their audience versus trade, which is a trade show, right? So that's a differentiation. And so we started talking more and more. And there are so many incredible independent studios in New York City where they come from Pratt, Parsons, RISD.

46:36I mean, really, really talented people making beautiful furniture. And it's not necessarily collectible, not because it's not fine, gorgeous furniture, but just because that's not their business model. And I felt like after a few conversations over the years that some of the designers felt like they didn't have a home. They didn't have a place to show. And so I wanted to create a space for those people within Lookbook, which is a section in ICFF. So I got to work starting in November and started building out the section and inviting people that I had worked with at AD Show or whose work I really admire.

47:16And it was such a pleasure, dentist because after ad show i was a bit shell shocked it's such a hard trade shows are a really hard job it takes it out of you it's like four days of abuse and then you're in the fetal position for a month after it's really difficult and stressful and physically everything and all your exhibitors are stressed out because this is so meaningful to them so as a sensitive person it was it was kind of a lot for me and i said i don't think i'm ever going to do a trade show ever yeah but when this came along when i spoke to claire no deal i just sensed that we were so aligned in how important and meaningful it is that these designers get a platform that gets them in front of a lot of people that has actual great roi for them and yeah so i'm very proud to have been to have been part of the show this year well and we've we've had a lot of conversations in the past about so icff is just one component of this whole nyc by design that goes on with activations throughout the city and there was always a little bit of sensitivity oh i know we're not milan but there's a lot going on and it seems to have gotten more traction more momentum, you tell me what your sense of that is.

48:47But how do you describe what NYC by Design is and what it has become all about? Well, I don't love to call it NYC by Design. I really think they desperately need a rebrand. I think New York City deserves an amazing New York design week. And I think that NYC by design hasn't been getting the word out as much as I think they should be. And I think that's due to a few different factors. The fact that it went to Sandow and then Sandow gave it now a nonprofit again. So there's a bit of change of hands. So of course, when there's change of hands, there's, you know, it takes a little bit of time to get things going.

49:32And as of now, the design week is essentially just people independently doing exhibitions that align with the timeframe. So when there's 30 of those, when there's 50 of those, there's your design. So does design week really need a platform that is just for New York design week? Yeah, sure. But it happens anyways. It happens with or without New York by design. New York Design Week is happening. So I have about 34 events on my radar. There are a lot more. And I'm noticing hotels collaborating with young studios, which I think is fantastic because, again, just like fashion, you got the fashion big bucks, you got the hotel big bucks, let's do something cool with the young people or with the emerging people.

50:23And so there's a showcase at 11 Howard that looks amazing with design hotels. There's a showcase that's really on the top of my list called One Night Stand. And it's a play on words. Dennis, don't get concerned. Okay. Okay. No, no. I'm sure it's appropriate. I'm sure it's nothing untoward. I saw you over there getting nervous. You know? And that one is taking place at Citizen M. And those are my friends, American Design Club that partnered with them and they're doing a showcase of nightstands. Just really fabulous stuff going on. And it's not overwhelming like Milan. You mentioned Copenhagen and it sounds like that show has gotten a lot of momentum as well.

51:07Yes? It's absolute madness in Copenhagen. Is that right? It is because it's teeny tiny city. Right. And the design week itself is really a giant press tour, more than anything. So rather than having a trade show, every single showroom opens up. And then of course, pop-ups come. People from the USA, people from other countries will get an empty space and activate beautifully. And so the three days of design event itself is three days where this organization ships in journalists from all four corners every magazine is represented and you are expected to wake up at the crack of dawn and go to every single showroom on your list it's a very tough tour you can't work you you are just there to take part to absorb Exactly.

52:07So some journalists don't want to do that anymore. But I went and I had a fabulous time off tour. There is so much going on. And I think that what's going to happen is that it's going to really be known as Copenhagen Design Week. Because again, three days, which used to be everything, is now becoming just a part of everything. So it's really expanding a lot. Okay, well, that's exciting. Before we wrap up, let's talk about Paris really quickly, too, because another, I mean, another situation where you've got Deco off and lots of people coming for all of the fabric and fun activations within the city itself.

52:48And then you've got this great big show, Maison et Objet. And I wonder what your take on how all of that is feeling these days. hmm paris is the best place in the world after you know copenhagen in june okay paris year round yeah maybe not january i've actually never been to deco off but i go to paris about three to four times a year for different fairs okay maison objet i don't have business there really you It's such a big trade show. And I think Maison Objet is more useful to someone who potentially owns a store, let's say, like more wholesale relationships. So I've sort of lost interest in Maison Objet as a fair itself.

53:37But the design week, again, used to be very strong. Yes. And similarly to New York Design Week, used to be very strong and then sort of like came down a bit, COVID times, maybe less foreigners like bringing work and pop-ups and things like that. So it sort of dipped down a bit. And like a pendulum, it might come back. We'll see. But I do think the most interesting thing in Paris and the most interesting trade show takes place now in Fashion Week. And it's called Matter in Shape. And so I would say that if we have any fancy, fabulous listeners who are just looking for any good excuse to go to Paris, which you don't need one really, I would say that I think it's March.

54:21Okay. So it's warmer. Warmer than in January. Yeah, it is. But I have to double check on that. It's on the design release. But Matter in Shape in Paris is a fabulous show. It's very unique. Again, it's for the trade, which makes it interesting to me because it's sort of taking this trade show model, but making it more elevated. And what's being shown at Matter in Shape? So what are you seeing if you come over there for that? Independent design and collaborations. So you have CERAX showing collaborations with different brands as someone, as like a bigger brand, I would say. and then you have some galleries which I think is very smart to showcase to a trade audience if you're a gallery and everything in a very contemporary way they even had a section for fragrance for perfume it was a really really fun show I enjoyed it a lot okay are you gonna try and get to Copenhagen in in June I am 100 % going to Copenhagen in June okay and I'll see you in London in September right well I I wish I wish that I could be there in September we'll we'll see if my if my new overlords feel like sending me there, we'll find out.

55:26But we will definitely see each other. Should we not even call it NYC by Design? What do you want? New York Design Week. Okay. We'll call it New York Design Week. Hopefully you and I will bump into each other at some fun event there, if not certainly at ICFF. And I look forward to seeing you in person then. But in the meantime, thanks so much for taking the time to talk with me. Thanks, Dennis. So much fun.

55:54And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. What caught your eye? Michael Anastasiada has caught my eye. He's a great, I guess he was originally born in Cyprus. Now he lives in London, a great international product designer. One of these guys who works with everybody from B &B Italia to Floss and everything in between. He closed his eponymous lighting brand, his brand with his own name on it recently, which was interesting. I mean, I wonder if there's sort of an economic reason behind it, but he does a ton of work with these big brands.

56:25And I'm guessing that there's probably a factor of it's a lot easier to design the stuff and then hand off all the grunt work of making it and selling it to somebody else than it is to deal with inventory and all that good stuff. So maybe some further conversations there. But he's a great designer and he makes great lighting. So I was interested to hear that. Another thing I also caught in my eye, which is a social media platform that I actually like, which is this one called Rec League. which was recommended to me by Amanda Hesser of Food52 who's got a gangbusters account that she set up on RecLeague.

56:55It's a really cool network where it's like, it's kind of like Instagram and that there's a feed of images and stuff, but instead of images that are just random, it's things that you'd recommend. So some of it is like products, some of it is like a book. Other times it's just drink a glass of water is the recommendation. So you get these kind of like funny abstract ideas with really like actual interesting product information. So I think it's really fun. I'm curious if it catches on in the design industry. I'd like to maybe write something about it someday. So if you check it out, let me know. Rec League is what it's called.

57:26Dennis, what caught you out of this week? Good stuff. This one is a story that was in the Weekend Financial Times in the excellent house and home section that they do at the FT. The headline was, Does Your Home Need a Doctor? And this is a conversation I think we're going to be having in the future. But it was a piece about medical specialists being brought in to diagnose some of the health issues in people's homes and weave longevity into its fabric. So I think this whole wellness and longevity conversation that we've been having a lot recently, oh, it's coming for the home. And it turns out that the air in your home might be worse than the air outside.

58:05So what are we going to do about that? The industry has to really figure that out. And so this article tells you some of the specialists who are working in the field. And again, I'm sure it's a conversation we're going to be having in the future. Sleeper sofa, that's the answer. More of those. Definitely. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda.

58:43I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.