The Thursday Show: Accessible design is in demand. Is the industry ready? Plus: Another big retailer goes bankrupt

24:48Like there's a lot of stuff behind the scenes, stuff that happens off the record, or maybe it's a lawsuit that we just don't know about where a photographer or a photo agency is getting a lot more aggressive about telling brands and designers to, hey, stop sharing our photographer's work without permission. It's copyrighted. You have to pay us and we are going to pursue legal action if you don't. And so I think that's bubbling up a little bit. Are you are you hearing the same thing too, Dennis? I do. I hear it a lot. And I know we've talked about it in the past on the on the show. We talked about some images that were either doctored to use for ads or people are using designers' photographs all the time.

25:25And I hear from a lot of designers, oh, listen, I know you think it's very nice that you're reposting my image. But really, I sort of wish you wouldn't. And so I definitely think that there is a challenge. And we've talked in the past about what options do these photographers have? And so I can't imagine that this photographer really thinks she's likely to win a$300 ,000 settlement for these images. But it seems as though more than anything, she wants to send a message around this case and draw attention to what is a really significant issue. And photographers are trying to stand up for themselves more and more and appropriately so.

26:11Yeah, well, it's really complicated. You know, I think for a long time in the, you know, the social media age, let's say 2010 on, you know, there's sort of this tacit bargain that I don't think anyone made consciously, but it just sort of emerged, whereby, you know, if you're a brand putting together a national advertising campaign, of course, you're going to pay the photographer. But if you're just sharing something to your Instagram stories or posting on Facebook, generally people haven't sought permission for the photographer. And I think photographers have maybe not loved it, but, you know, taken the bargain of, OK, well, this is exposure for me.

26:41Maybe maybe I'll get hired. You know, you know, the designer is my client. I want them to feel free to do what they want to do. I'm not going to get too upset about this. But I feel like that was just a very tenuous bargain and no one really thought about what it actually meant. And I think a lot of photographers are rightly thinking, well, this is promotion. This is marketing. Why am I not getting paid for it? On the other hand, I do think that in some cases, what is really the marketing value of sharing one post on social media one time? Really, it's not$150 ,000. So I think what I would love to see emerge from this is a new kind of consensus around what is worth what and what you can do around photos because it's clear the system we have is not working for everybody, and I think we need a new one.

27:24And I'd love if we could get there without fewer lawsuits and more agreement. But I know that's not really the way that things work. Well, I agree. And I think, and we've talked about this, I think so many photographers, and I know some of my friends who are photographers felt very marginalized or that the value of their work has been diminishing over the years. People think they can just do it all with their phones. People think they can, you know, get something done on the cheap, so to speak. And I think that establishing greater value for their work and also better understanding all of the rules around usage, which I know is complicated for a lot of designers who think that they're buying all of the rights to use it on their sites and in a book.

28:09and many photographers come back and say, no, no, this was actually limited to this usage and that usage. I agree with you. New rules, more clarity around this whole issue would be welcome, I think, on all sides. Next up, we're going to talk about designer fashion, Fred. Yes. This week for Business of Home, our managing editor, Haley Chouinard, wrote a great piece that explored all the angles of how designers dress, whether it's the pressure to put together an outfit that reflects their aesthetic or snagging a new client because of a particularly chic outfit. And who better to discuss designer fashion than a podcaster who barely makes it out of a hoodie most days?

28:47Well, you actually, I think, are an exemplar of this thing. Dennis is rarely seen in public without a pocket square and a very natty dresser. What was your take on all this, Dennis? Well, you know, Fred, I'm a big believer in dress for the job that you want. And dress for success has been how I've lived my life since I was a seven-year-old boy. So this issue is one that really hits home for me in a big way. And I think it's great to have this discussion. It's really fun to hear from designers their perceptions around all of this and what we imagine a designer should look like. What did you think?

29:27Well, to be clear, the piece is not advice on what a designer should look like. Let's just stake that right now. I am in no position to say that. Business of Home is not taking a perspective on that. It's more just sort of an exploration of fashion in the design industry. And, you know, one interesting thing that Haley pointed out in her piece is that I think historically designers dressed much more conservatively. You know, she made the point that you're not going to see Sister Parrish in some sort of crazy get up. And, you know, even though Mario Boado was the Prince of Chins, he was always in a dark conservative suit.

29:59It was really it was a much more conservative industry and, you know, in the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. Funny enough, I was in the offices of Coleman and Kravis yesterday talking with Ellie Coleman and some of her team. And Ellie was recalling the early days of starting her firm and her uniform of pearls, shoulder pads and a big engagement ring. And over time, she had to tone that down a bit. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all part of this sort of, I don't want to say it's unspoken, but sort of an angle of the industry that people don't talk about that much, which is that I do think people hire interior designers.

30:34I mean, obviously you hire a designer to help you organize a renovation project to make your home look beautiful, make your life easier. But there is an element of buying into a lifestyle or being taken with a designer's lifestyle or feeling that their life is put together in a way that you kind of want to be part of. And I think that to some degree, designers dress to fit into the social milieu of their clients. And that's why you have stuff like what Ellie Coleman was talking about and the way that Sister Parrish used to dress. And over time, as dressing has gotten more informal, designers, I think, feel more free to just dress the way they want to dress.

31:08And they're obviously all creative people. And so you see these interesting examples of designers who dress like their work. Like I think of Scott Meacham Wood, who wears a lot of plaid, and he loves plaid. And Naz Nazawa is in the piece you were talking about, how she used to dress more all in black. But her design style is very maximalist. And now she dresses in a very maximalist way. It was just sort of an interesting look at how, you know, that particular thing has changed a bit over the years. No, I agree. And Nas talked about how as she became more comfortable with herself and was more confident in projecting the image of her true self, she took a lot more chances with her wardrobe.

31:49And I think you get a sense of where she might take you on a design adventure from how she shows up. And who doesn't want to spend more time with Nas? Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I think another interesting sort of angle of the piece is like so many designers have told us over the years, this comes up a lot in our editor in chief, Caitlin's 50 States project that where she talks to one designer from every state every week. You know, so many designers have gotten a job simply by being in public and wearing a cool outfit. And someone's like, oh, I love your earrings. I love that jacket. And that turns into a conversation.

32:23And then that person turns into a client. That's a very, very common thing. And I think it was just, you know, a really interesting example of how, you know, your personal style can play into your business. I think that's especially true in the Instagram age where every person is so much more of a part of their business that I think there's also this, the flip side is there's this pressure, you know, Haley spoke to this one designer who was talking about like, I want to be able to go to the gas station and not feel like I have to dress up. Like I'm going to bump into one of my clients, but there's this pressure to sort of like convey a lifestyle all the time that's sort of, you know, sort of the interesting flip side of that opportunity.

32:56Well, and you mentioned Scott Machen Wood and in the article it mentions Max Humphrey, who is another designer I admire a great deal and who immediately conveys a sense of what his design style is like from the way that he dresses and this camp style. Yeah, kind of like low-key Americana. Yeah. Right? And he's always got a hat and the whole thing. And again, I think he's right on brand. I worked for a designer years ago who talked to me about neutralizing her wardrobe because she didn't want to overshadow or she didn't want to make too much of a statement to appear in any way competitive with a client, which I thought was so interesting.

33:38And so I think a lot of designers do really give a great deal of thought to how they appear in the world. and with good reason. No, absolutely. And it's just, you know, everybody does it a different way, but it's just fun to think about. It was, I think, a great, just fun summer piece from Haley. And, you know, if nothing else, a recommendation to check this out and a reminder for me that I need to reinvest in dressing for success. Maybe you can give me some pointers after the podcast is over, Dennis. I'll lend you some pocket squares. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including strategies for finding new clients and advice from Sean Lowe about weathering a difficult moment in the design industry.

34:19We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

34:27We're taking a quick break from the show to highlight Global Views, a proud member of the Surya brand family. Celebrated for its charismatic approach to design, Global Views has been a leader in luxury home decor, furniture, and lighting for over 25 years. Committed to supporting the design community, Global Views delivers exceptional quality and avant-garde designs crafted by global artisans. Global Views invites you to explore its product range, request a catalog, and find endless inspiration at GlobalViews.com.

35:05okay i am joined today by rob van verick who is the chief design officer at michael graves design rob welcome thank you so much for having me i'm delighted to have you and there's so many things that i want to discuss with you but i i want to start by refreshing people's memory a little bit about Michael Graves' design. Michael Graves sadly left us 2015, but you and the team with you very much carry on his legacy and his work. And I wanna hear a little bit about that. Our company has been around for over 60 years now. And Michael was one of the most famous architects in the world. He was very famous for his modernist architecture when he was younger, which as he got sort of notoriety and famous for that he walked away from it who does that michael did that and it was because he felt he had to continue explaining what his work was about and he didn't want that to be the case he wanted people to understand what the work was about so his more humanist approach to architecture really put him on the map and that has translated into these momentous relationships, starting with the product design with Alessi, the Italian manufacturer, and this most iconic Alessi whistling bird tea kettle.

36:35And of course, so many people are familiar with Michael because of the work that we did with Target and being Target's first external design collaboration in 1999. And we were there for 15 years doing products across the store, thousands of products. And that's really where the Design for All movement was born and started. And it wasn't too long into that when Michael became paralyzed in 2003, which was when I started with the company. So I only knew Michael in a wheelchair. The first time I met him was at a hospital. And it really became the mission of our company to become the most accessible design brand.

37:24Tell me what that came to mean. So to become the most accessible design brand, tell me what that translates to. The reality is, if you're listening to this, at some point in your life, you will have this experience. And so accessibility really matters in being able to navigate a space, being able to use something with ease, despite your, you know, disability or injury or condition. And so we think about it in terms of this acronym your ADLs your activities of daily living and what these are are all of the things that you do in your life that allow you to live independently so this is bathing yourself this is being able to get dressed cook and prepare food clean your home organize your home get around you know your mobility if you can't do these things then you're unable to live independently And a lot of the times you can't do those things, not because of you and your abilities, but because of the environment and the way it's designed.

38:34We're brought together, Rob, you and I, because of this collaboration that you've recently introduced with Pottery Barn. And I want to talk about that because it's the result of what sounds like many years of research and consultation and design. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts about why this particular area of your interest and passion and work isn't getting more attention. We're told so often about the aging baby boomers and that 70 million plus people are going to be over the age of 65 any minute. And they're going to need all sorts of support. and we talk about aging in place. But it doesn't seem to be showing up in a meaningful way in the design world yet.

39:29And as you and I were joking right before we came on the air, often the products that we do see are kind of clumsy looking or aren't sort of elevated and elegant or sophisticated and almost seem like an afterthought. And so I wonder why more attention isn't being paid to this area. When you think about accessibility, when you think about the products that are out there, you know, one of the first ones that will come to mind for anybody is a wheelchair. And the reason is, is that we see the icon of a wheelchair everywhere we go in our daily lives. That is the symbol of disability because it is associated with handicapped parking spots and accessible entrances.

40:12and it doesn't fill us with this reaction of like desire you know they're not designed in a way that's aspirational you know a bed rail that you might have to put on the side of your mattress nobody is saying i can't wait to have that and that has been at the heart of our sort of problem with this market all along is that people should be encouraged to live a more proactive lifestyle People should think about living their life and having a future without sacrifice. And that's what the Pottery Barn Collection allows us to realize. We have designed great home health care medical equipment with our friends at CVS Health.

40:59We've designed a better transport chair for the hospital with our friends at Stryker. and in both of those projects we did all of this upfront research with users and especially with the transport share with striker it was always funny to ask people about wheelchairs and hear the feedback of it's a chair with wheels what else are you going to do and that captures the mindset of everybody around this topic. It's so ingrained in how safety is something that is devoid of style. And we've always said that doesn't have to be the case. We can make these two ideas come together and have safety and style together.

41:46And so when we launched our CVS collection a couple of years ago pottery barn that same year shortly after they had been working on something too and they've have a whole collection of accessible products home office bathroom they launched at the same time we had a conversation it was this mutual admiration we both were preaching to our own choirs and um it was it was frankly one of the most uplifting conversations i've had because i I thought, finally, we're having a conversation with a leader of a company who we're not having to convince them that this is a need. We're both convinced. Now it's just a decision of what do we do?

42:31Where do we start? And for us, we decided we really wanted to focus on the bedroom because the bedroom is such a personal space. It is the room that you spend the most time in in your home. but there's a lot of really interesting things that you only learn about as you age because nobody's going to talk about this. This is not what's coming up at the cocktail party, right? I get it. Exactly. Nobody's like, hey, how many times did you have to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom? But the reality is that we get up more and more in the middle of the night. And even if you have no disability, there's this idea of situational disabilities.

43:11And so if you're getting up in the dark, that you have a situational disability where you're not able to see your surroundings very well. And I've walked into furniture. I've gone right over it in the middle of the night. And it was a painful experience. You know, if I was over 65, there would be a lot of different outcomes to having a fall like that. So there's a lot of thought put into this collection around fall prevention and just the ability to help people get in and out of the bed. But the beautiful thing about this is we baked in all of this functionality into Pottery Barn's top selling collections.

43:52What we're trying to do is redefine the stigma that exists around these products. And your home doesn't have to look like a hospital. I feel like this issue was flagged some time ago, and I feel like it was many years ago when I first heard about aging in place and we wanted to be aware of this. But I didn't see innovative new products being developed all over the place. And I follow the design world pretty closely from my perch here at Business of Home. And I'm not inundated with product that is addressing this issue. And I'm trying to figure out why that is. We know this is both an issue and an opportunity.

44:40And I guess part of it is I don't understand why more companies, more organizations aren't jumping on it. Companies have so much to navigate just to keep their company going in a profitable direction and a growth direction. And back to that conversation, as soon as somebody comes in and says, let's talk about aging, let's talk about disability. It's, you know, you hear the needle scratch across the record and everybody looks at you like, ah, party's over. Because it's so hard to envision how to do it in a really successful way. That's why it was so exciting to have that conversation with Marta Benson of Pottery Barn.

45:23Because we both knew that this was a possibility. And so that started this process of exploration and support, frankly, from the top down at the entirety of Williams-Sonoma of understanding that they wanted to make this part of their core. So to me, that's a signal that there's a tipping point happening. for the last 10 years social media has really helped shine a light on this because it allows people who are experiencing the inaccessible world to share that and for others to experience it you know whether it's difficulty with airline travel whether it's just difficulty getting into a space that should be ADA compliant, but isn't quite.

46:17So there's been a lot of, just now, I think we're starting to see companies say, okay, we believe that this can be a business, but how do they do it? And who's going to do it? And who's going to do it right? So it's a space that I love living in. I love getting that like, hey, nobody's ever done this before. So why don't you take a crack at it? I talk to people all the time about what I do and it terrifies them that I live in this space of every single day I have to sit down and come up with something brand new and that creativity is at the heart of my career. But it's really about making connections.

46:56It's really about connecting these sort of separate ideas and putting them together in a way that you're not inventing something that's never been done before, but you're definitely putting a composition together that nobody's seen before, just like a musician writes a new song. Just like we saw 25 years ago with Target, where people thought, well, if I want something that's nicely designed, that's going to cost a lot of money. If I want something affordable, I'm going to go to Target. And Target said, wait, we can do better design, can't we? And I hope to see other people doing things as well that are different takes on this idea.

47:33How long ago did you first start this conversation with Pottery Barn? How long did it take to go from the initial enthusiasm to actually the product? We had our first conversation almost two years ago. So we got started very quickly. And I would say much more quickly than we normally experience in that sort of dating with a new partner, you know, conversation of, well, what's it going to be? And what's the contract? because there is this whole upfront business side of it that you have to navigate your way through and you have to try and desensitize yourself to because it can be kind of you know can crush that creativity a little bit so it was about two years and the design process of that was probably about 12 months because you know you've got that upfront work that we do and then there's a whole period of time where products have been getting manufactured and shipped and inventoried and catalogs have been getting laid out and videos produced.

48:40So there's that whole awesome marketing side, which internally, we've always talked about this idea of quiet accessibility. We're not looking to shout it and say, oh, no, no, no, this is different and you must care. We're looking to say, no, no, no, you can get exactly what you want. But we've thought a little bit more about it. And we've made some modifications to the products so that they're just going to naturally work better for you. As you talked about earlier, you've baked it in to existing product that they, or lines that were already popular. You've just incorporated these additional elements.

49:19And as you say, you might not even notice them at first, but but you watch that you watch that very moving nine minute video of of seeing people interact with the with the product and and you see how transformational it is absolutely and some of these you know for anyone listening some of these details are things like on the dressers that we designed the top front and side edges are raised slightly and they're rounded out on the inside so So it makes for a comfortable grip because a lot of people will do what we call furniture surfing. So as you move through your space, you're kind of holding on to different pieces around you for balance.

50:01So we wanted to make sure that the dresser was going to operate that way deliberately. And then you get the added benefit of containment. So items aren't going to roll off of the dresser. We've met with countless people who have had an earring fall off of their dresser, and And they will let that earring sit on their floor for a week until somebody comes to their house to clean. And they'll ask them to pick that up because they know they shouldn't risk bending over to pick it up. Because if they fall, they know they can't stand back up. If you can integrate it into their daily rituals and just make it happen effortlessly, then you have a winning offering, a winning product, a winning solution.

50:44What do you hope comes out of people seeing this collection and understanding the work behind it? What are you hoping happens as more people recognize the opportunities around all of this and the need to pay attention to this field of work? My hope from this collection is that this is the beginning of a future where accessibility isn't spoken about as a feature. It's just part of our daily lives. And it's an expectation. Just the way design is an expectation now at an affordable price. We have so many great choices in our lives today, 25 years later, that we didn't have. All of these objects around us are beautiful.

51:37We have endless choices. We are so fortunate. So now let's have the same effect with accessibility. Let's make sure everything's easy to use and it works for the broadest audience possible so that we don't even have to have this conversation anymore. So much of our audience is high-end interior designers. and I wonder what you think they should be thinking about more as they think about the work that they're doing. Because their clients are the very people that we're talking about. We're all told that all the people that really have the money right now are the baby boomers, right? The millennials, we wish them well, good luck.

52:21But right now, the baby boomers have all the money. And the baby boomers are the ones that are rapidly getting over the age of 65 and need people to be thinking about their longevity. So, I mean, what should the design industry be thinking about with all of this? So what we're hoping to see for the interior design industry is that they can finally have that conversation with their client about accessibility and not not in a way where it's like, hey, we want to put a bent tube on the side of your bed. They can say, hey, there's this great collection from Pottery Barn. They've really thought about accessibility in a way that is useful to you now, but will become more useful to you as time goes on.

53:16At the end of the day, that is the truth. If you pull your back, if you bang up your knee or sprain your ankle, any of these things where you might find yourself having to use crutches or a cane, or you're just in a lot of pain and limited range of motion, all of this thinking in this furniture is going to help you through that moment in a way that your furniture that you have in your room right now absolutely does not. You mentioned earlier that one of the challenges that the furniture industry faces is that so often these companies are just focused on trying to survive and trying to get through whatever economic cycle they're in at the time.

53:56And so to say to them, gee, we want you to be thinking longer term about accessibility or some of the different things that you and I have just been talking about, in addition to everything else that you're trying to make happen. I wonder, is it your sense that they need to see this work? They need more proof of viability with all of this to say, oh, we should be devoting more time and effort and energy to collections like this. Yeah, I think that is, you know, sort of business 101 for so many companies is if they see it working for someone else, they'll figure out how to how to do it themselves.

54:37and what is hardest always is to be first because being first comes with a lot of cost and expense in research and development it comes with a lot of cost and expense in advertising and marketing and telling the story and educating the customer so pottery barn gets a lot of kudos for saying you know we're not going to wait for somebody else to do this we're going to do this we're going to do it with the expertise of Michael Graves Design because this is a space that we've been working in for over 20 years. And our expertise is really about working with the community that is going to benefit from these ideas.

55:19And then we will see that shift. We will see companies take note. Um, so now really the reliance is on the audience, the customers to say, yes, we like it. We, and we want to buy it. So I certainly hope that that is, that is where we are. Often we learn that people are reluctant to acknowledge, uh, an issue or, or a problem that they might have. And I wonder if in your research and in the work that you did with so many people, did you find that some people just didn't want to acknowledge the need for accessible furniture? That just seemed like a step that they didn't feel comfortable taking. Absolutely.

56:08So we worked with a partner about a decade ago, and they dug into this publicly available study. It's the National Health and Aging Trends Study. And what was interesting from a statistic that came out of that study, which that study was with, I want to say, around 10 ,000 individuals, there is a fairly large percentage of Americans who are over the age of 65 who are willing to use some sort of equipment, some sort of product to live their life the way they want to live it, to live independently. And it's somewhere around like 34, 35%. So there is enough of a mindset that is welcoming to these changes.

56:58Now, the stigma is going to be rooted in just generations of perception around the products that are used, some of the just sad truths that come with aging. You know, that historically we've always given this narrative of loss around aging, but that's shifting as it should. You know, there's a lot more discussion around the benefits that come with aging, the freedom that comes with aging, the things that you get to do now that you're older, the information and experience you've developed that allow you to do new things that you couldn't have done when you were younger. So there is a shifting narrative around aging.

57:38For a couple of decades, many people in business have been waiting for baby boomers to change the conversation around aging. I think it's starting to happen. And if it does start to happen, does that mean for you and for Michael Graves, does that mean a whole bunch of other companies showing up on your doorstep and saying, we want to collaborate, we want to partner? Herman Miller's calling and they want to do a big furniture rollout or you're being sent down to High Point, North Carolina to talk to all the big makers. I mean, is that what you hope can come out of this? Yeah, we are a company that is based on partnership.

58:19You know, we really don't make any products on our own. It's always in collaboration with a larger partner. um so yeah our our entire livelihood is based on forming new relationships um but it's also based on fostering the ones that we have and you know the pottery barn relationship you know we have what is launching now but we're always excited to sort of see what can come from the future of that relationship and as i mentioned to you earlier this idea of activities of daily living all of the things that drive our ability to live independently, there's so much more opportunity beyond furniture.

58:59And we're here to have those conversations with anybody who wants to have them. Yeah, there's going to be much more heightened awareness around this conversation now that a company with the cachet of Pottery Barn and the cachet of Michael Graves are saying, hey, this matters and showing a way to do it that is frankly just stunning. Rob, I want to thank you so much for your time. I know you're getting off on your vacation, so you're especially generous to make the time to talk with me this morning. Anytime. This was really my pleasure and thank you so much for having me.

59:43And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, We'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? Yes, well, last week after doing, what, seven caught my eyes? I'm going to pare it back to just one. I was having a conversation with someone in the catalog marketing business, and we were talking about something totally unrelated. But one thing she bought up that was really interesting was that she was looking at all the fall catalogs that were coming out in a month or so. and she was saying that she was surprised to see so much color that a lot of home retail brands are really investing in color in a way that they hadn't for a long time.

1:00:19We've had this sort of beige-y look for a while and she made the point that you know there's been so much economic doom and gloom for the past year for the past two years and while that's depressing ultimately it is pushing people to change to try new things to you know to break free of what's been going on and just to get outside of their comfort zone because it's just not working and I think that that's kind kind of the flip positive side of all of this, you know, all this bad news we seem to be getting is that it will push people to change. We will see new ideas. We will see new looks. Maybe the post-home boom slump is what finally kills every boucle.

1:00:55But I don't know. I just, I thought it was a interesting, you know, insight into maybe there's a lot more color coming and be a reminder that, you know, a down period leads to positive change, or it certainly can. I agree. That's, That's so interesting. And it was interesting that our house referenced their full catalog. Yes, they said color. They said color is coming into the stores. Yeah. Well, maybe RH Color will finally launch after six years, was it? What caught your eye this week, Dennis? Well, actually, color is a really great segue for what caught my eye, which was I had the pleasure of visiting the new Peter Dunham showroom at the New York Design Center, which had just opened days before I arrived.

1:01:35It's called Home and Garden on the seventh floor, and it is nothing short of spectacular. Talk about color. There's striped grass cloth wallpaper. There's actually quite a few different wallpapers around the showroom. And he brought his Hollywood at home look and feel from California to New York, and it is a bright ray of sunshine, Fred, I have to tell you. I'm hoping he's going to let me office out of the space in the future. Well, at the very latest, I'll see it at What's New, What's Next, so I can't wait for that. Yes. Well, I mean, I think people shouldn't even wait. They should get there now and check it out before the crowds of What's New, What's Next.

1:02:15But it's definitely a highlight, and congratulations to the team for pulling all of that together because that is not easy to do. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.