The Thursday Show: Change at the top for MillerKnoll. Plus: Why Leanne Ford doesn't take on clients

24:18It's the K-shaped economy is very real. And though, you know, these IPOs will mint a lot of millionaires, it's not a large group of people. And this will certainly like benefit, you know, only or pretty much mainly the luxury zip codes in San Francisco, whereas I feel like it'll make it harder for every day. say, 100 ,000aires and low-key millionaires to find a spot. So that's an angle of the story as well. But we're going to try and see the positive and hope that AI money turns into fabric. That's my hope anyway. Well, and I know that many designers are concerned about AI coming for the design world in some way.

24:52So the irony of rooting for this massive wealth creation coming from this industry is also a little, as I say, it's a little ironic to be rooting for that. I am rooting for business of homecoming public and the huge fortune that will come our way when that happens one day. I can't wait for I'm going to I'm going to spend it all on fabric when that happens. So don't worry. Exactly. Exactly. Moving on, we're going to talk about wellness for The Wall Street Journal this week. Peter Grant explored why one luxury condo building in New York will soon house a high end longevity clinic. I love this story on so many levels, Fred, that I just can't wait to discuss it.

25:33And I feel like I need to go for an MRI right now. Well, it's not just an MRI. It's genetic testing. It's whatever biomarker monitoring is. It's whole body scans. It's a whole thing, this longevity industry. And this is a great story about how that's kind of crossing over with the residential real estate world. It's a luxury condo building, as you mentioned, and they had some office space in the whole complex. And they could have given it to some random tech company or they could have given it to business of home or whatever. But they thought, OK, we're going to get this longevity business in here because the kind of tenant who's going to be in our building probably wants to get this whole body scan.

26:14It's really become a trend among not just the regular affluent, but the super affluent. It's a thing. It is a thing. And it's funny that not too long ago we were talking about aging in place and why isn't that coming up more in the conversation? And we were talking about just making grab bars look better. And that seems like such a minor story relative to, wait a sec, what they really want is entire structures that are all about healthcare being nearby. Yeah, it's funny, right? It's never framed as like healthcare exactly. It's a longevity clinic. Yes, I love the reframing. Yes, exactly. I mean, and this has been kind of like, it's been an obsession of the wealthy.

26:58And I think it only makes sense, right? It's like you've bought everything money can buy. Now let's live forever, or at least live another 20 years. And I think that that's always kind of been a thing as Peter Grant points out in the story. But because there's so much more technology now, because it's much more in the culture, I think that people are exploring new ways to kind of get obsessed over living longer and living healthier. And I don't know, There are dumber things to spend money on, certainly. There are 350 of these clinics all over the world, as the story says, but only a few of them are sort of combined with residential projects, less than 20.

27:30I think that number is going to go radically up. I feel like there's going to be a lot of demand for designers who understand what genetic screening is and what advanced heart imaging means, and maybe not incorporating that into everybody's home, but certainly into bigger residential projects. You get the family compound, you get the MRI center in your family compound. you're in great shape. But I do think, look, it's a little silly. And part of me always, you know, worries when we talk about this issue that this is fueling people's hypochondria and how, you know, is this all real science? I don't know necessarily, but I think there's certainly worse things to spend money on.

28:05And I think designers who can figure out a way to incorporate it into their business are going to stand to benefit. So this, you know, that number 20 longevity clinics combined with residential projects is, I think we talk about that in six months, it's going to be double that. I completely agree. And I think there's a huge opportunity to make these places look and feel great. And I think that's the opportunity for designers. I also think going back to our earlier conversation in the show, this is another reason to invest in these long-term relationships. So take advantage of that and be their best friend in all of this is the opportunity for designers.

28:38And I think this is a story that's not going away. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of the latest industry hires and eight lessons for designers who are growing their firms. But first, a quick break.

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30:25And we're back. I'm joined now by interior designer Leanne Ford. Leanne, welcome back to the show. Yay. Hi, Dennis. How are you? I'm great. It's great to have you. I'm so eager to catch up. And I'm longing to discuss your new book, Feel Free Home. You know it. Which will have dropped by the time this show airs. So congratulations on that. And let's get right to it. What's the book all about? You know, Feel Free Home is my second book. I have one out called The Slowdown, and that was about my Pennsylvania home and project and everything involving that. And Feel Free Home is a bit of a retrospective, if I'm allowed to say that at 40-something.

31:10Leanne's already looking back on the life she's had. I'm good. Let's call it. And it's kind of all my favorites from all my projects, but it is inspiring the reader to feel free as they create. So for me, interior design is such an art form first, and to me, it's not a CAD drawing. It is full art and it's subjective. So I kind of walk through how I look at projects and the art of it. Things that add soul to your home, basically. So vintage, personality, music, nature, and texture. So thinking about those specific categories and how you can bring those into every home and project and space. Love it.

31:54And I want to talk more about it, but you started off by saying that in her previous book, The Slowdown, it was all about this house in Pennsylvania. And you explained to me last time you were on the show about this wonderful new life that you were having in Pennsylvania. And then wait a sec, you're no longer there? We are still in Pennsylvania. Okay. I'm like, I start crying. We are still in Pennsylvania. I'm absolutely in love with our little town called Sewickley in Pennsylvania. And I've had a residence there since 2010, actually. And I will continue to. But we had to come back to California.

32:29My husband has a business called Buck Mason, and they're based here. So in efforts to, you know, keep the family unit together, be a good wifey. But I'm a country girl, so I always will probably keep residents in Pennsylvania in some sort. Well, it certainly sounded as if the slowdown life was agreeing with you. I love the slowdown. Well, you know, my family kind of teases me because they're like, Leanne, if this is the slowdown, like I'd like to see you. Because I'm still doing 14 ,000 things. but kind of all with a lot of peace of mind and relaxing and enjoying the joy of the creation, which is truly why I do what I do.

33:11I love creating most in all forms. And it's been really fun to just continue that. And that's what Feel Free Home is mainly about, like the love of creating and giving people permission. I got to say, like, this is not perfect. It will not be perfect. You know, houses are wonky. They're like living, breathing things. So they're wonky. and how do you go with that, enjoy that and work with it? And one of the things that you get into, and I'm so glad that you said that because one of the things that you talk about, make more mistakes. And there's a wonderful framed sort of quote from Bob Dylan in the book that sort of refers to the best lessons you ever learned was sort of through the mistakes.

33:51But I want to talk about that more because I think sometimes people are not uptight, but they're worried about making mistakes. and you want to give them permission. 100%. I mean, you have to, I would say in every field, you know, that's kind of, especially a creative field, let's say, is you have to be ready to try things. They don't work, you fix it. You know, for us, we're very lucky. It's like, oh, I got to repaint. That is not the right color. And that's kind of the worst of it in reality. But creatively and artistically, you have to push it. And if you want to get to something special, I always say, if you're not making anyone nervous, you're not doing anything special.

34:35And that includes yourself. I mean, even though I'm like very loose with like, oh, let's try this. Oh, didn't work. No problem. There's still points you're like, oh, what am I doing? You know? And it just is. Design is such a fluid. You know, I always leave room to create on the fly, which can be like a contractor's nightmare. Like I cannot do it on CAD and then be like, okay, we're good. This is what the house is going to be. I really have to say like, all right, let's open up the walls and then we'll see. And then we'll see. And like kind of do it piecemeal really. But that's when the good stuff happens, in my opinion.

35:13It's funny. There was a whole series of fun Instagram videos about the contractor saying, no, you can't do why you're doing this and why you're doing that. And I so thought of you and I thought, oh. Dennis, so did everybody else. Everybody said that to me. The contractor's like, can't do that. Can't do that. Like, yes. Why are we opening up that wall? Why are we putting that here? And I thought, yeah, no, Leanne Ford is making you. She's making you. And you're going to be so much happier on the other side. You know what? You got to get used to the eye roll. Like, I am very, anybody I give advice to in design, I'm like, you are going to ask your contractor to do this.

35:46They are going to roll their eyes. They're going to say, I've never done that. They're going to say, you can't do that. And you say, yes, we can. Let's try it. Like, do you just have to be okay with the eye roll? I think that's another great lesson is you just have to get used to the eye roll. That is so true. And often, like the knee jerk reaction is no, right? Because it means more time or it means more labor or it means, right? They got to stop what they're doing. And so they want to say no right away to see if they can just shut you down, right? That's right. And you know, I usually like, it seems to me the pattern is no, and then they sleep on it.

36:22And then the next day they're like, okay, I figured it out. But it takes a special person to work with us creative design types. We are not easy, but it's like, you know, it's cute. My contractor now, his name is David. I'll present an idea. He'll be like, ooh, goosebumps. And I'm like, thank you, David, for that. Very supportive. Yeah, all right. Poor guy. So he's getting into it. So last time we were talking, we talked about you calling yourself rather a designer of interiors versus an interior designer. How are you feeling about that today? I probably made that up while talking to you, by the way.

37:03I'm sure of it. That's what I figured. No, I think I just, I'm just a designer. You know, I've loved writing. I'm writing a lot more. I love words. Words is kind of my favorite art form, ironically. and being able to play with that more where it doesn't involve a plumber and the permit office. And like that feels nice right now a little bit. But no, just still cranking out all the art forms, man. Love them all. Well, I love hearing that. And it sounds like you've got a whole bunch of collections that you're working on and you're drinking out of your own mug at this very moment. I mean, right? Yes, that is real.

37:44Yeah, you know, I've had, I really am loving creating for the love of creation, which is like a great joy to be able to do. I feel like I'm at that point in my career where I can play even more. So I have, I did my own tabletop collection, which is at leanford.com. It's called Terra Firma. I did everything out in Portugal. And then I love, love, love doing these partnerships. So I have my second line coming out, L 'Loy, with L 'Loy, which has been a great joy. I'm still cruising at Crate and Barrel and Crate and Kids. So I really get to create for the love of it. I put it out on the planet, and how and where it lives is kind of out of my control, and I'm okay with that.

38:25I can kind of release from that part. Well, and I'm curious, Leanne, how much you pay attention to trends that are going on in the home world, this whole collectible design movement, for example, which has gotten quite big and lots of big auctions have gone down recently. And does that show up for you at all? No. It does not show up for me at all. You know, every once in a while I see what's like happening in the zeitgeist and I'm like, oh, there you are. Welcome. You know, I mean, I think we love what we love, what we love. And like what happens within, you know, trend and things like that is it's like you feel seen and heard.

39:12Like, so that's a great thing. I just don't think it should change your path creatively. I agree. And we touched on Buck Mason. And you've been very involved in that brand and developed multiple stores. And I wonder, and we should tell people what Buck Mason is because it's a super fun brand if people don't know it. Yeah, you know, I can't take much credit. My husband, Eric Ford, who took my last name, thank you very much. And his partner, Sasha Cohen, started Buck Mason, which is a clothing brand, which is now for men and women. But I helped with them with their stores very early on. I helped with probably like 30 or more.

39:49And now there's such a beautiful, well-oiled machine. They now have this coffee shop, Fast Times, which is in Nashville and New York and Abbot Kinney, where I have some of my stuff. So I have kind of a shop and shop, Leanne Ford in Buck Mason in Venice. And I get to kind of do my curated treasures and some of my handmade stuff and little fun trinkets. Well, because I was curious what you were doing in retail. It seems like a really interesting time in retail and that people are trying to figure out where is this all going and who are the great retailers that are hopefully going to come back and make retail sort of fun and exciting again in the home world.

40:29Well, yeah. I mean, there's like hobbyist retail and then there's legit retail. I'm a hobbyist. I'm just going to admit it. Buck Mason is very much legit. Right. So I get to kind of tag along with that. Well, it's nice to get to tag along with. I was wondering, you and I didn't get to speak at the time. Did Pantone reach out to you when they decided on cloud white as their color? Did they go, Leanne, listen, we need to talk? Did they ask me permission to use white? Exactly. Did you sign off on it? You know what? Nobody from Pantone called me. But I will say everybody kind of congratulated me. This was your moment.

41:08You've been telling them all along. Yeah, they're like, congrats on white being the color. I was like, you guys, I've been telling you this for 10 years. Leanne's like, yes, no, I've built a whole brand around it. Thank you very much. Well, it's funny because I have to say I am obsessed with all versions of white, but I really do love a warm white. I just need to tell the world that. Warm white. Like not an optic white. Okay. Like not a sterile white. Not a sterile white. Okay. Yeah. Important. So do you think, so where does cloud fall in that? Is Cloud's great? Okay. Yeah. Okay. So they didn't ask your permission or give you a heads up, but you approve of it.

41:47And that's good. So I want to come back to the book because one of the things that I'm curious about, Leanne, and you and I have talked about this in the past, Feel Free Home is this whole sort of a little bit of a how-to and giving people permission, right? Yeah. And what do you want to have come out of this? Where do you want this to take place? You know, it's actually interesting. Yeah, the how-to, it really is. There's recipes. It's like how we do our floors, how we do our textured walls, how we do different tile things, different kind of weathering things. So I really want to just hand my secrets out, quite honestly.

42:30Like I, you know, have through a lot of trial and a whole lot of error, been able to play with and create some really fun spaces. And, you know, since my very first projects, which is 20 years ago, I guess, if I'm not worried about the date, right? Yeah. I mean, since my very first projects, I've always shared my references, shared my secrets, shared where I got things, shared how I did it. And it's, it's done me right. Like it's been a really beautiful blessing in my career. People when I started out said, you can't tell people where you got that or, you know, then they're not going to get it from you or they're not going to they're going to be able to rip you off.

43:17And I was like, I want them to rip me off, you know, because truly it will always uniquely become your own project. I mean, you can see a picture and verbatim steal it, but it will become its own by sake of what you do with it, what your kind of creative process is, where it goes, where it's living. So no two things are alike. And I like that. And I also am happy to say, this is what I do that works. And I don't need to share with you all the million things I did that didn't work. You know? But know that they exist. Exactly. Yeah, that's right. And that's all part of the process. The other thing that I love, part of what your work does is it makes you feel a certain way.

44:02And often that is relaxed and healed a little bit. I think today is a super stressful world that we're living in, especially if you pay any kind of attention to the news, which more and more people are trying to do less, understandably. But I think your spaces just create this mood and almost this medicine that you give to people. Thank you. Yeah, I feel like your home should be better than your vacation. You know what I mean? Like it, you should want to go home and you should be in whatever your version of serenity and Zen is. I think feeling is everything. It's funny. And I'll, even when I'm talking to contractors or my team and they'll be like on site, I'll be like, how's it feel?

44:47Like, uh, it feels like it's not done yet. Like, but I want, I want feeling first. Um, you know, it's something that does not translate on a computer animated drawing, but really translates in person. And, you know, there's so many stunning, beautiful projects and homes and places that it feels cold and boring when you're actually sitting there. You don't need to sit in there for more than five minutes. And then there's like kind of places that maybe don't translate as much visually. But when you're in it, man, it feels good. You know, like a beautiful, dark, tiny restaurant with low lighting.

45:23Like if you actually look at it, nothing's necessarily special, but it feels special. and that's what I kind of try to translate through my work. So again, Leanne, I'm going to come back to, aren't there clients who want to hire you and have you come and do a bunch of homes for them? And are you, are you, I know there are. And I say, I say, thank you, but no, thank you. And I got to tell you, man, like, like there's a client right now or a would-be client, I guess. And I, it's so hard to say no, because the house is so magical. But at the end of the day, like, I just, I just, I feel happier to give my secrets away, pass the projects on, let other people do these things and kind of work on whatever I want to, however, whenever.

46:15So what's it about? I mean, is it about that you don't want to commit yourself to something that you know is going to be a three, four? I love that you're digging into this. Um, okay. So for me, I never had a firm because my expression in creating is so singular. Like I would rather kind of try, which I did in the book to tell y 'all what to do and you do it in your house. Like that feels happier to me because it's just like unique to each space, which gets, it's really time consuming. Right. So I want like you as the owner, as the individual, as a designer. I mean, I like that designers can steal my tricks.

46:53I like that homeowners can steal my tricks and honestly, renters can steal my tricks. Um, and that feels good for me. I guess not doing other people's houses and projects is because I want, I want everyone out of my way. Right. But like when you have a client, rightfully so they want to be involved. They want to chime in. They want to know how money is being spent. Like that, that is all right. That is correct. But for me, what I want to do doesn't really make sense until it's done. So it's really not for the faint of heart, you know? So if I like, this is why working with Grace Mitchell in Round Top Texas, man, we are each other's best client because we're like, Hey, what if we truck a shack over year like yeah and what if we paint it all page yeah and so she and i creatively and energetically raise each other up and that's been really special and fun and so doing it like that i mean if i was smart and i'm not i'm not in form if i was smart i would just do a house how i want and then sell it and do it again right yeah but like i just would rather work in my ceramic studio and write a book and talk about deep thoughts, philosophies.

48:15Yes, yes, deep thoughts. That's right. So wrapping up, Leanne, where are we going to see you? Are you coming on a big old tour for this book or what's your plan? Dennis, take a guess if I'm going on a book. I'd be pretty surprised if that were the case, but you know. That's right. I'm making it up as I go along on my Instagram, which is leannefordinteriors. I kind of am just saying, hey, we're going to get together tomorrow. So I guess, you know, see you when I see everybody, but I am really very thrilled and happy to just get this book out on the planet. That feels really good to me. Well, I love you coming out just for this.

48:54And I feel honored that you've graced me with your presence. Back at you. And I love the work. I love the book. And I'm wildly fond of you as well. So I thank you for the time. And I look forward to seeing you, you know, not soon, but one day. Right? That's right. Well, no, Texas, you come on down. Yes, in Round Top. I can't wait for that. That's right. Thank you for having me. This is so fun.

49:50roll out more new home stuff seemingly every week. And what I've noticed is that they have a new thing going where they do these pop-ups, where they actually bring the product to a space where people can come in and touch it and see it, feel it, which obviously makes sense. At some point, you need to do that at home. Otherwise, people aren't going to buy your sofas. I saw that guest of the show, former guest of the show, Emily Henderson, went to the pop-up and did a report on it. It was interesting. I think they'll probably need to do more than this long term, but they're clearly serious about home and they're doing stuff and i think that uh my prediction may just come true dennis i don't know i don't know i don't know about the charles cohen one but uh this this one is is on its way i think you can put that house prediction to bed by by proving yourself right on the quince prediction fred this is exciting one of these days one of my predictions is going to come true so what caught you are this week dennis stick around stick around uh one of the things that caught my eye and i was so excited to see sheila bridges who is a collaboration machine.

50:46I never got to get my speaker with the fabulous Harlem Twal on it, but I am absolutely going to get some of the fabulous Walmart collaboration. There are plates and glasses, and it's partially a Philadelphia celebration, partially an American history celebration, and mostly is a celebration of Sheila Bridges just being available to the Walmart masses, which makes me so happy. Walmart's going upscale. I feel like they're calling the luxury Mountain a little bit. I mean, they're not at the top, but our retail correspondent, Warren Schulberg, has been talking about that recently. It's interesting.

51:22I couldn't agree more. Amex Platinum offers Walmart membership as one of its benefits. So, I mean, if that doesn't tell you that they're going upscale, right? Yeah. The other thing that caught my eye was a big acquisition in the home building space. I mean, it would be a big acquisition for some, but Berkshire Hathaway, who is acquiring the home builder Taylor Morrison for$6.8 billion, is only using, wait for it, less than 3 % of the available cash that they have on hand right now. Yes, that's right. How would you like to be Berkshire Hathaway and have over$350 billion just sitting around going, should we buy a home builder today for$6.8 billion?

52:00Yeah, I guess so. But it's interesting because I don't think in any way that it's a call that this is the bottom in the housing market. But I do think that Berkshire Hathaway is a very savvy long term investor. I think they see the value in this. They already own Clayton Home. They own Benjamin Moore. They own a lot of things in and around the housing space. And I think they see, you know, fine, let's let's buy this, ride this out. Let's take an even bigger position in it. I think it's very interesting. What'd you make of this one? Yeah, I mean, I think like when you have that much cash in your bank, you can think very long term.

52:37And I think at some point people are going to buy homes again. It's going to happen. It may not be in 26. It may be survived to 27, survived to 28. Not too late, but I think it's going to happen. And if you can afford to take this on and wait it out, I think you'll be well positioned. So, you know, again, I think it's something unique to them, but why not? Yeah, no, I agree. And I think this is one of the first acquisitions for Greg Abel, who's taking over at Berkshire Hathaway. And I think this tells us a lot about how they're thinking. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening.

53:10If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castagneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.