The Thursday Show: Colin King is breaking out of the 'beige box.' Plus: What's behind the British design invasion?

25:29And so, you know, we'll just fold that in and we'll keep growing in the US, no harm, no foul. So I agree. And, you know, you were mentioning just before we started recording that some of these guys, Cox London is doing a lot of business here in the U.S. There's a lot of companies that have have made a significant imprint, and I think we're only going to see more of them in the years ahead. So it's a good time to be a British brand in America. And I think it's probably a good time for American designers to shop with them and check them out. Moving on, we're going to talk about shelter magazines.

25:55For Dwell last week, Angela Seratori took a look at the rise of the American shelter magazine. And it was interesting to learn about the term shelter magazine, first appearing in 1946 in a New York Times article, Fred. Yes? Yeah, it's funny because shelter magazine is a term that I think everyone knows and that I mentioned to my friends. Yeah, shelter magazines. I've never heard of that. Don't know what that is. But yeah, I think this is a very charming article that just sort of looked at the history of shelter magazines or design magazines, whatever you want to call them. And it's funny, you know, in the very early days, there was this big focus on what they called domestic science, you know, sort of the art and science of running a household.

26:35And, you know, it's interesting how they've changed over the years. There was a focus on, you know, celebrities that really came around and, you know, with the rise of Architectural Digest in the 70s and 80s. And, you know, what I loved about the piece was how Shelter Magazine sort of reflect, you know, the needs and wants and desires of the American homeowner during a certain era. And, you know, it was a fun article from that perspective. But what it really kind of made me wonder and got me thinking about is, OK, so what will we be looking on 50 years from now as as this era and the next one?

27:08And will there really be any more, you know, big shelter magazines that that launch from here? It really has been a while since it's felt like we've gotten a new one that has any scale or size. Yeah, I think it's such an interesting point. And you and I were talking earlier about the fact that you don't know when you're in the moment that it's going to be so meaningful. But I had the I had the enormous pleasure and privilege of being part of the team that helped to launch Domino back in the in the day. And I feel like Domino magazine rumored to have more than a hundred million dollar budget behind it was the last major, major shelter publication that is ever going to be launched on that scale.

27:54And it's interesting now that Domino is a sister brand of business of home in a very different form and that it's a digital publication now. But it was the last huge investment in that category by Conde Nast. Yeah,$100 million. That's the budget for the podcast, right? Roughly. Roughly. We haven't used it all up yet, thank goodness. But yeah, I know. But it's crazy because like, you know, we we may have it sounds a little sad, but we may Domino may have put the tombstone on the sort of the very last big shelter magazine launch. I think that, you know, the caveat to that is that, of course, that's not to say that people aren't.

28:37They still want to read about things for their homes. You know, El Decor and Architectural Digest and House Beautiful still exist and they still serve a function. I just think that all of the energy and movement now is around TikTok and Instagram and, you know, Substack, dare I say it. So I think that like, you know, in the future, I think that the shelter media will just be increasingly niche. But I also, you know, for what it's worth, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think like as listeners will know, I'm a huge fan of Substack. You know, our guest today is going to talk about his Substack.

29:05I think it's, you know, there's there's something very cool about having these publications that, you know, approach design and shelter from different angles. And I don't necessarily think that this is a bad change in our in our media landscape. But it does sort of make you think like, well, you know, 50 years from now, if Dwell were to write another article saying, you know, look at the development of shelter magazines, there's going to be, you know, there's going to be kind of a hard end to, you know, magazines when you talk about the evolution of those, because I think, you know, that's just sort of the media moment we live in.

29:37Well, I wonder because the physicality of it is what I think is so special. And you see designers so often on Instagram, a designer will share that, oh, I got my hands on some great old copies of Arc Digest or some old shelter publications. And they're so excited to have it in their library and to really go through it in a way that you just can't do with Substack or with a digital publication that way. So I wonder the physical aspect of it. I wonder how that will change. And listen, new magazines are still coming out all the time. Yes, yeah, I know. Right? They're just not coming out on the scale.

30:16And I think we can say with certainty that nobody is going to be putting$100 million behind a new publication in the shelter space. Let's do a Kickstarter, Dennis. Just let's try and raise$100 million. $100 million. Who can we get to join the team to launch the new space? It'll never happen again. And that's remarkable that we can say that with such certainty. But I am very certain of that. And what that says about our time, I'm not sure. We'll see what happens in the future. Who knows? Maybe all the subsects turn into magazines and everyone goes crazy. We'll see. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including Sean Lowe's advice for eliminating project bottlenecks and the best debuts from What's New, What's Next.

31:05We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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32:28And we're back. I'm joined now by world-renowned stylist and creative director, Colin King. Colin, welcome back. Dennis, thank you for having me again. It's always a pleasure to see you and speak with you. I feel the very same way. Fun fact, Colin, you were actually the very first guest when we launched the Thursday show. I'm glad to see it's doing well and still around. You set it up for success. I feel we really owe it all to you. And so that's why I'm having you back, really just to thank you. Well, the bar was on the floor. It was only going to be up from there. Well, it was great. And it seems as if many things have been going on for you since then.

33:17And I wanted to catch up with you about all of them. We'll talk about your new sub stack in a moment. But first of all, just tell me how you're doing and what's going on. I mean, if I had to describe this past year in like three words, I think it would be like humbling, clarifying, and a little weird. You know, there's been a softening both in the work and me and kind of how I've defined success. You know, I used to treat momentum like oxygen. And this year I tried treating silence like oxygen instead. And somehow I'm still here. and it could also be like put in a nutshell as I stopped trying to prove that I could do it all and I started asking if I even wanted to and like spoiler alert not always and weirdly that's like been the most expansive part you know pressure is privilege and and being having all of that momentum and success and and for people to even be interested in your work is like, I'm not going to sit here and have any sort of like self-loathing or self-pity about that.

34:33I'm super grateful for all of that. I feel like my story, you know my story, a lot of this found me. I wasn't quite searching for it. And I had amassed a lot of people around me that, you know, were pushing me in different directions. And it felt like I was a little bit in this, just this whirlwind and kind of almost washing machine of different voices. And I couldn't really find mine. And I was really good at pushing out an aesthetic and also a like social media just feels so, it just feels so easy to me. I know it's very complicated for other people, but it's just feels like my left hand a little bit.

35:14So I was very good at pushing my aesthetic and being able to push all the work that I was lucky to be a part of. But I didn't want to think of noise as creativity. And it just felt like it was getting away from me a little bit. I felt like I was kind of abandoning myself in a way. Tell me what you did to actually pull back and dial things down a little bit. And as you were saying, find a little bit more quiet. I was on the way to signing another book deal. And I was doing a lot with Benny, with Cultured. My world had expanded and grown really big, but I was being asked to basically repeat everything I had done in the previous years.

36:01Just keep going, just keep doing, just keep producing and producing output. And so I feel like I stepped away from some of that stuff. I put the book on pause. I left my role at Cultured, moved on from my PR team, and just really, I almost contracted, you know, after this big expanse, just so I could kind of realign and being able to, like, let the dust settle and find some clarity and really what it is I was doing and what I wanted and where I wanted to go. You've told this story. You gave a talk at the Design Leadership Network, and you told this story of, I think you were in Belgium at the time, talking with a renowned architect, and he was asking you what you did for a living, right?

36:55Right? Yeah. I was at an event in Belgium and this man, this renowned architect was talking to me and he, I was telling him what I did and he's like, oh, you're calling King. And the conversation just kind of escalated, evolved. And then he was like, and don't you want more for yourself? and you know I love designers and architects but you know sometimes similar to doctors they can have like a god-like complex you know they're building things they're making things and it just felt very like pointed and diminutive in the moment but I also thought it was quite surprising because of course these are the normal things we all ask ourselves like don't I want more but But in a way, I've accomplished so much.

37:41And it's not about if I want more. It's like, do I want deeper? Like, how do I actually connect to what I'm doing rather than just producing work and reaching for something a little bit more, just a little bit deeper? Yeah. And you've also written recently about the fact that you saw that there were, whether there were critics or whether there were people who were associating you with a certain aesthetic, as you were alluding to earlier, you certainly became part of what many people saw as this. And you can tell me how best to describe it. This minimalism, this beigeification, people beginning to wonder if, in fact, beige had you on its payroll.

38:34Should we clear the air about that, Colin? You're not, beige doesn't pay you, right? Yeah, no, no, it doesn't. I mean, maybe I wish it did, but it's so interesting because I think I'm not a beige guy. I know that sounds really shocking, but I'm not. I think the reason my apartment, my Tribeca loft ended up the way it did was because I really let the architecture and the palette inform itself. So as soon as I stripped those floors and they were these like kind of yellowy, knotted pine, anything I put on the walls needed to really, I just wanted it to feel enveloping. And I got to this color and I just completely plastered and color drenched the walls and these, or maybe I didn't color drench them, I beige drenched them.

39:23And, you know, I just, I really wanted that place to be a canvas for me. And that's really what it became. It was my playground. It was where I literally styled every single day. And, you know, I think time is the best stylist. And it really did evolve. It went from this beige box to then I had my blue furniture in there from my collection with Future Perfect. And it evolved. And I actually got to redesign it recently for someone else because I did move on. I did move on from there. And it's been a really fun year just buying new things, finding my voice, you know, and finding my true style because a lot of people did want to put me in that beige box.

40:08but the thing that people don't know is I get to work with a very big network of designers and clients and I love the spectrum that I get to work within from the Vincent Van Dysons of the world all the way to the Roman and Williams of the world. You have minimal to maximal and being able to flex those muscles and jump into those stories and into those worlds is an education unlike any other. And yeah, I'm definitely more than just the beige boy. Well, and to that point, I think, and some designers have shared this with me recently, is that you can be so busy and yet is the firm really doing well?

40:59Are we really making a meaningful living in all of this? Or do we need to adjust what we're focusing on and where we're spending our time to make sure that a profitable sort of sustainable business is really being built here? And I wonder if that's part of what is also going on for you. Yeah, completely. And I mean, even that architect asking if I wanted more, I don't know if that meant scalability or just more meaningful work. I'm not sure. I didn't ask exactly what he meant, but I find myself most happy in collaborative scenarios with fewer people. I don't want a big firm. I love to keep it small, but execute big.

41:47I work with a lot of companies and the ones I enjoy a lot are the ones with the smallest teams. But you mentioned pulling back from your PR team and you mentioned just as part of this whole process of rethinking, are you hoping to reintroduce yourself? And is the Substack announcement, and we should talk about that, is that part of it? Is that part of sort of this rebuilding? I don't want to say your image, but how you're thinking about yourself. I don't know about like rebuilding or redefining, but just deepening. I think for me, the Substack was really, it was something that when I had that conversation with the architect in Belgium, I took an, I was in Madrid the following weekend and I took a notebook to a cafe and I just started writing.

42:40And it was the first thing in a few months that had really just flowed through me. And I felt like I was in flow. And so this has just been a really nice way to find a different form of self-expression and connect with my community in a new way. For me, it was really difficult to transition my Instagram because it feels aesthetic and this is what I share and this is how I share it. And I didn't know how to pivot. So this was another medium that could take me to another platform, another way to connect and build an audience and almost feel like a little bit more playful. I feel like people think that I'm like very austere and very serious.

43:25And I wanted people to know that I, my friends think I'm funny and I like, um, I like to have like some polarizing opinions and, and just that I'm much more than whatever I'm sharing visually on Instagram. And, um, and it's been a really fun ride to to just kind of have this unfiltered viewpoint on a lot of different design elements. Like today I wrote one about how I'm against potted plants. I know, I know. You've come out against the potted plant. And I mean, I hope that you're not being bombarded by people, you know. No, I actually haven't been bombarded at all. I've only been like people who have agreed.

44:08But no, I welcome the discourse. You know, I think writing from personal experience and like and really being in the trenches for some of these things is like, I don't know, I have a very unique point of view, I guess you could say. Well, the funny thing is, to the point you were just making, and we were talking earlier about critics or people who felt comfortable writing whatever they were writing about a certain aesthetic that they were associating you and others, some of your good friends. I think you know who I'm talking about. And it was so funny to me because part of me wondered, really, have you met Colin?

44:48Have you spent some time with him? Because A, he's a pretty sweet guy. And I doubt you'd be writing in this tone or this way if you'd actually spent time with him. But also, he's very amusing. And I think, like, as you were just saying, Instagram sometimes doesn't let you convey that somehow there somehow there isn't that that playfulness. So, I mean, you can do it sometimes in stories or you can make funny reels, but that wasn't sort of your thing on that platform. Yeah. And I mean, someone came to me with this idea for the book. I had arranging things in my Instagram bio and a literary agent called me and said, hey, I think I could sell a book called arranging things.

45:31Would you be open to doing a book? And I said, yes. So, again, it was one of those things that found me. I didn't have the foresight of having done a book, having had a lot of friends that had done books, and what it would be like to have to push that book, like the press around it, you know? And when you put anything out into the world, people are going to have opinions. And one of the first Amazon reviews was, if I could have written the worst thing about the book, about myself, I was reading it, you know? And the thing is, it didn't affect me as much as I thought it would, but it did teach me that if you're going to take the good feedback, then you need to take the bad.

46:14And I actually try not to engage that much with very opinionated. I don't read the reviews. It's just like a cup of tea. People take their tea black, with sugar, with milk. I'm not going to be for everybody, and that's okay. and I think as like a small town guy from Baltimore, Ohio, like I want to be liked by everybody, but it's that growing up and growing through things that you're like, well, I will be that in somebody's story and I can't control that. And I'm just going to surround myself with clients and friends and family that I love and admire and that have that admiration for me and live a really happy and joyous free life that, you know, I think also people love to hide behind computers and phones.

47:07And like you said, when they meet you in person, they don't really have much to say. You know, it's people are disarmed face to face. It's just, I have thick skin. I can handle it. Well, and one has to certainly develop a much thicker skin when one puts themselves out into the world. Certainly in the way you do, or if someone is hosting a weekly podcast, one has to be willing to take the heat. And are you seeing Substack, which I find this really interesting platform, and lots of people are thinking of it as sort of blogging 2.0 and just an interesting place for people to speak more freely. and it just seems like it's a place to talk things out.

48:02And it seems like that's part of what you were using it for initially. I mean, you're taking on houseplants. So, I mean, I don't want to say that you're not going after some of the big issues, some of the big players in the industry. I mean, today it's houseplants. I don't know what you're going to go after next in the home world. Yeah, I'm really enjoying the platform. I met with their team. They're really, they advocate their writers and I've never been afraid of failure. I mean, having been a dancer and rejection and all of that stuff has just been kind of second nature to me. So whether or not this thing takes off is, I'm out of the results business.

48:41I'm just into really taking away the urgency of not labeling things right away and just trying different things. Because if I was operating for fear, I wouldn't try anything. I probably wouldn't leave the house. so I failed before and I'm happy to like try something and if it works it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't. It's just been a really enjoyable process for me to be able to write and to have fun and I mean you can sense the tone in some of these. I try and show my personality and there'll be house plans but there'll also be like deeply personal things and there will be a lot of sources coming out.

49:20I don't want to gatekeep. I love democratic design and I will be sharing sources as well. And right now, I mean, I think I'm four posts in. I'm just trying to see, you know, throw things at the wall and see what sticks. And it's been an adventure and it will continue to be. You were talking recently about stillness as a strategy. And I wanted to better understand what you mean by that and what that means for you. You know, it's funny because I guess this doesn't make any sense. I was about to say I'm chasing stillness, you know, which I guess sounds poetic until you realize I'm just doing it while repositioning like a bull for the 15th time and wondering if like a certain hem should puddle or just graze the ground, you know.

50:09for me the stillness is like I was so in the production of the work you know that I wanted to start caring more about how the work lives in actual life not just like on the page or the photograph but like in the corners of someone's day like the shelf as they walk past like that quiet part of the room I've always been like a storyteller from my past as a dancer and all the way through working with like the greats, like Robin Sanford from Rowan and Williams, like opening a drawer and being like, why didn't you style the inside of the drawer? Because, you know, bringing her cinematic background into a whole nother layer of storytelling and what I do now, the stillness really resides in the pause.

50:56And really, for me, it was just stop running and see what happens. And I hope that the stillness opens space for things to be revealed. I have found in my life that when I make that space, things are revealed to me. I don't have a plan. I never had a plan. I was actually waiting for someone to give me a blueprint to life. I'm finally accepting that someone might never come. And that, you know, I've learned, I guess, Dennis, that I don't know what I want. You know, I don't know what I need. And much like how I shop for things, like people come, you come into a store and people are like, they're like, are you looking for anything in particular?

51:39And I'm like, um, I'll know it when I see it, you know? And that's kind of, I feel like at least what the stillness has brought me this year is just like, I'm going to know it when I see it. And if I can get still enough to actually look and to actually notice the things that are in front of me, then I'll, I'll know the next right action. But when I breeze by my surroundings because I've got my eye on one thing. I miss so much along the way. And really, it's funny, I do morning pages, like the artist's way. And something that really came up for me today was just like, I was talking about beauty and I feel like I was selling beauty, but I wasn't really enjoying it.

52:19And then can I actually sit with beauty without capturing it? because I feel like so much of my work is photo, photo, photo, whether I'm on set or I'm doing it with my phone. And it's like, can I actually just watch the light come through this room and not pick up a phone? Can I be somewhere and enjoy beauty without having to try to immortalize it with a photo? Well, I wonder too, and I was talking to Emily Henderson just recently, and she had gone through a period not dissimilar to what we've been talking about. And she went through a period of wanting to step back and do less and be less out there.

53:06And one of the things that she found was that Instagram wasn't happy about that decision. And Instagram is a huge part of her business and her revenue and just who she is. And so she had to quickly step back in and correct that. And I'm imagining it must be similar for you. You have a great big following. People have an expectation of you showing up. And it must be a component, a big component of you and what you do. Tell me how you think about that. I'm such an advocate for Instagram as a professional tool. Before I even was labeled a stylist, it was how I communicated with the world and how I saw things and how I saw the world and how I experienced things.

54:02And being self-taught, it was really important that people were not knocking on my door for this type of work six years ago. And so I would share random things like how a stanchion was placed in the middle of the Met and how, you know, leaves had fallen around some tulips that I had bought at the bodega. And I think, you know, I always advocate for people to put out the work that they want to be hired for on Instagram, like use it. It's a, it's a free tool and it can be, you know, whether or not we like it, It is a representation of the work that you produce and how you see. And as artists, what else do we have but how we see the world?

54:47And so thankfully, I don't really monetize Instagram. It's not my source of income, which I'm very grateful for because I don't feel tied and tethered to constantly sharing and all of that stuff. Um, it's definitely how people know my name, how people, uh, find me, how brands find me. Um, but it's almost like a website now. I don't really have a website at the Instagram. I'm like, that kind of gives you what you need. I tell so many people, so many people are like, I need to hire someone to run my social media. And I'm like, I don't know if you do. I actually think you just need to teach yourself to use it because no one's going to be able to tell your story like you can.

55:37And you can't wait for someone else like me, like with the blueprint, like you can't wait for someone else to tell you how to tell your story. So it seems as if this isn't a you stepping away time. This is just a you experimenting and thinking about what's really going to be meaningful for you. And the work continues. Yeah, the work continues. And I mean, ultimately, whether people have felt it or not, I've stepped way back this year. I have been on set a lot less. I used to travel like 181 days a year. And I only know that from like counting with my agent and accountant. But, you know, it's been a year of really stepping back.

56:28The move really changed things for me. I was doing a lot of sprints. I wasn't really considering the marathon of it all. So making these decisions and not really seeing how they would kind of change the course of everything. everything, you know, moving was, was really intense for me. That place I poured my heart and soul into and really, I don't know, defined a moment for me. And, and defined you to so many people. It really did. It did. It defined me. I had no idea that's what I was doing in the moment, but that's, that's what ended up happening. And, um, you know, I think even that apartment was a way for me to still have a wall and be like, look, this is me.

57:16This is what I can do. But it really wasn't, it really wasn't me. It really wasn't. It was, and it was never intended to be representational of me. It was like, it was intended to be my studio in my office that then just, you know, it was like an avalanche of things. And it's funny to look back on that stuff because when you're in it, you don't realize what's happening. It's, you know, that hindsight's 20-20. But I always have a friend that says, like, if you're coasting, you're going downhill. So I think there's, like, a discomfort that I've really been seeking. And I think as a creative, you always want to be a little bit uncomfortable and be pushing your own, I don't know, your own concepts and your own beliefs because ultimately, you know, I don't want to be held back by how other people define me or, you know, my own personal closed-mindedness.

58:18So keeping an open mind and some humility is, I think, the best thing we can do as designers and creatives. All right. Well, I'm feeling a lot of good things are coming your way, Colin. But in the meantime, you can catch up with Colin on the last layer, his sub stack, where he's not only taking on the potted plant, but lots of other big issues as well. And it sounds like he's working through some things. Yeah, thanks so much, Dennis. Yeah, thanks for even being interested in having this conversation, I think, as we all go through these things. So it's fun to be able to articulate and get it out there and hopefully help somebody.

59:04And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? 22 caught my eye, the digital printing company that we've had on this very show. They're sitting in a really sweet spot because digital printing seems to get better every month and more and more designers want to get in on it. I just noticed recently that they added this service, which is the sampling component to their digitally printed fabric lines. Now, that may seem like a relatively small thing, but I do think that is kind of like a model that we're going to see more and more where designers who want to get a fabric line up and running can just reach out to one company, whether it's 22, whether it's one of their competitors.

59:46And, you know, this company will help them come up with the will help them sort of finesse the patterns, produce the actual fabric and do the sampling for them. I think it's a great, you know, one stop shop solution to, you know, launching your own line. And, you know, it's expensive and it's never going to be cheap to run a fabric company. But I do think you're going to see more stuff like that because I know designers want to do it. And, you know, why not? So that kind of caught my eye. Another thing, and I'm not even sure I should be talking about this. I'm just going to, if this ends up in the show, you know, we didn't cut it.

1:00:16But Afternoon Light, the e-commerce company that specializes in kind of the cool kids design retail world, they had a show called Shelter that we talked about, you know, for New York Design Week earlier this year. so they've actually they did it in collaboration with and more they're actually breaking up with and more and doing another version of the show next year just under the name afternoon light so next year they'll be back but under a different name and maybe and more will do their own thing i don't know a little bit of an interesting story hopefully we'll be able to come back and talk about it uh next week on the show but that just caught my eye because a little bit of a little bit of industry gossip why not spill it in the dying embers of this show dennis what caught you right Well, there's a new Barbie in town, and her name is Joanna Gaines.

1:01:02So Joanna Gaines has been immortalized as a Barbie doll, and she's got some roller skates and a t-shirt and a townhouse to go with. There's a hearth in hand with Magnolia townhouse, and this is a pretty big deal to be a Barbie doll, right? This is huge. So does the townhouse have shiplap in it? That's a good question. Well, I can't tell from this image, but I would have to say no. It sounds like this is going to be available at Target. And I think a lot of people are going to want a Joanna Gaines Barbie doll. And I don't blame them. I kind of want one myself, Fred. I'm not going to lie to you.

1:01:45The other thing that caught my eye is you and I are headed to what apparently is a pretty hopping design destination. Sadly, not Paris, Fred, but but Manhasset, where you and I will be going to to the opening of the new RH space there. I'm going to catch an early flight and hook up with you there. And and we'll report back next week on the opening and what we see. but a big, is it 19 ,000 square feet or something in Manhasset? I'm sure it'll be a great party. I look forward to it. Yes? I don't know. That's Gatsby country. This is going to be exciting. And as everyone knows, Manhasset is the Paris of Long Island.

1:02:28That's what people say. That's what people say. I'm excited to go out there and see you there and have a martini and check out what Gary Friedman is up to in Gatsby country. So can't wait. Yeah. No, I will see you there. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke, edited by Michael Castaneda.

1:03:03I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.