The Thursday Show: Designers are grappling with the ethics of AI. Plus: The story of Chasing Paper

23:29and so she didn't want to populate them that way. But I think there have been a lot of different reasons why both brands and publications have shied away from humans. Yeah, and I mean, I think like the other problem with, you know, design magazines is that sometimes the homeowner just doesn't want to be pictured. You know, as a celebrity, it's like, of course, they're going to be in the shot. For individual people, sometimes they're a little, you know, protective of their privacy, understandably. So there's lots of reasons why that's the case. But when it comes to brand photo shoots, you know, as Caroline pointed out in her piece, sometimes it's just the expense.

24:00And I actually hadn't thought about this, but you think about a fashion photo shoot, you just have to send the clothes to somewhere beautiful. You have to hire a beautiful person to wear them. That's expensive, but you don't have to move 50 sofas to a house in the Bahamas. And brands are operating on a relatively thin margin as it is. And so adding in the expense of a model on top of that is sometimes just simply too much. And the other part of it is just like, it's, it's sort of an awkward fit because especially at the high end, you know, what you're selling is, you know, elevated design and a very sophisticated aesthetic.

24:34So what kind of person do you have just like sitting in your love seat? You know, it's like, you know, this, this Caroline quoted this guy who's talking about, well, do you want like a model and a Oscar worthy ball gown? Like just kind of sprawl that on the sofa. Not really, you know, it's a, it's, it's always been kind of an awkward fit. So especially at the high end, And you just haven't seen that many people because of that fundamentally weird little challenge. And I think that it's been surprising to see more and more people popping up among high-end brands. I agree. Well, that's why I was so surprised and in a way delighted to see the campaign that Our House launched.

25:10I want to say in the past month or so, they've been creating all of these very fun images with not just people, but clearly creating characters for them. There's a fun dog who wears a scarf, and there's people who are sort of eccentric and interesting characters, and they're talking about this notion of defying the ordinary. And I think part of what they're suggesting in defying the ordinary is taking that risk of showing people. And I think also, to your point, maybe they're saying, okay, well, one of our big competitors isn't showing people. Maybe we can. Sure. Right? Inside the Our House boardroom.

25:50We're going to beat him with people. Well, I mean, it's interesting. Like, and it's funny because I was delighted by that Our House campaign as well. But, you know, one of the weird things about it, though, is that I think there's another reason why people don't necessarily use people in photos of furniture is that it kind of draws attention. Like you you're looking at the person, you know, a lot of your focus is like, oh, look at that cool dog and that interesting gentleman, you know, and then I think that like I think the average human attention doesn't go to furniture. Sure. My attention usually does, but the average person is like, oh, there's a person.

26:19I'm going to look at them. And it's maybe harder to get them to look at what's around the person. And so I don't know. It's a delicate balance to walk. But as Caroline mentioned in the piece, I think what's changed and why there are more people is just that it's social media, basically, really. It's so much of what we see every day is quote unquote user generated content. It's just people posting images and they're usually posting images of themselves. They're posting images of themselves in their sofas at their dining room tables. And I think that, you know, it just starts to look kind of stale and stiff if you just post, you know, a beautiful photo of a chair and nothing.

26:53And it just starts to feel a little bit weird compared to, you know, the vast majority of the images that people are looking at, which have people in them. And do you think also, I mean, we're, we're joking, but, but really, I mean, do you think that more and more companies are trying to sort of be a cheerleader for humans in a way? I don't, I don't know. I mean, I can't separate all this AI conversation from, hey, but let's remind people, because you talk to so many, and part of the reason that I think this is you talk to so many artisans and you talk to so many designers that say, oh, well, the humans will be so important because X, we can do this and we can do that.

27:31And you almost feel like some people are having to make the case for the future of humans. And so I don't think – I'm not really joking when I say that some marketers, I'm sure, want to make people feel better by, oh, let's remind them people are hanging in there, though. You know, they're facing some challenges. Another conversation from the Our House boardroom is let's remind our audience that people exist. I mean, to take a different version of that, I think that's right. But I think it comes down to more that, you know, because you can generate beautiful imagery with AI and the Internet is flooded with it, you need a way to distinguish your image from all the rest of the AI slop.

28:11And what's a good way to do that? Put a recognizable person in there. Now, of course, AI can generate images of people, too. But I think it's harder. And I think that, like, generally speaking, if you have like a video of someone, you know, jumping onto your sofa or using your table, you know, your brain is like, OK, that's real. That's not random AI slop. So, you know, whether, you know, our house putting a person in its campaign is, you know, a battle against the bots, I don't know. But I do think there's a very tangible, practical thing, which is, you know, a person makes it stand out from AI slop for the most part.

28:41Yes. And listen, the reason that a lot of companies don't put people in is because which people and how do I show it? And what if I choose the wrong people? And everyone's gotten in trouble for, oh, why'd you show this person and not that person? And so there's a lot of risks involved, which is why, in a way, going back to the Our House boardroom, I feel like creating these fictional characters, it sort of diffuses that a little bit. And so they're just telling this fun story and they're introducing these characters. And oh, by the way, most of them, not all, but most of them are humans. And so I just think there's something there.

29:19And I think we are seeing more of it in part because people want to be reminded that people are doing okay. That may just be you, Dennis, but it's a point well taken. Yeah. Moving on, we're going to talk about Instagram. In fact, Fred. Yes. This week, a pair of articles took a hard look at the social platform. In Veranda, Markham Roberts took aim at room scrolling, while in House Beautiful, Catherine O'Shea Evans, friend of the show, asked designers a simple question. Is Instagram ruining interior design? Yes was the answer. No, the answer was not yes. What'd you make of these, Dennis? Well, I mean, I think there are so many nuances here, but to many people, the answer was yes, in that I think it has made many aspects of working with clients, what clients are seeing, how the design industry is being impacted by just all of these images and often the same images.

30:15I think many people do want to say, yes, it's ruining it. Well, you put up a poll on Instagram. Did most people say yes? I mean, what was your feedback? I mean, the people that weighed in with answers either were trying to be – so Emily Sturgis, for example, weighed in and said yes, partially because clients' imagination is so limited to what they see on Instagram. They want that exact room. They want that exact fabric. It stunts our creative ability to sometimes convince clients to go outside the box. And many designers weighed in with a similar notion. Sprague interiors weighed in and said, yes, everyone's looking at the same images and design is losing its uniqueness.

31:02Homogenization is real. And she makes the point, I want people to get inspired by a fabric or a material rather than an entire image and just say, oh, yes, I want that whole room. And I think that is very real. I think that Betsy Moyer wrote to me and said that it's definitely making trends happen faster and sort of burn through perhaps more quickly. but it is definitely making people feel as if there's this limited set of images and the world is just flatter as a result. Yeah. I mean, I think Markham Roberts' piece, interior designer Markham Roberts writes for Veranda sometimes, and his piece was this sort of like fun nostalgia where he was talking about when he worked for Mark Hampton back in the day, he was like forced to organize Mark Hampton's magazine clippings and how that was a really menial task at the time, but it really gave him an appreciation for design.

31:59And I think it's simply when you hold a piece of paper in your hands and you're looking at it, your attention is more focused in a way that it's not when you're frantically thumb scrolling to find, you know, the next thing that's going to give you a dopamine hit. I think that's all very, I think that's all very well taken. You know, it's interesting. Like, I feel like ever since we started doing this show, like there has been a lot of negative sentiment towards Instagram and the design industry. I mean, in, in society at large, I mean, right now there's a huge trial around social media addiction and people are getting phones out of schools.

32:27And I think that this is a much, much bigger thing in our society and the design industry just reflects that. I think the complicated thing, though, is that for as much angst as there is around Instagram, it really did create the modern version of the design industry, right? You think about how many more designers are able to get their work out there, to make their voices be heard, to learn about the industry to connect with? How many jobs have been gotten on Instagram? So I've said this before on the show, but I think it's still true is that Instagram does, it does take it away, you know, we lose something to it, but it's really, it's really given a lot to the industry too.

33:04And I think that right now we're just in a weird middle time where I kind of feel like everyone's looking for the next thing. Is it Substack? Is it YouTube? Is it TikTok? But we're all, we're all still kind Well, I think it's a great point, and I don't disagree. I think it's fascinating to see the impact that Instagram has had. And you're right that so many people have been able to build entire careers and come from nowhere and just become Instagram stars, and suddenly they're part of the top design lists. And five minutes ago, you didn't know who they were. And I think that's all very real. I think your point about the broader culture and how it's being impacted, we know that people consuming all of this short form video, for example, that they're consuming on Instagram is starting to have a very negative effect on people.

34:01People were already attention challenged in our society, and we're finding that they're having even shorter attentions. And P.S., you talk to designers about that, and they say, yeah, I have to be so much quicker now presenting to my clients because they don't have a long attention span. But also, interestingly, in the media world and the magazine publishing world, and Jill Cohen often talks about this too, trying to get designers to hold off on posting something on Instagram so that we can get it in the magazine. And several people shared with me stories recently about I was just about to get this story placed in a magazine, but the designer couldn't wait anymore and thought, oh, I'll get just as much impact by putting it up on my Instagram account.

34:47And so I moved away from that other media. And that's a huge shift as well. Yeah, I mean, to be clear, like I think, you know, Instagram has giveth and taketh away from designers, from the design media. It is just taketh away. There is no giveth. It is very much bad for shelter media, I think, because it's replaced a lot of what it used to provide. I think it's more complicated, I think, for individual designers. But you're absolutely right. I mean, the attention span thing is very real. And it's funny. I was kind of lost in a reverie there of imagining designers having to do TikTok dances to sort of present their – let me present this to you in a medium you understand.

35:24I'll do a dance trend around your fireplace tile choices. I don't know. It's tough. I think you also run the risk when you're talking about this stuff of remember when, you know, kind of overly indulging in nostalgia. And I think I'll end my thoughts on this matter by quoting the great Wendy Goodman, my design guru, even though she doesn't know it. But she said, you just you have to be of your time. You know, I think it's only so good to think about, you know, the way things used to be. And that doesn't necessarily mean that we don't need to change. We don't need to try and wean ourselves off Instagram.

35:54I'm all for that. But I think we just have to accept that this is the reality of the moment and do the best we can within it. All of these conversations around AI and Instagram aren't going away. And it is having a huge impact, but we have to figure out how to deal with it. And so we talk it through on the Thursday show. And hopefully that helps. All right. That's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of the latest industry hires and advice from Sean Lowe on mixing business and politics. But first, a quick break.

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37:39And we're back. I'm joined now by the founder of Chasing Paper, Elizabeth Reese. Elizabeth, so glad to finally have you on the show. Oh my gosh, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. Well, I'm delighted and we have a lot to talk about, including some new things that you're working on that we'll get to, but tell people who might not be familiar the story of Chasing Paper. Absolutely. Chasing Paper is a wall coverings brand that started way back in 2012. Way back? Yes, yes. We're about to turn 13. We've officially launched in 2013, but in 2012, I was just a young girl living in New York City, and it was really an interesting time to sort of come up in New York because at that time, let me take you back to the 2010s, there was a huge democratization, especially in our area in design and also in direct-to-consumer as well.

38:39A lot of people were just taking sort of the ownership into their own hands, which was such an exciting time. We were watching companies on a direct consumer side, you know, like a Harry's or, you know, things like that, where they were saying, we don't need to, you know, go through these other industrial middleman. We were spending that time getting into the middleman. Right. Correct. Yes. Yes. And really just taking a lot of excitement and same in the design world. It was the time of e-design was really starting to take off. A lot of junior designers were saying, hey, with the onslaught of social media and being able to talk to people a little bit more directly, it was just a very exciting time.

39:18And wallpaper, to me, having grown up in the Midwest, was always something that was like in fancy people's homes. You know, it was not something that felt like it could be for everyone. But as a renter, like me and all of my friends, I was a 20-something-year-old living in a, you know, West Village apartment, a pre-war that I could not even paint. I wanted to personalize. I wanted it to look and feel like these cool restaurants and bars and things that my friends and I frequented. And peel-and-stick wallpaper was certainly in the market, but it was not done in a way that I thought my friends and I would buy it.

39:52And removable wallpaper had such a bad rap. People were like, oh, it's like contact paper. The design is really not great. And I thought there is an idea here. And we launched in 2013. And really since then, it has been such an organic growth. First of all, we started with renters and just women like me, women who were living in cities. So what were you doing at the time when you were living in New York? What was your profession before you got into Walmart? Yes, I had always been in marketing and in communication. So by trade, I feel like I've always been sort of a storyteller. And I got my degree in journalism, which everyone was like, you'll never use that.

40:31You know, I totally I know. Everyone gave me so much grief about the best foundations you can have. I mean, all jokes aside, I genuinely believe that. I think especially in today's day and age. I know, like, I truly think that it helped me understand sort of how do you hook people? How do you gather a story in one headline? How do you capture people's attention quickly, which is such a huge part of building a brand and a business nowadays. So it was actually a really nice just kind of like foray into the wallpaper world crazily enough, especially because we have always been a direct to consumer channel.

41:12And at the time, and obviously this is changing now, but so much of not just in wallpaper, in textiles, in design overall was trade only. And I thought, you know, design should be for everyone. And that is a core of chasing paper that we still really believe. And the first couple of years, we were only a removable wallpaper company and just growing, you know, doubling revenue each year, just zero budget, nothing. I mean, it was just me for many years, but it was growing. So I knew that people were excited about this and that there was an idea. And then we just continued to listen to our customers.

41:48After a couple years, designers and other people would say, I love this design, but removable wallpaper is just not for me. I need something that can last longer and have more longevity. And so in 2019, we launched traditional non-woven, which is obviously a paste material. And then we continued to listen. And our customer was then saying, well, especially coming out of the pandemic, well, now my nine design firm, we used to just be residential, but now we're helping, we're doing restaurants and we're doing offices and people are coming back to the office and we want to use your stuff. So then we introduced two type two vinyl options for our consumer as well.

42:29So now we have four materials. Every single pattern comes in all four materials. So we really like to think of it as that, you know, it's for the girl who's in her first apartment in New York, it's into your forever home. It's your office. It's your small business dream of your restaurant. We can meet you sort of at any moment along the way. So the interesting, and as you say, people seem to have a notion of removable wallpaper, right, or peel and stick just seem to represent something negative in their mind. And was part of that because they thought, oh, well, if it's removable, then it must not stay on very long.

43:08It doesn't have great durability. Was that part of the challenge? And what is the truth around that? And how does it turn out to perform? Absolutely. I think especially at the time, it was very similar to contact paper. But ours is actually a peel and stick fabric. So it actually has like a texture and a grain to it that makes it, when it's installed, you wouldn't know if it's removable or not. I mean, it's really matte, which was something that was very, very important to me. Not shiny, you know, but it was interesting, I think, because I didn't know any better. I called every single showroom, I think, in North America when I was starting out.

43:44And I got a no from 100 % of showrooms. So that's so interesting. So you called all these showrooms in design centers and around the country and said, hi, I've got this new line. The naivety, yeah. No, but I love that. And how would you explain it? And what would they say? I would just say, yeah, I started this business. I always would say we're a removable wallpaper company that helped to maybe take the sting of peel and stick away a little bit. And people were really gracious and really like, the designs are really cool or good for you. People were really kind, but they were like, absolutely not.

44:20Good for you. And thanks for calling, but no, thank you. We won't be seeing you anytime soon. Yes, 100%. But also, you know, it was great because I think hearing no also made me realize that like direct to consumer really was the avenue for me and that I was going to make it work. I'm a very determined Midwestern gal. So, you know, it didn't actually really deter me. I think it actually made me at the time, I think it helped me decide who our customer was a little bit more fervently. You know, it made me realize that, you know, the person who was buying our wallpaper was probably hanging it herself.

44:56You know, she wasn't having an installer. And that was great because the secret to that was, you know, she was 27 when I started. She was my age or 25 or 28 around my age. But then she gets older. And we have really grown with our customer, you know. So maybe she was in her 20s in the city and now she has her first home in Connecticut or Milwaukee or, you know, wherever, Denver. And we've really been able to sort of seamlessly continue on with our customer through all of these different life milestones and moments. Let's talk a little bit about your family business, which I assume was helping to give you some understanding of just even how to do this and how to make this happen.

45:39Sure. Yes. I am third generation in a commercial printing business. So when we got started, we were using equipment at our family business. Chasing Paper has always been run as a totally separate company. It always stood alone. We've always had our own P &L, which I think sometimes, you know, I think people make inferences that like, oh, there must have been this big cash infusion. I mean, I wish. I wish. I was babysitting at night in New York City to make my rent. No two ways about that. But, you know, the printing technology and especially coming about, we've always printed digitally, which is also something at the time, again, back in 2012, was not super, you know, it wasn't like the way that a lot of people were creating wallpaper.

46:24It was still a lot of silk screening. And obviously, digital printing has come so far, even in the last decade, and is now part of most wall covering companies mix now, whether it's all or part. Just I think also, too, as the technology has gotten a lot better. And also we know there's just so many other influences in terms of like pricing and lots of different things that companies are now under the pressure of. But yeah, so we printed and produced under my family business. And it was funny because located here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and they all thought it was the funniest thing that I was going to try to sell wallpaper on the internet.

47:06They were like, girl, and you want to sell it for how much? I mean, it was so foreign. But again, I was obviously living in New York, and I think Chasing Paper was about five years old, six years old. We sort of hit an inflection point just in revenue where I was either going to have to really make some big investments in New York, bigger office space, more people. And New York is expensive. I don't know if you know that. I grew up there. I'm well aware of how expensive a town it is. That's right. So, and, you know, being obviously a Midwesterner and at the time my younger brother, Mike, was living out in Colorado and he always had an interest in the business.

47:48I would actually fly him out for New York now to help me run my little booth when we were part of that so that it wasn't just me. So he was super familiar with the business and really had been like my sounding board and just always kind of a help, you know, with me as I was growing and building. And we both decided to make the move back to Milwaukee. And he came on as kind of our production head and operations head. And I do much more of like the sales and marketing and creative direction. And we plan on carrying on our family legacy, obviously, in a different way. You know, we've since bought our business out in 2021 from our family business so that we would just have more autonomy and we were able to run it on our own.

48:32But, you know, we really take taking our family legacy very seriously. And it's genuinely the greatest gift to be able to work with him. So you mentioned New York Now, which is it which is a trade show at the Javits Center. And I was wondering where you were showing up in the early days where people were discovering you. So was that one of the ways that you were putting yourself out there in the early days? Yes, we got there was a juried section and I haven't been to New York now. So you might have to correct me if I'm wrong here. There used to be a juried section called Accent by Design. Yeah.

49:04So you had to apply to be part of this group. And we were in such good company, you know, and we made it in, you know, so we got this little booth. And I mean, it was just fantastic. I mean, getting to tell your story and also to this in the early days, you're still kind of like getting your elevator pitch down. Like, what is my company in two minutes? Like, again, kind of how do you hook people in? How do you get people excited? Watching what people gravitate towards in your booth. What questions do they ask? And New York Now is a long show. It's like four days. And it was like me and my brother for like nine hours a day for four days.

49:39I mean, you're so tired after. But it was like the fastest way to learn and get questions. And we also realized that wallpaper is not like a wholesale. People would be like, can I carry this in my store? And we tried it, but it just doesn't really work in the same way. Again, with knowing that direct consumer was really our focus. We didn't have much of a budget. We didn't have much of a, you know, we didn't have really resources behind it at the start. So we had to be really careful in the things that we went after. So we were really laser focused on the direct consumer. Okay. So that's interesting.

50:10And that's what I wanted to better understand as well. So I'm sure you had a lot of people stopping by the booth saying, oh, I love this. I've got the cutest little shop down in Florida. Can I carry X number of roles? But you weren't set up for that margin wise, I'm assuming. We tried because I was just trying. Okay. Okay. Because I mean, you have had some partnerships with some big box retailers, right? Yes. And that is all on a drop ship basis. My entire business is set up. I print everything on demand and I have it since day one. Companies that carry inventory, I want to live inside their brain to understand.

50:43I am far too nervous. How do they do that? How? I mean, I am far too nervous a person to ever have to carry inventory like that. So now we have great relationships with West Elm and Creighton kids. And we've had those relationships for so many years. And it's great because it's like, there's no pressure on either side. We can just like sell wallpaper. And, um, but yes, people would stop by and I would say, okay, I'll sell it to your small town. We're in Florida. And then it just really, what was hard is that merchandising wallpaper in a store is really hard unless it's, you know, installed and it's hard to tell from a small swatch or different things.

51:19And again, the margin was so challenging and we just felt like we were better suited to, but New York now is a great way to get in front of editors and also just to hear the real time, you know, Oh, I love this print. Oh, I wish this print was in another color. Oh, Oh, I I've seen something like this, or I wish, you know, people tell you everything. Yeah. They're very forthcoming. People don't hold back. I mean, for better, for worse. Absolutely. Right. And you have to check your ego at the door because they're going to tell you what they think. Yes, yes, a thousand percent. But yeah, it helped me make my skin a little thicker because I'm a Midwestern gal at heart.

51:56So that Midwestern nice, you know, sometimes just does not exist. But it was a great learning experience. And we did it for a couple years, really, again, just to get our name out there. And how better are you getting your name out in front of thousands of people that are interested in design? So it was a really wonderful experience at the start. But, you know, we really, you know, I was young. I was footloose and fancy free, you know, I, so I said yes to everything. You want me to come hang wallpaper at a photo shoot? I'm there. You want me to come in, hang wallpaper? I mean, I did everything.

52:30I would carry a roll of wallpaper in my bag and I took the subway everywhere, like everyone in New York. And people would ask me about it. They'd be like, what's in your bag? And I would like take it out. I'd be like doing a presentation on the subway. Like I was so embarrassing, but like scrappy. But how fantastic. I mean, and isn't that how you have to be in the beginning when you're getting your business off the ground? I think so. I think so. You have to be that committed. Yes. So it was a great time. And again, I think growing in a city like New York where people are so open to new ideas and to learning.

53:05And, you know, I think there was just a lot of excitement around that. And in turn, that made me more excited and it keeps you fueled through all the days where it's really hard and, you know, you're not seeing things grow as quickly as you'd like. Or, you know, when you're met with the nose, all the nose of the show, you know, that buoyed me. It's just people's enthusiasm. And, you know, trade has always been a part of the business, but it was one that I would say maybe four years ago, we really started to dig in on the numbers a little bit. and as acquisition costs on the retail side, which is probably why all the people that you're talking to are like, because it has, it's the acquisition cost and how you're able to retain and get the customers has just become more and more and more expensive, right?

53:49And so it has to make sense. You can't get a customer for$120 when your AOV is$80. That doesn't make financial sense, right? You can't grow profitably, I guess I should say. You can grow in that way, but - Right, if growth is all you're interested in, And you can do that all day long, right? If someone's funding that for you. And that was what we discovered, right? In so many of these D2C companies. And why so many of them aren't here today? That's it. So, you know, we've always kept, again, being very Midwestern, my brother and I, and I'm grateful that he shares the same value is that we've always put profitability at like, that's our North Star.

54:24We've got to be profitable. And again, it was very, very unsexy for many, many years. But now, I mean, that's the only thing that matters. when people are looking at the value of a company. So I think it was the right thing to bet on. But as acquisition costs have continued to creep up, trade was a segment where we were like, okay, they are repeat customers. The average order value is much higher than our consumer product. And they're using our wallpaper in a different way, which is very aspirational. It's very exciting. It's very inspirational to people. And also too now with social media, you know, interior designers are showing all of these projects, you know, they're creating beautiful photography and video and all of the things.

55:08And so we really saw just kind of the numbers of that. And we have made a lot of investments. You know, we brought on a full time person that just handles our trade segment. We have been doing design social pop-ups, you know, with Brooks that we truly have benefited. But what we've really seen from 24 to 25, you know, we saw 39 % growth in our trade program, which to us is huge. I mean, it's so exciting to see that kind of growth and showing that what we're doing and the investments that we're making into this segment are paying off. And we just want to continue to, you know, build and grow with that customer as well.

55:50So now we sort of have two customer profiles. We look at our trade customer and we look at our consumer customer because they're very different. You know, a trade is sending us elevations and we're helping them, you know, work through what do they need and how much and a consumer, you know, wants to be able to chat and get our input on what pattern they should use and different things. So it's a really different user experience. And we've just really tried to focus in on what is going to make that consumer or trade member experience the best in class. Come back to let's talk about design social for a moment and friend of the show, Brooks Morrison, And you've been doing that for how many years have you been going to design social now?

56:32About two years. Okay. So you, you got in there and the hope was it, I mean, it sounds like you've gotten as much out of just being part of the community of people showing there as the actual customer base that you've grown from that. Absolutely. I mean, I think coming out of COVID, everyone was just so hungry for like in person, you know, and that's why she has just, what she has done has been in my mind. mind, just really like revolutionary how she does it because trade shows are so hard. They're very, very expensive. They're long. You have to be shift, especially for a small business. If you have a booth for four days, that's a lot of resources that you're pooling to make sure that it works.

57:13Plus they're extremely, extremely expensive and the build out and all the other things. Brooks has done it in a way that feels like it's a day, sometimes two days. Again, And she very much democratized it. It doesn't matter if you are the biggest wallpaper company in the world or the smallest. Everyone gets the same amount of space. It allows everyone to sort of show up in the same way and be on equal footing. And you get to talk to your customers in real life, off the screen, off social media, off email. Connect with them. Hear about their projects. What are they working on? What do they need more of?

57:49You know, like we've been hearing, you know, that they need more small scale prints, you know, so then that's great for us. I mean, what better information and you can see what what samples do they gravitate towards? You know, so it's just been wonderful. And then I think on the other side of it that Brooks has done, maybe this isn't the most impactful thing for our business is create a community of all the vendors. You know, from the outset, you think, oh, we're all competitors, but it does not feel like that in the slightest. and I don't know what magic she has sprinkled or I don't know exactly what it is, but you all eat dinner together the night before, which is so wonderful.

58:26And everyone truly shares. People are vulnerable. People say, this was a great year in business. This was a tough year in business. Here's how the tariffs are affecting me. Here's how I'm shifting showrooms. Have you ever worked with all of these different things? And everyone really shows up in a way that is transparent, and vulnerable and happy to help. You know, it's incredible. It's truly, truly incredible. I'm so glad to hear you say that. And I think that's such an important part. And one of the things that I love so much about the design social is that community and how helpful everybody is.

59:03And is that part of what led to your decision to come out with fabric? Were you hanging around with the fabric people and you're thinking, oh, we just got to expand this product offering? I mean, tell me. Well, you know, it's funny. I don't like to think that I'm a person who, you know, goes to peer pressure, but everyone there is a text hat. You know, they have wallpaper, they have textiles, they have beautiful fabrics. And, you know, for a long time, I just wasn't sure that it was the right time for us for fabric, mostly because I know that it's going to be a trade forward offering. Every launch that we have done mostly in the past has been more consumer facing.

59:45And again, when you look at those two sort of like archetypes and customer profiles, you want it to be done in a way that really resonates with a trade customer. And I think it's just taken us time. I wanted to one, I wanted to really learn that customer. I didn't think I wanted to come out of the gate like, oh, we're new here. Let's go all in. we have much more of a crawl, walk, run approach to chasing paper. And that goes with everything. And I think that being able to test and try and talk with the other vendors, you know, what have you seen? What do you like? Where's your sweet spot? What do you pay for, you know, what do you like to pay?

1:00:25What do you feel is equitable? What do you buy a pillow for? How often do you do a custom pillow versus a retail pillow? You know, I was asking all the questions. I don't hold back. So it was just wonderful to get just insights and advice. And again, also just what are people gravitating towards? What do they love? What do they want a sample of? So it was a great first sort of sneak peek to get people excited. Interesting. And the designer collaborations that you do, I know you've worked with Max Humphrey, for example, love his wallpapers and fabrics. Tell me how you work those and how you think about those and what they do for you.

1:01:07Yes, that has been such an incredible part of our sort of trajectory. Back in 2019, I was introduced to Arielle Oken, who has become a longtime friend and collaborator of the brand. And soon after it was Max. And, you know, we've worked with Chango & Co. and lots of different amazing interior designers. And I think what we really saw there was that, again, they're sourcing, they're looking, they know what's not out there. And so they're able to really create a collection that feels very usable for people who want the look and the feel of a Max Humphrey. You know, they want that camp vibe or that Americana or with Ariel that, you know, traditional with a twist.

1:01:49So how can we create a product that allows people to sort of buy in to that aesthetic and that that taste level and that excitement around someone's design, but without obviously having direct access to them? Now, Elizabeth, you've listened to the show, and so you know how I feel about new fabrics being introduced into the world. Is there white space? Is there room? You tell me. Well, I mean, I do think right now we are seeing a big trend in having matching textiles to the wallpaper. So people have been asking, they're like, we love the wallpaper. If only you had fabric of that wallpaper. If only you had fabric.

1:02:28Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, that was kind of like an impetus to start it. And then it's also to, you know, as we kind of, we celebrated 10 years of chasing paper. And then as I really thought about what is the next 10 years look like, and what do I, what am I dreaming? It's really to create more of like a layered home. You know, how can we find more places to show up in a way that's quality and then that, and that's beautiful. I don't have any expectations that it's going to be an overnight success. You know, nothing good in life or in business is that way. It's certainly something, but that's really where I see.

1:03:01And I look at a company like a Serena and Lily, you know, they started as like a single product company and now we know them as this huge lifestyle brand. Not that that's the trajectory that I feel Chasing Paper is on, but I know that if you start with one thing and you do it really well and you can gain the customer's trust and, you know, you understand who they are and what they're looking for, I think building upon that feels natural. So to the point about Serena and Lily, could you imagine some chasing paper retail shops popping up around the country? I mean, I do not think so. Retail is so hard right now.

1:03:39Retail is so hard right now. And I, at the heart of what we do, we are a digitally native company. You know, people always say, they're like, do you have those big wallpaper books? And I'm like, no, like we were always changing things online. You know, we're always changing things. We want to be nimble. We want to feel like they were always putting new things out and taking things away and having it look fresh. You know, we're definitely like a new kind of wallpaper brand in the sense that there are so many, you know, storied, incredible heritage brands. So we needed to do it in a new way that felt a little bit different.

1:04:13Can you imagine going back to some of the showrooms that said no in the past and letting them know, hey, guess what? I've got fabric now and you're going to love it. Of course. Of course, I think that. I am very much a person who likes to validate an idea first. I would love to be able to go to a showroom and say, we've sold X amount of yards of this in this amount of time. I like to be able to show that. But I also know that showrooms too, the margin has to work. A lot of things have to work in order for it to be like a non-strained relationship, right? So I also think direct-to-consumer is where we live and it's what we know.

1:04:55So it feels like a very natural place to start. So many people say to me that somewhere along the way, the physical presence has to happen, that the online and the DTC can only take you so far. Warby Parker's opening stores everywhere you look. Bonobos back in the day, like you finally were like, yes, of course, we need to show up physically. So, I mean, brace yourself, Elizabeth, because it seems like it will have to happen in some form. And maybe you find some great partner where it makes sense for you to be together. But I can't imagine that in the next few years, you're not going to have to succumb to some kind of, right?

1:05:39I mean, I don't. I never say never to anything, you know what I mean? No, no, no. You seem like a say yes kind of person. So I feel like when the opportunity shows up, exactly. So tell me about the book. It sounds like it's coming out any minute. Yes, it comes out later this month. And we are so excited. I mean, it's really just a love letter to wallpaper. I mean, it's called Wallflowers, A Love Letter to Wallpaper. And that's really what it is. You know, the part one is just a little bit, hopefully not so boring history of wallpaper and just sort of like how it's sort of played a role in like modern day and how it's come about.

1:06:17a little bit about chasing paper and my story and what wallpaper means to me. And then the second part of the book is just being in conversation with different interior designers and really just showing, you know, how wallpaper has shown up sort of in the course of their life and how it shows up in design. And, you know, I think looking at all of the giants in the industry, you know, the people who have been around for centuries and who really the ones that I look to so often, you know, a Schumacher, a Gracie, you know, all the big, a Tebow, um, you know, they all do books. So I said yes to this opportunity to start my own little, you know, the first of the legacy of, of chasing paper.

1:07:00And, um, I'm so excited to be traveling this year to talk about it. And, um, you know, just, is that what you'll be doing? You'll be doing the tour and going around and yeah, a little bit, you know, like where I'm going to try to kind of actually design social has been such a great thing because I'm going to be traveling to a lot of cities this year. anyway for design social. So we're trying to kind of like add book stuff in there, which is great. But, you know, I also have two young, young girls. So I can't like, just like we were saying before, you can't be everywhere to everyone all the time, but I'm going to do my very best to promote this book in the best way I can, which is really to open it up and just to say like, everyone has these wallpaper stories, like what are yours and to be in conversation with people and customers.

1:07:43And, you know, I'm just, I'm very, very grateful for the opportunity. Well, so you've got a lot going on. All right. I'm eager to see the book. I'm especially eager to see the fabric and can't wait to see where that is going to show up. I can't imagine that some showroom's not going to want to have you. Apologies. They'll rebuild the bridge and have you in. So you'll have to let me know what happens there. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me about it all. I'm delighted to get to speak with you. Thank you. This has been such a great honor. So I'm very grateful.

1:08:22And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Get ready. Three things caught my eye this week, Dennis. I'll try and be quick. One was Kelly Wurstler's piano. We've got to start there. So Kelly Wurstler designed this sort of art piano with his company Edelweiss. And sort of as a former musician when I was young and cool, I really am dying to play the Kelly Wurstler piano. So hopefully that's in my future, but I just thought that was fun.

1:08:51another thing is I saw a former podcast guest John Pomp an amazing glassblower and designer furniture designer he's in the new RH catalog I don't know if he'd done a lot of work with the company before but he is very big in in the newest RH catalog that just dropped on my doorstep so I thought that was kind of interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing you know what what that does for him and what that does for them finally we've talked a little bit about a deco off I think you and Caitlin mentioned how there might be some kind of shake up there and there's a lot going on with that changes it changes yes and I just saw an email that they hired a new PR agency to represent them I believe it was that seemed to me to indicate like they're definitely they're up to something they're going to make some changes they're going to publicize them so I think Deco Off is definitely a watch this space situation for next year and I'm sure we'll be talking about in between now and then.

1:09:42See, three things, very fast. Very, very speedy. Can you be as quick as two things that caught your eye? Let me see if I can be as speedy. First of all, the D &D building is going to have a new restaurant? What? I mean, how is this not the lead story on the Thursday show? I don't know, but it is big news. Apparently sometime late spring of this year, another story is what it will be called, And it'll be some new dining experience and you can take out and eat in and we'll see. I'm looking forward to exploring that and maybe it tells us things. Live podcasts, live from the D &D restaurant. Why not?

1:10:25Why not? We'll see. We'll see if it says anything about what else is going on at the D &D building. But interesting to get that announcement and we will definitely be there when all of that happens. Speaking of being there, one of the things that I went to over the weekend was the grand opening of Williams-Sonoma's newest brand, Green Row, which we've talked about in the past and we wrote about when it was first launched. It's the sustainability-focused brand. And I'm really eager for people to get down to Howard Street and check it out. I have to say I was a little bit skeptical about what it was going to look like, and it was really fun.

1:11:06And there were some really interesting products and a fun fabric collection and some wallpaper. And there's some interesting furniture. And it had sort of a vintage vibe to it. But also it definitely felt a little bit sort of Laura Ashley 2.0, as somebody shared with me. It was interesting and impressive. I'm hoping to speak to the person behind building all of that in the coming weeks. I spent some time with her. and I'm eager to hear what people think of it. Yeah, it's a good look. It's a good look. To be sure. Finally, I've got two heavy hitters coming to the New York School of Interior Design that I wanted to mention so that listeners will have a chance to get tickets.

1:11:51March 26th, Ken Falk is joining me for a Dialogues on Design at the New York School of Interior Design. And the very next week, Thursday the 2nd, none other than Amber Lewis is coming to town to sit down with me at the New York School of Interior Design. So I'm looking forward to both of those conversations. And I hope some of our listeners will be able to join us at the school as well. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

1:12:31This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castagneda I'm Dennis Scully Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday