The Thursday Show: Designers join the wellness revolution. Plus: Artemest preps for a big Milan Design Week

24:00And so this is a really consistent pain point for a lot of these companies. And it's really dangerous because you're basically giving, you know, you're giving a bunch of guys in a warehouse you don't know that well your entire life savings worth of product and hoping it makes it to the designer on time. So it's a very, it's boring or kind of unsexy, but it's very important and it's very fraught for these companies. Exactly. It's such a crucial component. And the more complex your product is, the more items that need to be picked off of a rack system or whatever the infrastructure is within the warehouse, the more picks and the more components and things that have to be placed together, the more opportunity there is for things to go wrong and for these businesses to not be able to control what actually goes out to a client or customer.

24:47or customer. So businesses rely on these operations a great deal. They really do. And it's such a good point about the individual items. There's this guy, Robert Shukra-chand, who has a company called Pernbon that's based in Thailand. His most popular product is a light fixture where you can actually choose the individual slab of marble that backs the light, which is such a cool thing that you can do. But then that actually requires a guy in a warehouse to get that slab of marble out. And this is a guy who's probably used to sending out, I don't know, DVDs or whatever it is. So it's very difficult.

25:18And this story is about this one particular company. It used to be called Manifest. And it was actually started by some people who were roughly in the design industry before. But they sold the company last year. Everything got transferred to Las Vegas. There was this entrepreneur who took over the company and renamed it to Haven. And to be honest, I never really found out exactly through my reporting what happened behind the scenes. But he clearly hit some hard times. And at the the beginning of this year in march of this year he basically told several of his clients you know we're just we can't service you as a customer anymore and so you know for this guy robert who's based in thailand he had to fly from thailand to las vegas a 35-hour flight not really knowing was on the other side of it and got there and like open up the warehouse and physically got the stuff himself so it became a real you know it seems like sort of oh well you know my shipping company is going out of business what what can you do but it's a really it's a very dicey situation And, you know, a lot of these brands kind of got out by the skin of their teeth.

26:12Have you ever dealt with this before, Dennis? I know you have a long, sordid past as the operator of a Scandinavian furniture store. Did you ever have any drama like this in your own 3PL dealings? A lot of drama. And it's so hard, again, when you are turning over. And in your story, I so related because there was a fellow that talked about his life savings basically being tied up in these cardboard boxes that represented this inventory in his business. And I, too, once had all of my life savings, that sadly is gone today, wrapped up in the inventory of my Scandinavian furniture company. And when you would visit another warehouse that was storing some of your product and see the level of disarray that other people manage their warehouse facilities in and the lack of care that people were taking and the damages that can so easily occur with rosewood or teak and any number of things.

27:11So yeah, it was a story that brought back a lot of sort of post-traumatic stress for me and a reminder that particularly, as you said earlier, in the early days when you can't afford to control all of that yourself, you don't have your own drivers, you don't have that for you, you have to turn over your trust and your faith and your fortune to these people. And so when they start to have shipping problems, you wonder, are they about to go out of business? What's happening? And you also lose control over that last step of being in front of the client. That experience of the final delivery is your biggest and best chance to make a great impression, and often it's out of your hands.

27:58And I think it speaks to sort of the Amazonification of commerce. Everyone thinks it's so simple and someone just shows up at your door and hands you something. Why can't it be that way for this super cool light? But I think when you see the guts of how the system works, you realize how complicated it is. And if you want these small, cool, creative brands to thrive, I think we all have to have a sense of grace about the vulnerability that they have when they're working with the 3PL. And I don't think it's an opportunity. There's anyone listening to this who wants to get into the exciting world of third-party logistics.

28:28I feel like if you can set your business up working with brands that have these specific needs, you know, so many of the people told me, like, I would pay much, much more if you just are careful with my stuff and you find that one slab of marble. So, you know, I know that's going to be not the coolest opportunity out there in the world, but I think there is a need for it. So maybe somebody will come along and solve that problem. So there is an opportunity, not for me, but for someone who wants to take this on. Maybe Claude can do it. Exactly. Hopefully, Claude will be making all that easier soon.

28:58Next up, we're going to talk about wellness. So last week, our producer, Caroline Burke, wrote about how designers are responding to a spike in demand for health-conscious homes. They don't want smart homes, Fred, but they do want health-conscious homes. Exactly. Get that screen out of here and get that red light projector. Get that meditation pod in here. I mean, this is a really big business. I mean, Caroline shared some stats in the article and it was a 6.8 trillion, that's globally, but$6.8 trillion business in 2024 projected to reach 9.8 trillion by 2029, which is just crazy growth for any sector of the economy.

29:37And, you know, I think we, you know, we were talking a few weeks ago about how there was a study showing that, you know, in the American retail world, more people are opening up spas and salons and fitness studios than they are like retail storefronts, like stores that sell stuff, you know, for the first time ever. And so this is clearly a huge, huge movement. I think everybody knows that it's maybe not crazy news to say that wellness is hot, but it's really showing up for designers. And Caroline's story was, you know, a good survey of the landscape. I'm curious, like, why do you think this has happened?

30:06Like, well, you know, we've always cared about surviving and thriving. Like, why is this so hot right now? I'm just curious what your take on that is. Well, I think there's a whole range of issues. So I remember when the cosmetics industry started to have this boom when everyone suddenly had to be on Zoom during COVID. And then everybody started to want to alter how their face or perhaps other parts of their body started to look. And then the GLP-1 Nozempic craze started to take hold. And then this aging of the baby boomer generation and people facing their own mortality, they have the vast resources to perhaps slow their aging process down.

30:48And they're wearing an aura ring that tells them how well they slept last night or didn't sleep last night. And so there's just a whole host of issues, not the least of which is podcasts, Fred. That's the main driver. That are, exactly. Wellness podcasts and the power of the Dr. Ubermans and the others that have just told people there's all sorts of things that they should be doing and investing in that they aren't. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's podcasters. I think you hit the answer there. I'm the nail on the head. I think it's interesting. Caroline's story pointed out this sort of dynamic, which is that there's obviously stuff that people can do at home, like having a sauna or having whatever a meditation pod is, having all kinds of medical and wellness.

31:37And really, it can be almost anything. It could be a home gym. It could be a cold plunge pool. There's so many different things that you can give a client who wants to invest in this kind of thing. But the other side of it is that because there's so much development in the retail world around all different kinds of new wellness retail concepts that are opening up, and most of them don't have a built-in design aesthetic, right? Like if you're building an office building, you're like, okay, I'm going to go to Gensler. I'm going to get this and that, and that's pretty much the template. But because this is sort of like a new category, like what does an infrared light treatment studio look like?

32:11You know, there's no clear answer for it yet. And so I think designers really should be the ones determining that. And I think that residential designers, I think, are uniquely equipped to make people feel comfortable in these environments. And so I think it's an opportunity, first of all, to give your clients what they want in their own homes, but it's also a commercial opportunity too. I agree. And to me, this is very similar to the conversation we were just having about the AI coaches. This is an opportunity, I think, for designers to immerse themselves in their understanding of what are the technologies, what are the benefits, what can they inform their clients about?

32:48And then to your point, how can they beautifully and peacefully incorporate it into clients' homes and therefore into their lives? And I think this all plays into the ability that designers have to impact their clients' health and well-being through design. And I think that's a huge part of this. And I think often isn't talked about enough in terms of what designers can and should be doing for their clients. No, I completely agree. And it's also wellness is such a broad category. Like it could mean these very complicated technological things. It could also mean simply creating environment where your clients feel calm and, you know, mentally at ease.

33:30There's a million different ways to interpret it. I mean, I think, you know, just in the broadest sense, people want to spend money on this and people think this is valuable. Designers should figure out how to deliver on that. And there's a million different ways to do it. It really isn't. I'm kind of being a little facetious when I say meditation pods and red light treatments. And that's part of it. But a lot of it is just simply, you know, low VOC paints. There's a million different ways to incorporate sort of a wellness mindset into your business. And I think that people would be, as you said, well-suited to sort of immerse themselves in it.

34:01You know, I don't want to be too skeptical. I think this stuff is really valuable and meaningful and important. And, you know, what better to spend money on than your own health? But part of me does, I always get a little nervous because some of this stuff is clearly kind of pseudo-scientific. I'm always a little bit worried when I see something, you know, when people are like, I'm going to live forever by shining a red light in my ear or whatever it is. And I worry that designers maybe put themselves in a position of embracing something that's like a little bit kind of on the edges of snake oil.

34:31I'm a little bit concerned about that. I also worry a little bit about that we're turning everyone into hypochondriacs with the aura rings and, you know, the panels that scan you as you walk into them. I don't know. Is that too cynical? Is all this stuff good and I'm just being a crank? What do you think about that? I think it's fascinating that we're living in a time where we have the ability to even know all of these things about ourselves that we never did before. And I agree. Is this helping us to know how many hours of deep sleep we got last night? By the way, I only got 34 minutes of deep sleep last night, so it's quite concerning.

35:06but but i i do think that a lot of this goes back to the to the basics and i think to your point creating spaces within homes perhaps where people don't use their phone perhaps where they don't have screens perhaps where they light a candle and read a book and just get away from some of the stresses and strains of everyday life and perhaps it doesn't need to be anything more elaborate than that uh have we have we learned that a that a cold plunge might be helpful to certain people in recovery, sure. Are you a professional tennis player? Maybe you need that. I don't know. And we have learned that sauna, heat, right?

35:43There are some positive benefits to that too, sure. But again, I think a lot of the pseudoscience as you refer to it and just a lot of the merchandise that seems to be coming out today, I hope that this doesn't just sort of take advantage of people in this moment where we're all focusing on it. But instead, I think if designers can just help clients to find peace in their home, they will be rewarded for that. Yeah. And I mean, to be clear, if it's pseudoscience and designers can make money, then I'm up for it. But I don't know. I think your point is very well taken. Most people's homes, I think, are just simply not set up for wellness in any way, shape, or form.

36:25There's a lot of distance to travel there before we go too far. It's just sometimes I get press releases about this stuff and I'm just like, I don't know how real that is. And I'm always a little bit wary, but I think, I think as you said, the candle, the book, the screen-free room, I'm on board with that. Cosign. Yeah. So many, so many simple things we can do before we have to, to get the ultraviolet light and, and everything else that seems popular at the moment. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a guide to Milan Design Week and business coach Gail Doby's advice on finding your next client.

37:01But first, a quick break.

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37:52There'll also be live entertainment throughout the week. And if you can't make it to market, all of the new collections will be available online at laloyrugs.com, where you can also connect with a sales rep or find the showroom nearest you.

38:11And we're back. I'm joined now by the CEO of Artemis, Marco Crendendino. Marco, pleasure to have you. Hello, thank you so much. Thank you, Denis, for having me today. I'm delighted to have you on. Years ago, we had your co-founder, Ippolita, on the show, and she told us a story of some of the early days of discovering Italian artisans and craftspeople and then ultimately bringing their talents online. Is that the story you tell, Marco? Tell me the story of Artemis from your perspective. I think we have a very interesting story, but also a couple of different perspectives. The idea was basically to try to find a way to support Italian craftsmen.

38:59And Italy, as everybody knows, has thousands of masters, craftsmen and amazing artists that are very, very good in what they do in terms of production and capabilities. And they really represent the heritage of our country. but at the same time they're not like the the most efficient let's say in terms of operation they don't know how to manage logistics so the question was how do we support them you know getting in front of the right people and the real way we wanted to do it was uh through e-commerce and through a digital platform i was also very aware of the fact that uh our target clients at the very beginning were consumer, but also that the majority of consumer clients, when it comes to refurnishing an apartment or working on a project, they always do it with an interior designer.

39:54And that's basically, you know, the first Artemis, a digital platform, a company in Milano that is managing the operation and everything from A to Z, including logistics, which trust me, can be very tough in our industry. Yes. But also trying to do what we do at our best, which is being a curator. The reality is that, you know, our vendors were basically artisans, so they couldn't do what they didn't want to do. Especially when it comes to managing interior designers, the expectations are completely different than a final client. So we set up a properly, let's say, executed team that was only managing trade.

40:41So the very first years of Artemis were basically B2C and trade businesses, both online, both digital, with us being hands-on on the operation side for the supply. And this very first part of the company, so Artemis at the origin, lasted until COVID happened. because during COVID, business was basically booming very fast, maybe too fast. So the question we were asking ourselves was, how do we keep up with the growth when this is going to be over? And the second question was, now that people are going to be back to work, hopefully are going to be back to their normal life, how the behavior of luxury clients will change and evolve?

41:29And we discovered that actually the work that we have done was mainly for residential. And there was a completely different world, which is much more tangible. It used to be much more tangible right after COVID of people that really wanted to go out, move their consumption into experiences. We decided to be closer to our clients and we started to open physical offices all over the world. We currently have six offices in three continents. And then in Milano, we said, okay, now we need to actually speak the same language of our clients. And since we have on the opposite side of the table, interior designers and architects, we created our internal team of interior designer, product designers, architects, project managers, only to support the trade in the evolution and the management of the project.

42:29And when you talked about understanding that people had shifted their mindset from wanting physical things to suddenly wanting experiences and that becoming more of a priority, which was certainly a huge wave coming out of COVID, and we referred to it for a time as revenge travel and everybody was booking every flight and going to every concert and following artists all over the world. How did that impact your business and how you thought about your business? Exactly. We actually anticipated that trend and we understood that the shift was coming. So we said, okay, since we have already the list of clients, because at the time interior designers and architects for us were mainly clients, we said, why don't we go out, we meet them in person and we try to establish a relationship.

43:18because maybe if they know that we are there for them, meaning literally and physically there for them, they can actually trust us and they can introduce us much earlier in the process, which allowed us not only to increase the order value for residential, but also to start working on other verticals, including hospitality and retail. What happened was that, you know, people started and to try the service of Artemis. And they moved from buying a few pieces for a residential project into, okay, now that we've done that, why don't we try with a boutique hotel? Let's do the common areas. Or actually we've worked already on the common areas for one project which a couple of pieces were amazing bespoke pieces.

44:08Why don't you do the prototype of this chair because we have 150 rooms and we might need you as a partner for the 150 rooms and not only for the common areas. So step by step, without actually us even realizing it, we became an amazing partner for hospitality, which is, trust me, not something that we had in mind at the time because we come from e-commerce. So for us, it was all about acquiring traffic, converting traffic into clients, converting orders, and try to increase the average order value and the retention of those clients. When you start working on projects and people start to trust you, sky is the limit.

44:47So 2022 was a real shift for us. And we moved from being a curator of amazing Italian products into a partner that put on the table the skills of the artisans, allowing interior designers to realize their projects in a very efficient way. So here's this whole array of Italian artists and craftspeople, and you can customize their work in any way that you can imagine. And you can bring this whole team, not necessarily all collaboratively working together, but you, Artemis, can see to it that each of them is working on a specific product or a whole development of potential products, it sounds like, for projects.

45:34Exactly. So sometimes designers don't even know what they need, So they don't necessarily come with us with a specific product in mind. They might come with us with an idea, a concept, and then we suggest them what's the right product for them. Again, instead of being purely transactional, we are now a partner. And as a partner, we can suggest what are the right producers for that specific product, for that specific price and budget and for that specific timeline, which is another important element when it comes to hospitality and retail projects. They always come to you with very tight deadlines.

46:14Well, exactly. They come to you with very tight deadlines and many European vendors have not been known for hitting those tight deadlines. So I wonder how you have navigated that. I would say that from an operational standpoint, when people ask me, how can you deal with an almost inefficient supply chain. I say, okay, actually we exist because of that. The reality is that we built an infrastructure that was allowing us to sell in over 70 countries in the world and to collect pieces from over 1 ,000 artisans, shipping to 10, 15 ,000 different clients all over the world. And in terms of setup of operational logistics, we were like super strong because we were managing an e-commerce business.

47:05So when you're doing that, you also collect a lot of data. So you know what are the producers you can trust, what are the producers that are always late versus the ones that actually anticipate the deadlines. So you built that layer of knowledge. And when it comes to working on projects, it's much easier because you have tested it to regulate on another channel, which is e-commerce, what are actually the producers you can work with for those projects. Unfortunately, many companies that didn't think long term, they couldn't really keep up with the growth. And as we all know, many e-commerce companies went bankruptcy or stopped their growth just because they didn't understood what was happening on the market.

47:48So during COVID, it was pretty clear to us because we were looking at data that many big, big companies were entering into design home decor categories. So what was happening is the big players doing fashion, they wanted to grow and they started to open their own sections of categories with furniture. And when I was looking at those actions and those choices, I was almost like, oh my God, they don't know what they're entering into. You know, they don't know the logistics. Good luck to them. Exactly. So they don't know what's going to happen. You know, the logistics, they're used to ship, you know, sweaters and beautiful shoes.

48:32And now they need to ship furniture piece, which is much more expensive to ship. It's much more complex. And there is another interesting aspect, which is one of the reasons why e-commerce is not that developed in our industry versus other industry, which is the impact of shipping costs versus the retail price. Now, if I'm shipping watches or shipping luxury fashion items to the world, the impact is approximately 3 % to 7%, including insurance. If you're shipping for a piece of furniture from Italy to United States or from France to Australia, the cost of shipping, it can be almost 40, 50, even, you know, the same amount of money of the item itself.

49:20So how do you manage that? It's just an equation that doesn't work anymore. So our intention was we will never compete, you know, with these big multi-billion dollar companies. is how do we grow is actually to do it in a traditional way. Let's open, you know, physical offices. Let's open procurement teams on the ground. Let's open a beautiful gallery that we now have in New York. Let's go back to talk to people. And this was what saved the company because we doubled our revenue from 20 to 40 million in two years. And as a consequence, we became relevant. and relevance i think it's something that it's almost underestimated uh companies they only look at revenue they only look at the top line or let's say the top line the bottom line but they don't really think about their brand but you become relevant when people can trust you and how do you how do you measure relevance how do you explain or capture how relevant you've become Honestly, we have this amazing Milan Design Week exhibition that's called L 'Appartamento.

50:31And we had 35 ,000 people showing up last year, 1 ,300 editors coming for the press day with thousands of articles and mentions. And that's something that show you that through the physical interaction and through the physical world, even an e-commerce company can change. and even a digital platform can actually shift into a physical platform, which is what we have. Our community didn't necessarily change. It changed the way we interact with them, because we can interact with them in New York, in Miami, in LA, in any city, in a personal way. And through that, people can trust you because they see your face, they see the face of the people that are managing them as an account.

51:16If there is a problem, they can reach out to you. So being there for the clients, it's what changed our business. So coming up at Salone, it sounds like one of the things that will be going on for you is, if I understand, it's the fourth edition of this Apartamento, yes? Yeah, it's the fourth edition of L 'Appartamento. Very, very successful. This year we're going to have Rockwell with David Rockwell and their team. March and White design Urgewan Interiors from the Middle East. Charlie Hapram and Herrero and Sasha Adler from Chicago. It's an amazing roster of designers. and what we do is very simple.

52:01We have the opportunity to be based in Milano with some of the most beautiful, you know, historical architectural buildings and we take over a beautiful palazzo called Palazzo Donizetti and we give designers a room to bring basically their vision of Artemis. And this year is also a very, very big year for us because given the fact that we have been doing product development for designers and for other partners for the last four or five years, we said, OK, you know, we've been doing that for the others. Why don't we do it for ourselves? And we're launching our first Artemis Collection in partnership with Gashot Studio.

52:47and it's a real shift for us as a company moving from what we used to be as a curator or what we used to be as a partner into becoming a real brand in the most beautiful way that we can in a very experiential way which is during Milan-Desen week. So let's talk about that more. So John and Christine Gachot who many listeners will know and our fans have no doubt. They will be creating, if I understand, a furniture collection with you. And this sounds like this is what you're hoping to be the beginning of a process where people will develop collections with you and it will be sold through Artemis as well and on display in Milan for the very first time.

53:40Yes? Exactly. So with John and Christine, We had the pleasure of working for many years on different projects. They had this idea in mind of creating their own collection for many, many years. And I know that many other companies tried to onboard them to design and distribute their collection. But they really wanted to do something that was very, very special. So the design comes from their idea of the perfect living room. It's an interesting conversation because instead of just bringing their design and finding artisans that could execute, the process was, no, we want to bring you to Italy and we want you to work with our artisans to create something special together.

54:24That was a process that allowed them also to discover, you know, what's behind the products, the stories of those makers, why they're working on some specific material, why they don't work with other specific materials. And apart from how fun it was, because they couldn't understand each other because Italian artists cannot speak English. I think Christine and John learned a little bit of Italian, but the collection is going to be beautiful. We're going to sell online on Artemis.com, in Artemis physical spaces, the one in New York, and soon also the one in Milano we are working on as a permanent space, and through selected partners, especially in Asia and markets where we don't operate directly.

55:13Finally, another thing that you've got going on is this champions of craft. so tell me uh briefly what what that is and how you'll be celebrating that in in milan as well tell me about another thing i'll be missing out by not being in milan go ahead go ahead you regret not coming this year so to answer that question we said okay we need to find a way to actually reestablish why we exist which is to support craftsmen preserving those amazing skills that have been there for centuries and centuries and centuries. And now because of the globalization or because of the competition of other producers from all around the world, some of these artisans were just running out of business.

56:00So Artemis really supported the Italian ecosystem to grow so that those artisans that are, at the end of the day, entrepreneurs, they could actually hire more people and those skills could be preserved for another century. But the reality is, how do we actually reestablish that? Because it's always very difficult to, you know, bring in culture and education into a business. So the younger was probably the real champions of craft supporting Italian craftsmanship right now are the designers that we've been working with because they understand the quality. They pay a lot of attention to detail. There is a complete alignment in terms of culture.

56:38And they are the ones who care. They care about preserving those skills because they use those skills every single day for their projects. So Champions of Craft is going to basically reveal every two weeks a story of a different design firm to our consumer clients and really close the loop. So we started with consumer clients and then we became a B2C, B2B, working more on trade. Then we enter into contracts for purely commercial projects. And now with Champions of Craft, we are closing the loop because designers are going to actually be the ones on the stage, be the ones that are going to showcase why they care about craftsmanship and why Artemis is so unique.

57:19And we are presenting their work every two weeks at different design firms to our entire audience of clients. Yeah. Well, that's so interesting. a company born online has realized how important the physical world and all of the events and community have become to all of this. Well, I'm thrilled to get to speak with you and learn so much more about Artemis. I'm envious of everyone that will be in Milan for Salone, but I look forward to hearing a report from you, Marco, when it's all said and done, and I wish you luck with everything. Thank you so much for talking with me. Thank you so much.

57:59And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? A couple things got my eye this week. First of all, our old friend Shauna Tellerman of Modsy fame. Haven't said that. Haven't said Modsy in a long time. You know, when Modsy kind of folded or was sort of acquired by Lenar, Shauna went along with the company and was working at Lenar, the home builder, for at least three or four years or something. She recently announced on LinkedIn she's starting her own AI company that's sort of in the design and architecture space.

58:33I don't exactly know what it is, but I'll certainly be bugging her about that and try to find out what she's up to. And I'm certainly curious to see what that is. Because certainly Madu is a little bit ahead of its time. And maybe her next thing will be cool and worth talking about on the Business of Own podcast. So that was fun. I also saw that another former podcast guest, Dan Rubenstein of The Grand Tourist, another podcast, but kind of a media company really at this point. recently announced a deal where the Grand Tourist was acquired by this thing called Pardone Ventures, I believe it is.

59:03It seems like Dan is going to come out with more print issues and have some financial backing from this investor. So kudos to him and excited to see what's next for the Grand Tourist as well. And as we know from the wellness segment, podcasters are popular. They're powerful, too. And good for Dan and good for podcasters, Fred. I think this can't help but be a good sign for us. I was excited about that announcement regarding Shawna Tellerman and I'm sure the team that she is putting together. And she said she's going to be in the home and architecture space, I think. So hopefully we will hear more from her.

59:36But she's a smart one and one that I was excited to hear is moving on to her next chapter. So I hope we get to hear more soon. What caught you out of this week, Dennis? Well, we were talking earlier about the time that we're in with so many companies being acquired and rolled up. And another prime example of that is this entity that was the former Bed Bath & Beyond. Now I think they're just sort of more beyond than Bed & Bath. But they are aggressively acquiring brands. brands. They are now acquiring Lumber Liquidators, which was once a massive organization with so many retail locations and cabinets to go.

1:00:15And they've already announced that they're acquiring the Container Store, much to my great sadness and dismay. But they're going to elevate that name, the Container Store, and use that as a jumping off point. But it's a really interesting time for this company that also had overstock.com and a bunch of other brands. It's one that we'll have to watch and see how it plays out. But again, a sign of the time that so many of these companies just could no longer go on their own and now they're all part of the artists formerly known at that. Exactly. That's a weird one. We'll see what it all means for the future.

1:01:00All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castagneja. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.

1:01:28Thank you.