The Thursday Show: Do the industry's shipping problems have a solution? Plus: Sophie Lou Jacobsen is on the rise

20:32Fred Nicolaus:And I think that's great. And I hope that that helps everybody do business. But you kind of realize like, you know, there's not going to be a robot that can do anything when the chandelier shows up smashed. You need to know who to call. And so, you know, it shows you that in a very human industry, there's only so much you can do with digital tools. One other quick thing on Caroline's story that just jumped out at me was this notion of repairs. And I think that But like, you know, of course, designers are always upset when something ends up, you know, shows up broken and they have a right to be.

20:57Fred Nicolaus:I also think from vendors perspective, sometimes they want either designers of the receiving warehouse to be a little bit more proactive about making small repairs. You know, sometimes I think a receiver opens up the box. There's one nick and it's like, oh, I don't want to take responsibility for this damage. Let's send it back because that's safer and it'll protect the customer. you know and I I do wish there was more of an infrastructure in our industry or just more broadly of repairing very small little things luxing your product locally you know having a guy or a gal who can come and do these little touch-ups because you know those people would get work you'd save yourself the the freight you'd save the you know the return the timeline would stay on track and I do I you know this is maybe just a wish into the heavens but I I do think that kind of thing would help alleviate some of these issues as opposed to the automatic reflex being let's just return it you know couldn't agree more there there once there once was a great shop in manhattan called gracious home and gracious home is a place sure that a surprising number of designers went to and part of one of the things that designers loved about gracious home many people don't know this but downstairs in the basement there was actually a woodworking shop and a lamp repair shop and they they just had everything because they sold everything and they dealt with all kinds of products.

22:13And people didn't know that downstairs was a little Santa's workshop that was constantly fixing things up for designers on the AD100 list who were just sending things to Grace's home to have them quickly fixed up so they could deliver them ultimately to the client. So that is a huge part of the operation. And I hope that we can figure that out. I'm excited to see this Vanguard program really roll out in 2027. And maybe we'll have Andy on the show to come and talk to us about it. But good for him for bringing all of those trucking companies together and talking about the big issues. Moving on, we're going to talk about Silicon Valley.

22:49This week, Fast Company wrote about tech billionaire Patrick Collison's plan to issue grants towards the invention of a new aesthetic, Fred. That's right. A whole new aesthetic. Did you apply for a grant, Dennis? I have a lot of ideas about a new aesthetic, but we'll get into that.

23:05Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, I wonder if it's too late for me. Anyway, this is a fun story. So Patrick Collison is the CEO and co-founder of this company called Stripe, which is a multi-billion dollar payment processing software company. They power like transactions all over the world. It's a huge company kind of undergirding the infrastructure of a lot of a lot of the world's money. and he's collaborating with an economist named Tyler Cowen who's sort of a famous public intellectual and a libertarian on this project called A Call for a New Aesthetic and basically what they're doing is handing out grants trying to fund people with interesting aesthetic ideas I don't know, I'm very split on whether this is a sign of the end of times or if this is wonderful, I don't know what's your take on this, Dennis?

23:50Well, first of all, if I read the mood in the country, they are wild about the idea of billionaires saying, hey, let's all get together and create a new aesthetic and frankly, a new world order. Yeah, I think that's very much what people are keen about today. But what I think is interesting is, what is this in response to? And is it a reaction or a disappointment about where modern architecture and sort of modernism in general seems to be going. That's what I can't tell. It seemed like he wanted things that were more ornate and more decorative, which I'm sure he's got lots of company there, but what's your sense?

24:35Fred Nicolaus:Yes, exactly. He reads World of Interiors as well. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I don't really follow Patrick Collison that closely, but I was looking at some of his tweets about this, and there was this one kind of like super big brain tweet that kind of referenced Alexander Solzhenitsyn and the German food supply chain that was kind of tying all these threads together and kind of making the point that like a lot of the modern world sort of feels ugly. Why is that? I don't think it was explicitly only just talking about modernism, but there was this kind of sense there was, you know, he juxtaposed this picture of this sort of beautiful old telephone booth.

25:10Fred Nicolaus:I think it was an English telephone booth with like a modern kind of crummy looking one. And it was like, why is this the case that our public infrastructure looks so ugly. And I, you know, he would have a lot of, you know, a lot of support from listeners of this podcast. And I think there's a lot to that, you know, but then there is on the other hand, this sense of like, well, what is the guy who runs a payment processing app? What is he doing? You know, giving out random, you know, grants to artists. But then on the other hand, I'm glad for these people to get grants. I don't know. This one kind of breaks my brain.

25:39Fred Nicolaus:I truly cannot decide this is evil or wonderful. Exactly. And I'm torn in the same way. Artists getting grants. Love it. Particularly coming off of the conversation we were just having about the struggles with art schools and everything else. So I'm all for it. And I'm all for raising this conversation about how mundane public buildings often look and feel today or even public transport. And you go back and look at things that were coming out of an earlier time in the 1900s or even in the mid-1900s, the attention to design was just so much greater. At one point, something triggered me to go back and look at the Gropius House and that whole movement at that time.

26:22And there was just so much thought that went into the design, everything. The Bauhaus movement was so considered. and I think it's a shout out that maybe we're not paying as much attention as we once did. And I'm all for sort of raising that argument. Again, it's just who's bringing up this conversation and is there some undercurrent or some subtext that I'm not fully aware of and that always makes me a little nervous.

26:49Fred Nicolaus:Yeah. Like how does this turn into AI replacing us all is my question. I mean, the other kind of like weird twist of this is like it's not new for like incredibly wealthy people to influence aesthetics. You know, that's, I mean, that's, you know, that's the story on some level of the interior design industry. You know what I mean? I don't think, I don't think that's a new phenomenon. It's, it's got a long and, you know, proud history. So maybe we shouldn't be so surprised by it. And I appreciate that he appears to be engaging with it sincerely. And, you know, Hey, like if praising him gets me a grant, then this is wonderful.

27:20Fred Nicolaus:Let's, let's, let's all apply. Well, I mean, as you say, if, if it makes people appreciate the Chrysler building more as was one of the things that was referenced. I'm all for it. Look at the Chrysler building and look how spectacular that is and more of that. If that's what comes out, great. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of the latest showroom openings and a chat about outdoor kitchens with designer Mandy Chang. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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28:54And we're back. I'm joined now by the founder and designer of Sophie Lou Jacobson. Sophie, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. I feel like if Glassware has an it girl, it is you. It is you. I feel like the New York Times is celebrating you with a big piece. AD put you on the AD100 list. I mean, you are it. How is it all feeling, Sophie? It feels very surreal, I have to say. I'm sure. It feels wonderful. I'm obviously very happy that people like what I do and that it's growing this project. And it's all been kind of one thing after another and all very surprising, but in a delightfully surprising way.

29:45Right. It all sounds like a surprise. And I want to talk about that further because there wasn't an elaborate business plan. McKinsey wasn't brought in to consult on how all of this was going to go down. But it does sound like your design education equipped you with a problem-solving mindset that we often talk about designers, industrial and interior designers, often having this problem-solving mindset. But tell me what that really means. What did you really learn that you later came to apply to this now thriving enterprise that you're building? Well, I think it's exactly that. The program that I did, I went to Central St.

30:34Martins in London and did their product design BA, BA, which product design is how they refer to industrial design. And that particular program was really about, in a way, design thinking before design thinking became a thing. And what is design thinking? I can't wait to hear. Well, you know, I think essentially it's just using the design process to find solutions to any set of problems, any specific problems. So it's extrapolating the way that in design, we're learned to start with a question and end with a solution. And there's a series of processes that we use in order to get that. And at a certain point, I think people realize that problem solving process can be applied to many things outside of creating an object or creating a space.

31:28So yeah, so it was much less about learning a specific craft, learning a specific field of design, but more about this sort of process of finding solutions. And so it's not like I intentionally did this or like it was a conscious act while I was doing it. But I think that naturally, as I started to build a brand and build a business, the same way that I approach a design problem is how I approached this other thing that I was creating. And when I look back, I really feel that. I feel like the brand that I created is a design. It's a creative project. It's been a very creative project, even if not all aspects of it are creative.

32:15And I think that that was really useful. So even if I didn't have a business background, I learned a lot of things on the fly as I needed to. But the way of figuring out what I needed to do and how I wanted to approach things, I think comes from my background as a designer. So let's tell people a little bit about this business and what it has become. And even just the story of you creating a supply chain in Asia and all of that. Again, perhaps not what you had imagined ever doing when you set out? So when I had this small collection of items that I wanted to figure out production for, they were spin-offs of pieces that I had designed for an exhibition a couple years prior or one year prior.

33:10And I hadn't really worked with glass before. I was still discovering everything about it. And I was looking for glassmakers to work with, finding the glassmaker, essentially paying for the time in the studio in a city like New York is very, very expensive. Everything about working with glass is extremely expensive. And that's why the product in the end ends up being very expensive. And all of that has so many reasons for being and are valid reasons. but I was creating a fairly simple, playful set of glassware that I knew who the target audience was going to be. It was probably going to be mostly women around my age in their 20s to early 30s, not necessarily people with the means to buy a luxury item, luxury glassware.

34:06So I realized quite quickly that that method of production wasn't going to work for these pieces. And so I started asking around people I knew that worked in glass in a more industrial manner. And I was introduced to a factory in China that works with Boris Ellicott. And I reached out to them, sent them drawings, had prototypes, I think like a month later, the prototypes were beautiful. and everything about them and about working with them made sense. They were willing to accept really small minimums. The prices were right. The quality was really good. The timelines were right. So I took the prototypes to a wholesale trade show and I told myself if I got enough orders for them to fund production, I would put things into production.

34:56And that's what happened. And so So then we fought COVID, like as in the world, it happened. And the world, you know, we all went into lockdown and everything changed. So at that time, I was stuck at home just like everybody else. The other work that I was doing on the side, you know, dried up. I had nothing else to do except to focus on this project, which I, you know, I really didn't think was going to continue in my mind. That was the last thing that people were going to think about or worry about was glassware. But what actually happened was all of these people were at home, couldn't leave their houses, still working, still having disposable income, but nothing to spend it on.

35:44And there was this massive homeware boom. And I was receiving a lot of orders. And production was really all over the place in terms of how long things would take. Like, you know, before the pandemic, my understanding is that at least with the factory that I was working with, it was a 30 to 45 day lead time for production. Now, some orders were taking six months or longer to produce. I had no history of sales, no patterns to lean on in terms of knowing how much to order for six months or eight months. And so the orders were speeding up and production was slowing down. And all of a sudden I had to figure out how much I needed to order in advance in order to be able to continue selling, which was not, you know, something that I had ever experienced before or I didn't know how to do that.

36:44And it was really, really stressful. And I started trying to build out all these spreadsheets and, you know, try to map it out, try to make some sense, try to find patterns. And I absolutely couldn't because there were no patterns at the time to look towards. My whole first year or first year and a half of sales was one of the most insane economic times in recent history in terms of how, you know, the world was functioning, how the markets were functioning, how production was functioning, shipping, shipping was a whole other thing. So it was really hectic. And at the end of the day, it was just a lot of guessing and some mistakes and things working and things not working.

37:26And it was a very, very, very stressful year until at a certain point, which was almost two years after I had started the project initially, I hired my first part-time employee to sort of take off a lot of things from my plate. And that's when things started to sort of function more fluidly. But that was just the beginning. And there were so many other moments or problems that I was then faced with that I had to figure out and then either hire a consultant for. Every time it was just like a new chapter, a new problem to figure out and finding the solution was the next hurdle. But the numbers that I was working with were still within a manageable scope.

38:15And so there wasn't much i hadn't really i hadn't hired many employees i had one one employee working part-time um i never made any big investments that i needed to reel back because i was no longer receiving these orders so all i really had to do was figure out okay well what can i do now to replace those orders so that i can continue growing and i think two things came out of that one yes people were out in the world and wanting to spend money on other things. But when the world reopened, experiences became really, really important. People wanted to spend time together. And luckily, the brand that I had created being tableware, glassware, really celebrates those moments.

39:03So I was able to, I think that that's when I really started zeroing in on the storytelling aspect of the brand. And that's when the brand itself became a thing because I was, I started focusing on storytelling. So it wasn't just the products, but it was, how do you speak about the products? How do you communicate them? What's the narrative? How are you making this world essentially compelling to others to sort of be part of this cultural movement that was happening as the world was reopening? So that was one side. The other side was I realized that there was a certain part of the market that can ride economic swings more or less easily than others.

39:51And that's the higher end market. And so the other thing I started to think about was what can I bring into my product offering that appeals to that sector? And that's mostly interior designers that are designing homes, it's galleries, it's collectors, more in the collectible design realm or art object. And not necessarily because I was like, I need to do this to survive, but because I was like, there are really interesting conversations happening over there also that I would love to be a part of. So I started working on different scale objects. Coming back to local production, that was a huge part of it.

40:36Now that the world had reopened, how can I get closer to the production of these pieces and be more involved and work with people in my neighborhood, in my city? and that's when I started making my collectible bases and eventually lighting and um and it was really important in all aspects of the brand because I soon realized that now I had two markets that I could reach um and sort of lean in at different moments when I needed to and I also learned so much about the craft of glass making and the history of glass making and the possibilities of glassmaking and this much more romantic, poetic aspect of this material, which definitely permeated back into my tableware collection as both things developed in tandem.

41:33I'm curious your perspective on collectible design. And now, as you say, as you've entered that conversation, to put it in the framing that you did, what is the conversation like going on over there? And what in your mind makes something collectible? Do you limit the availability of a series of something? Or how do you think about it? And why do you think it's suddenly emerging as this movement or just such a growing part of the market suddenly in the past? 10-15 years, however long we want to think about it. Well, I think that there has just been a general movement interest in design and design objects culturally.

42:21I think that a lot of that does have to do with the internet and social media. A lot more people are seeing what design is, are learning about it or have been learning about it. Whereas before, it was really kind of a very specific group of people that followed what was going on in design, usually either designers or architects or interior designers. But it's not part of people's everyday thought in the way that fashion is or art, which are much bigger industries and much more widely taught, you know, in schools or more magazines that talk about them. Just much more part of the culture. Design has never really been like that.

43:09But I think that because of social media, where, you know, every aspect of culture has gotten so much more attention because of the way that images are shared and the way that people communicate. And, you know, it's just, yeah, it's constant flow of information from everyone everywhere all the time. And so I think that it's just, it's that. It's more eyes on design and what it is. And of course, when that happens, more people are interested, more people want to get involved. maybe you know that's gallerists all of a sudden seeing the interest in in design and the possibilities for them or maybe that's people that you know are in the fashion world or in the art world that um see this sort of crossover uh between what they're doing and what designers are doing or i think you know there's a lot more collaboration between all of these industries And so that has sparked this movement of collectible design, essentially, because it's still not, in my opinion, people really being interested in traditional industrial design, or I would say not so much everyday objects, but these more craft-focused, expressive, experimental, conceptual, sometimes pieces that are really interesting and spark conversation or spark debate.

44:38And it's much more leaning in the art world in that respect than what we traditionally think of design, which is somebody creating a commodity, essentially. Yeah. I think about it in part, and you've talked about fashion, and I know that you participated in Milan Design Week, for example. And coming out of Milan, there's always the group that complains that fashion has entered the space in too big a way right or that it's it's too crowded it makes me think of the of the great sort of yogi berra quote of you know nobody goes there anymore it's too crowded but obviously this whole world descends upon this scene and talks about design and thinks about design and points to what may or may not next year be considered good design.

45:28We'll see. But I wonder what you made of that whole scene and how it made you think about the very thing that you're doing and the different worlds that you could enter into. Well, what I worry about when I see what's happening in Milan is that fashion has a very different cycle than design does. Design traditionally does not have cycles. It doesn't have seasons. You're making an object that is supposed to last for a long time. And you're not supposed to get rid of it in four months or six months or a year from your collection. I think that there's also this thing that design, even collectible design of the past, is always formed around a conversation on what society needs.

46:20how can we either critique or enhance or advance the way that we live in this world and when salone was a more closed moment for designers those conversations were at the forefront of what everybody was doing and looking for what worries me about fashion coming into Salone and design at large is that we are at risk of losing these conversations and losing the time and space to have these dialogues because it's becoming part of this fast cycle of consumerism. I definitely feel that more and more every time I go to Salone where there are sometimes really beautiful, really interesting exhibitions and works coming out of these big fashion house installations.

47:22But a lot of the time, they are taking a lot of space and a lot of attention away from actual trained designers who have been in this industry for decades or are emerging. And this is their time to talk about their work, to show their work. And I think that that is is problematic for the industry. What's the answer? What's the solution, Sefi? I would encourage the fashion houses to, rather than take space away from design, work with design, use this time to enhance the field and give designers the means and the space and the audience to do their work. Because I don't think we're going to go backwards now.

48:14I don't think that things are going to go back to the way they used to be. And essentially nothing should ever go back to the way that it used to be. But I think that a lot could come out of these collaborations if they were done in more respectful and collaborative ways. Yeah. Yeah, no, I thought about it in part too because it also made me think when you talked about design addressing what society needs, which I think is such an essential element that sometimes gets lost in all of this, I wonder what we make of this moment where glassware and sort of dinnerware and sort of what's going on for people at this moment in time, It wasn't that long ago that we worried about many of these companies going away because people weren't living that kind of lifestyle.

49:10And we were told they weren't going to be entertaining at home as much. And they weren't. They were getting rid of the dining room and all of this that we were told. And now suddenly you come along and it seems to be changing the perception. And I wonder what you think of that and what you're seeing and what you make of it. Yeah. And again, you know, there's many other brands and people, designers working within the space. It's definitely, I'm part of a movement, so to speak. But I think that it's a movement that is, once again, having your ear to the ground when it comes to what are people looking for at this particular moment in time.

49:56And what people are looking for right now is connection, human connection. I think a sort of grounding sense of place and home. And I would say distraction in the sense of like something to bring levity and joy like we were talking about before. And I think that for maybe a couple decades prior to COVID, society was sort of on this fast track of change that came with technology. And everybody was really excited about it. And like you were saying, we were getting rid of the dining room and we were creating apps for delivering food at home and you don't have to cook anymore. And it's this sort of newness, exciting way of living, exciting way of structuring cities.

50:47And I think it all started with the iPhone, with this idea that apps exist. But with COVID, essentially, and the changes that happened at that time, which are part of a lot of other things happening at the time, a lot of changes happened around the general years before and after COVID. there's this increasing sense of insecurity and instability and I think the most basic thing which is human connection and home people are craving and so I don't think you know that I had this grand idea and you know started selling it and marketing it I think it was more that I was responding to my own desires and what I was seeing with my peers and people around me and what, you know, was being asked for of communities that I was a part of or witnessing.

51:40And so, yeah, I think it's just a general desire for these things. Well, so to that point, as we sort of wrap up this conversation, I want to come back to how you are thinking about Sophie Lou Jacobson, the creative director of Sophie Lou Jacobson, And what that means in terms of the decisions you've made about this brand that you've created. It seems, as we were talking earlier, you've created a world and an identity and sort of an entertaining sensibility. And you're very much in the mix. You're a presence in all of that. And so how are you thinking about that? and where can you imagine that taking you in the future?

52:29I mean, it's a huge question that's really been at the forefront of my mind for the past few years, past couple of years especially. I just launched a new website a couple of weeks ago and that was part of a larger sort of rebranding that I've been working on for a year and a half or so. So it's a rebranding from a graphic identity standpoint. But of course, when you're thinking about that, you also are wondering, okay, well, what is this brand? What's the story? What are our values? So the past couple of years, I've been thinking about what the future of Sophie Lou Jacobson, the brand is. And naturally, what does that mean for me as a person whose name is Sophie Lou Jacobson?

53:21Because I love this brand and I love this project and I want it to grow and I want to continue to evolve it and for it essentially to become something that's much larger than myself. And I have to think about the future in regards to what that does mean for my own name. And I've questioned whether I should change the name of the brand through the rebranding in order to protect my name. I've also wondered, you know, is it important that myself as a person is still involved in the storytelling? What are the limits? And where do I come in and where do I go out when I'm thinking about the evolution?

54:10Because in 20 years, I still want this brand to be going strong. But who knows if anybody's going to care about what I'm cooking for dinner, you know? Not that anybody cares now, but like, you know, it's things that we are all sort of used to from founders at this particular moment in time. And truthfully, I don't really have the answer. I'm still thinking about it. But what I figure is that the brand is about to be seven years old. Even if it wasn't planned, what I started as a named design studio has turned into a named house, a brand that is my name. And I think I just have to sort of see what happens with it.

54:57I think last time we were talking about Jörg Jensen for this reason, at this point, decades and decades later, the brand has this distinct identity. We know it stems from a human, the original designer and founder of it, but the brand stands on its own legs. And that's what I hope will happen with Sophie Lou Jacobson, that over time, my personal presence will be less important and the products that carry the values that I started the brand with, that will still be felt. but that the objects themselves, the brand itself is its own thing. And at the end of the day, if I do this well, if I do this correctly, it has the potential of living on much longer than I will, I hope.

55:52So in a way, it's more important that this can be strong and carry itself rather than just protecting my name for me. Yes. You know, you mentioned this idea of being a creative director, and I said to you last time that increasingly I'm seeing my role as creative director. Currently I am the only designer designing objects on the team. But I think this idea of understanding what the brand is means that you can communicate it to somebody else who can design products with the same philosophy, with the same aesthetic, with the same general way of thinking. They might not, will not design exactly what you would have designed, but they're part of the same family.

56:42And so instead of being the only one that, you know, understands what this logic is, that understands how to get from point A to point B in order to make an object that belongs to the world of Sophie Lou Jacobson, I need to understand what that process is so I can communicate it to another designer on the team. And that's when I'm in the process of figuring out right now how to do that. Yes. What would the standard operating procedure look like for the next person? And when you were named to the AD100, and I wasn't sure if that was heralding the arrival of this whole other part of a business and a design studio that was perhaps about to make a meaningful leap there.

57:32First of all, how did that happen? And congrats on that again. Thank you. But tell me how that came about and then what it means and what it has meant for you. Yeah, I mean, I was very, very surprised and honored and thrilled to be a part of that list. So how it came about was I was on the AD100 list for France, because each country that has AD has their own list. But I think that in France, maybe they have some different criteria, because in the US, it's essentially only interior designers that get named, or architects that get named to the list. I could be wrong, but that's what I see the most.

58:14So I was absolutely, you know, as surprised as anybody to see myself on that list. And I was, I believe that I was dominated by the art director of A.D. France, who worked with my pieces a lot on photo shoots. And so I, you know, I think that that's how my name rose to prominence in thinking of the nominees for that year. And to be honest, I don't know what the logic was. And I hope that it is thinking that, yes, the objects that fill the spaces are just as important as the people that create the spaces and should be part of the conversation in the same way, like I said before. So hopefully there'll be more of that for other designers that are working on this scale to be included in lists like this.

59:12Yes. I mean, as you say, I wonder if it speaks to a wider way of thinking about that and a broader conversation, a bigger table of sorts around that. But it wasn't, it sounds like, meant to suggest, oh, wait till you see my interior design work that I'm going to be rolling out into the world. I never saw it. Never saying ever. I would love to work on interiors. I really would, but not anytime soon. I don't see that happening. Right. You're still trying to figure out what this brand is and where it goes. Exactly. Well, I'm thrilled that it was part of putting you on a lot of people's radar and a lot of people discovering you.

59:59Yeah, that was huge. Yes, yes. And I was thrilled to see the write-up in The Times, and I'm excited to see all of the attention that you've gotten. And I think it's great. And as I say, I'm a fan, and you're bringing so much joy into product design and into people's lives. And I think you're just sharing a really important message that goes along with that. So I congratulate you on all of that. And I hope you figure out how to hold on to your name and keep me posted on that. And I look forward to seeing where this all goes for you. And I thank you for making the time to talk with me about it. Thank you so much.

1:00:40It's been really fun to talk to you.

1:00:47And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye.

1:00:54Fred Nicolaus:Fred, what caught your eye? Food52 caught my eye. Last time we checked in, they were going bankrupt, getting sold off kind of under sad circumstances to America's Test Kitchen. But, you know, the good news is that while Food52 and its original incarnation was not to be, you know, the brand still exists. And America's Test Kitchen is a good place for it to land. and they've appointed a new editor-in-chief, Leidy Hoyk, who apparently was Ina Garten's personal assistant for six years, which I love. What a resume item. But very experienced, very well-known person in the culinary world. It seems like they're taking it seriously as a brand.

1:01:30Fred Nicolaus:I mean, I have no idea about the inner workings there at the moment, but just a good reminder that on the internet, nothing ever really dies. And I'm hopeful that Food52 will find some stability in its next incarnation. Did you see that one too, Dennis? I did, and I'm excited. And I hope, as you say, This is a whole new chapter for Food 52. I think America's Test Kitchen is the perfect place for it to be. So I wish the new editor great success. Very much so. And my favorite stuffing recipe comes from Food 52. So they have to stay online for no other reason than to preserve that. But cut your eye this week, Dennis.

1:02:03Absolutely. Two things caught my eye. One, I want to give a huge congratulations to a friend of the show, Ben Reinhart, who has a new job. He's left El Decor, and he's going to be the American editor for the British mag Homes and Gardens. We've had Sarah Spateri on the show, and I think we might be having her on soon again to talk about the new publication that is rolling out. But an exciting new job for Ben. I wonder how he'll be dividing his time between America and the UK. He's a traveler, that one. So I'm excited for him, and I wish him great success.

1:02:39Fred Nicolaus:The hardest working man in design media. I have a feeling he can handle it. He's a pro. To be sure. The other thing that caught my eye, and we had the founders of Homeworthy on the show not too long ago, and they bemoaned the fact that many people think that the Instagram clips that they show are the entire show. And no, no, there's a whole big long video on YouTube. They recently posted about Anne Pine of Macmillan. And she is a personal favorite of mine. and she recently received an honorary doctorate from the New York School of Interior Design. And there is a fantastic home worthy of her apartment and lots of her mother's influence in the home and lots of great stories.

1:03:24Anne Pine is just an enjoyable figure on many levels, but also great decor and a really fun tour. So do check that out if you have a chance.

1:03:35Fred Nicolaus:She's got four libraries in that apartment. It was a really fun tour. Yes, it's a very fun tour. And Fred and I had a very fun time up in the Macmillan offices a while back when we were recording a show there. So it all came back to me, Fred. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Katsunyena.

1:04:10I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.