The Thursday Show: Does AI know your firm exists? Plus: Tiffany Duggan of British design powerhouse Studio Duggan

19:51Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, this is interesting. I have to just say, so it's, you know, this fall, the show is happening in Greenwich Village, which if you're not familiar with New York is downtown, normally Kips Bay on the Upper East Side. This is just the best detail about the property. So it's an 8 ,700 square foot, 1839 Georgian brick townhouse. Here are the two most famous inhabitants, John Philip Sousa and Kylie Jenner. Both have lived. If only we could go back in time and tell John Philip Sousa about Kylie Jenner, I think you'd be delighted. I mean, they both have so much in common. Am I right? Yes. I mean, you can see them hanging out together in the place.

20:19Fred Nicolaus:They're both very talented, talented individuals. Anyway. Yeah. I mean, I think this is interesting just because, you know, I don't think the organizers would have done this if they hadn't been forced to last year. You know, they had this they had a place on the Upper East Side. It fell through. So they had to look elsewhere. They found a place downtown. And, you know, we joked on the show. Oh, my gosh. Like what? What a scandal. Kips Bay is below 42nd Street. But I think it went really well, according to the article that we published. It was one of their most well attended. I think moving into the fall also was advantageous in a certain regard.

20:48Fred Nicolaus:And so I think it really opened up the horizon of, OK, well, here's what this preeminent, probably the most famous show house here's. It can be a different thing than it has historically been. And it's pretty interesting. Well, exactly. And I think it sends a message, whether intentionally or otherwise, that that Kipps Bay is evolving. There's been a lot of conversation about how Kipps Bay over the years has appeared in different markets in Palm Beach and Dallas and that the whole notion of what the Kipps Bay Showhouse is about continues to evolve and grow. And New York City itself has changed quite dramatically.

21:25And there's a great deal of wealth concentration downtown, particularly in this area where this house is. So in a way, it makes a lot of sense.

21:33Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Kipps Bay has had always sort of benefited from being kind of on the Upper East Side network. And, you know, people would know people and they'd get a townhouse. But I think, you know, the Upper East Side, it's still a vibrant place. And there's certainly a lot of affluence there and a lot of great designers. But I think there's new pockets of wealth in New York. Like I think of all the young families that are in Tribeca. And if you go down there, a lot of really cool design galleries are opening up. I think a lot of the heat is down there. And so it makes sense that Kipps Bay is not just about the Upper East Side.

22:02Fred Nicolaus:It's about New York and, you know, the New York design scene. And we were just talking about this a few weeks ago. I think the New York design scene is changing. There's a lot of questions about what are going to happen with the two, you know, big design centers on the Upper East Side. Brands are opening up in, you know, second floor apartments and they're opening up, you know, in townhouses and they're exploring new ways to show up. And I think like New York is changing. Kips Bay should change, too. I agree. I mean, I was talking yesterday with Alex Papachristidis, an Upper East Side fixture, if ever there There were one and also a former participant in the Kips Bay showhouse.

22:37And he was delighted by this because, as we've been saying, this speaks to how New York City has grown and expanded and how people are living in lots of different parts of the city. And I think also we'll just do a great deal to bring attention to Kips Bay, the organization in a whole new neighborhood and a different group of people. So I think it's a great move. It's going to be an exciting house. And I hope that the music of John Philip Sousa will be playing as we enter the house. I think that would be a great add-on. That'd be a great touch for sure. Indeed. Finally, just to cool us off, we're going to talk about snow rooms.

23:21The New York Times last week wrote about the latest high-end home amenity, indoor winter wonderlands. That's right, Fred, snow rooms. Yes.

23:31Fred Nicolaus:Now, this has to be seen to be believed. But apparently, according to The New York Times, this is the hottest new thing, is that you get a room in your house that is climate controlled and has a snow machine in it so that when it's sweltering outside, you can step indoors and have a little hot cocoa and have a little mini snowball fight. We're almost talking about this just so we can say the word snow room, but it is truly wild. I don't know what your reaction to this was. Well, I was so relieved because back in my day, a snow room might have been a party room where people were just sitting around doing cocaine.

24:04So I was glad this was so much more family friendly when I discovered, in fact, it's a winter wonderland. And it's hilarious to me that now this has actually been incorporated on numerous super yachts. And, right. And I mean, in the Middle East, there's several developments for this. So, I mean, it's something that makes me think retailers need this for their for their holiday shopping excitement buildup. Come to the snow room and and experience John Darian's fabulous Christmas decor right in a room where it's actually snowing. I think that would be fabulous.

24:39Fred Nicolaus:I think someone's going to do it. I think you joke, but I think there will be a retail snow room. This taps into a couple things for me, sort of bigger trends. One is this sort of longevity wellness thing. You know, I don't know that having a snow room will make you live a year longer, but I do think it kind of speaks to the fact that the really cool high-end amenities aren't like some gold, you know, plated champagne on tap situation. It's something that's like an environment that you go into. And I think it's kind of tangentially related to the cold plunge, which is apparently yesterday's news.

25:07Fred Nicolaus:You know, if you have a cold plunge pool, that's so over. Now you need a snow room. So I think that's one part of it. But something about this is, to me, just indicative of the crazy K-shaped economy that, you know, I can't shut up about. I mean, these things, ironically enough, are only$130 ,000. That's where they start, which, you know, there's - The starter snow room. The starter snow room is$130 ,000. Yeah, your Model A snow room. But I mean, you know, there's collectible design that goes for more than that. So it's not it's not crazily expensive, but there's something about like, you know, wanting to control the elements.

25:39Fred Nicolaus:You know what I mean? It's like it's like the ultimate luxury. It's like I don't need to be outside where climate change is happening. I can go into my snow room. So I don't know. It's just it's I'm aware that these things aren't even necessarily the most expensive thing that money can buy. But something about it really activated that part of my brain. I don't know if it did for you as well. I really want to see the fine print on the health benefits of the snow room. I think they're just having a good time. really they're like oh no i need to come out of the sauna and go into my snow room really do you i'm not sure but but i but i love it it's fun and listen if you have that 130 grand just sitting around you know why not get a snow room and if a designer's making a margin on it i'm happy precisely and and i hope that i get invited on the yacht with the snow room very soon all right that's it for the news but there's plenty more to check out on business of home.com including August's Can't Miss Design events and Sean Lowe's advice on managing risk.

26:34We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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27:32And we're back. I'm joined now by Interior Decorator. Let's go with that, Tiffany, shall we? Let's go with Interior Decorator. A whole discussion around that. But I'm joined by Interior Decorator Tiffany Duggan of Studio Duggan. Thank you so much for joining me. Hi, Dennis. It's great to be chatting to you. And I like the way that sounded. Okay. I'm, you know, I'm very in the decorator camp these days. So I, but I know not everyone is there with me. So we found a middle ground, even though we should point out, you've been to design school. Thank you. Right? You passed the exam. Yes. Just. Congrats on that.

28:14And was that a harrowing experience for you? Am I bringing back painful memories? It was. It was quite full on. I did like a blended learning course at KLC at the design center because I was working full time, but I was also pregnant and having a baby. Listen to you. Listen to all you turn out to be capable of doing. You're working, you're pregnant, you're taking a design exam. I'm even more impressed, Tiffany, than I already was with you. Thank you. Yes. I don't know. And I want to hear more about that, actually, because you coming to design was a bit of a pivot. And I want to hear about that.

28:54Tell me a little bit about your background. Yeah, it's funny. It wasn't, there wasn't a grand plan. I mean, when I got my first experience of working life used to be in TV. My mom worked in TV. So I would go and kind of, you know, do a few internships. And then I became a researcher. And it was really good fun. And then I think probably from that, I thought, well, this is great fun, but I think I prefer doing what the guys are doing on sets, you know. So I ended up just sort of quite randomly choosing a scenic art and set design course at uni. And then I sort of felt at that point like a natural progression to get more into the interior design side of things.

29:34So I started off quite, you know, doing small projects for friends of friends, a living room here, something there. and then I really enjoyed it and actually I was lucky enough that one of the one of the friends I had helped with had a property development company so I went to work with him but eventually I thought no I'd really like to sort of work with clients and I think also I was probably always looking for something a bit more permanent I think I'd sort of done quite similar quite a similar job in terms of you know sets or styling or property but none of everything was sort of this temporary solution.

30:10So I thought interior design was where I wanted to go. So yeah, I went to KLC and did the course while I was working. Eventually, I set up on my own. And how long after school did you actually start your own firm? I think it was probably about a year after. And I would say that I was quite lucky because I was when I first started working for the property developer I was sort of ranging the team for him so I'd make sure that we had all the consultants that we needed and I was kind of that go-between person and then towards the end I was doing the interior design for the projects that we were taking on so I was quite lucky because I was both doing the projects and doing the course so I was able to sort of any you know issues or problems that came up I was able to ask the question and think about you know well how should i have done this or what should i have put differently in the schedule so that that wasn't the sort of misinterpreted um but one of the things i do always say and i definitely think is that you know with hindsight i would have loved to have worked in a few other design firms because you know it was quite a small company it was really me um the developer and eventually i had sort of an assistant for the last couple of years but I think there is nothing I would suggest more than going to work in a few different places and seeing how different people do things before starting off on your own.

31:38Well, I'm so glad to hear you say that because I mean, if there's any advice when people say, what have you learned from all the people you've spoken to? I mean, so many people have said to me, yes, go work for somebody else. Go work. I mean, if you can go work for Colfax and Fowler, if you can go work for Veer Granny or whoever, I mean, should you be so lucky? Do that. Yes, exactly. And for as long as you can, honestly, because there's so much to be learned. And so did you find that when you finally did go out on your own, that there were a lot of things you quickly had to learn on the fly? Yeah, I think there were.

32:18And like I say, I think it was sort of unusual things, like not necessarily the sort of technical side of things, which I had studied and i did know but i think just sort of um so just sort of yeah a lot of probably to do with just running the business and working in a kind of organized way and um and i think you know also on another level probably sort of not having um watched and learned from someone else and how they interact with their clients because i think when i when i first started and i learned this quite quickly that you know there are some obviously i have my own opinions but you know it's a it's a service-based industry and i sort of felt like i was obviously there to do what i was being asked of and what i was being asked to do um but i think there are times when actually people are very happy for you to disagree with them if you know you're you can explain why that doesn't quite work it isn't quite the case and i think i was probably a bit nervous about doing that at first and I remember having one conversation like really early towards probably one of my first projects and I remember the client saying to me no I just don't know whether this consultable we were in there in the entrance hall and she's saying I just don't know whether it should go on this wall or on this wall and I probably still to this day think it really actually in this instance didn't really matter which wall it went on either would have worked quite well and we could have made it work but I remember sort of I kept saying that and she kept asking and I sort kept saying that and then i realized that what she really needed me to do was say 100 yes on this you needed to be definitive i am the expert it absolutely belongs on this wall that's what she needed right yeah that's what we're doing yeah exactly and i think that's so interesting about human nature in general it turns out more often than not people want to be led they want yeah they want to be directed they're they're hiring you because they they want you to be the expert right and to tell them but it it takes a while to to figure that out yeah and i think that and it's this sort of constant sort of balance between you know we believe really strongly that our you know the homes that we create for our clients should be reflections of them and their lives and both how they live their lives but also what they like and you know their kind of a point of view and obviously that tends to carry with us with it a bit of ours as well um but i think that it's really important to us that that sort of resonates but I think what we want to make sure that we do is kind of get to know them well at the beginning of the project make sure we feel clear and understand what it is that they like and what they want to achieve but then I think after that it's nice to be able to sort of to see that through I think that projects only get messy where there is that sort of you know if there is ever a lack of trust or you know if you sort of I think it's really important to understand what the client wants and then to be able to sort of deliver on that as a whole.

35:14Well, I think that's such a great point. And you and I have talked in the past about the fact that often clients don't have the language to describe what it is they really want or even a clear understanding of what it is they really want. They might have seen images of things that resonate with them for one reason or another, but often it's hard for most people to really clearly articulate their style or their real desires, which is part of what I think is related to the trust. I think the trust is that I'm going to tell you and you're going to listen and understand and come back to me with something that makes sense based on what you've heard.

35:53Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. and I think that it's I almost never try and sort of make anyone describe with words what they want because I think it's so difficult I find it so difficult so they must find it so difficult um so we show a lot you know we often ask for sort of a handful of images and we're like please it doesn't have to be too but you know just three or four just just a few images which is sort of the right sort of feel and it's purely to sort of understand where the boundaries lie so we'll normally kind of put some in that we're not really sure they will like just to check so that we know um that we're sort of on the right line um and yeah and i think it's really useful and i think what is also useful is making sure that we're clear on what it is that they're liking from those images so it's not just yeah i like that image because sometimes i think well they must like that beautiful color scheme and then oh gosh no i don't like the color scheme i love the silent, you know, so making sure you know what it is.

36:49And culturally, there's kind of a shocker to you, Tiffany, but culturally, the British often, often they don't say what they're really thinking or feeling as readily as other cultures, like Americans, for example. And so I wonder, is that even more challenging to draw your, and I know you work with American clients as well. So I'm wondering, comparing and contrasting, is one group sort of easier to draw out, or is it easier to get people to speak their mind with one group or another? Or is that a misconception? No, I don't think, I have to say, I think maybe it is actually, Dennis. Okay, good.

37:29Let's clear that up then. Let's clear the air. I don't think, yeah, I don't think I've sort of come across that being a point of difference. I think definitely American clients seem a lot more at home with and used to using a designer. And I think they're more sort of comfortable with the idea. I think not all of our English clients possibly are, whereas I think it's just a much more sort of common situation in America. So I think they probably, a lot of our American clients, they understand like the process and what's involved and it's a bit more natural. So tell me what on earth made you take on all of the challenges of launching Trove.

38:06But you're about eight years or so into the design business and you decide to launch another business alongside it. Tell us about that and what on earth you were thinking. I don't know, Dennis. And I'm teasing you, obviously, of course, but I mean, massive undertaking. Yeah. Right? Let's talk about that. Yeah, massive undertaking. And I think probably, you know, it was probably for the best that I had no idea just how big an undertaking it would be. I think like reasons, there were a few. I think, first of all, I think, you know, admittedly, it was probably a bit of a passion project for me. So there was something that I think I'd always sort of had a yearning to have a collection and have a sort of bricks and mortar shop as well as the website.

38:55But I think also, you know, after years of designing houses, we were sort of constantly, our most common question was, you know, where can I get this from? and you know what fabric is this and it just seemed as though it seemed as though both there were a lot of people out there that couldn't find exactly what they were after and we sort of felt the same which is why actually we designed so much custom pieces for so many custom pieces for for our projects and I wanted to make it easier for customers to source pieces that were actually quite tricky for them to source without a designer so we're sort of in a really good place now so we're finally getting to that next stage where we're sort of looking to actually, you know, do some outreach.

39:41Well, right. I mean, and it's taken a while. And also, it's a very complex and challenging environment to know what the best outreach really is these days. And that's why I'm curious how the design business supports the online and the retail business and how your own awareness, people discovering you. For example, and we'll get to this, but I mean, you just wrapped up Wow House at Chelsea Harbor, right? Which I assume lots of people saw. But I wonder how you think about all of that feeding and supporting the efforts that you're making and is all of that part of the marketing efforts for everything that you're doing?

40:30Yeah, I think that that's actually been something I've sort of been thinking about more recently. I was always a little bit nervous at first. You know, Trove and Studio Dog are run as sort of very separate, you know, they're separate teams. Obviously, there's me between the two of them. And there's Jodie, our sort of studio manager who runs between the two and bookkeeping. But in terms of like teams of people on the ground sort of working, they're kept separate. um and i think i was a little bit nervous at this i didn't want clients to feel as though sort of trying to you know push them my own my own products too much um so i sort of was a bit hesitant but i think we've we slightly got over that recently um because look you know it's it's not uh for anything else other than it's it's really quite natural you know they're all pieces i've designed they're all pieces that i really like otherwise we wouldn't be selling um and they they you know they really do sort of um feel very us and uh you know all of the sort of various options that we do things in makes it really easy to use them in lots of projects so you know certainly not you know some projects are doing some projects are just sort of it's not quite right you know they're much more contemporary or it's just a slightly different feel and we do sort of work on quite a varied selection of projects but I would say probably 90 % of the time some Trove pieces get into Studio Duggan projects which is really lovely and it's nice you know it's nice for us on the Trove side to be able to have those images and to be able to also just have the experience of working with ourselves and you know that's important too and I'd say it now goes the other way um and sometimes we design something for a studio double project and we're like oh we love that so much you know we'd love to do a sort of version of that um so it's yeah it kind of it does work both ways it's a good sort of testing ground of making sure that we're like right what what do we need um and then sort of you know we feel like it really works well introducing it into the collection.

42:35I wonder for you how you think about the two businesses and often, as you were just suggesting, they can support one another in terms of the creative process. But for you in terms of thinking about, part of where I'm going with this is often designers in America will say to me, really, clients are so exhausting.

42:59Fred Nicolaus:I need to find another revenue source that one day will help me have fewer clients and less of that and more something that I can have greater control over, right? And people try to build some other business. And listen, some people do it through licensing and some people do it through collaborations and all of that. You've taken on a much heavier lift and are doing the business yourself. But is part of your thinking tied up in that? I think it's not so much that I dislike our clients. Of course not. Of course not. They're all great people. They're not demanding at all. They're the best. No, not at all.

43:48But I think there is something to be said for the fact that it's not very scalable. right um and it's not very scalable in the way that i don't want it to be scalable we were at one point a few years ago quite a few years ago now probably sort of six seven years ago we actually went up to i think we were sort of 16 17 at one point which was just too big for me it was just not i wasn't it wasn't for me um so we've sort of found our sort of happy place which is sort of seven or eight of us on the design team so there's normally um sort of three pairs so our senior designers and junior designers work in pairs and then there's me and then sometimes we have you know there might be a sort of care technician who's helping us or an architect or you know another designer and then there's there's you know sort of more sort of studio support roles and that that works really well and i feel like i can still sort of be as involved as i i want to but unless it's set up in a really different way to how it is at the moment it can't get bigger than that and controlled unless you know my role within that looks very different right um so i think that I do see Trove as something that can be much more scalable without me um being as involved you know in every single decision and actually you know that will be the best thing for it because there are things that I'm really good at and there are things that I'm less good at um and you know that there are other people that are really good at those things um so I definitely yeah i definitely see trove as being um the path of the business that can be um that can be a bigger thing than studio duggan because i don't you know i i love studio duggan i want to keep doing kind of what we're doing now i would like it's really quite similar in about 10 years time in terms of the size and scale of it and right and the number of projects yeah so what does that mean how many projects do you do at studio duggan a year roughly do you take on well at any one time we would normally have sort of two to three projects per group so seven to nine projects at a time i wonder coming coming back to the marketing i wonder there's so much focus these days on the the ever changing algorithm of of instagram which which for many designers has been the primary tool, right, to help them build awareness of their work.

46:25And now Instagram is rewarding reels versus still images, which are your nice portfolio images that you want to have out there. And Instagram wants much more of, well, you, you on camera. And you're great on camera. So I'm assuming that's not a big challenge for you, but it is different and it is a little bit unsettling and unnerving for many. And I'm wondering how you are thinking about it and adjusting to it. Yeah. So I think it's not my favorite thing to do, but I did have to do Christ Bisfits because of Browhouse. And actually, I realized it wasn't all that bad. Sometimes it's actually quite fun.

47:13so i um so yeah i i think definitely i need to start doing uh a little bit more um and i did actually have a conversation with the the team a couple of weeks ago um and lucy who's sort of just come on board to help us uh sort of with the sort of marketing side on on trove i was right i think i just need you to just tell me you know be like in two weeks time i'm booking you in and i'm I'll just ask you some questions. And I just need to talk to me. Just shooting some video and you just, right? Okay. Exactly. And just be like, that's what you're doing. And then I'll do it. But I think when it's not something that you love, there's always something else to prioritize or something else more important that needs dealing with.

47:55So it's just not something I've really done much at all of on the trade side, which is probably a missed opportunity. So yeah, so I've asked her to let me know when I'm needed. Well, it's interesting that you say that about Wow House And that is a whole other reason to participate in something like that is that you do have to do all this press, right? And then, of course, all these people showed up filming you in that, not just the crazy people with the dog running through your room, but the people who wanted to actually interview on camera. And there was a lot of video content. The Chelsea Harbor, and we should explain for people that aren't familiar with, with Wow House, maybe you want to explain what it, what it is and the, and the great space that you did with, with Romo and that whole, whole process so that people can, can understand.

48:44Yeah. So it's at our design center. So it's Chelsea Harbor Design Center and they have like a big kind of atrium, which once a year they build, you know, a house, a little house, actually really quite a big house. Yes. and it goes you know from one room to another room to another room and each year you have sort of sometimes designers do it on their own you know potentially if they have their own collection or something like that sometimes it's a sort of supplier that's sponsoring a designer to design their space you know using all of their products plus you know others where needed so for us it was sort of the latter so um um and the black edition um asked us very kindly to design their space they'd sort of been thinking about doing it for a few years and hadn't sort of quite decided um and yeah they sort of finally decided to do it towards the end of last year so it all sort of happened quite quickly yeah it worked really well and it was it was good fun um it was It reminded me of my old theater days, the madness, the four-day installation.

50:02It's just crazy. Hopefully you got some incredible images of it. And as we just said, it helped you with your media training and your on-camera appearances. So it's helpful from that perspective. I want to wrap up just asking you about something that we were discussing recently. There was a report that came out from an institute here in America called the IIDA, and it was a sort of a future readiness report. And they were sort of looking at the design industry and wondering, you know, is the design industry ready for the future in many areas? And guess what? Newsflash, we're not ready. Okay. So that was a big takeaway from the report.

50:44We are in no way ready. But one of the things that it talked about was, are we ready to say definitively that interior design, that great design can alter how our clients feel? And can we really say that, listen, part of the service that I, as an interior decorator designer, am providing to you is that I'm actually going to make you feel better in your home. Your home's not just going to be beautiful. Your home's not just going to be comfortable. but also i'm going to maybe i'm going to lower your blood pressure or i'm going to slow your pulse down a little bit or maybe i'm going to cause your pulse to race because you're going to walk into a space and you're gonna be so elated excited right i think yeah a hundred percent i mean i think that really is uh you know in a nutshell what we should be trying to achieve and aiming towards and i think that i think that you can tell and clients can tell you know i think some people it's a slower burn but we've had some of the most amazing you know really emotional responses from our clients which go past thank you this is a really pretty looking house to live in and you can see them walking around you know if we get to do the sort of grand reveal you know sometimes if we manage to convince people to stay away long enough so we can really sort of give them the grand reveal at the end then you know it's always kind of you can see them taking on board that this is not just a lovely house to live in this is a real change in lifestyle and i think part of that is because it's been designed with them and their family in mind so it's going to work perfectly for them but i think it's also you know from a practical level you know how many people you know all those questions that we ask what do we need to store how many people do you have around if you're having a dinner party you know how many of how do you want to sit and watch a movie you don't watch a movie you know what the musical instruments so the kids play let's make sure that there is good places for those around the house so I think um you know I think answering those questions is a massive thing and then I think also you know on a I suppose slightly more spiritual level is I just think to have a house that really feels as though it reflects who you are and says something about you and has a bit of soul to it is really special um and you know having pieces that have sort of some history to them and some meaning and a story behind them.

53:08I think that absolutely does change the way you feel at home to be living somewhere that was, you know, crafted completely with you in mind. Yeah, I think that it's something that we often undersell when we talk about what you what you get from the whole experience. And part of the whole value equation of hiring a designer is I think they're not just going to transform your home, they're really going to transform your life because you're going to feel so... And I love this notion and so many designers say to me, oh, I want your home to feel even better than vacation. I want you to long, right, to get to your home the way you have a fantasy of some beach vacation that feels so wonderful.

53:54I want your home to feel like that. And I love that notion. My home in no way feels like a beach vacation, by the way, but it is a place I long to return to whenever I'm away because I'm not a beach vacation kind of guy. So I don't want it to feel that way. But I feel like that's something that I think we undersell with what the whole design process can do. I actually think intrinsically, as I don't think most designers, maybe some, but I don't think most designers are, we're not particularly good salespeople a lot of times.

54:24Fred Nicolaus:time, myself included. But I do often think that I think I could do a better job of sort of explaining what the end goal is, something you live with for years after the project's finished, what the intent is. I think it's such a great opportunity for the whole industry. And I think that we, to your point about being a salesperson, I think we have to come up with a different way of describing it because I think we've put this negative association with being a salesperson or selling someone. Recently, I was interviewing somebody and I was talking about educating them. And he said, no, no, no, I don't want to be educating anybody because I don't want to imply that I know more than you do.

55:02He's like, I want them to experience the product and then they will become educated, but I will not be educating them. And I thought, okay, so not educating, not educating and not selling, but we have to find a way of, because I just feel like That's such a huge part of it. And we're so used to, here, picture, picture, portfolio, portfolio, here, tell me how much you love my work. And I get that. And I honestly think it's another thing that maybe this is something we need to learn in school about just selling. Because I think, honestly, everybody needs to sell, no matter what their job is, no matter what they do.

55:42You have to be good at selling because you're constantly trying to convince somebody of something yeah one way or another quietly or loudly yeah exactly yeah so it is a it is something that we need to focus on anyway i am so delighted to get to talk with with you and i i hope people will discover trove and your and your work and and you and i'm i'm glad that wow house went so terribly well so congratulations on that and uh and thanks for making the time to talk with me thanks it's been such a pleasure it's been really fun i've listened to lots of these so it's lovely to be on. Thank you.

56:22And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Trevor caught your eye.

56:30Fred Nicolaus:Well, we already talked about snow rooms. It's hard to think about anything else other than snow rooms. It's hard to top it. Once that's on the top of your mind. But I saw a really cool collaboration actually a couple of weeks ago, which I'm meaning to talk about, which is, I don't know if you remember, but several months ago, we might have mentioned Hancock Shaker Village, which is like a preserved shaker community here in, I believe it's in upstate New York, maybe Connecticut, but I've always felt that it's kind of like a low-key cool design destination because the houses are painted in these beautiful colors.

56:57Fred Nicolaus:There's all these amazing patterns and cool furniture there. And lo and behold, Block Shop, a very cool LA-based company, has done a collaboration with Hancock Shaker Village where they produce some textiles with shaker patterns and some art. I thought that was just such a funny, unexpected collab and it really caught my eye, I really like that one. I don't know if you checked that one out, but I think it's a fun team-up. Makes me want to go to the Shaker Village. That's how I feel. Go there during the spring when the baby animals are there. You get design and baby animals. Love it. It's perfect.

57:29Fred Nicolaus:We'll cut your head this week, Dennis. You had me at baby animals. The fifth anniversary issue of Frederick arrived just before we came on the air. And hard to believe it's been five years since Dara Caponegro and her incredible team launched the magazine. I remember originally it was a promotional piece, sort of newspaper style, that they created for a collab with Miles Redd back in the day. And everybody said, oh, this should be a magazine. And sure enough, who better than Dara Caponegro to turn it into what has become one of the magazines that people most often refer to in our industry? And at a time where we talk about the struggles of print, it is fun to see Frederick looking as big and as strong as it is.

58:17Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, I always love when it shows up on my front door. A lot of good projects in it. And it's got a good name. What can I say? Indeed. Indeed. Named after you, I'm sure. Yes, exactly. But congratulations to Timor and to Dara and the whole team there. Well done. And hopefully we'll have Timor and Dara back on the show at some point in the future. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

58:54This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.

59:08Thank you.