The Thursday Show: Has Google Lens ruined vintage shopping? Plus: Julio Torres collabs with Sabai

24:29And so, I mean, it's, and again, you know, it's one of these things where what an amazing tool and the fact that this even exists and with the ease that it does. And so on the one hand, you don't want to feel like, oh, isn't this incredible that we even have this and that we're complaining about it. But also it does sort of distort things. And as AI often does, it can come across as an expert or with great certainty when really it doesn't actually have that knowledge. Yeah, it's funny. I was talking with this designer, Jenny Brown. I had a great conversation with her about vintage. And she was saying like, yeah, I mean, it is annoying sometimes.

25:08But imagine, you know, people of the past listening to us complain about, you know, oh, we have this magical machine in our pocket that we point in antique. You know what it is. It sucks. Like, she had a very delightful, you know, optimistic perspective on it all. And I think that is, at the end of the day, it gets people interested in antiques and vintage. And I think that's what everyone likes about it. But it's just funny to see because, you know, the whole Internet is premised on this idea of more information is good and it will make the market totally rational. And I think at the end of the day, it just it ends up creating its own kinds of distortions, you know, whether you're selling antiques in Ohio or whether you're running First Dibs.

25:41I mean, I talked to somebody from First Dibs who was saying like, hey, look, I know our listed prices are high, but people negotiate. That's what this is all about, you know. So it's it's just funny to see, you know, the way it's changing things, but not not really changing things. It is a reminder that even if all these websites and all these different services show a price, that is the starting point of the conversation. And we mustn't lose sight of that. Coming up next, we're going to talk about English country homes, Fred. Yes, finally. For the Wall Street Journal last week, Ruth Bloomfield wrote about falling home prices and excess inventory in the market for rural English estates.

26:21Hmm. Giving you any ideas, Dennis? sell the house in Bronxfield and move out to the Cotswolds? Well, the Cotswolds have a lot to recommend them and a lot of good folks have moved out there recently. And now the prices are coming down, I don't know. Maybe we chip in, Fred? Could we do a share? Can you imagine that? Well, I wouldn't mind podcasting from the Cotswolds if anyone wants to maybe front some of the money for an estate, I'd be down. But yeah, I mean, I think this is driven kind of by an overall depressed real estate market in England. There's all these stats about how the average sale price is going down.

27:02There's a bunch of different reasons for it. Some of it actually is related to these taxes we've talked about recently. There's a new 40 % inheritance tax on UK residents' worldwide assets. And not to get too into the weeds, but there was this non-DOM tax system, which gave tax breaks to international residents in the UK, which is going away. So there's sort of this sense of, you know, the tide has turned a little bit on the affluent in England and you're sort of seeing that reflected in home prices there. I mean, you know, maybe this is a tiny violin situation, but it is too bad. And as our resident English or England correspondent, what was your read on this when you were out in London for Wow House?

27:39Interestingly enough, housing was on the tip of a lot of people's tongue because they have had a much softer housing market in general. And funny enough, many Americans have been coming over and taking advantage of that fact. And Americans right now aren't necessarily the most popular people over in the UK. Present company accepted, of course. Well, exactly. But it is interesting that they, as you pointed out, the non-DOM situation is very meaningful. And a lot of people said, if you take away that special tax status for non-residents that are living there, it will change the real estate market quite a bit.

28:19And of course, it has. And Brexit or pulling out of Brexit hasn't helped either. And so the UK market is facing a lot of challenges right now, and the design community is feeling the effects of it because much like we're dealing with here, the housing market has softened. It's not frozen the way we are here in the US, but it is definitely a different landscape. And they have a very different sort of mortgage and interest rate structure than we do have here as well. So that's another component in all of this. they don't have 30 year locking your mortgage rates over there. So it's another factor.

28:59Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I feel like this news or this development is coming at a, I don't know, a pivotal time, but an interesting time. I feel like the English design world has been creeping over here more. It's been getting more and more popular. I feel like whenever you speak to an English designer, there's this sense of, well, you in America have hired designers forever. We're just figuring out how to do that. We're like just getting our industry set up. And I feel like it's kind of too bad that this is coming at a time where their industry is really growing. But I mean, to look on the bright side, maybe this will mean more Americans go over there and buy up Cotswold Estates.

29:30And, you know, those will be the new desirable client. Maybe English clients will get tired of their real estate market and come over here. I mean, I know ours is frozen, but we do have 25 million millionaires or whatever it is. So there's definitely clients over here for the English designer. So maybe this will be the spark for a big cross-cultural exchange. And, you know, again, if anyone wants to, you know, loan us a few million to get a Cotswold podcast studio. I'm all for this news. Well, interestingly, going back to the antiques conversation, I was having dinner with an antiques dealer, Guy Tobin, who was trying to convince me that now is the time actually to become an antiques dealer because there are so many great deals on English antiques and it's all that brown furniture is readily available.

30:10And maybe I need a showroom in the Cotswolds to show it off. I don't know. I mean, it could all come together. Who's to say? But I do think you're right that I think the soft housing market, yet another reason why the British designers want to come over to America and take advantage of the fact that so many Americans love that English look and feel. So I hope it will lead to that. But it's an interesting story. All right. That's it for the news. but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including High Point by Design's collaboration with local school teachers and how the home category could help save coals.

30:47But first, a quick break.

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32:19And we're back. I'm joined now by Julio Torres and Pantilla. And Pantilla, you're going to help me out with your last name, all right? It is Pateraprisit. Right, there you go. Sure, I would have gotten that after a few tries, I feel certain. But thank you so much, both of you, for being here, and I'm excited to speak with you. Julio, I should start by saying I'm a little self-conscious going into this because I've heard you speak pretty savagely about Navy Blue and about people who sort of need to fit in in society, and Navy Blue is kind of a cry for help, and here I am wearing a Navy jacket, so already I'm a little self-conscious.

32:55I would say that speaks positively of you that you stuck to your guns. Well, I was thoughtful about it, and I was highly amused by the color conversations that you have had in general. And I want to explain for our listeners exactly who both of you are. And Julio, I'm going to start with you because some people might know you and hopefully be big fans. And if they haven't seen the papyrus sketch on SNL, they're listening now to the gentleman who wrote it. But Julio also does stand-up and has movies to his credit and a whole array of things. Tell us in your own words, Julio, about your background.

33:36And we'll talk about how comedy led to color and led to opinions on a great many things in the home world. Yeah, I began doing stand-up comedy as a way of finding a way into writing film and television, which was my goal. And then that led me actually into writing television. I worked at Saturday Night Live. And then I wrote a show on HBO. And then I had a comedy special called My Favorite Shapes, which I think attracted some interest from not necessarily the design world, but people who are into design. and having a furniture collection was something that I, I wouldn't say having a collection is something that I was interested in, but definitely like making furniture that people could have.

34:34And I was introduced to Sabai and I was very excited. Well, and how, Pantela, how did the introduction come about? How did you first meet Julio? I had previously already been a fan of Julio's and the introduction came about, I was talking to someone at a talent agency, at Julio's talent agency actually, and about wanting to collaborate with someone on a collection and they put Julio's name out as someone who, I think Julio on his end had also been putting it out into the universe. And so the agents did what the agents do and put us in contact. And I was really excited, obviously, once hearing that suggestion because I had already been a fan.

35:19Pantella, we should talk about Sabai and what it's all about, how it got started. And you took a bit of a detour in your own career. And I want to hear about that. Yeah, I definitely did not think I was going to end up in furniture or had an initial intention to. When I was starting my career, I worked in very much more traditional industries for very short. I worked in finance for a year and then I was in law school when I started Sabai. And so, did you know that, Julio? Did you know she was at NYU getting a law degree? I did not know she had a law degree, but I know her to be a very smart businesswoman.

36:01She's a smarty question, right? Yeah. So, okay. So you're, so yeah, you're doing, you're working in the financial world and you're getting the law degree and then, and then what, what happens? And then I tried to buy furniture and it was so hard and frustrating and, you know, all the things that we all experience. It was my first time, you know, being a young adult in the real world, trying to, to furnish an apartment. And I come from a very entrepreneurial family. So I think that was in my blood already in terms of how I went through the world of always thinking about solutions to different things.

36:42And then was also very impacted by my upbringing and my mom who works in ecotourism. And I grew up going to lodges that employed or worked with local hill tribe villages. And so always thought about business in the context of the intersection between, you know, business and also sustainability, the planet and communities as well. And so I think when I came to thinking about furniture and the industry and how that experience could be better, I also started looking into the impact the industry has on the planet and the people within its supply chain. And for Sabai, you know, sustainability is obviously such a buzzword and also a very vague word at the same time.

37:27And so we try to consider our impact at every stage. And so whether that's the materials we use, how we make them, and then also designing for longevity, whether that's, you know, durability and being, um, getting that tested to make sure that is durable, but then also having a repair program where someone can buy, you know, a component part or a replacement cushion, a cover so that if something happens, cause life happens, they can extend the life of that without just sending it to a landfill because I don't know the last person who I've encountered that's gotten something reupholstered well we don't we don't make that as easy exactly in this country right as it as it seems to be another other exactly yeah here it's such a luxury to get something reupholstered whereas where I'm come from it's it's an errand it's uh and yeah like our parents generation I feel like you know have have that couch that has been in the house forever exactly Whereas like we, I think, the sort of like millennials, I guess, we've been trained to expect that nothing lasts and everything is so disposable.

38:35And especially living in a city, like you buy a couch and then you move, you put it on the sidewalk. Well, so I'm curious, Pantilla. So the furniture industry, as I'm sure you quickly discovered, crowded industry, highly competitive, and it hasn't been a particularly easy time to be in the furniture industry for the past few years. Housing turnover is very low. Interest rates suddenly got high, right? And I don't need to tell you any of this. Tell me how it's been trying to sort of navigate all of that. And did many, including your own family, perhaps try and talk you out of this notion? And when you said you were walking away from the law, how did people respond to all of that?

39:21Yeah, I mean, I'm very close to my family. And like I said, my family is very entrepreneurial. So actually, I think they have the opposite response in the beginning. You know, when I was working in finance and the law, I think it was more of the joke of why are you being so weird in corporate? Like, oh, really? Okay. And so I think starting something was much more familiar to them. I think the furniture industry, I didn't think it through that much, to be honest. And I think that if I had thought about it more carefully, maybe I would have done something different because it is a very challenging industry.

39:59And like, you know, sofas and seating, they're probably some of the biggest products you could decide to sell. And so developing them, figuring out how to ship them, all those different things. I think I went into the starting Sabai with a lot of naivete and just a lot of unknowns that ultimately I think did help me. I think that's an asset a lot of the times. But I think looking back, I'm like, wow, there have been a lot of challenges that we've had to overcome. And like you said, that's not even taking into account the last five, six years of the roller coaster of COVID to the last few years.

40:37And so I'm grateful for the lack of knowledge I had, I would say. Had she known better, Julio, she never, never would have gotten into this. No regrets. How long ago did you start the company? We launched in July of 2019. So right before COVID. And Julio, I'm so glad to learn of the experience that you had early on with furniture and design. So as you were saying earlier, not that necessarily designing a whole collection was a notion of yours, but it sounds like you were really interested in furniture design and wanted to explore it. Yeah, it's always been a hobby because my mom always designed a lot of the pieces in our home.

41:23And then when I made New York a home, we would design things together. And then I made friends who make things and design things. So design was always a shared love language. I'm the completely opposite in that I do not have one business bone in my body. I also agree that ignorance can be bliss because you're not weighed down by not being able to see something all the way through when you begin, I think, is better. Tell us a little bit about the collection that you came up with. With All Other Passports is the name of the collection. And tell us about what that means and how you thought about what you wanted to create.

42:13A lot of ideas came back and forth. But a sort of anchor image that really grounded us was this sculpture at Terminal 4 in JFK. The Arrivals. which is a it's like a big plaster sculpture of billowing curtains and I think that we had similar core memories of arriving to New York and having the hallways of customs be so embedded in our in our minds I think you know when you're in a certain emotional state the environment that you're experiencing in becomes very memorable and so i i wonder if the excitement the nerves the the fear of you know coming from elsewhere into new york just charged the otherwise unremarkable hallways of jfk with so much meaning and uh and i thought about those billion curtains a lot and then we were when we're talking about making a screen that felt like a nice homage to it and then it just sort of evolved into this idea of the concept being you were once you were once a visitor with needing a place to crash now you get to welcome the visitor so it's a a sort of celebration of that feeling of getting to new york and to always sort of extend an invitation to others to think ahead and think of like the new people that are coming and uh and the importance of of making it easier for others than it than it was for you and And this sounds like so grandiose for, you know, a bespoke furniture line.

44:17But I do think that small things like offering a couch for someone to stay can be seismic in somebody else's experience. And that is my ideal scenario for that daybed to be used. is some broke person can't pay for an Airbnb in New York or whatever. But perhaps you, the listener, are in a position to buy a nice couch and offer someone a place to stay. I love that. So, Pantella, back to you taking on a great many challenges with this business of yours. As we were just talking about before we came on air, another challenge that you put on yourself was deciding to be a B Corp, which is no small feat.

45:08And we should remind listeners what that means and all that you had to do to make that possible. So tell us about that and what put the idea in your head. B Corp is essentially a nonprofit network run by B Lab. And so they certify for-profit businesses to essentially verify and you go through a process to make sure that you meet their standards for social and environmental accountability and transparency, essentially. And so making sure that you're considering the impact of everyone from your employees, your customers, your community, and then also the environment. And I felt like it was very aligned with our initial mission to begin with, you know, in terms of our vendors, our supply chain, our practices, it's something that we built the business around to begin with.

46:08And so, you know, we sourced our own materials for a lot of our products because we wanted to utilize the natural or non-toxic version of them. And we work with small family-owned factories in in North Carolina and Tennessee. And so we know we have very close relationships with the vendors that we do work with. I feel like film and TV should get their equivalent. Yeah, I bet they're eager to get right on that. They are lining up. Yeah. I would love some sort of entity that combs through people that you're thinking of partnering with and to see where their money comes from. I just want to see how close I am to weapons manufacturers at any given time.

46:57How many degrees of separation is a company from that? This just in, I think you're pretty darn close in the entertainment industry these days. I don't think it's six degrees of separation. Yeah, in every industry. Maybe not couches made in Tennessee just yet. Yeah, I like the leading by example thing of like, you may not be able to control every company in the world, but you can't control yours and the people that you are directly shaking hands with. Interestingly, it also brings to mind, I mean, so the issue of sustainability, which is a core tenant in all of this, sustainability also has an additional meaning of can the business sustain itself?

47:43and the question of whether enough people were responding to the meaning behind being a B Corp by raising these issues, whether enough people would say, oh, well, if I had a choice, I'd much rather buy a sofa from this company, right, because of these values that they've articulated. And for a hot minute, we thought that was a strategy that was going to pay off. But now I get the sense from many who are in a similar situation that that message doesn't resonate in as meaningful a way. But you tell me, Pantela, what your experience has been. Yeah, I mean, I think that people do care, but people have other priorities as well.

48:30And I think as a company, you kind of have to hit all the notes in terms of price point, design, all these different things. But then also as cost of living increases, people also have less budget to stretch to do things like spend a little bit more on a product that might be good for the environment. And so I think you can only expect so much of people when they're also in a position where they have other things to think about or other people to care for. I think the other part of it is that people also are self-interested. And so when... I have found that to be the case. Not a hot take. And so in terms of our strategy and how we think about marketing sustainability, essentially, is also thinking about it in terms of health and wellness.

49:25And that's something that people often are really willing to pay for. And so when you think about, and there is oftentimes a big overlap between the two. And I think when it comes to materials and material choices, choosing materials that are natural, free of forever chemicals, things like that, as we, you know, as the world starts to become more focused on the impact of toxins and plastics on our body, that's been something that we've seen a lot of people respond to a lot. Yeah. And there's a huge focus on longevity today and right. And so, I mean, the health issue is real and turns out, hey, that's also a component of what you're doing.

50:05So, right, you've eliminated the, you've made material choices that are very beneficial and yet still found a way to make that, I mean, in the case of much of your product, surprisingly affordable. Because I think many thought in order to make it a little bit healthier or a little bit more all natural, that it would often be more expensive. But you found a way around that, it seems. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie. We have a line that is 100 % natural, like completely natural materials that is more expensive. And so oftentimes it is more expensive. And then we have a line that does use more like traditional foam, but has forever chemical free fabrics.

50:46And so there's both giving people the option and trying to meet them where they are at. And also, like you said, the reality of like, sometimes it does cost more to use materials that are natural or healthier for you. And so, you know, they'd say that's why we have collections that span across a few different price points is having, you know, entry level price point line to a more expensive line that's completely natural. And so it's definitely a balance. I would love to be able to offer the 100 % natural one at a much lower price point. And part of it's also just the volume of those materials.

51:26Right now, they aren't the predominant materials being used. And so when it comes to economies of scale, I think as more people adopt these materials, hopefully the cost of utilizing them also goes down. But as of now, we've made them as affordable as we can. And through this collaboration, I'm curious, Julio, I mean, thinking about future endeavors for you, does this make you want to do more furniture collaborations and design more pieces? Has this been a fun and enjoyable process for you? And does it make you want to do more? With this level of involvement, yes. Don't hand me the QuickBooks.

52:09Right. Right. Right. He doesn't want to run the business. No. No. He wants to be on the idea side. I want to send little sketches for sure. Yeah. Well, and Pantela, for you, when you think about, because all joking aside, you got to sell furniture. So, I mean, this seems like a really fun collaboration. But wake up. But also, I mean, can I bring - But wake up, honey. Well, thank you. Thank you, Julio. Yeah. All right. Exactly. How do you follow this? I mean, talk about a tough act to follow, right? So what do you, what do you do now? No, seriously. It is a great question, Dennis. I mean, yeah, I, you know, we're, seeding has been where we've really developed a lot in the last few years and it's been really fun.

53:04We're definitely, you know, planning on expanding into other product categories. stories working with julio has been so fun i think that was also like a selfish collaboration in a lot of ways because i really wanted to work with julio but i think we get it yeah but i think it also you know helped us explore new materials that we didn't work with before and um also showcases the range of things that we can do and so i think that you know you aren't pushed to do those things until you're pushed to and now we we see that we can work with you know metal and stainless steel and, you know, CNC cut plywood.

53:42It's a lot of exciting new developments. And I think that there are a lot of more avenues that we can go into now. I mean, collaborations are really fun, you know, bringing someone else's ideas to life and working together to develop that has been a really amazing experience. And so I would definitely love to do more of that. And then, And yeah, in terms of other product categories for Sabai, we are expanding. We're going into beds later this year. So that's, yeah, I know. I'll send you, Julio. I'm curious to see what you think. Oh, my God. Yeah, because that's the other, like, when someone's moving, when someone is moving, that is the big thing, right?

54:23It's like a bed and a couch. Exactly. I sense an opportunity here. I don't know. I mean. Oh, my God. Right? Yeah, I see the wheels spinning. Well, I'm excited to see where all of this goes. It sounds like already more ideas are being considered. And I hope that we will see more of this fun collaboration because it's just fun to see notions of everyday pieces challenged in this way and sort of reimagined. And so I thank you both for doing that. And I also thank you both for making the time to talk with me about it. A pleasure. Thank you so much.

55:03And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Inflation caught my eye. The number just came out, the latest print, and it's quite high, 4.2%. Now, this was maybe predicted because, of course, the war in Iran is sending up fuel prices, which is largely driving this, but that's not the number that people wanted to see, because, of course, this means it'll be less likely that the Federal Reserve will cut rates, which means mortgages will stay high, which means the housing market will be frozen until the end of time.

55:36But yeah, maybe not a surprise, but certainly it's the highest number in three years. So, you know, take note. Yeah, to be sure. We talk about inflation a lot on this show, and it's staggering. Yet again, how we're just sort of becoming complacent about that, too. Oh, it's just an over 4 % inflation number when the Fed target is two. Yeah, only double. Yeah, what cut you had this week, Dennis? Well, it looks like there's another player in the design consultation business, and this one makes a lot of sense to me. recent guests on the show, Homeworthy. They have rolled out. They've got a few designers that they're offering consultation services with.

56:21You can book time. And I think this is a perfectly natural extension of their amazingly fast-growing YouTube business. If you love this designer's aesthetic, if you love this person's personality and look, why not book some time with them? I get it. What do you think, Fred? I mean, it makes a ton of sense. I mean, AD was doing it. Like, if you're in the business of making designers look good, you should get in on this because I think it's a natural extension. And I think that, as we've talked about, YouTube is the future. This podcast, I'm sure we'll be on YouTube in the very near future. And we can do design consultations and make zero dollars.

56:59I think this is going to open so many opportunities for us, Fred. I can't wait. YouTube, here we come. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaos and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.