The Thursday Show: Helene hits North Carolina and dockworkers strike. Plus: Nasozi Kakembo's African decor edit

0:07This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on, I'll be speaking to designer Nassosi Kakembo about her new book, The African Decor Edit. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including this week's port strike, why Zillow is highlighting climate risks, and Hurricane Helene's impact on the design community. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor, Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred. Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great. How you doing? Doing good. October's here. Are you getting ready? ready with your Halloween costume, your design-themed Halloween costume, I hope?

0:43I think you'll be going out trick-or-treating much more likely than me, right? Yes, with two young kids, it's sadly unavoidable. I just remember last year there was an interior designer who went as a coastal grandma to a Halloween party and I'm trying to think of a way to top that with another micro-trend-themed costume. Listeners, please send in suggestions. Let's look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with Peter Salek, the CEO of Waterworks, very in-depth. This one went a little bit long, but there was so much. Well, I mean, it was a lot of great insight, advice. It was a really meaty conversation.

1:17It was a meaty conversation. And, you know, here we put poor Peter Salek under so much pressure after we heard Gary Friedman say he wants to turn Waterworks into a billion dollar brand. We said, Peter, you got to come on the show and tell us all about that. How's that feeling for you? And you know what? He did. And credit to him. And it was actually, it was an interesting and engaging conversation. And we actually got into quite a few issues that I spent a lot of time thinking about, especially the issue of how do we get more people working with interior designers? I think that's exactly right.

1:50That was what really jumped out to me too. We get so caught up in our conversations that are inside the design industry, this flat pricing, hourly pricing, what about this website? And you kind of forget that one of the biggest problems the industry has. It's just that not enough consumers who can afford a designer are hiring a designer, and people don't know what the best brands are. And that, in some ways, is really just a big, big problem that we don't talk about enough. So it was good to hear Peter talk about that. Among other things, I love this sort of advice from Gary Friedman with these sort of very sage Yoda-like questions that were sort of like, what would you do differently?

2:27And it changed everything. But yeah, it was a good conversation on a lot of levels. Yeah, no, no, it was really enjoyable. There's a lot in there and I hope that people will enjoy the conversation. Another reminder of don't burn bridges with your old bosses because you might need to have them on your podcast one day. So good tip there. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then get into the news.

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4:44and we're back first up fred hurricane helene hits the design industry yes over the weekend helene tore through the southeast striking the western region of north carolina particularly hard especially in the counties surrounding ashville leaving the design community and frankly you know everyone there uh reeling it's been so heartbreaking to see you know the footage over the weekend on the news and on Instagram. But just the devastation is just shocking, frankly. I agree. Shocking, heartbreaking. And you discover very quickly how many people that we know in that area, people that we've spoken with, obviously East Fork, but many others that we've just come to know over the years.

5:23And it's so sad to see what has happened to that area. Yeah, completely. And I mean, you know, we should say just up at the top here, you know, obviously Helene is an an enormous natural disaster. It's killed over 150 people. They're predicting a higher mortality count than that. So this is really just a tragedy on another level. But of course, we're going to be talking about the design business stuff because that's what we do. And it, of course, did impact people in that area. You mentioned East Fork. They announced that they can't make pottery while they don't have water because power and water has been cut up to a lot of businesses.

6:00There were several furniture stores that were flooded and it seemed to entirely destroy their inventory. This is kind of a small thing, but House Beautiful's whole home project for 2024 was, I think, in Asheville. So there's a lot of design stuff in that part of the world, especially around Asheville. And it's just brutal for everyone there. It's really, you know, any possible way you could imagine it affecting people, it has. It's gut-wrenching to see and also to learn of how many people moved there during COVID, thinking it was such an idyllic place on so many levels. And far away, we thought from a nearby ocean, we didn't think flooding would be an issue.

6:38But clearly, it has been. And it's just heartbreaking to see people be so impacted. Yeah. I mean, Asheville has become this creative community that draws people from around the country. And I feel like everyone in our corner of the world knows someone who either moved there or is thinking of moving there. And it's It's definitely been shocking to see. We've said several times. One sort of interesting thing about this development is it mostly affected sort of the western part of North Carolina where the mountains are in the state. And a lot of the sort of furniture manufacturing hubs like in Hickory, for example, were not affected as badly.

7:15There were certainly, you know, some people lost power, cell service. There was some flooding there. But I talked to several people who have factories in that part of the state, and they all said, you know, their hearts really went out to the mountain towns. But I didn't hear that much disruption from the sort of big furniture manufacturing hubs. You know, it's not a silver lining. It's still a horrible tragedy. But, you know, at the very least, it didn't seem to impact those particular businesses. I don't know if you heard the same from people you know, Dennis. Yeah. No, I mean, it's very nearby to so many people and places that produce, but I didn't hear from a lot of people that they were going to be directly impacted.

7:51It's much more of an emotional jolt and, as you say, such a creative community. I know that the High Point Market Authority has directed people to donate to the Red Cross of North Carolina, and people can certainly look on social media to see lots of other local charities that people are pointing out. And the messaging coming out of East Fork was both poignant, and luckily it sounds like Connie is good at making a campfire dinner, but they're definitely trying to let people know all the many things that they can do to help out in the community. And I've seen a lot of local people just start to try and get more supplies there and things that people need on the ground.

8:33Yeah, I don't think there's that much more to say about the story, except from, you know, shop from these businesses, donate to these local charities, you know, turn your attention on the issue because it is heartbreaking. And, you know, I'm sure that I'll come through it, but this is a particularly brutal time. So do what you can. And we'll include some notes, some links in the show notes. Absolutely. Moving on to the next piece of good news, Fred, a strike at the ports. Yes, this week, dock workers along the East and Gulf coasts went on strike over failed contract negotiations, stopping the flow of goods from nearly every port from Maine to Texas.

9:08If the walkout extends more than a few days, it could lead to a supply chain snarl and major economic fallout. Yes. I mean, I think, you know, if there's a silver lining here, it's that everybody is used to this at this point. I was just talking to an importer who was saying, like, if you weren't seeing this coming, you didn't have a strategy, then you weren't like awake during COVID. because it's been nothing but supply chain chaos for the past five years. So or four years, I should say. I mean, yeah, you know, this is a you know, this is a classic strike over a contract negotiation. The East Coast and the Gulf Coast dock workers are all part of the same labor union.

9:40And they're, you know, having it out with the ports over both wages and automation of equipment on the on the docks. And, you know, obviously, these workers have a lot of leverage because simply they are the ones who keep goods coming in and out of the port system. And so, you know, I can't really weigh on on the reasonability of what they're asking for or what the contract looks like from that perspective. But certainly, you know, when they walk, things don't move in and out. So, you know, this will absolutely have an impact on the economy. The question is whether it will have an impact on designers and the furniture industry.

10:12What are you what are you hearing out there? Well, I mean, I think to your point, many companies sound as though they were anticipating this, making some other moves, redirecting some things to the West Coast, to be sure. Although I did speak with a couple of different companies who said they are definitely going to be impacted. One in particular said there's a good 80 or 90 containers that they were hoping to have that they won't have. And it looks like, and we don't know how long this is going to drag on, but it's certainly going to delay the arrival of some of these things. So it's definitely going to have an impact if it lasts.

10:48And it's certainly going to have even more of an impact, it looks like, in the grocery store and some of the places where fresh food coming in might perish while the strike workers are negotiating. Yeah, if this was business of bananas, we'd be having a very different conversation about this. because, of course, you know, I mean, furniture, if it sits in a port, you know, in a container for like months and months on end, yeah, it can go bad. That certainly has been known to happen. But, you know, it's not like, you know, an egg that goes bad in a couple of days sitting on a ship. So this is obviously big news.

11:23I will say, though, that like, as you pointed out, several people I spoke to said that they'd, you know, they'd seen it coming. They'd stocked up. The big question here is how long this goes on for. And, you know, in that, I don't really have that much insight. I know you were looking closely at what the stock workers were asking for, and you were saying it's not as much about wages. It's about automation, which is really interesting. Well, exactly. And I think one of the things that the dock workers are very nervous about is there is an increasing amount of automation being used in the unloading process.

11:55And when we compare the United States to many big ports in Europe and particularly in Asia, there is far more automation being used in this process than in the United States. And so I think for many workers, and you see many of the signs that they're carrying, it's automation's got to go and heck no to automation because they're very concerned that the real longer term impact on this, they might get an increased salary over the next few years. But the real issue sounds like ultimately jobs are going to be going away as automation replaces the need for a lot of what the longshoremen do. And that's the bigger, longer term issue that I think everyone is rightly concerned about.

12:42And I feel like the overarching message of this show is very much the big changes that are coming in many different areas, climate being one of them. And interestingly, AI came up quite a lot because AI can help make a lot more of parts of the unloading and receiving process just more efficient. So robots, automation coming for you for the longshoremen. I think that actually is very real. And that's a longer term issue that they'll have to figure out how to negotiate around. And it calls my mind back to the writer's strike and some of the other strikes that we've seen where they were worried about how technology might play a big role.

13:23Yes, this is the bummer episode. Once again. This is the future comes at you fast episode. Yeah, I mean, the writers, it's interesting you should make that comparison. I mean, I would say that, you know, the interesting distinction there is that the film and media business has been, you know, in the tank for the past couple of years. And so I think to some degree, like, you know, the shipping companies are doing having record profits. And so the dock workers are striking at a time when they actually they have a very clear leverage, which is that stuff doesn't come in if they don't work. And the people they're striking against have a lot of money and have been making a lot of money.

13:55So normally the line of thinking is you can't fight technology. You can't fight automation. There's nothing they can do about this. It's coming, accept it, move on. But they do have a lot of leverage right now. So it's possible they can certainly delay it. I guess then the question becomes how long and how much. But it certainly is a very relevant consideration here. No, absolutely. It's central to it. And you make such a good point about reminding people about the massive profits that the shipping companies have been making. And many of them increased their pricing during the Red Sea shipping issues that we talked about here on the show.

14:29Which are still ongoing, by the way. It's not like that's over. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. None of that has been has been resolved. And prices have gone up quite dramatically. And I don't mean to pick on big Danish shipping company Maersk. But but boy, they they're making a lot of money these days. And listen, the longshoreman referenced that. I love this long simmering feud you're trying to start with Maersk. This isn't the first time Dennis Scully has called out Maersk. I mean, I just want to end the conversation by saying simply that, like, look, it's not great for the economy because it slows everything down.

15:03I think there's all these statistics about every day it costs umpteen million dollars. So, you know, this is something we'll be watching. We'll talk about it next week and see where we're at. If this does stretch on, then, yeah, it's going to have an impact on projects right now. I don't think there's any particular reason to panic. But talk about it with your clients, because, you know, if you hear about it from a brand, at least you'll be prepared. No, absolutely. And as you say, we don't know how long it'll last. We'll see. I used to have a Scandinavian furniture store, Fred. So Maersk got some of my money in the past.

15:32So maybe it still hurts. Maybe that's what it is. Anyway, up next, we're going to talk about Zillow's new feature, Fred. Yes. Zillow announced this week that it would begin including details about climate risks alongside its listings. and what more poignant of a week could we have picked to talk about this? Because obviously, you know, it's not just a climate risk, it's a climate consequence that we're seeing now with Helene in North Carolina. What did you think of this news? Such a sign of the times. And I think it's so interesting, the statistics that they cited about 80 % of buyers now considering climate risks when purchasing a home.

16:08And as you and I were talking about earlier, Anyone who has been on the fence about whether climate change is a real issue and an important consideration in thinking about where to live and what kind of home should you have. I think this is all very real and so interesting to me to see the different risks that Zillow, I gather, is going to try and point out. Yeah, they're going to talk about wildfires, flooding, extreme temperatures and poor air quality. And there's also part of the features that they'll recommend insurance for the region that you're in. And, you know, Americans are famously underinsured when it comes to their homes.

16:49Part of that is the problem that insurance companies, you know, it's increasingly expensive for insurance companies. So they don't always offer the right kind of insurance for where they're at or they pull out of a state altogether, like has happened in Florida and California. So, you know, they're going to try and Zillow is going to try and come at the problem from both ends here. But you make such a good point that it's a sign of the times. I feel like if this feature had rolled out even two or three years ago, I think people would be accusing it of being, oh, this is Zillow trying to be woke or something like that.

17:14But like, no, this is just facts on the ground. This is the reality for people who live in regions that are at risk for, you know, severe climate, severe weather. And I think that, you know, you don't need any greater proof of the fact that it's real than, you know, the events of the weekend. And I think the interesting thing, though, is that there is this persistent thing of people seeing these risks and choosing to build on the cliff overlooking the slowly advancing ocean. I wonder if that ever ends. If that, you know, the New York Times, I feel like, writes a story every year that's like, people are choosing to build on, you know, the beach in Nantucket.

17:46You know, is that ever going to go away? I'm curious. What do you think? Well, I agree. It's so fascinating. We've had this conversation with people and they say, oh, no, it's totally at risk. Absolutely. Because look at where it is. It's on a cliff. But also the view from that cliff is really spectacular. And for the next year, you're going to love the heck out of it. And then it's going to fall off the cliff and be gone. And some people, I mean, how many people did we learn buy the house and they're willing to waive the insurance because they don't have a mortgage? And so they're like, I'm going to take whatever risk I darn well want to.

18:18And that's fine. Meanwhile, I mean, to your point about insurance, we learned that the people of Asheville, less than 2 % of the population there had flood insurance, which is the case in so many areas around the country because flood insurance is just really expensive to have. And so people are underinsured and the insurance companies are – State Farm announced that probably a million policies in California will go away in the coming years because there are just too many places that are at risk for one reason or another. So it's a huge issue. And I and I wonder, to your point, those people that are all dug in about not caring about this issue.

18:59And again, forget the politics of it or how you feel about it. It's just undeniable the facts of what's happening. Whatever you want to pinpoint the cause to be, this Zillow story and the disaster with Helene is just a reminder that this is real and we have to start thinking about how we build around this and how we design around this and what this means. For a lot of people, I think their wealth just sort of insulates them from these problems because maybe the home on the cliff in Nantucket or whatever it is, is a second home and it's not as big of a deal for them. Or they can spend more on, you know, things to make it more resilient or perhaps, you know, simply, as you said, they don't have a mortgage or a cash buyer, so it's not as big of a deal for them.

19:40I do think it'll catch up, though. I mean, you know, the more of these things happen, I think the more it'll become part of people's psychology when they're thinking about where to live to think about the, you know, these risks. because when the risks turn into reality more often than not, you know, it becomes a stronger consideration. I think so many people have the attitude of it won't happen to me. I mean, everybody's guilty. I'm guilty of it. You always think, okay, well, this is going to happen somewhere else. But the more it happens everywhere, I think the more people will think about it.

20:06And I think designers are going to have to think about it too. You know, I don't think it's going to be the very first conversation you have with a client about designing their home. But if you live in a place that has extreme weather, it's important to think about the reality of it and what that means for pulling a person's home together. So I don't have all the answers here, but I do think this is just, as you said, a sign of the times. This is becoming part of the conversation and designers need to be equipped to have that conversation. I agree. And I would love to hear from designers about what conversations they're already having around this and how people are weighing this.

20:40Because interestingly, when so many designers have mentioned to us recently about people pulling back from new builds because of cost and timing. I would love to hear people who have just reconsidered moving forward with a project because of these climate issues. I can't imagine that's not happening. So I'd be very curious to see how that is impacting things. Moving on, we're going to talk about styling. So in this week's feature, BOH Managing Editor Haley Chouinard unpacked the art of interior styling, exploring how design professionals go to great lengths to pull together the perfect photo shoot.

21:19Fred, did you have fun with this one? We needed this, Dennis. We needed it. We've got a hurricane, a port strike, climate, and we need a fun photo shoot story. Well, I definitely enjoyed reading it, and it was fun to talk to Haley while she was reporting it, just because it's the classic problem of the camera guy's going to show up in three hours. We need like 100 books, and 50 crates of flowers. There's a lot of interesting, funny, last-minute stuff that goes into styling photo shoots. And I understand that you were hearing from some designers on your Instagram account about this as well. Well, it seems like a lot of people reach out for barnyard animals, Fred.

21:55They think that that's a good prop to bring in. There were some goats. Apparently, the goats ran a little bit over budget, and so they had to settle for baby goats in some cases. But Kate Reagan, who's a photo stylist, shared that they actually brought in a horse so they could have the horse stick its head in through a window and say hello during the photo shoot. She actually sent me some adorable footage of that. Kathleen Walsh brought in some cows for a shoot. And I remember Jenny Kane, when she was talking about the photo shoot that she did for her place up in Tivoli, she too apparently borrowed some barnyard animals to make it look more like home for her where she actually has about 30 or 40 barnyard animals.

22:37So I guess she wants it to look like that wherever she goes. But this needs to be a showroom at the D &D, sort of like only the most chic barnyard animals for your next. Get some straws and bales of hay and some of the showrooms. That'd be great. Yeah, I mean, it's a fun story. So that's, you know, I think that's one of the key takeaways here. But also one of the things that Haley got into, which I think is really interesting, which I don't think about that much, is how much like, you know, photo styling is ostensibly for the image that's going to get sent off to Veranda or whoever. But it often is almost like this last minute sales pitch for clients because I think so many designers experience this sort of budget fatigue that happens at the very end of the project.

23:15They spend so much money on the furnishings and then it comes time to put some things on the shelves and the coffee table and they're like, I can't write another check. Let's just move in. Of course, those details really make a project feel lived in and feel like what it is. And so, okay, you couldn't get the client to sign up on that. But what if you style it for a photo shoot? The client happens to walk in. They see how beautiful their home looks styled, maybe with a cow in there too, you know, maybe they start to write the check then. So it's interesting to see how it's kind of like styling can be sort of this thing that's ostensibly for the image, but also is really part of the sales process.

23:47Well, and I feel that so many designers have talked to us about often a client is on the fence about artwork. So let me just get some artwork and hang it. And let me just show you what it's going to look like. And you're going to love it. And we can always take it back if you don't. But I think that they do that also with some things that the client might not have said yes to in the original budget, right? And of course, you know, there's always all these great images on social media about whether it was the last minute run to Target or HomeGoods or all the places that people went to. In California, I think Peter Dunham, when we were talking to him, he talked about how people would often show up at Hollywood at home and want to clear out a whole bunch of merchandise to use for a photo shoot.