The Thursday Show: Highlights from Milan Design Week with Julie Lasky and Ghislaine Viñas. Plus: The latest on tariffs

24:40So I mean, in some ways that's worse, but I think in some ways, I think it makes it all the more clear that to get this result takes time and involves a lot of elbow grease. And I think a lot of people who get into trying to do the same DIY renovations that TikTok people do are going to realize how difficult it is, how much of a headache it is. And I do think it's just a different demographic than the person who's hiring an interior designer. I think it's just a very different kind of audience or a different kind of mentality. I think you can be obsessed with these videos and hire an interior designer.

25:10I don't think there's anything exclusionary about that. I also think that just like, look, even though these renovations are a little silly sometimes or they're a little gimmicky, they get people interested in their homes. They get people thinking about their homes as a venue for self-expression. So I think this explosion of content creators does create upside for interior designers down the line in one shape or form. Well, and I think it speaks to the opportunity, I think, is the expertise. And I think that all of the popularity around so many of these videos and all of this content speaks to, I think, in part, how eager people are to learn and to understand.

25:50And I think that that's part of the value of what designers can bring. And some of these renovations that you see on some of these channels, ooh, wow, would not want that renovation. And in some of the ways that we sort of joke about the McMansions, and part of what is often humorous about the McMansion phenomenon is that it's not additions to your house that you would actually want to make, and often they're not very well done, and the quality and the construction, all of that. So I mean, again, sometimes I look at this and think, ooh, designers can take comfort. in some of this. Yeah, I agree.

26:28And I also think that like, we've talked about this before, but I've seen so many more designers in my Instagram feed doing, you know, vertical video, sharing their expertise in a real way. So I think, you know, there's plenty of upside for everybody in this one way or the other. Moving on, Fred, if you thought that Fred couldn't write 6 ,000 words about a couple of TV shows, you were wrong because last week, Fred wrote about the White Lotus and Severance, which have kicked off major conversations in the design press in very different ways. And now we're going to get to find out what led Fred to write this article and what he's learned.

27:03So tell us, Fred. I mean, I think mainly if you can make watching TV part of your job, you should do that. I think that's kind of the unspoken motive here. But yeah, I mean, so there are two shows, I think, that are very much at the forefront of the sort of prestige TV conversation. One of them is Severance from Apple TV, and the other one is The White Lotus from HBO. And I just noticed how both of these shows were really talked about in design media. People who are interested in design would talk about both of these shows, but in just in wildly different ways. And I thought it'd be funny to sort of look at, you know, well, who are the Severance people and how are they talking about design?

27:38Who are the White Lotus people? How are they talking about design? And do a little compare contrast just to break it down a little bit. So Severance, you know, I'm not going to do spoilers here. Don't skip ahead. Severance here is this kind of interesting sci-fi show set in this sort of alternate world. I won't explain. It's a very very complicated premise, but a lot of the show happens in the offices of this company called Lumen Industries. And it's very kind of like minimalist and broken down, kind of a surreal company. And it's absolutely filled with like mid-century classic furniture. Like the guys from Rarify, who I think we've talked about a little bit, you know, supplied a lot of the furniture for it.

28:12So you have all these like pieces by Saarinen and Dieter Roms. And it's just this like became this obsession for people who are really interested in that kind of that side of the design industry to point out, oh, that's that Italian piece. Oh, that's that Danish piece from 1932. And, you know, meanwhile, the White Lotus, which takes place, is filmed at real Four Seasons locations, is this sort of opulent, you know, wonderful hotels and people get obsessed with, oh, look at that lampshade and look at that piece. And it became, you know, the conversation is like, get the look for less. And there's a lot of Jim Thompson fabric in the most recent season of the White Lotus.

28:46So you just had these two very different kind of conversations, one of them, which is obsessed with, you know, the history of design and these, you know, European designers and everything they did. And the other side was a little bit more about, you know, luxury and opulence and the way people live. And so it was just interesting to sort of look at those two separate, you know, modes of thought about design on TV. Well, and interesting to your point about the impact of the design and the sets And interesting to see collaborations coming out with CB2 for the White Lotus and other capsule collections with various brands.

29:22And I don't know what Severance has on the way. Yeah. Well, I mean, like White Lotus is funny because this season there was a million – there's like White Lotus Coffee Creamer. That was kind of insane. But yeah, there was a collection with CB2. And it's interesting because the White Lotus, I mean, the show is all about sort of satirizing, you know, affluent people and talking about how even all their money and their material wealth doesn't buy them happiness. And it's like, oh, but here's a collection of furniture for that. Something kind of ironic about that. But yeah, I mean, really what I was trying to get out with the piece is that there are these two wildly different sort of parts of the design industry.

29:58I don't know if you've ever, I feel like you and I have talked about this sort of split kind of, you know, here and there, maybe not on the podcast, but just in general about how there are these people who are, you know, they're obsessed, they go to Salone every year, and they're obsessed with, you know, industrial design, but they kind of don't think too much about interior design as much. And then you have the people who maybe have never been to Salone and are just thinking about, well, here's how the room comes together. But they're not as obsessed with finding out which German with interesting glasses designed this sofa.

30:26And it's just sort of an interesting split in the industry that has always sort of intrigued me. And I've always wanted to see those two sides of the fence play together a little bit more. Well, it's funny because – and you and I have talked about that. And so often I feel as if we're covering such a different side of the design world than Interior Design Magazine and other publications like that are covering, right? It is interesting how they're these two halves of the world. As you said, Interior Design Magazine, you open it up and it's very different names than might be showing at Kipps Bay, for example, even though everybody's kind of in the same sandbox, really.

31:00So I don't know. I'm just all for sort of breaking down that barrier. I think obscure Italian designers are interesting to learn about and understand. I think pulling it all together into a beautiful room is really important. And some people overlook the importance of that. So I just think people should be watching both of these shows. And that's my takeaway. Watch more TV. Well, there you go. All right. That's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including advice from Gail Doby on succession planning and a new initiative from Chicago design firm Park & Oak.

31:32We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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32:27See Jamie's brightest new ideas in the Chelsea House showroom at 200 North Hamilton Street, April 24th through the 30th. All available at designer-friendly prices with no minimums required.

32:43And we're back. I'm joined now by design journalist Julie Lasky, who is just back from Milan. Julie, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, Dennis. Well, I feel like you set the tone right before you left with your piece that you wrote for the New York Times in Milan, a celebration of design in uncertain times. Did the times feel uncertain while you were there? Were people a little bit on edge? Yes and no. It was really interesting. I mean, everybody wanted to talk about the tariffs, and everybody wanted to deny they were American, if in fact they were American.

33:24Is that right? Everyone distanced themselves? Absolutely. On the other hand, there was something unworldly about this experience, because everything that we could see in Milan has been in the pipeline for a year now, at least. So there was quite a robust design scene with tons of people and beautiful weather and all the trappings of what looked like a very healthy design scene. And yet there was this sort of Damocles hanging over everybody's head about what was going to be happening in the future. Well, and it seemed as if separate and apart from the tariffs, there was the feeling that China's economy hasn't really come back, right?

34:07And they've often been an important player in all of this. And some of the other European partners haven't been in the best shape either. Yes? Very true. Germany, France have been up until very recently, the biggest consumers of Italian furniture, and they have been falling off even before all of this political craziness. So there is definitely, at least in the numbers, that truth, but there are the numbers. And then there's the experience of Milan Design Week and of Salone, which is one of bubbling exuberance. and there is just no arguing with the feeling that comes from having crowds milling around you and it was just a feeling of business as usual but i do think that there were plenty of science that suggested that maybe things were a little bit more dire than they appeared well in in conversations that you had with people about tariffs and i'm i don't know if you admitted you were an American or not, Julie, you can tell me.

35:09But did people theorize about what they thought was going to come as a result of all of this? Were they making moves in anticipation? I mean, what was your sense? Well, first of all, there was no denying I was an American because I'm just really bad with accents. I was tempted, as usual, to pretend I was Canadian, but even then I wasn't sure. Oh, let me hear your Canadian accent. I'm not doing that. I know better than to do that. Okay, but sometimes you might pretend, but this time you didn't. And answer the second part of your question in terms of what people said they were going to do, how they were going to behave or react.

35:49Everybody is just in a wait and see game. So, you know, industries like, say, the aluminum and steel industry that have had tariffs imposed on them and have the potential of having major consequences in the design world weren't specifically mentioned. But there was, you know, I think maybe floating around the question of this, this really going to stick if Trump is going to back off on, you know, iPhones is possibly going to extend that to other industries as well. Yeah, no, no, it's very hard for anyone to really know where this all falls out. But you mentioned earlier that regardless of all the tariff conversation, there were these huge crowds.

36:30And additionally, it was spring was in full bloom, it sounds like. Very true. I mean, I've been going to the Milan Design Week for now more than 20 years. And I can tell you that a lot of one's impressions rise and fall on the weather and nobody admits it. But, you know, you've noticed that, you know, it's raining in Milan. People come back and go, it's kind of a drag this year. Stuff wasn't so creative, not so innovative. No, it was just that the skies were gray. And other years, I think there's just this boost that comes from that particularly gorgeous Melanie Spring, the sunshine, the wisteria, the Prosecco.

37:08So I think that it does lend itself to something that's festive. Were there some things that you felt really, really stood out this year? Oh, for sure. No, for sure. And as often is the case with Design Week, when you're surprised things can end up so much more. And I know that sounds so dumb and obvious, right? But I mean, when you stumble on stuff, it may not be quite as good as the stuff you know is going to be really excellent because you've seen pictures before you got there. But it comes with a certain sense of pizzazz. One of those examples of stumbling opportunities was an exhibition of Polish design called Romantic Brutalism.

37:46It was a look back to the Art Deco exhibition in Paris in 1925 and how it affected Polish design. but it showed both vintage design and contemporary and it mixed it all together. The really talented Federica Sala was the curator of that show but she used some really interesting young talents. I mean, I was speaking to the person who designed the show and I was so impressed with the way, not only the objects that were shown there but the way it was exhibited. And yet it all, so it wasn't something that you had seen images of before. So it was a surprise to you. Completely a surprise. For instance, there were these beautiful kilims that were currently being produced in Ukraine near the Polish border with patterns that looked like a kind of deconstructed peacock feathers with allusions back to Art Nouveau design.

38:38And the color palette that you would see back in the 20s and that turned from Art Nouveau to Art Deco. So beautiful, really beautiful and quite a revelation. Well, so were there other things like that that were a surprise to you and you were delighted? Absolutely. I mean, this is really terrible of me. There was an exhibition and I cannot remember the name of it. It's the first time I think in my life that I saw something that really impressed me. And I cannot tell you who did it. But it was an exhibition of hardware that was presented like jewelry. Now, we all talk about hardware on furniture and say, oh, it's very jewel-like or you can do things to make it like the jewelry of your home.

39:16No, this was literally presented like jewelry. You open drawers and there were, you know, like nails pouring out in handles and brass handles. And there were vitrines and precious little like knobs that were like displayed in vitrines. So I love that presentation. And I'm super sorry. I don't remember who did it. And if anybody out there does, just contact me and let me know. People are going to write in after they hear this. Yeah, please do. Well, so the percent of what you see in Milan during this incredible week that actually makes it to market, that actually comes over in some meaningful way for consumption here in the States or elsewhere versus things that are just being shown to you in a way to just create inspiration or marvel.

40:06What's your sense of that? Well, there used to be a kind of old sauce statement that when you went to Cologne in January, that's where the orders were written. But you went to Salone in Milan in order to see the new ideas. And if things didn't make it past the prototype stage, it didn't really matter. You were there more or less for the inspiration. And it's the equivalent of, you know, going to a concept car show. You know, you hope that lots of what you see is going to be translated. And in fact, quite a bit of it is. And I'm sure many, many orders are made in Milan as well. But I think that notion that this is a canvas of just, you know, unbridled imagination is something that has made that fair really special.

40:49And the images that you saw beforehand, the things you knew were going to be there, did they live up to your expectations? Did you, were you surprised or delighted by the level of execution with any of them? Absolutely. And I hadn't planned to do this. So I thought, oh, you know, I've covered these with writers, stories about all sorts of different presentations. So I'm not going to bother even going and visiting them. I'm just going to go see things I haven't seen. But then I found myself, you know, say, being at Alcova and running into, you know, some of these objects that we had written about, like these beautiful glass vases that were done by Kiki Goti and were displayed in one of the buildings at Alcova.

41:31And these were glass vessels, hand-blown in Murano, that were, there were three of them, and they were based on the designer's family members, her mother, her aunt, and her grandmother, and in a very abstract kind of way. And they were really big. I'm like, oh, wow. Well, I'm looking at an image of them now, and I'm wondering, really? Now, which one is which? Oh, you know, we actually, there's a story inside there, Dennis, where you can, you know, where it's, I think the rotund one is her grandmother, one all the way on the right is her mother. The aunt is a really skinny one, who I think it was very kind of body conscious.

42:10But, yeah, I think that just for seeing them, you know, just the way they were presented in a very different way was Starling. That happened to quite a lot of things that I kept seeing and saying, you know, it looks better in person than in pictures. Well, I also feel as though often we're being sent some kind of messaging from Milan. Did you get a sense of something that was coming out as a message or a direction for us to be thinking about? I mean, that's a really good question. Milan always breaks itself down into parcels. So you have the things that are like very ecologically conscious, are very environmentally or futuristic minded.

42:51And that's one whole kind of parcel. And then you have the oldies but goodies that are being brought back, often because companies, especially if they're facing hard economic times, are going to look back in their catalogs and do revivals. And that hasn't changed. Year in and year out, you all see all sorts of wonderful things coming back, like Joe Colombo chair for Cartel or Pierre Polin doing a relaunch of his two-up-550 piece for Art of Ford. I mean, so you're going to have those sorts of things as well. Messages are always like, the past was fantastic. Isn't it great that we have it back? The future is looking dire, but isn't it great that designers are addressing that the way that Benjamin Hubert and Lehrer studio did with a bunch of prototypes that they showed at Corsacomo.

43:37And then there's the whole color palette deal. Because when you're looking for trends at Sone, it's sort of like, you know, you are Ms. Pantone. What is going on with color? What is the message of the palettes that I'm seeing? And sometimes those messages or things are like going, I don't know if that's true, but it sounds good. But I can tell you, Dennis, that there is no question in my mind that we are seeing this same color palette this year was like a blue that has been dulled, a chestnut that's not quite oxblood, a kind of a dullish reddish brown, and then there was dulled green. So in other words, darkened, drier, duller color of the primaries.

44:22And I wrote a story years ago for the Wall Street Journal where I examined the color teal, and I came to the conclusion that the color teal was completely connected to really affluent times, like 1920s, came back in the 1950s, came back in the 1980s. It was right back there in the early 2000s before the recession. And what we're seeing like now is like that teal has gone really dull. Same with when I meant to say oxblood, it might have sounded like that's kind of a weird reference. But oxblood's another one of these colors that come from prosperous times where I think people have enough money to feel like they can make really just sort of radical choices and then throw it out next year if they don't like the way the teal or the axe blood looks.

45:07And we tend to go into more neutral territory, of course, if we're pulling back. We weren't quite there in neutrals. Next year, everything might be beige. But this year, I definitely saw that there was this already a cautionary toning down of the palette, and especially those reds and those blues and those greens. So darker, drier, potentially signaling a little bit of a financial concern, a little bit of people pulling back a bit. And maybe not showing if you actually have resources, maybe you don't want to flaunt them, possibly. Okay. Interesting. All right. Well, I love that you've given us some history on teal and what that's meant over the years.

45:48We're not in a teal moment, it sounds like. We're so not in a teal moment. And it's funny, I had done that story for the Wall Street Journal, and I thought they'd be all into it because I was making the claim that, you know, you can actually have it as an index of where the economy is going, looking at teal. Like if you see that blue getting brighter, that's the time to buy. And you know what? They didn't care. They didn't believe me. Forget the 10-year treasury. You should be looking at teal to see what's happening. Did they listen to me? No. I can't believe you couldn't convince the Wall Street Journal of that.

46:24I know. Well, but now we have that as an indicator. So now we have the teal indicator and you bet I'm going to be monitoring that closely. I don't know what to read into Butter Yellow's big moment then. What does Butter Yellow tell us about how we're feeling or how optimistic people are? I don't know. I only saw one buttery yellow room and it was fabulous. It was fabulous. Somebody, and again, I didn't write down their name. I'm ridiculously, you know, like such a bad journalist, but I did go into, and if anybody wants to contact me, I will find it and let you know there was a, an installation done by an interior architecture firm where they did one room that was, everything was buttery yellow.

47:05And I thought that is just, it took a really big leap of faith to put everything in that color, and it really worked. Did you get to the fair itself? And was there anything that stuck out there, which I tend to think of as things that we might be more likely to see coming to America sometime soon? Yeah, no, I did get to the fair, and it was really remarkable. So this was the year of Iro Luce, the lighting show, and lighting is always interesting. So this was no exception. I was particularly taken with a project by Doshi Levine that they did for the lighting company Vibia, where they did a lamp that was based out of fabric.

47:47Every year, you see innovative works with textiles. But I found a lot that was very interesting this year. And this was one case where they were using a checked fabric and they were using a Japanese pattern cutting method of creating a very lamp that was really about the textile. And, you know, this has been one of the great joys of LEDs is that they're cool enough that she can mix them with any kind of material. So this fabric, it was still in a prototype stage. and Doshi Levine, this couple, lovely couple, Niba Doshi and Jonathan Levine were going, it's not quite there. It's not quite there.

48:24But I'm really looking forward to when it is there. It looked extremely promising. Also in that textile, interesting trend also at the fair were Jaime high on stools for Nanny Markina, which basically looked like carpets that had been folded and then stuck on their ends on the floor and then you could sit on them. The whole notion was that the entire structure of the piece looked like it was created by carpeting. And then Magus, the German company I thought had a really wonderful display this year that was, I felt was super strong. And there was a prototype for sound absorbing upholstered furniture.

49:06Like, of course, we have upholstered furniture. They're called chairs. But these were like dressers and credenza-type pieces that had the sound-absorbing fabric that was put on them. And they were very, very intriguing. So with the idea that these pieces of furniture would help to quiet the whole room? Exactly. Interesting. Okay. Okay. Well, so I'm curious. I feel as though there was this conversation about more people were pulling out of the fair and just showing around town or out of town. Is that part of what has been going on? And is that still going on? What was your sense of that? Well, yeah.

49:48I mean, there has been the movement of some major companies leaving the fairgrounds and going into the city at large, part of the Flore Salone or the larger entity of Milan Design Week. Definitely the total number of exhibitors at the fair has gone down. I mean, in 2023, there were 1 ,991 total exhibitors. Last year, 1 ,950. So it's a slight decrease. I don't know what the number was this year. I did see that now the fair is laid out all on one level. And there has been, especially in Euroluci, a redesign so that you don't have this feeling of tight little booze all kind of crammed together, that there's a more spacious feeling.

50:34feeling. It's easier and more comfortable to walk around and see the exhibits that seems to have been partially motivated by a decrease in the number of exhibitors. But the end result is it felt really good. I mean, you're never going to have the same experience walking around a fairground, you know, in a convention center, as you are going to do around the streets in Milan or in the wonderful little palaces and boutiques where they put design. But I did find the experience was better. It was crowded as ever, but it still felt like you could see more because I think that more space had been allotted to individual booths, at least the ones that I had seen.

51:14Well, so when you think about what people are going to be talking about most coming out of Milan, you've mentioned several things that made an impression on you. What do you think most people will take away? And are there things that you can imagine people dining out on for some time to come? Well, I think, you know, the fashion labels, as usual, came in, you know, like in their stunning, doing stunning presentations, eating everybody else's lunch for the most part, because the investment is so enormous and the results are so spectacular. I tend not to go to all of them because I feel like, you know, they'll get plenty of coverage and I'd rather see if I can root at some of the things that are not going to have the same amount of press.

52:04But I did, for instance, go to Hermes because, you know, you have to. You couldn't help yourself. Sure. It was a beautiful exhibition. But I think one of the things that was noticeable about it was that what they were pushing out there was still pretty modest for Hermes. I mean, stunning glassware, So beautiful, colorful, perfect, pure, beautiful glassware. Cashmere textiles, throws, they were so lovely. But that was kind of it. In this space called La Palota, in the Brera neighborhood, which has been legendary for the kinds of displays that's been there. This was as beautiful a display as any I've ever seen in terms of way that it was constructed.

52:49But the objects that were filling it suggested to me that we are seeing even now that pulling back that, you know, as you're observing at the beginning of the podcast, there has been problems, economic problems going on globally, and that there is surely going to be some kind of reflection of that at the fair. and here we are at Hermes and I was thinking, wow, really beautiful what I'm seeing. But in terms of the kind of, I don't know, innovation or the scale of it, it seemed like it was pretty small within this really stunning exhibition space and this really beautifully managed display. And one thing I would point out in terms of that is if you're an old hand at Milan like I am, you kind of make comparisons.

53:37sense. Like this space, La Palota, which, you know, which is, La Palota refers to highlight, the game of highlight. So it looks like a sports arena, but in a very elegant way. It has hosted some of the most spectacular presentations in people's memories. And, you know, I remember the old established in Sons, this British company doing these chests stuffed with the most remarkable furniture in that exact same space. Or I remember the year that Vitra took all of its basic production and arranged it very artistically as if the chairs and tables were in conversations with each other in that exact space.

54:18So to see some lovely vases and cashmere throws, even by Hermes. Just made you think, are they even trying? I mean, come on. Or what's going on? I mean, far for me to make any analysis of Hermes. You know, for all I know, they've got teal on the, you know, ready to, you know, display. But it just felt like it reminded me that a friend of mine who's a photographer who was walking around part of the fair with me this year looked at me and said, what's with all the glass vases? Why so many glass vases this year? And maybe one of the answers, and I don't know if Hermes should be even in this group, But maybe one of the answers has to do with that glass is very easy to make beautiful and innovative and portable.

55:06Not a lot of R &D goes into a glass face. And you can have really huge results from it. So I think, you know, if we're looking at other indicators, economic indicators, in addition to the dull blue, you might look at the glass faces. Oh, and mirrors. Lots of really interesting mirrors. Right. Right. Right. So in a few weeks, it will be ICFF and NYC by design and everything that's going on in New York. And there's always this feeling of, gosh, why can't New York be more like Milan, this great city with everything that it has to offer? Why doesn't it turn itself out in the same way that Milan does?

55:49What's your sense of that? It's a question I've been asking for literally decades. And I think it's a combination of things. One is that I think the culture of design is so powerful in Milan, and it engages everybody in that community. So that helps a lot. that when we put on design fairs in New York, and it's very different from Fashion Week, but with the design fairs, they tend to get swallowed up in the middle of all the other activities. And I've often said that I don't understand how a million people can come out and watch the marathon every November, and they can't be bothered to go out and see what's going on in Design Week, even though there has been an attempt by the city to advertise it in taxis and through posters and other forms of promotion.

56:38The other or another consideration is that Milan does provide these wonderful places to see design. And I think that the Alcova Fair has succeeded so well. It's now the fifth or sixth year as a side fair that happens during the design week because it has made it its business to go into interesting places. And even if you travel a bit from Milan to go there, which you had to do, and it took about half an hour minimum to get out to where you needed to go to see what was there. I personally think the destination made it worth it. I also thought there was good design that was worth seeing. But that's always a concern is that there's so much to see, so little time to see it.

57:23I don't want to risk going a long way and being disappointed. But if I'm going to a beautiful palace like the Villa Bagheetti Valsecki or if I'm going to this great modernist 1930s, I believe, building the Villa Borsoni, I'm actually, I reached a destination that could be empty and it's been worth my time. Other editors may not say that, but I definitely think that that's the case and it's been very successful for a lot of the places in Milan. Yeah, maybe we have to talk to the marathon organizers and get some tips. For sure. Right? For sure. But Julie, I want to thank you so much for making the time.

58:03It's such a pleasure to talk with you about all of this, and you're so generous to make the time. Oh, thank you for having me. It was a real pleasure. I'm joined now by interior designer Ghislaine Vinyas, who has just returned from Milan and is going to tell us all about her experiences while she was there. So it seems like hundreds of thousands of people descended on Milan. They've been sending me numerous reports of just... Yeah, 500 ,000. Is that right? Is that what you heard? Okay. Well, that's a huge number. But how did the mood feel in general? Were people feeling pretty upbeat or... Oh, absolutely.

58:43Yeah? There was a great... I mean, everywhere we went, there was just a great vibe. And you know what? It was a bit of a weird time, right? because the tariff thing had just hit. But it sounded like they weren't letting that get in the way. Oh, no, no, no, no. Everybody was so, yeah, there was really a very jovial, positive attitude kind of everywhere. I think it's also like it was the beginning of spring. It was just like it's very hot and absolutely gorgeous weather. So I think that everybody felt very just happy. And yeah, it was a very, very positive vibe for sure. Well, so I'm always curious from a commercial standpoint, because so often when you go to see various installations, they seem more art and creativity driven than they do necessarily commerce driven.

59:38Like, oh, I can't wait to get home and order 10 of those that I just saw. This kind of one of a kind light fixture. But did you find, A, did you find things that you could imagine wanting to order or incorporate somehow? Or did you find things that even just made you think about doing something in a different way, which is, I suppose, part of the inspiration part? I would definitely say more of the inspiration part. I'm not really going there thinking I'm going to find specific products if I do or new designs. I think it's just, and I don't go with expectations of what I'll see. I think I'm just taking it in.

1:00:19And, you know, it's a long way to go for seeing a daffodil on the street. But, you know, it kind of is. But when you see that daffodil in the lawn next to that church, I mean, that's a whole different experience. I mean, that's a whole different kind of experience. It's a Milanese daffodil, for God's sake. It's a Milanese daffodil. I mean, that is absolutely worth the trip. I mean, forget the ones that are in my backyard at this very moment when you could see it. Yeah, no, no, it's much more about that. It's the word juxtaposition just comes to mind and it's really strong for me because it is so much new with so much old, with so much history, with so much.

1:00:58I mean, I'm always more interested in the stranger, weirder, odder, kind of unexpected sort of things. So, yeah, and I think that's the whole thing, that you never know what you're going to see. And you're so, everything is such a surprise, you know, because there's not a lot that lets, I mean, you kind of know something what's going on, but there's not a lot to see on Instagram beforehand. Everything, it's a big reveal when you're there. So, that was beautiful. You know, Alcova was absolutely so beautiful. And so, you know, it was, Alcova took place just about like a half an hour out of the city.

1:01:42And tell people what that is. So tell people what Alcova is. It's an amazing platform where they show very innovative exhibitions. And they had it in the town of Veredo. It was in four different buildings. As you go there, there's four different buildings. One of them, the first one we went to was this incredible Villa Bugatti. And it's this 19th century Lombard Villa. And it's just amazing. And inside it, there were all these different designers who had different kind of rooms. And it's very global, like Japanese designers. There are a bunch of Japanese designers and sort of from all over the world.

1:02:28It's very, very special and surprising and lovely and interesting. And also there you're out of the city, so the space is kind of bigger and people milling around and, you know, you can get a coffee whenever you want or a Negroni and you sit down. It is a sort of wonderland, you know, where it's easy to forget what's going on in the real world. And lucky for the people who get to go and experience that, You know, it's great for every designer possibly to try and go there once in their life, you know, just to experience the whole thing. You know, some people go all the time. And I think different design shows in different countries have different energies and you get different things from them.

1:03:19But, you know, this could not have been timed better. And as you were saying, I mean, it's also it's it's such an international show. And often we Americans are very American centric. And when you go to Milan, and I saw the breakdown of the numbers, I think representatives from the US were less than 3 % of the show's attendees. Oh, really? Yeah. So, I mean, it's really, it's a very global show and that actually, you seem like you're probably bumping into a bunch of Americans while you're there, right? But really, it's people from all over the world and the American representation is actually a pretty small part.

1:04:02I think that's also an interesting part of the experience. It really is such a global show. And again, you're seeing things that you just wouldn't in a show here in America. Nothing against ICFF or some of these other very contemporary shows. There were a lot of people saying like, why can't New York have this caliber? I was like, well, this is sort of a global stage here. you know, and I mean, obviously, it's not the first time that I've heard this. But, you know, I think New York is moving towards that. You know, in some, you can't compare, you know, different cities have different ways of doing this.

1:04:46And I think that Milan has just been doing this for such a long time. And there's such history there. And well, and I think it's a great point. And we were having this discussion just recently, because of course, NYC by design is coming up in just a few weeks and ICFF. And there's always this clamoring for why isn't New York able to put on a show like that? But Milan especially is so programmed to put on a show. Fashion week is huge there. And there's so much fashion overlap with what's going on with furniture and design over there. And so many huge fashion brands, LVMH and many of its sister brands were putting on huge installations.

1:05:34And they're partially fashion, right? And they're partially interior. Gucci, MS. Yeah. Prada had a bunch of them going on. Yeah. So the city itself just seems always geared up to put on a show like that. But it will be interesting to see more and more how parts of it perhaps could come to New York. But I think that, you know, there were some really interesting things that were going on there. For example, Casino had a staging. It was called Staging Modernity. And it was in this theater. And I knew nothing about this. So we just passed and I was like, we should, or maybe Mia told me we should go in here.

1:06:20It was the 60th anniversary of Le Coupier Boussier and they had former Fertasma to the installation. So when you go in, it's this theater, all these red chairs have been moved around. You start on the stage. And so I thought there were all these just iconic stages of platforms throughout where the audience usually sits. But then I'm going through and the lighting is exquisite and there's a beautiful soundtrack going on. And then all of a sudden these actors come out of nowhere and start interacting with the audience. And then there's a whole story and singing. And so it was a whole theater piece that was kind of pulled into it.

1:07:09And you were like, oh, my God. Okay, well, I didn't know this was going to happen. And it was so delightful, you know. It was just such a – I mean, we also just happened to go in at a time where there were no actors there yet. And then so we were walking around and we were like, oh, what's this person doing? Oh, wait, what? You know, so it was really beautiful. And this theatrical performance, and it was all about the natural world and animals and also, you know, the history of Cassina and Le Corbusier and all of this interesting stuff. It was fantastic. Absolutely, like, bewildering and lovely and enchanting.

1:07:56Well, again, I feel like, I mean, and how extraordinary that all sounds. And it's hard for me to imagine them putting that on at ICFF or in New York somehow. But I'm often in awe of how these companies can tell a brand story like that. And what an incredible way to celebrate an anniversary of a collaboration that is so renowned. Good creative directors. Yes. Yes. Well, and I feel like they're willing to invest the money, the time, and to really latch on to a big idea like that and then just execute it at such a high level. Yeah. Well, so anything else that you got to see that stuck out in your mind?

1:08:44Absolutely. So Patricia O 'Keele is just, I mean, she can do no wrong. She's a force. So she did a, there was an exhibition by El Decor Italia. And it was kind of like all about living indoors and garden rooms. And so she did quite a big space that had sort of a cross going through it, sort of these four quadrants. And it was, it was just the most magical space. It was in a beautiful old building. She kind of conceived it as a double telescoping space. So one was towards a window greenery and then the other was like towards a digital dreamscape. So she had all these beautiful furniture pieces, all this ceramic, ceramic tile.

1:09:33It was a dreamscape for sure. And it was all about botanicals. I mean, you didn't really have to really fully understand what you were looking at because it was such a delight. and the forms and the shapes and the colors and the audio and the lighting, I think that was a huge thing as well. The amount of audio and lighting in the installations was that you just got that. It wasn't just visual, you know, that it was just really capturing all the senses and it really made a huge difference. So often, I mean, I'm surprised I didn't trip there or fall or, you know, a chip of tooth or something because very often that lighting was very low just to get that ambience in and then you're going down creaky stairs and you know I made it without a single injury but and it made the mood sort of so special and it just really transported you into this world that these designers wanted to put you in.

1:10:38Well so it sounds as though I mean and again this is part of the magic of going to this show. It sounds like it is an uplifting and inspiring show that you come home with a feeling that I hope lasts for quite a while. I mean, I hope that you feel uplifted in a way that perhaps spurs some new creativity or just affects how you feel in general. I think I process the energy in a way that brings on creativity for me. So I don't think it's quite a direct, you know, like I see things and I use them. I think it's just more of being in such an inspiring place and seeing how there are such creative people out there doing such wonderful things.

1:11:33And we really see a lot of the same with the internet and Instagram. It's really hard to see stuff that is truly surprising. It takes a level of genius, I think, to come up with something that you feel is really fresh. And there were things that I saw there that I felt was just really exhilarating and fun. And I think it challenges me always to kind of think differently. That's when I think I do very good work or my best work is when I'm thinking outside of the norm or combining things or fusing things that shouldn't live together or be together. And it's the oddities that I sort of love. So it does give you a – it also sort of gives you a stop and refresh and kind of start again, which is great.

1:12:27um yeah it's it's just uh i feel very lucky to be able to go and enjoy this and be a part of this you know well and do you and do you tell clients so here you you go away for a week do you tell clients listen i'm going over to to milan and and do you do you share with them anything that you that you take away from it or is it more sort of personal for you yeah i think it's a little bit more personal although my clients do know that I'm going and I will you know text images of things that I've seen to them you know with the clients that I have very close relationship with I'll you know I saw this amazing sauna and texted it and then there was this light fixture that we were purchasing from the future perfect which we had seen smaller versions of it but then I saw the actual version that's like four foot, like almost five feet, five foot long sconce.

1:13:21So we saw that and I took a picture and sent it to my client of me standing next to it. And so, yeah, there's connections there, but it really is just for myself. I go, you know, for the team members to be inspired, to, you know, to, yeah, it's a refresh, a reset. I'm bursting with ideas and things that I want, new energy, and it's fun. Well, that's great. Well, I'm thrilled to get to talk to you about it, and I thank you so much for making the time to chat with me. Thank you, Dennis. Thanks for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure.

1:14:00And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred? TikTok caught my eye this week, Dennis. I think it's still legal as of the time of this recording, but apparently one of the kind of funny side effects of these 145 % tariffs on China is that apparently, allegedly, Chinese factories that make like RH Furniture are making an appeal directly on TikTok to say, hey, don't want to pay that tariff? Just work with us directly and we'll sell you a cloud sofa, which is, I don't know, it's a funny little viral moment.

1:14:34I feel like we need to do a deep investigation of whether this is real or not, but I would just urge listeners not to place that order? Because I'm guessing the return policy on a TikTok factory is maybe a little dicey. Did you see those as well, Dennis? I was inundated with them and so many people sending me things and should I be worried about this was the question. And I feel, no, do not worry about people going to China and trying to have it made on their own. Listen, are there some people that are going to do that? Sure, knock yourself out, good luck. But I don't think that's going to take any major business away from anyone in the short term.

1:15:11And it is a wildly complicated process. So don't enter into it lightly. We should talk about it more because there's much to discuss there. Yeah. Well, what caught your eye this week, Dennis? Well, the earlier piece that we talked about, the DIY article, was actually part of the New York Times magazine section that was all about real estate and home. And there are actually quite a few interesting articles to read about. But the one that particularly got my eye was an article on bunkers. Yes, people having underground bunkers built in their home. And it's apparently Snow Laughing Matter. There's quite a number of bunkers and sort of safe rooms and some escape patches that people are having built.

1:15:56And so I want to hear from designers out there about the bunkers that they're building for people. That is no doubt a fascinating conversation. What's bunker decor look like these days? I don't know. Bunker chic. Right? I mean, and White Lotus. Are you bringing a little bit of White Lotus into the bunkers and doing that? I don't know. What do you want it to feel like? So, I mean, that was interesting to me. The other thing that I wanted to talk about is, as we said earlier, High Point is just around the corner. and one of the big things going on at High Point is a return to the High Point Theater with the big Lalloy panel that I will be moderating with none other than Jeremiah Brent and Naz Nozawa, who we talk about often on the show, Mikkel Welsh, Brian Paquette, and Ashley Montgomery will be joining me on stage.

1:16:47So how anyone is going to get a word in edgewise on that huge panel, I don't know, but it is no doubt going to be a very fun panel and I hope to see many of our listeners there. The can't miss show of the market. Right? Absolutely. Just another reason to go to High Point. One, to find out what things are going to cost going forward and two, to see that fun panel. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

1:17:25This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.