The Thursday Show: How algorithms broke design culture. Plus: Tariff price hikes are here

24:32And I also think it's fascinating just how huge the inventory that Wayfair brings in. I mean, I think they estimated that it was something around 30 million SKUs that they bring in. So, of course, they're not seeing each piece. And unlike so many companies, unlike Williams-Sonoma and other companies that actually develop a lot of their product and bring in prototypes and then see the final piece, They are just bringing in all these pieces from all over the world and often waiting for consumer reviews to tell them how good or bad a product is. Right? I mean, that's a lot of what's been driving it.

25:11And also the fact that they opened a retail location is, I think, making them probably feel much more self-conscious maybe or just wanting to be much more aware of what they're actually putting out on the floor and how people think about it. But I also wonder if this is a way, since it sounds like only a small fraction initially of the pieces that they bring in, about 50 ,000 pieces I think they said that they were going to actually get these verified labels on. It may be a way for them to start to vastly reduce what they bring in. If they can start to lean into some of the verified product and feel a little bit more responsible and a little bit more connected to some of that inventory, I wonder if in a year or two we see a much smaller SKU count because of this.

26:02Yeah, so many interesting sort of components of this. Like your point about them having physical stores is, you know, they talked about that being the catalyst for having this program. And it's just so funny. It's like Wayfair comes along 20, we're going to disrupt the furniture industry, we're going to get rid of stores and sell direct. And now 20 years later, they're opening stores and doing quality control. It's like, it's a story of every disruptive brand. They come in with a ton of money, they disrupt the industry, then they recreate what was there before. But yeah, I mean, like, to be fair, you know, if tons of people shop on Amazon, I shop on Amazon, you know, Amazon isn't necessarily looking at every product individually.

26:34I think this is kind of the way that e-commerce works. And, you know, it's an imperfect system, but it's not totally crazy not to look at every little item that's coming through e-commerce store. I actually really wonder about all the cans of worms that this opens up because what does verified really mean? It means that a couple of people at Wafer HQ sort of looked at it and sat on it, banged it with a hammer. But, you know, I actually on some level think customer reviews are, I don't know, maybe they have their own problems because they're gamified. But it's very difficult when you as a company start to say that this thing is verified.

27:04Like, what does that really mean? How does that impact consumer behavior? Does that piss some vendors off that they can't be verified? How can you really accurately assess 50 ,000 pieces really quickly? I'm very curious to check on this in a year, as you mentioned. Does this become their entire selection? Do people complain about the verification? Do some vendors revolt? I don't think it's a bad idea for Wayfair to do, but I do think it's complicated. I'm really interested to see how it rolls out. Well, and also, so I think many people see Wayfair as a low-cost option to a lot of these pieces.

27:36And so are people adequately lowering their expectation for the quality level of some of these pieces and willing to accept that as a tradeoff? I get it. It might not be the best chair in the world. I'm getting it for$299 and I'm getting it next week. And so I always wonder with that kind of model if that's not built into people's expectations. A lot to watch here. It's an interesting story. And again, 30 million different SKUs is just an awful lot. So we'll see if that number stays as high as that in the future. We will be all over this story. In the meantime, Fred, we've got to talk about Butter Yellow.

28:14For Vogue last week, Elise Taylor wrote about the rising dominance of a shade called Butter Yellow, which began on the runways last year and is now gaining momentum in the home world. Now, Dennis, I know you have a lot of interesting insights about this. So you were dying to talk about this on the show. So let's. Fred thinks I pushed for this story. And I just want to say, if you knew what my other choice was, you'd have been with me on talking about Butter Yellow. But that being said, may I say, Fred, that once again, these colors just seem to have the best PR people working for them, right? I mean, you got to look up butter yellow.

28:55It turns out KitchenAid is named butter yellow, the color of the year. Timothee Chalamet is wearing it to the Oscars. And Timothy Corrigan is saying, yes, absolutely. I work this into my chateaus and my London projects. And even Heidi Callier apparently was giving Butter Yellow a shout out. What more do you need for brand representation? If you've got Timothee Chalamet and Timothee Corrigan on your side, those are the two most important Timothys in terms of getting a color started. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm always like a little bit skeptical about these stories just because I think you could plausibly say, well, red is the color of the year and find a bunch of red things in the marketplace.

29:33But I'm not going to indulge that trend conspiracy theory too deeply. I do think people are actually buying this stuff. And I was actually DMing with a guy who runs a betting company. I won't say which one. And he was talking about how they kind of saw this coming. And, you know, it's doing well. And I think that, like, that's kind of the right way to think about these color trends is that it's not going to, you know, cause someone to throw away their sofa and start over from scratch. But with stuff like textiles and, you know, pieces that are a little bit more disposable, a little bit more, you know, seasonal, I do think you see these colors impacting sales.

30:07And so, you know, hey, butter yellow, I'm here for it. Get some butter yellow sheets. I love that idea. Right after we're done here, I'm going to go order some. Absolutely. You know, what's interesting about butter yellow, I mean, all joking aside, what's interesting is that it is such a highly recognizable historical color. I mean, whether you're the Nancy Lancaster yellow room, and it was interesting, David Netto in the latest issue of El Decor even mentioned when talking about Veer Granny's fabulous space. He brought in the Colfax and Fowler butter yellow. And so – and you do see it as an exterior paint color on so many homes.

30:44And I thought it was interesting speaking about Timothy Corrigan. He actually did a talk with me at NYCID recently, and he was talking about part of the reason that he's been using Butter Yellow is because it is such a happy color. And he's realizing that a lot of his clients are less happy than they might have been a few years ago. Lots of pressures, lots of tensions for all these clients of his. And Butter Yellow is helping to soothe their souls and make them feel a little bit happier. So he does actually think there's a big psychological tie-in with the color, which I think is also welcome.

31:19Too much sad beige. Butter yellow is just for the doctor. Spread some butter yellow on that sad beige, and you got yourself a nice thing. Yeah, I mean, and you didn't even mention Mario Boato, who's famous for, you know, butter yellow, as he liked to say. I do think it's kind of a cool color to be in because it's a little more, it's high risk, high reward. I mean, I sort of feel like beige, you can just make an entire room beige and it kind of goes together and you can, you know, layer in a couple of colors and it looks okay. But yellow is a difficult color. I mean, I know you say like there's lots of exterior paints, but like, you know, yellow in the interior can go wrong.

31:56It can spiral out of control. And I do think that like pulling off the right color balances with butter yellow is difficult. So I welcome a buzzy color that like really, you know, utilizes an interior designer's full skill set. because I do think it's been too easy for influencers and dilettantes to take advantage of sad beige. Now we need a trickier color to be the it color. Well, you know, great point. And let's see how people step up to this challenge that you've just thrown down there, Fred. Let's see how they work butter yellow into rooms in ways that work and that are flattering to the complexion because that's so important as well.

32:32So I look forward to it. The ultimate challenge is making my complexion look good against yellow. If you can pull that off, Got yourself ahead. Exactly. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including April's can't miss design events and why Ohio's attorney general is suing Burke Decor. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

33:01We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Jaypore Living. Jaipur Living's curated collection of geometric rugs brings the art of angles and timeless craftsmanship into the home. Inspired by the patterns of faraway places, from Moroccan tiles to Bauhaus lines, these artisan-made rugs tell a story of style, movement, and a life well-traveled. Let a handcrafted geometric rug transform your space. Explore the collection at jaipurliving.com or follow at jpoorliving on Instagram. And now back to the show.

33:44And we're back. I'm joined now by Kyle Chayka, staff writer at The New Yorker and author of Filter World, How Algorithms Flattened Culture. Kyle, so good to speak with you at last, sir. Thank you for having me. Let's bring people up to speed with some of your work and talk about this essay that I want to say you wrote almost 10 years ago. 2016, yeah. Right? So you have been chasing this whole notion for a long time. And so you wrote about airspace and how you noticed coffee shops and Airbnb spaces looking remarkably similar, even as you travel the world. So tell me a little bit about it. Circa, you know, 2015, 2016, I was working as a freelance journalist, and I was traveling a lot for reporting.

34:39And I was a freelancer, and I always wanted to find a coffee shop to work in. And I just discovered that no matter where I was, whether it was like Berlin or Los Angeles or Kyoto or Beijing, these cafes kind of look the same. Subway tiles on the walls and reclaimed wood furniture and ceramic mugs with latte art in your cappuccino and they would serve avocado toast and there would be hanging pendant lamps and I was just struck by the fact that these were all so similar to each other even though there was no force making them that way there wasn't a corporate parent company it wasn't like a set of standards that existed somewhere but instead it was just this like unity of style that existed independently it seems and so I wrote this essay to kind of figure out why that was happening.

35:27And my theory in 2016 was that this was because digital platforms had become globalized. Like what was connecting all of these baristas and coffee shop owners and decorators was now Instagram and social media. And that had kind of never happened before. It was like a new state of distribution of culture. And so it was this total aesthetic environment that had been homogenized. And that extended also to these Airbnbs, which were another kind of physical space that had been brought onto the internet. Like Airbnb created a marketplace and an ecosystem of physical spaces that were also online and were also presented as like goods to consume online.

36:13So I think the homogenization happened through the digital platform. And that started, you know, mid 2010s maybe. So fast forward, so almost 10 years later comes Filter World. And obviously, you've been looking at this and thinking about it for a long time. Tell us what's changed, if anything, and what you wanted to write about years later. Yeah, I think I expected that style to change. I expected fashions to shift. But I think they didn't as much, in part because digital platforms have become only more entrenched in the past decade. Like if in 2015, 2016, we were just starting to get on these multimedia cultural platforms like Instagram.

37:00Now in 2025, we're like beyond the pale. Like these digital platforms and feeds have infiltrated almost every aspect of our cultural production and consumption. So it's not just like what cafe you're going to, but it's what food you're ordering, what you watch on Netflix, what music clips you hear on TikTok, you know, even what products you get recommended on Amazon. So I think that theory that I had that there was something about the feed and the digital platform that homogenized things was proven out. And so I wanted to write Filter World as a kind of expansion of that idea and as a way to wrap my arms around it and to kind of write a history of the 2010s in online cultural distribution.

37:49Well, and then you talk about how the algorithms and how everything changed from what was once these chronological posts, and then suddenly that started to get boring or wasn't exciting enough. And suddenly, let's bring in the algorithms and explain a little bit of the history of algorithms and what the thinking was behind them. algorithms are these equations that figure out which kind of content appeals to us and then delivers more of it. But social media didn't have those algorithmic recommendations. Early Facebook was just the chronological list of posts, as you said. Instagram, if we cast our minds back, used to just be a feed of still images in order of which they were posted, which was great.

38:39but then social media became more and more algorithmic my hypothesis is that it was because there was simply so much content online like so many more people were suddenly posting more and more of their thoughts in their lives that it was not enough anymore to just see what was posted when you were online like there needed to be some kind of filter or recommendation system in order to just give you show you the stuff that you would want to see so you don't miss it because it was posted two hours ago. A consequence of these algorithmic platforms is that you see what succeeds really easily. Like it's a very iterative process.

39:16People are throwing millions of pieces of spaghetti against the wall every day and you see what sticks and you see what gets popular and you kind of adjust what you're doing sometimes to fit into that mold of success. And I think in the pandemic, like circa 2020, when TikTok really blew up in the US, you saw a whole new generation essentially of like social media stars succeed by riding that algorithmic wave because TikTok also represented the most algorithmic platform yet. Like it didn't matter who you chose to follow. It didn't matter your preferences almost. It was all about what the algorithm thought you were going to watch and like.

39:58Well, and what did you learn about what What made that TikTok algorithm so powerful and how it so quickly overtook these other platforms? And they all had to, and Instagram made so many dramatic changes, right? To try and copy and catch up. What is, I mean, it makes me think of how platforms themselves have homogenized, right? Like now they all act like each other. And there's just kind of like one form of social media. I mean, TikTok did have the best recommendation algorithm. I think Jonah Peretti, the founder of BuzzFeed, recently talked about how when he first saw TikTok and talked to that company, he just said that they were using machine learning and early AI tech the most in their algorithm.

40:49So it was literally better technology, more advanced. But I think there was also a way in which it just... like the great epiphany of TikTok is that the user doesn't care about expressing themselves. Like they don't care that they're not following the accounts. They don't care that it's like that they don't have to put in the work or think about what's in their feed. Like we just react subconsciously to the TikTok feed. So I think once the designers realized that, that you could just do away with following and like think for the user instead of allowing them to think for themselves, that is what allowed it to succeed so quickly.

41:26I think every digital platform and every algorithmic feed kind of generates its own generic style of whatever. Like there's a generic style of music, of decoration, of painting, and that's what succeeds in the algorithmic feed. But then when the platform changes, you also have to change what you're doing in order to fit into that generic style. So when Instagram went from still images to videos, oh, all of a sudden, if you want to succeed on Instagram, you have to start making good videos. And that's a totally different cultural output than a nice photo. It's like we went from print magazines to TV.

42:07All of a sudden, there's a different way that you have to be an artist, be a creator, be a voice. And not everyone fits into that. Not everyone wants to put their face and voice in a video. They might be better or more fluent in a still image. Well, exactly. And particularly in the interior design world, that is this moment that so many are facing. They are happy to post some beautiful image, to your point, of a project and say, look at this. Just finished this beautiful project in Rhode Island and wait till you see it. But now that doesn't get nearly the traction. in fact it gets very little response for the most part if you're not also showing us some crazy video of you doing the installation while also doing a dance while also finding the perfect musical track to put to that i mean yeah all of it yeah yeah i think it shows how the need to produce content then forces you to work in specific ways that shape the product itself like usually or before you'd have like the project which is the design and then you have the kind of ancillary content which might be the photo shoot the spread in a magazine but now I think you really have to you almost put the production of content first before the the thing itself and so you're thinking about okay how do I make the best content possible out of this project rather than in this case thinking about how do I make the best design possible yeah I think algorithmic recommendations have become the new curators and the new gatekeepers in a way.

43:48And so before we did have these human gatekeepers, we had editors and curators and record label executives. And those people were able to kind of exert their taste and point to something and say, okay, this is truly worth showing. Like I'm going to invest in the photo shoot and publish the essay and all of that. And now I think what dictates what gets exposure is just data and traffic and engagement. TikTok works in this way where it'll show a new video to 100 people at first and test that audience out. And if they really like it, they'll show it to 1000 people and then 10 ,000 and more and more.

44:27So it's this iterative like testing process of culture, which is the exact opposite of one person saying, okay, this is worth looking at. You know, I'm a big fan of shelter publications and like interior design content and stuff. And my Instagram has just been utterly taken over by increasingly generic mid-century modern slash Mexico City slash, you know, vaguely Italian mid-century, whatever. Like it's just this mash of influences and aesthetics. And now I find it so familiar that it's incredibly boring. Like you see the success of millennial gray and beige, and then you chase that and you reproduce it.

45:11And that's how the flattening happens. Like you, you copy the style that's succeeding and then more and more people copy it and it becomes more and more mainstream. And that kind of like homogenization always happens, right? Like people would copy the dress pattern that was in Vogue magazine. But I think this is just so much more dominant and so much more restrictive. And yeah, I think that the really capricious aspect of it is that, okay, we've gone through this era of millennial gray and beige and stuff. And now we're like, oh, cool. Gen Z loves maximalism. Like we're back to bohemian carpets and wall hangings and funky ceramics.

45:51And yet that style will become just as dominant and generic as the millennial gray and beige. So it's like, the real question is, how do you escape that cycle of just looking at what is popular or mimetic at a certain point in time and try to chart some different path? Well, and you talk about trying to break free of that, and you actually stepped away from the platforms for a little bit of an algorithmic cleanse, right? Right. I miss it. Work required you to go back, sadly. But right. But but but but talk about that a little bit, because we can break free. It's not easy. We definitely can. I mean, as my job as a New Yorker columnist about the internet kind of forbids me from escaping for too long.

46:43But for the book, like as I was finishing writing it, I did do this three month algorithm cleanse where I just got off all these platforms, you know, and tried to look for other ways of consuming culture that were not driven by algorithmic feeds. And I did find that it really changed my relationship to what I was consuming. I mean, I was being less passive about my consumption. I was really choosing more actively what I was looking for and researching. and so in the absence of Instagram you know you're looking in art books you're going to more museums or something just because you want to feed that part of your brain and like get inspiration and I think I mean there's more serendipity and quality in going to a random museum gallery than there is in scrolling your Instagram feed because what's in that feed is just like what's getting rewarded with likes and what's getting promoted.

47:42I enjoyed that process. And I've also tried to practice this thing at art museums of just not thinking about the labels. You know, don't think about the creator of something. Don't think about who it is or why it's there. Just like try to experience the thing for itself and less for its context and its like fame in a way. And understand if you actually really like it. Exactly. Without the label, without knowing the famous artist that created it. Yes. You want to rely on your own taste and your actual feeling. This is what I'm thinking so much about now. I think social media and this mediation of the internet creates a barrier between you and your own feelings of the art.

48:28like whether it's visual art or music or whatever like it's it's this meta data it's it's not about the thing itself and I hope that by getting outside of the feeds and like thinking about the ways we consume culture more you can get back to just experiencing the thing and thinking about how it makes you feel rather than thinking about how many likes has this gotten is this viral Who else cares about it? It's so interesting to me because in the design world, so often you'll interview a designer and you'll ask some trend question. And great designers will say, trends, I don't pay any attention to trends.

49:12Everything I want is timeless. But at the same time, you go to market and all the furniture is covered in ivory boucle, right and everything has been completely neutralized and the most successful furniture store in the nation is rh that has absolutely leaned into the beige vacation of america and yay though they say they've got color coming soon it's been years that they've been talking about it it doesn't seem to be showing up so i don't know if they're afraid to step away from the algorithms there right because i mean they're pretty invested yeah i mean they captured the zeitgeist and in a lot of ways and they they profited from it greatly and I I love the boucle example because it's just so so dominant and I the other paradox of this stuff is that it works like I find that incredibly appealing I'm you know always in the back of my mind somewhere I'm like do I need a boucle armchair like that wouldn't that be cool uh but it is like you have to not chase trends too much and in a way realize that this idea of timelessness or enduring quality or whatever is also an ephemeral artifact.

50:25Like what we think of as timeless is always changing, except I suppose for, you know, the kind of Bauhaus standard. And then if you're going back to that, it's kind of like, well, can we never do anything timeless again? Like is the new, is the new just bankrupt and we will never have a good new idea? And I can't think that's true. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, this is very abstract, but I think there is this continuously updating, generic, dominant thing that it always exists and always will exist. And the more you can get away from that, the more you can find your own reference points, dive into the obscure rather than the well-known.

51:04That's how things become more interesting. I think art history does this well, and art galleries do it well. They're always digging up obscure voices from the past. like the woman painter from 1933 who has been totally overlooked. And that's how you, I think, update the canon and add new material even to your sense of the past. And I think that can like point a way forward. You know, you can never escape the popularity trap. Like something cool will always go viral and become generic and like get reproduced in fakes and everything. but if you're digging for new stuff if you're trying to like find the thing that no one else has found before that is very rewarding i think well and i couldn't tell if if micro trends and you touch on these a little bit in the in the book if if that was an attempt to capture a moment in time and hold up something that seemed different but of course is usually some homage to something from the past, right?

52:04So it's not different at all. Well, so the microtrends, I mean, I think algorithmic feeds have accelerated trend cycles and there is even more of a need to know what's popular, not just this year or this season, but this week, like this day, simply because things cycle so much because the algorithmic feed gets bored very quickly. Like when something goes from obscurity to universality, to overexposure, then you want to chase the next thing. And so microtrends kind of solve that problem by always supplying the new thing to look at. So in a way, it's like recreating archetypes and cliches that have already existed, like coastal grandmother aesthetic on TikTok.

52:51Like, that's waspy Cape Cod stuff. Like, that is very familiar and recognizable. It's just rebranded for a Gen Z video audience. My gut instinct, honestly, at this point, is that we may have passed peak social media. And I think there was this expectation in the 2010s that it was a good and constructive thing that everyone was posting lots of aspects of their lives all the time, their lives and their careers. We were all becoming public personas on this new social internet. And I think we realized that didn't really turn out that well. Most people, we don't really care that much about what they're wearing every day or their random thoughts about a TV show or whatever.

53:40Like that kind of lower tier social communication now happens in text threads and like more private spaces with your actual friends. and now social media is more and more professionalized to the point where we are passively watching broadcasts from basically professionals like a youtuber is a professional solo tv maker and so we're sorting ourselves into like the people who are not social media professionals and the people who are social media professionals and the latter category will increasingly become basically TV anchors and protagonists. And the rest of us, you know, if we're not posting videos of ourselves, are probably just in our text threads and, you know, posting our little Instagrams, not for hope of like profit or fame, but just to chat about stuff.

54:32And I think now the unit of production of the internet or like the cultural internet is barely even the content. It's the personality of the human behind it. So what we're connecting to is not just a fancy image or a well-produced video, but the persona of the designer, of the actor, of the writer, like the character they play, the way they turn their lives into this ongoing TV show that we want to follow. And so I think the people who are succeeding the most now are leaning the hardest into that parasocial existence. And that's a real dilemma. Like, are you an interior designer or are you a reality TV show star?

55:14Those are different things. And I think it should, it can and should be possible to operate your business, to be an artist, to be a creative without being that parasocial celebrity. Without having to be a reality TV star. I think so. I mean, I think it's still possible just developing one-to-one relationships and figuring out a sustainable business that works for you. Like there's still an appetite for music and design and paintings and whatever without the parasociality, without the broadcasting of your character and shaping yourself into a narrative. But for sure, the quickest way to succeed, the fastest way to fame and profit is to turn yourself into that character and lean into the algorithm as hard as you possibly can.

56:03And you might make it, or you might make it for a few years, and then the feed passes you by, and you're kind of left bereft without the attention that once drove your career. So it's a tough pill to swallow or something. And where does AI come into all of this and really start to mess with this? For one, AI is a continuation of the dynamics of algorithms, of algorithmic recommendations. So if algorithmic recommendations encouraged people to produce generic stuff, encouraged us all to follow each other, AI just spits out the generic thing immediately because it operates from a literal digestion of cultural averages.

56:46Like literally what runs the AI is a bunch of averages of every photo, every song, every image that has ever been made. So AI is just continuing the dynamics we've been experiencing. So the pendulum swing away from all that is the very human, is the one-to-one. And to me, you can see that already in the cultural obsession over concerts and over restaurants, which are like in-person, irreproducible experiences that either you're there or you're not. Like you might follow a restaurant on Instagram and be like, okay, this food is cool. But the fulfillment of that relationship is going to the restaurant and being in the room and literally ingesting the food into your body, which is not a thing that can happen online.

57:40And I think in media, too, we see this turn toward events and meetings and one-to-one relationships. And I think if we start with those building blocks now, then maybe in a few years, maybe in a decade even, we'll have slowly reconstructed good, sustainable, positive cultural institutions. That's what I hope, at least. That's my positive vision for the future. Well, this has been such a great conversation, and I so appreciate you making the time. The title of the book, again, is Filter World, How Algorithms Flattened Culture. Kyle, thank you so much. Thanks. This was really fun.

58:25And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Celine Valandis caught my eye this week. You know, we've been talking for the past few months about who is going to take over as editor-in-chief of Elle Decor. And a couple of weeks ago, we sort of, Hearst put this announcement out very quietly, just saying that Celine Volandis' role was expanding at the magazine. Now, of course, she's Town & Country's editor-in-chief and she had editorial leadership over Elle Decor.

58:54But, you know, this announcement sort of made it more clear that she's really taking more of a hand in shaping the magazine. There is going to be, you know, a to-be-announced editorial head or head of editorial at Elle Decor. But I suspect they won't have like a full on editor in chief and that person will functionally be Steline at the magazine going forward. So I'm excited to see what that looks like. I'm hopeful that she'll come on the show and tell us about what the next chapter of El Decor looks like. But congrats to Steline, who's a great editor. And I think we mostly have an answer to our mystery of who's the next editor in chief of El Decor.

59:26What do you think of that, Dennis? I think you're seeing already Steline's hand in some changes. is you can see some of the people that she's bringing on to write for the magazine. Armani on the cover? Well, I mean, exactly. And I think this most recent issue, actually, which I wanted to refer to because it's the designers at home issue, which is always a favorite of mine. And one of the people that's featured in it, and he actually writes a piece, is a recent podcast guest in an episode that a lot of people wrote to me about, the fabulous Ben Pentreif, who moved to Orkney in Scotland, A pretty bold move and a house that he decided to just live in for a while, honestly, before he wanted to make a lot of big design decisions about, which was interesting to hear him talk about and write about.

1:00:15So that's a fun one. Also in this issue, another thing that I wanted to talk about was at long last the reopening of The Frick. Ingrid Abramovich writes about the fact that you're actually going to get to see Henry Clay Frick's private residence for the very first time now that the museum has reopened. And it is really one of the great museums in New York City. And Annabelle Soldorf has been working on it for years. And it's very exciting that it has reopened. It's a really inspiring space. And it's another thing that I'm getting to this weekend that I'm very much looking forward to. Finally, the other thing that I wanted to just notice was that William Sonoma, a company that we talk about a lot on the show, has hit the big time and is now included in the S &P 500, which means that for most of us, we'll now be owning a little piece of William Sonoma in our retirement plans.

1:01:11So we want them to do especially well because of that. Exactly. I already carry them in my heart and now I carry them in my low-cost index fund. So good to know. Exactly. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.

1:01:51Amen.