The Thursday Show: How Dan Rosen became TikTok's favorite design critic. Plus: Who will take the helm at Elle Decor?

25:37Sure. So building off the success of the brick and mortar store he formerly ran, Robert Stillen has now debuted an e-commerce shop offering furniture and artwork sourced from around the globe. At the same time, Chloe Redmond Warner of Redmond Eldridge Design launched Rad Goods, her own product line, which she's selling online. Two designers getting into e-commerce goes against all my writing. Wait a second, Fred. I thought e-commerce was dead. I thought, no, wait. I thought you told us no more. Done. Well, OK, so a few months ago, I did write a 5 ,000, 10 ,000 word piece about how a lot of designers were pulling back from their e-commerce offerings that they launched during the pandemic.

26:15and that is still true. I went back and checked all the designers. None of them have relaunched their site. So there has been a pullback. I think it's notable to talk about what these two sites are. They're not drop shipping sites. They're not sites where you're selling, okay, well, here's a piece from Forehands. Here's a piece from Noir that you can get literally anywhere else. Just it happens to be through my website. These people are selling their own products that they exclusively control. In Chloe's case, it's her own line. In Robert's case, it's a lot of one of a kinds. And so I think that is the version of e-commerce that you can get into somewhat credibly.

26:48Maybe we should start with Robert. I mean, one thing I will say is these are not, this is not cheap. I mean, like I think I was looking at the chairs on Robert's site and was cheapest one was like$7 ,000 or something like that. This is not a kind of like impulse buy. I have a$42 ,000 coffee table in my cart right now on his site. So there you go. Yeah. There you go. What'd you think of it? Well, I mean, I think that, listen, I think this is part of Robert's DNA. He came up in the design industry through having a shop and being able to express his taste and his look through having a shop, which comes up in conversation a lot when you talk to designers and why they are so passionate about having a store, be it online or in person, is that they can express their look and their taste and you can get sort of a sense of what they're like.

27:38So I think it makes a lot of sense. He's wanted to do this and it fits in with his whole model, I think. Yeah, designers are natural shopkeepers. I think there's a lot of crossover in that Venn diagram. And I think this is a lot of it. Sometimes we talk about these big economic trends. This is no longer feasible or whatever. At the end of the day, when people want to try this, I think one of the cool things about e-commerce is that the barriers to entry are so low now that you can take a flyer on it. You can have fun. You can build an e-commerce site. And I think Robert is smart to, you know, populate his digital shelves with stuff that it does reflect his own aesthetic and is not just a bunch of dropship merchandise from the vendors that everybody else uses.

28:20Again, it's all very expensive. This is not, you know, impulse buy something for, you know, underneath the tree. This is something who's... No, and I'd be surprised if he doesn't end up selling a lot to his designer colleagues. Right, yeah, of course. I think that's who will find this site of interest. And it's worth going just to see images of his projects, actually, because he does such great work and you can find inspiration there, too. Okay, let's move on and talk about Kravitz's new partnership, not the Vision Pro, but another new partnership. A lot of Kravitz, a lot of Kravitz this week.

28:52The brand announced this week that it is now the exclusive distributor of British fabric and wall coverings brand Scion in the US and Canada. And now Scion is an interesting line because it's actually owned by Sanderson. So why is Kravit distributing another company's fabric, given that Sanderson does have a presence in the US, right? What's going on here, Dennis? Yeah, it's a great point. I think that Sanderson wanted to build on the success that they've been having with the Clark and Clark brand, which is another of their brands that Kravit is representing. I think that they wanted to create greater clarity in terms of what lines they would actually have in their own showrooms and what lines they want to have available with Kravit, for example, or another partner.

29:39And I think Kravit has proven to be a good partner for them. And so this different price point line, Skyon is a very different price point than their Morris line or their Zoffany lines, which have a much higher price point. I think this made sense to be in the hands of Kravit and just, again, take advantage of Kravit's very broad distribution. Yeah, it's interesting because I do think that like plugging a line into the Kravit machine gets you just in front of a whole lot more designers than it would if you tried to distribute it on its own. I will say also, you know, I spoke briefly with Kerry Kravit while I was in the showroom with the goggles on.

30:16And one thing we talked about was just that, you know, Kravit is definitely trying to emphasize the fact that they do work with these sort of smaller boutique lines on a distribution level. They recently purchased Caroline Cecil's line. They're trying to sort of get more boutique lines in front of designers because I think, you know, people have come to appreciate the brand for, you know, delivering, you know, basics very efficiently and having great showrooms and having good distribution. But I think they also want to be known for, hey, we have these small special lines to come check us out for that.

30:44And I'm guessing that, you know, we'll see more movement along this lines for the Kravitz to sort of like put fun, cool brands in front of designers, you know, more frequently. And they've started marketing them all together, too, as well. So it seems like, you know, there's something in it for both sides of the equation here. You know, I'll have to check it out in Kravitz showroom at the D &D building if they'll still let me in. I don't know if I'm on their do not enter list at this point. Dennis, are you can you darken those doors at this point in your career? I'm getting my fake mustache ready and seeing if I can sneak in myself because I'm pretty sure those cameras are going to pick us up, Fred.

31:19Yes. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of the industry's big hires this month and a look at the best debuts out of High Point Market. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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33:03And we're back. Today I am joined by comedian Dan Rosen, who became widely followed in design circles for some of his viral house tour videos. Dan, thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I was delighted to meet you not too long ago at ICFF and get a chance to chat with you. I've been following your work for a while, Dan. And sharing, I'm sure. Diligently sharing and liking and favoriting. Let's tell people a little bit about who you are and how you came to work on videos and marketing. A lot of different things in your background. Sure. I think I view myself as a comedian mainly.

33:46And for the last 10 or so years, I've been doing stand-up comedy. And then like everyone must these days, making internet videos and content. Just been turbocharged with TikTok and Instagram. And I went to art school. I went to Cornell. So there's a really strong architecture school there. And so many of my friends kind of were in that. So it was just kind of, I guess, a hobby. And then, yeah, during the pandemic, I started making these videos on TikTok almost by accident just because I think I, like everyone else, kind of became slightly addicted to some of the home tours that proliferated. and as we're all stuck inside, envious of how other people were living.

34:35And I had some issues with just some of the trends that I noticed. I kind of would just make these one-offs on TikTok, and it was by far the thing that resonated the most because I think I was still approaching it from a comedic angle and kind of roasting or being silly, but still trying to kind of keep a critical eye. And I guess I didn't expect people within the design community to kind of resonate with the videos as much as they did. And I kind of just viewed it as like, oh, these seem to be obvious trends or mistakes that I'm seeing that are bothering me. And this is the kind of design content that most people are viewing.

35:25It's by far the most popular medium. and people who don't know much about designer obviously don't read magazines or don't think about it much. They're getting it through celebrities in their homes. And to me, often these, I guess, homes felt lifeless or needlessly opulent or the point was just their opulence and luxury and they seemed to just be copying and pasting each other. And so, yeah, that kind of took off and exploded to when I'm talking to you. Today we're reviewing Kim and Kanye's house. I know they broke up, but I think this is important because the house is probably why. This is not a home.

36:07This is an Italian insane asylum. There's no stuff. There's like two stuffs. That's all there is in this house. White and nothing. You want a house that you live in, not one that's just made to be in a design magazine. Look how far this coffee table is from the chair. Like, are you gonna put your coffee here and then you're gonna like do a split to get the coffee? That's not conducive. This house is like an abandoned Roman ruin. Like, it's so minimal it doesn't even exist. That's why they got divorced because there's nothing to do in this house but like yell at each other and get in each other's space.

36:45Maybe if they had a TV or some books they'd still be together. Look at this sink. You know how many fights they probably had just because they kept flooding? Why? So in that video, you suggest that perhaps the reason Kim and Kanye broke up was the house. And listen, that's as good a reason as any of the other reasons for what went wrong in that relationship. But that video, like so many of the celebrity videos that you were just describing, you had some issues. You had some things that you wanted to point out. And I got the feeling from watching the early days of it, I got the feeling that at first you were just amusing yourself with it.

37:28And then it sort of caught on and you were like, oh, okay, yeah, sure. I'll serve up more of this since an audience is appearing. yeah yeah i i think definitely give the people what they want um and then you know now every time there's a new tour or new home people send it to me and like can't wait to hear uh your thoughts yeah i guess with that that kanye one you know that's actually right is um right does that who's yeah i obviously respect but the house and admire his work but that house is objectively insane and you know i i mean like everything else celebrity is like a really attractive hook to be able to talk about things that I think often made people not be interested in if there was not a glitzy name attached to it.

38:19And similarly, when I talk about art and trends in the art world, it's much easier if Mark Zuckerberg pays Daniel Oshama an insane amount of money to sculpt his wife. And then I can, you know, that somehow locks it in for many people who aren't in the design world that this is something they can be interested in or it's just a little hook. And then I'm kind of free to hopefully bring in some ideas about the use of space and obviously interior design and furniture and balance that I think to people outside the design world you know it's it's very much taken for granted and the the main thing that people seem to recognize is just like money and bigness and scale and um yeah and i think through the videos i'm trying to kind of examine how those there's actually a lot more to it to living in a comfortable um home and obviously it's you know it's oh people always love when you poke fun at the the rich and famous well so right so so that's what a part of what i'm interested in here.

39:25So earlier you were talking about how they suddenly resonated. And what was interesting was watching a lot of designers, very famous household name designers, clearly showing up for a lot of your content. I saw Jake Arnold in the mix and Martin Lawrence Ballard and a bunch of other big name designers were constantly liking your posts. And I hope being amused by them and and finding them enjoyable for what they were intended to be, right? Which was just sort of you poking a little bit of fun at maybe sometimes themes that were often seen, as you've suggested, and maybe, I don't know, if people were taking themselves too seriously or whatever element you were just kind of just poking at in a comedic sense.

40:15Yeah, I obviously didn't realize this when I first started, but it's kind of clear to me now that there seemed to be like a general lack of any sort of criticism in the design world. And that I had kind of stumbled onto something that was desired and felt needed. And I'm sure obviously people have takes and have a lot of thoughts about who's doing good work, who's derivative, who's kind of boring, who's being too safe, whatever. And there aren't really any design critics. I guess there's some architecture critics like whatever michael kimmelman or over wainwright but i feel like they don't do much design and i feel like most of the design media we do get is essentially pr yeah and so yeah and and that was a real surprise to me that people actually within the design world were like oh we this is maybe something that's that's necessary and helpful and also i'm sure maddening to many people who are extremely talented to see that the most popular videos and the most popular designers and homes that everyone was watching were things that were like really not that exciting.

41:29And I think there are worlds also quite similar. When I make videos about art, people are like so relieved that someone is actually talking about how the most well-known artists that your average person on the street knows actually really are not doing the most exciting, the most challenging things. And just that delta between what people in the design or art world think and what the general public is aware of is really big. And so I guess I, I like some through, through comedy was able to kind of bridge that gap a little bit. I think that's it. Exactly. Nothing is more fun than getting a few drinks in a highly opinionated designer who can't wait to tell you all of the terrible work that's being done and by whom, but then they can never say that publicly.

42:17That can never be on the record. And to your point, there isn't any real interior design criticism out there. And there certainly isn't a place where you can make jokes and create comedy sketches around it. And yet, as we all know, so much of it is absolutely hilarious. And you see these celebrity home tours, and it doesn't take a lot of work to find the comedy in it. You do a great job of sort of picking apart some of the themes. But I think secretly, so many people are sitting at home and having a laugh about it all, but we can't somehow speak publicly about it. And you can. And do you think it's just because it's just seen as uncouth to kind of trash your colleagues?

43:08I think to your point, there's certainly that element, but you also made the point about it being a bit of a PR machine. And so I think that's a lot of it too. You've got a lot of businesses that are represented within those projects and they've got their furnishings and kitchens and whatever else is in there. I know you're constantly bashing the old white kitchen, for example. And so a lot of people are sensitive about that. And I'm sure you've heard that feedback, Dan. Yes? Yes, I've certainly heard feedback and people have taken issue. Some celebrities have taken issue too. But those are only the ones that deserved it, so I don't feel bad.

43:50Well, but I mean, the industry historically hasn't had a great sense of humor. And I think as you and I have talked about in the past, the industry could benefit considerably from sometimes not taking itself quite so seriously. Yeah. I mean, in the end, it's just, you know, it's a table. Well, exactly. Which is great. And there's some amazing people making amazing tables, but the way people discuss it and discuss new furnishings and new products in homes can obviously feel very stuffy, I think. it's interesting to watch the content go viral and people find amusement in it, almost wishing they could somehow be more free about it.

44:43It's like you've tapped into people feeling somewhat, I don't want to say trapped, but they're locked into the business side of it all. Again, understandably so. Yeah, you want to be in the AD100. so you don't want to be critical of a designer. I think for average people who are watching this, it's just kind of mainlined to them in a way and there ends up being this assumption that this is what good taste is and these are the parameters and they're not shown that much outside of it and I can imagine that if you are someone who really cares about design, that would be somewhat maddening. If you're trying to push things forward in any way or do something unique and you just see the same 20 objects reused over and over.

45:40Well, exactly. And you have a whole series of videos that you've done where you call out essentially the most overseen or overexposed business of furniture and the Hermes throat needs to move on. a lot of that yeah bellini sofas and and i have nothing even against these particular pieces but but it creates such a limited i think vocabulary um and understanding of what is what is possible um you know those p those pieces end up losing any of their power because they only begin to function as signifiers of wealth and status and like a predefined notion of good taste. And to me, it feels very, very limiting.

46:29And even just as a viewer of these homes, you know, whenever I live in New York in my shitty shoebox, like so many, and, you know, there's an element of voyeurism that's behind why these videos are so viral, I think, and a mix of envy and awe and fantasy. And so often we're just given these kind of stale and barren visions of what a home can be that don't feel like they go beyond just like, these things were expensive. This home is very big. We paid famous designers and architects to construct it. And yeah, I think we deserve a broader vision. Tell me what informed your thoughts and tell me about growing up for you and what informed your thoughts about design or beyond later spending time in art school.

47:31But tell me when you were younger, how you grew up and how that shaped your thinking. Yeah, I grew up in New York, in Yorkville. I have three brothers. So we were six people in a one bedroom. And it was the least designed. There was not a single thing that was my parents were immigrants and they just did not, there was no thought at all or that apartment could be designed. I don't think we ever had a single thing hung up on the wall. There's mostly futons. My parents slept in the living room. It was just like really pure function. but I think every person born and raised in New York becomes obsessed with real estate because it's so much about what you can do with your little box and oh their little box is a little bit bigger than my little box and you know you would go to you go to parties just to see the apartment I think you're like well the parties can be bad but it might the apartment could be good and I think maybe the first time when I was in in high school I went to a friend's house whose mom was an architect and she redid the home and there's like a sofa there that was like i'd never even conceived that a sofa could be you know it just felt like oh this is this is widely different this is unique um the buttons didn't match later now in retrospect it was a polder sofa um which is um an iconic piece but i mean but something about it it felt much more artistic it wasn't just like a sectional uh or a lazy boy which i feel like is mostly what i had encountered and um it kind of sparked an interest that are that had for me really only been there for for art you know yeah i never i never thought that much about it for for design it was almost kind of just like these are the furnishings this is the chair you know um yeah and then being around architects um in in college and um we shared kind of a work uh the the shop where they would be making up their models and the kind of ambient understanding of all that filtered in and you just slowly begin to hone your eye.

49:39So much of your content seems to be almost a plea to people to explore broader, wider universes, that there's so much more out there and we start repeating things so much. And again, you mentioned algorithms earlier. So often when you talk to designers about their Instagram feed, they will say to you, you know, everyone is just seeing the same stuff over and over again. And so, of course, projects start to look like that because that's what you're fed. And we wonder what can sort of break through that a little bit. And some of these tours in the videos, they almost literally say like, oh, I saw this in another video and I'm doing this now.

50:19And so it's just a feedback loop. And then it just reinforces these ideas. And I guess the design world doesn't really have an equivalent of a gallery. I mean, there are some small galleries, but it doesn't have museums where curators are able to, using their own tastes and judgment, whatever, Whitney Biennial, can show what is really cutting edge or avant-garde or new and that people will, and millions of people go to see new art exhibits every year. There's not that equivalent in the design world. So really all there is and what you're seeing is what's in these videos is what's going viral on Instagram.

50:57And so, yeah, I would definitely say that I'm trying to almost hack the same algorithms and discuss those objects that are ubiquitous. you know the ultra for golem era like those things that you know everyone has seen a million times and then i'm able to use that familiarity as an opportunity to maybe you know especially now before maybe i was just kind of like throwing rocks now i don't think i have a duty but i think i have an opportunity to bring people in um and maybe think about um design and design history and just the breadth of the world through these specific objects or celebrities that people can come in with as a hook.

51:44Well, and the virality of some of the videos that you've made suggests that there is a hunger for this. They long for, to your point, a mirror to be held up and you're a fun, engaging voice for people. And so they're happy enough, even though some of them might feel they're being criticized or they're being judged, right? Because they too are producing that work or what have you and I get it. And I never get the sense that you're mean spirited or that you're doing takedowns. It's all for amusement. No, I want to be better also too. My hope is that it's not just to take someone down a peg. It's to kind of pose the question, can we imagine an alternative or something a bit broader, a bit more exciting, that feels a bit more true to the person?

52:46And there are a lot of, you know, super famous designers that I respect and admire. But I feel like so often you'll see them be hired for a project and then they just have their signature style. And they, you know, they come like Frank Gehry. They come and they put their stamp and their style onto someone's home. And then to me, it's like, well, that seems almost antithetical to the notion of a home. That's nothing to do with you. You know, it's almost like this alien craft that's been forced upon you. And it's exciting to viewers because they're familiar with this style. And it's good for the designer's portfolio because it's another example that people can come to.

53:30But so often it feels antithetical to the notion of what trying to build a home for yourself should be. and if people are looking to these videos and copying the trends and the styles that are coming out of it they're not thinking about design as something that should be a reflection of your own taste your own interests the way you live you know you're just trying to mimic you know how rich and famous people live um and they're now mimicking each other you know well and it seems like in in some of your videos you're you're not you're not always sort of roasting people sometimes you're you're you seem to actually appreciate the what what right what some homes look like yeah yeah it's it's harder to be funny um when you're being positive which i've learned those are much harder videos negativity is is fun um and joy is less less amusing so i still try to But I still think it's important because not only do I not want to just be this page that's just like a hater and my goal isn't just to spread hate.

54:40Although, you know, some hate isn't necessary. I do think I also want to show people like, oh, and highlight like here are actually examples where I feel like someone took a risk or created something that doesn't just look like it's copy and paste. just off the top of my head, like some of the stuff that Pearson Ward has done for like Josh Brolin or I think for Emma Roberts, like those have stood out in terms of the celebrity homes because to me, I can see the person's soul integrated into the home. I don't even need them to be my taste. There are things that I've seen that like I don't look personally, but I can just respect that it feels like someone really went for it.

55:24and opened up the possibilities of what design could be. And yeah, and I hope more celebrities, more wealthy people feel comfortable because if they can't do it, then who can't? Because most of us are not able to afford a complete gut renovation or these high-end Italian pieces. We're stuck with our direct-to-consumer shelves. but at least we can look upon and gaze in awe. I'm wondering the feedback that you have gotten from designers, because as I mentioned, quite a few designers seem to follow you quite regularly. And I'm assuming your DMs get filled up with feedback. Tell me what response has been.

56:14Yeah, people for the most part have been really positive and I think appreciative. And that was honestly a surprise, but also a real joy that that what I was saying and my critiques were resonating with people who really knew what they're talking about and that I was feeling a need and also validated. Like, okay, oh yeah, I'm just a stupid comedian, but maybe I do. I do have some sort of gauge for interesting work and what's lacking and that it's really felt. And if I can kind of speak for people who are a little bit more hemmed in, because I am free, I'm outside, I don't need to have a partnership with Noel or whoever.

56:57I'm a little more free to say the things that I guess they wish they could say. It's a bit actually more stressful now that I know that many designers follow me. And now when I see a new house that I have to review, I'm like, oh, does this designer who did the place, did they do it? And now it has to be a little more, you know, it was a little bit easier when I was ignorant. and I can kind of fire from the hip. And now I'm a little more concerned about hurting people's feelings. And I've gotten a message from some celebrities who are annoyed that I have not yet reviewed their homes. Oh, really?

57:32They're like, come on, it's out there. Come on. Hurry up. What are you waiting for? And then I'm like, well, now I feel really bad.

57:41But yeah, I mean, also I've gotten opportunities now to meet a lot more people in the industry yeah I feel really lucky because people know me even though people know that you might poke fun there are a lot of people who really like I want you to come to my studio and roast it give me your worst it's a fetish roasting fetish just destroy me comedian destroys hot designer and they And they welcome that. They feel all press is good press. Yeah, I think it's an honor. People want to get roasted by Don Rickles. I'm not comparing myself to him, but I think there's an honor. Yeah. And also showing that I can take it and that I kind of – I know what's up.

58:33I'm not so stuffy that I can't take a little ribbing. And I think also if you work in the industry, you know if you're producing something that's of value, that's interesting, or whether you're just doing something that fits the market, which is fine. Make your money. I have no issue. But that's different than really creating interesting work. Yeah. And I love that that's at the center of all of this, is that it's just pushing people to dig deeper in some cases to create more interesting work. As you have shown us, there is a huge opportunity to, again, if nothing else, not take ourselves quite as seriously in the design industry, in the art world, and in all facets of our life.

59:20And so I appreciate that your work drives home that message. And as I say, I'm delighted to get to speak to you and I'm happy to support the effort that you're making. Thanks for having me.

59:38And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, We'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Italy caught my eye. As you know, we've had a lot of struggles here in the U.S. trying to make furniture more sustainably. Well, now a group of Italian furniture companies are coming together to form this consortium with the highly buzzy name of the Extended Producer Responsibility Consortium. Maybe it's a little catchier in Italian, but it's a bunch of furniture companies that are coming together to try and set up, you know, basically a more sustainable supply chain, to set up a more circular arrangement between their respective factories.

1:00:13And I think it's great. I don't know, you know, who knows whether it'll succeed or not, but I do think so often we put the burden of trying to, you know, manufacture more responsibly on one individual company, but without the network of, you know, other partners to supply them and other people to help them sort of handle the burden of actually implementing a lot of the necessary measures. I think you kind of leave companies high and dry and no change really gets made. It needs to be a collective effort. So, you know, I haven't really dug deep on this. I'm looking forward to digging in deeper, but I applaud the Italian companies coming together to do it because I think that's really how it's going to change it, if indeed it does.

1:00:47So bravo, Italy. Yeah, I agree. I hope it resonates. Me too. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? Well, I was thinking that for everyone who might have missed the Ticking Tent event, don't despair because there is another super fun sale coming up, which is the annual Chelsea Textiles warehouse sale that is a who's who of product and designers. And Chelsea Textiles brings in a whole range of bolts of fabric and lighting and other products that other people bring to the sale. And it's a great big sale that this year is happening November 13th and 14th at St. Ignatius Loyola up at 980 Park Avenue.

1:01:30and they're touting their biggest selection ever and 40 to 90 % reductions. And it's always a fun sale and you end up buying more than you really need. Well, that sounds like fun. Exactly. It's worth checking out. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully.

1:02:14Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.