The Thursday Show: Is design media too celebrity-obsessed? Plus: The Ticking Tent heads to Brooklyn

0:07This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on I'll I'll be speaking to Christina Juarez and Ben Reinhart about their new event, The Ticking Tent. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including more fallout from Hurricane Helene, a renovation boom, and what a controversial celebrity home tour says about the state of design media. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicolaus. Hi, Fred. Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Well, pretty good. How you doing? Pretty good myself. Happy 400th episode of the Business of Home podcast.

0:43Holy smokes. Is that right? Wow. I forgot to FedEx you a cake. I apologize. There's still time. Don't worry. And I'll see you. I'll be seeing you at High Point very shortly. Just a quick reminder slash shill for listeners. We'll be doing a live version of the Thursday show on Saturday in Syria's showroom at High Point. So if you're going to be down there, please stop by and watch us try and get through it. I mean, get through it, MasterFeed. Apologies. Exactly. Watch us try and figure out what that's going to be when we do it. It's going to be great. Can't wait. It will be really fun. And we're going to have Satya from Satya Tuari from Surya there with us, as well as potentially a special guest.

1:21So you'll have to show up to find out who that is. In the meantime, though, let's look back on Monday's episode, an interview with Ruggable founder Geneva Bell. Quite the entrepreneur's journey. Quite the harrowing tale of this poor woman slogging away for years. Well, she's not poor. I mean, as we wrote in the descriptions of it, I mean, if you ever thought that Ruggable was an overnight success, let me tell you the 10-year journey of Geneva Bell facing one disappointment after another, but sticking with it in a story of grit and determination. And for everyone who has tried to bring an idea to market, this is a show that you want to listen to.

2:05I have to confess that I was one of those people who thought, oh, Ruggable, that was probably like sprung up in a meeting between a direct consumer entrepreneur and a venture capitalist. And they launched it overnight and spent a billion dollars. It just appeared overnight. But that is very much not the case. It's a very like a real story with a lot of very real setbacks. And frankly, I came away from the conversation really admiring Geneva for her stick-to-itiveness. I mean, to stick to one product for a decade and have it not really work out for most of that decade or not really get the lift off that you're going for and to be in so much debt the entire time.

2:40I mean, it's a real story of what it actually takes to get these things off the ground. And I second your recommendation if you've ever dreamed of launching your own product. I mean, this episode might frankly turn you off, but I think it's a realistic picture of what it actually takes. Well, and also so interesting that, as she points out, turns out that just working really hard isn't enough. Yeah, I love that. And that was an interesting lesson that she shared as well. There was a lot to learn from the conversation. It was the first time she was ever doing a podcast, and so she was a little nervous about it.

3:14And I'm so glad that she could share the story with us. It's a really inspiring tale, and I hope people will listen and enjoy. All right. We're going to take a quick break. And then we'll get into the news.

3:31This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, who's headed to High Point Market with all new rugs, pillows, and wall art. For retailers and designers, and for all styles. Stop by showroom D320 to see introductions from Leloy and Amber Lewis, Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines, Chris Loves Julia, and Rifle Paper Company. Plus newly added one-of-a-kinds and special events with Gene Stouffer and Chris Loves Julia. Visit laloyrugs.com to make both in-person and virtual appointments. That's l-o-l-o-i rugs.com and follow them on Instagram and TikTok at laloyrugs. This podcast is sponsored by Ila Porter, whose mission is to create a little more space in everyone's lives.

4:23Whether your client needs more functional space in their home, or whether you're a designer who needs more breathing room to let your creativity flow, Isla Porter wants to support your business and creativity with its AI-powered platform. The platform manages the technical details of kitchen design, and the result is custom cabinetry made with real American hardwoods, available in more than 20 door styles and 80 finishes, giving you more time, space, and options to create beautiful and functional kitchens for your clients. Let Isla Porter take care of the custom millwork and technical design. Visit islaporter.com to make space for more at islaporter.com.

5:21and we're back first up hurricane helene fred yes almost a month after the deadly storm swept through the southeast we're still learning new details about helene's effect on the industry this week home news now reported that ej victor has delayed production due to flooding in its north carolina facility likely unfortunately until january i was somewhat surprised by this one. How about you, Dennis? I was surprised as well and saddened. I know that EJ Victor has a relatively new CEO that's only been there for about a year, and he's already got a lot on his plate trying to work on some of the marketing efforts and everything else.

5:59And here we are in all the challenges for high point companies that we've talked about at length. And then suddenly, there's two feet of water in the facility and all sorts of inventory damage. And we should talk about what happened there. Yeah. And I mean, I should say a little bit of a may a couple on our part, because a couple, well, a month ago, when we were talking about Hurricane Helene at the time, I hadn't heard that many reports from anyone on the furniture side of the industry, anyone with a big manufacturing facility that they'd been hit particularly hard by Helene. There was power outages and some employees had difficulties, but I never felt like it had really impacted the big manufacturers, but clearly it did.

6:36And it seemed like what happened here is that their facility, which is a little more West had been flooded. And I don't think it destroyed any of their equipment, but it basically destroyed a lot of inventory. And so now, of course, they're behind in making all that inventory that needs to get out the door. So that's why they've hit a pause on doing new production. And it is, frankly, this is affecting designers. I mean, I'm hopeful that some designers and their clients will understand the context around it. This is not just arbitrary delays, but it is having a real impact out there in the industry for sure.

7:06So hopefully they'll be able to pick up speed quickly. Absolutely. And I know, as you say, for many, it's going to feel like, oh, here we go again. What's the new reason for the delay? But I mean, I think hopefully everyone will understand that no one wanted to be in this position and it is terribly unfortunate. And this is, as I say, a company that is trying to take on a great deal. And we wish Mr. Oliver well in getting this back on track. They will be at high point. And so we look forward to seeing them and hopefully supporting them. Yeah, agreed. And I think that it's just a good, I think it's a good reminder just that, you know, the more information that's out there, the better.

7:46I think sometimes companies are not, you know, they're not eager to share like, hey, we're behind in production. But I think it's, you know, in this case, I think it's probably so helpful for designers to explain to their clients why this is happening. It's a good reminder that transparency around stuff like this is a good idea. And as you said, EJ Victor is a really interesting company. They used to produce for Ralph Lauren. I know they work with Alfredo Paredes. They do a lot of high-end stuff. They produce a lot domestically, which is not always the case for a lot of these companies. And so I'm hopeful that this is a temporary bump in the road and that we'll say hi to them at High Point and hope for a better 2025.

8:18Absolutely. And as you say, I mean, the Alfredo Paredes introductions are one of the things I often look most forward two at High Point. It's a pretty chic collection. And so I'm hoping that soon everything will be resolved. Moving on, we're going to talk about a remodeling boom. This week, the Wall Street Journal reported on some encouraging signs in the world of home renovation. According to a Harvard study, annual spending on repair and remodeling is projected to reach$477 billion this time next year, which is near an all-time high. Big numbers, Fred. What do you think? Yeah, well, I feel like we've been talking, once again, we called it Wall Street Journal, catch up.

8:59No, I mean, it's sort of an interesting thing. The way that the journal framed this story is sort of interesting because they talked about how we're coming out of what they referred to as a home renovation slump, which is sort of interesting because home renovation spending has been on this up and to the right trajectory ever since the economy recovered from 2008. And so the highest year on record was 2023, not that long ago. It's just that, you know, the way that home renovations are funded often is that people refinance their home and use that money to, you know, to fund a renovation project.

9:30And because interest rates have been going up so high, people have been a little bit gun shy about taking out a new loan. And so that kind of stalls out the market for renovations. But the fundamental demand is very much there. And now that the Fed has decided to cut rates, you know, people are clearly spending and the signs are there. What we certainly know is that many existing homes were not being put on the market. So many people are still locked in to these very low interest rates. And that is a situation that is going to continue for quite a while, which is why it's very important to rethink a little bit how designers are thinking about remodeling versus their client perhaps selling their home.

10:14and looking at this in a different way. Because I think this market is going to be very much driven by people figuring out clever ways to take money out of their home and spend it in a different way. Right. I mean, that's such a good point. I mean, housing prices are at an all-time crazy high. Home equity is$35 trillion, which is up almost 100 % since 2019. And that's a lot of money that people are going to deploy. They're going to refinance, And then they take some of that value out and put it towards improving their home. Because as you said, they're not going to move on, or at least some of them are not going to move on to a mortgage that is in some cases double, even though that number is trickling downwards.

10:55And the point about designers is exactly the right one. I think a lot of, you know, there's going to be new homes built. People are going to move. Yes. But I do think there is a huge, there's going to be a huge growth and renovations in those kinds of projects. And I think designers would be well advised to think about their business less in how can I help my clients relocate? How can I help my clients build a new home and more? How can I help my clients, you know, make the most out of a renovation project? And how can I make that a profitable project for me? You know, some people are already set up that way.

11:23But if you're not, now's a good time to figure it out. No, I agree. And I think that this is going to move slowly. So I think there's plenty of time to really think about that model that designers want to create for this. Many people are waiting on the sidelines. and there are big opportunities in just recognizing that people have a lot of money saved up in their homes and designers should get a piece of that, Fred, I think. Yes, I agree. Wholeheartedly agree. Okay, next up, let's revisit the world of engineered stone, shall we, Fred? Yes. A few weeks ago, we talked about a wave of silicosis cases and the lawsuits that followed.

12:00This week, the LA Times has a slightly more optimistic take about how companies like Cosentino and Caesarstone are looking to develop safer product. Knock on wood, this is potentially, again, a more optimistic development in this rather depressing story. What do you think? Well, exactly. Safer product, question mark? I mean, that seemed to be sort of the tone a little bit. Yes? Yeah. Yeah. I think we can sort of get into that in a little bit. I mean, I think, again, I'm sure people are relatively aware of what we're talking about here, but engineered Stone, quartz countertops, when you cut them in unsafe conditions, workers can develop this horrible disease called silicosis.

12:37And there's a lot of lawsuits and questions about regulation around this. And a lot of these companies that have gotten, frankly, quite rich off this boom. I mean, Engineered Stone is a$25 billion global business. They're looking to find a way to get ahead of this crisis and develop a product that's ideally safer for people to cut. I mean, one thing before we even get into that, that just sort of jumped out at me from this story is that the The reporter talked to a contractor in LA and the guy said, in all my years doing projects, I have never, ever heard anyone mention, oh, the danger of quartz.

13:08And the one person who did was a client from Australia where quartz is illegal or like high silica quartz is illegal. That really jumped out to me and explained why this problem is so intractable. Well, exactly. And it's been interesting that so many people have shared these stories with us wanting more to get out there about how serious this is. And I'm glad that we've been talking about this because it is such a serious issue. And as we talked about a couple of weeks back, it's affecting a population that often doesn't have a strong voice or strong backers behind them. And through these lawsuits, we're just learning so much more about how terribly frightening and debilitating these issues are around silicosis.

13:55And people need to be aware of this. And I want the marketplace to do what it does and correct this situation. Cosentino has a line that has something like 40 percent or less silica or 10 percent or less silica. Classic Quartz has like 90 percent or more. And Caesars Stone has a line that's allegedly less than 1 percent silica. So, you know, it was interesting. You know, the reporter spoke to several scientists and I think a lot of them, to be fair, were pretty optimistic. They were saying, look, this seems to be safer than what's on the market today. But, you know, the danger, you know, whenever you have a chemical or a product that is harmful in some way is that companies rush to try and replace it with something else because they obviously don't want to be, you know, regulated or sued out of existence.

14:38But because they're getting a new product out into the marketplace, it's not always clear that the new one is so much safer than the last one or that you're not introducing some new problem. You know, this data is not all out there yet. So I don't know. It was interesting. Exactly. I mean, and that was very much what I got from hearing these scientists. They've sort of suggested, well, actually, now that we're paying a lot more attention to this product, what else is the problem with all of this? And that certainly seemed to be one of the risks of all of this getting so much attention, even though many are trying to improve the product.

15:11Is it something that can really be improved enough? And that's the concern. Sure. Ironically enough, I think that gets to what these companies have wanted, which is harsher regulations on the shops that cut the stone. Because I think their point is that if these workshops were operating safely, then we wouldn't be having these problems to begin with. But maybe it's not an either or here. Maybe we need regulations around workshops. We need a safer product. We just need more attention, more ideas. And I think it's right to put a lot of scrutiny on these companies for this issue. but I am also hopeful and feeling optimistic that they will produce something that's safer because it does create jobs and opportunities.

15:49I hope they can figure it out. Absolutely. And clearly, it's a highly desirable product. So the question is, can this daylight that's being shown upon this whole issue force the changes that are necessary here? And can a safer product and a safer process come out of this? I hope so. As I say, I'm glad we're talking about it because as you raised the point earlier, So many people just still aren't aware of this issue, and it is very important. Up next, design media. This week, Fred, you turned your attention to Architectural Digest, where a tour of reality star Yolanda Hadid's home sparked a wave of snarky commentary online.

16:30What can you tell us? Did you catch this one when it hit the website last month, Dennis? Didn't catch it at first, but like you, I had some people send it to me, and it was a lot of heated discussion over this. Yeah, so I mean, just to sort of set the stage here. So, you know, as we've been talking about, A.D. published the home or the Texas ranch home of Yolanda Hadid, who, if you're not familiar with, was a star on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills and is the mother of Gigi and Bella Hadid. someone who's not really my my pop culture wheelhouse is a lot nerdier so I was not super aware of her comings and goings but this you know that that's who she is and when ad published her home I guess her Texas ranch house there was there was a lot of snarky commentary about it on their Instagram page and kind of what got me into it is that a couple people sent me a link to this project and it was they sent it to me for totally different reasons one person was like, oh, this is an example of how AD is so celebrity obsessed and design media only wants to publish you if you have a famous client.

17:31And another person was like, this is horrible. These comments are completely cruel. What's wrong with America? So it seemed to be sort of a flashpoint and generating a lot of opinions. And so I went meandering in search of some opinions on this particular project that popped up. Well, and I mean, in the piece, at first you were talking about is AD or is design media in general celebrity obsessed or any more celebrity obsessed than they have always been? What did you find? Well, I kind of want to turn the question back on you because full disclosure for listeners, you're the lovely Mrs. Gulley used to work at AD and you've got slightly longer in the tooth in the design media world and by only a few years.

18:16What's your take on this? First of all, is it true? And B, have people always been complaining about this. What do you think? Well, I mean, it's interesting. And you referenced Paige Renz, the former editor-in-chief in your piece. And listen, Paige Renz, back in the day, who was the very powerful editor-in-chief of Architectural Digest back in the day when I think editors had a lot more power and authority than they do today, she was very calculating about the use of celebrity coverage. And there may have been eight or nine homes of Cher that she put on the cover. And she said, yes, if Cher has another house, I will absolutely publish that too, because that sells on the newsstand and that helps to pay the bills.

19:03But as you and I were talking about recently, the difference at that time was that Architectural Digest was probably about three times as thick as it is now. And so there were a lot of other projects in there from the greats of the day that would sort of balance out this mix. And I think part of why this feels so extreme today is it's a much thinner magazine with a different kind of group of celebrities that are often on the cover. And so it feels very different than it did in those days. And I will also point out, Page Rents and Architectural Digest for years did the Hollywood at Home issue, and those were among the most popular issues.

19:45But they were often done with a, oh, look, here's an old timey movie star from the golden age of Hollywood kind of thing. And so the coverage was just very different. Yeah, it's interesting to go through some of those old issues. I do think it is a little bit of a fallacy, the idea that there was this golden age where Architectural Digest did not care at all about celebrity. Because I was doing a little archive digging. And I was like, what's the first time they published? Even in the 20s, they published the home of Zeppo Marx and Buster Keaton. So it's not like AD has never published celebrities or never relied on star power to drive the business side.

20:23And as you pointed out, it was just in the 70s and 80s, there was sort of this kind of elite intellectual sheen. It was like Gore Vidal's house and Edward Kennedy's house. And, you know, now, you know, honestly, the magazine is a little bit more like populist. It's like, you know, celebrity athletes, celebrities from music and TV. And so I do think to some degree, it's maybe less about the volume of celebrities, but the kinds of celebrities who are in AD, which is, you know, another wrinkle. And what I actually think is sort of a complicated, complicated story. It's, it's not as simple as, oh, AD is just obsessed with celebrities.

20:57That's all there is to it. Oh, and A, social media didn't exist when Paige Rents was the editor-in-chief, and they weren't doing video house tours. So the whole package now of the way these projects are rolled out on Instagram, on YouTube, then they're on the cover. There's a whole parade of different media that comes out about these projects, and you see and hear this person in a very different way than you did in the past when they were just on the pages of the magazine. Yeah, I think that's such a good point. And I mean, I think social media just changes so much about that balance that you could maybe cultivate in the 70s and 80s.

21:36You know, it's even the way that like Instagram distributes content is affects this conversation so much. Because if you look at 80s Instagram feed, they publish a lot of stuff. They publish like a profile of Sigmund Freud's home. I mean, how more intellectual and high minded do you want to get? But, you know, Instagram rewards engagement and likes and clicks and all that. And so, you know, of course, the celebrities get a lot of likes and clicks. And so Instagram delivers that to people who follow AD's account more. And so if you're just sort of casually looking at it, you may come away with the impression that AD only publishes celebrity homes because that's all you're seeing on your Instagram feed.

22:09And maybe you don't get around to reading your issue this month. And so there's all these different ways that, you know, Instagram kind of scrambles, you know, you know, what has historically been kind of a relatively stable, you know, balance between celebrities and the idea around, you know, producing a very high minded design publication that it's just it's complicated, you know. And of course, I understand, you know, why designers are somewhat upset and annoyed by this because, you know, every celebrity project that's, you know, a reality star who designed their own ranch house. That's a slot that a designer doesn't get that a working designer doesn't get.

22:42And I think a lot of people perceive publications like AD as being about the design industry, about celebrating the creativity and talent. And of course, it still is. It's just a difficult time in media and design media in particular. And so I kind of went into the story thinking, OK, this is going to be sort of a funny thing about this reality star and ha ha. But it's complicated. And I'm, of course, sympathetic to everyone in this equation. It's a weird moment in media. Absolutely. And as we said, celebrity coverage has always helped to pay bills, period. That has been forever thus. And it just seems more extreme today.

23:22And in part because, as we've talked about, it just it comes at you in a very different way than it used to in the past. Yeah. And the other thing that's kind of weirdly new and frankly, a little depressing is these comments. And, you know, I mean, I think like, you know, certainly many people who sent me this project took some schadenfreude style joy over, oh, here's this real housewife celebrity and look at all these funny comments. And like these comments are funny, but there is also kind of like a cruelty to the discourse on social media. And it's not always a celebrity who's getting roasted.

23:54You know, I was talking to a few editors at design publications and several of them brought up stories about, yeah, this happens and it's not always a famous person. And it's just like, I don't know. I left the piece thinking, I don't know what to do about this because none of these publications have an incentive to turn off comments. Like, why turn off engagement? That's what the platforms want. But it does seem like it sort of coarsens the dialogue around design in a way that's a little unfortunate. No, I agree. And the anonymity gives people the freedom to speak in a way that they wouldn't were they speaking directly to that person.

24:27And so I'm so glad that you wrote about the tone and how people, I mean, great to have a laugh. And listen, this project is hardly the best work that's ever been shown in Architectural Digest, to be sure. But there's a way to kind of have a laugh and then a way to tip over into being hurtful, cruel and unkind. And that certainly happened in more than one occasion in the thousands of comments that were both on Instagram and on YouTube. And if you thought that people got worked up about that project, Fred, let's talk about overhead lighting, shall we? They also get pretty worked up about this. And even more controversial subjects.

25:07So this week for The Washington Post, Rachel Kershis, former guest of the show, took a look up at the ceiling for a deep dive into why celebrities, influencers, designers, and just about everyone seems to have a problem with overhead lighting. And Dennis, I understand you've taken to Instagram to do a little listener poll. What do people think? What do designers think about overhead lighting? You put it up and within moments, people say, oh, my God, hate it. It ought to be banned. Why is it even still exist? And Anne McDonald said, yes, it's just you got to you got to get rid of those strong, harsh overhead lights.