The Thursday Show: Is your client getting a second opinion from ChatGPT? Plus: Publicist-turned-gallerist Michael McGraw on his new venture

25:21And I don't think there will, I don't think everybody can be walking around with chat GPT on their shoulders, you know, as they're walking the job site. But it is like a period where we're having to sort of deal with this. And I think designers are largely just telling me like, oh, I just have to sort of prove it. You know, like if the client says they really want the kitchen island to go this way because ChatGPT said so, they have to be like, okay, well, let's sit down and explain how this is going to not let you get your refrigerator. So we can't do that. So maybe it's for now, it's maybe just more of a waste of time than anything, but it's out there.

25:52It's happening. It is. And I think your point about Google and how many transformations were brought about as a result of that search engine. And in terms of pricing transparency, in terms of what people were able to discover about product availability, and I think it's easy to imagine that we're going to have exponentially more issues with AI going forward. So I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, and we're going to be talking about this a lot more. So brace yourselves, people, for that. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about the 1%, Fred. For Town & Country last week, Tim Teeman examined a growing trend among the uber-wealthy who are now showcasing their extravagant lifestyles on social media.

26:34Is loud luxury the new quiet luxury, Dennis? What do you think? What do you think of that headline? I love it. They're going to wish they had used that over at Town & Country, Fred. Sorry, Staline. But I hope that this isn't the case. I hope loud luxury is not coming to social media near you, but I sense it is. So this article is it's interesting. It talks about this phenomenon, sort of like a new class of influencer or sort of maybe change in sort of the culture around wealth. It's sort of both things. But I think, you know, historically, there's been this sense of, you know, among the super affluent, you only want to show up in the newspaper if you're born, married or died, I think is the saying.

27:15But now I think that social media, you know, has made it so a lot of very wealthy people are sharing their lifestyles much more openly. I think in some cases, there is kind of like a deliberate flaunting element. In other cases, it's simply just not hiding the way that they might have in the past. It's not so much that they're flaunting their wealth, it's just that they're showing their lives and they live very extravagant, wealthy lives. And it's kind of like a cultural change. Now, I mean, Dennis, do you think this is like a real thing? Is this just a fun trend story to gawk at or has the culture around wealth really changed?

27:46It's a great question. I think there are many elements around wealth and people feeling much more comfortable than perhaps a previous generation did in both talking about it and showing it. And I do think that there is, particularly in huge swaths of the country, there's just a different way that people live and show how they live and want to share that. And you can find fault with that or not. But I do think that that is taking hold. I do think, however, when you talk to a lot of high-end designers, the consensus still seems to be that for the most part, you have to coax a lot of people to really share a project or many people still want to be very private.

28:32Again, for security reasons or for privacy reasons, whatever it is, I think people have a lot of incentives to not necessarily let people know. But I think more people are comfortable sharing it than ever before. And is it the decline of Western civilization, Fred? I don't know. I don't want to weigh in on that one here. But, yeah, it's kind of like a tale of two cities, right? Because I think on the one hand, a lot of designers are saying it's harder than ever to get their clients permission to photograph their homes. Because I think people are aware of how much those images can travel. They can be everywhere all over the world in one second.

29:05So that's kind of a thing. But on the other hand, if you want to, it's easier than ever to do that. And so it kind of bifurcates people along those lines. I think back to 2008 when there was this horrible recession, affected so many people in the country. But the uber wealthy still had plenty of money. And there was almost a, you know, a sort of culture in the very high end of the design industry where it was like, okay, we're still kind of working here, but we don't want to talk about that in a big way. And there was a little bit of a pullback around the way that, you know, the, the Uber 1 % of designers were talking about their work.

29:38Now I don't, I don't really feel that that's the case. I feel that there isn't any stigma around that. And, you know, I feel like on some level, even though I don't think, you know, income inequality is a great thing. I think that people being more open about how their lives look and especially the wealthy people who drive this industry is not necessarily a bad thing for designers, right? That's the question. I mean, is it a bad thing for designers? I don't think so. I think designers would love if more of their clients were willing to share their work, right? Yeah. I think you talk to a lot of designers who say, most of my projects you'll never see.

30:11Yeah. Because, right? And I can't remember if it was Alexa Hampton who brought up the idea of just having a group where everyone could just look at phone images of projects, things that could never be published. Tablets. And you just got together. Exactly. So, I mean, I think it's interesting. all of these home tours and home worthy and so much of the of the coverage that we're seeing online everywhere of people taking you through there seems to be much more willingness somehow to to do some of that but i don't know what it all means listen the the industry the industry needs the uber wealthy in a huge way it's it's it's what so many of these companies are in business for and to serve.

30:53So I think if more people are willing to show it off, perhaps it'll be great for designers and vendors, and perhaps more of the word will get out there. Look at me trying to put a positive spin on this, Fred, even though I'm against the whole thing. Your waspy heart is crying right now. Exactly. Well, I was just raised, you didn't talk about money, darn it. So it's hard for me, but I want it to be good for the industry. So if I need to support this idea, I guess, I guess I will. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including all the smart home tech that debuted at CES and the latest showroom openings.

31:31We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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32:54And we're back. I'm joined now by prominent New York City publicist Michael McGraw, who's got a new endeavor that we're going to talk about. Michael, welcome to the show. Thank you, Mr. Scully. I'm so thrilled to be here. I'm delighted to have you. And as you and I were talking about before we came on air, you and I are usually prepping one of your clients to come on the show. Today, it's you. I hope you're not feeling in the hot seat, Michael. I am totally feeling in the hot seat. This is a position I'm not ever in. It's fun to be on the other side for a minute. Well, I'm delighted to have you.

33:30And we should tell people about your career in PR and tell us about how you even came into doing publicity and public relations. Well, how much time do we have? Tell us your life story, Michael. Well, I had a somewhat unconventional introduction to the world of PR. I actually started right out of college working for PETA, the animal rights group, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. And they were based in the D.C. area at the time. I'm from DC originally, and I was the director of celebrity media campaigns. All of those rather go naked than wear fur ads with people like Pamela Anderson and Anna Nicole Smith and a lot of celebrities.

34:16It was the mid and late 90s. It was a very fun time to be there. From there, I decided I wanted a little change of pace, and I went to work for an amazing company called La Force and Stevens, which is now simply La Force. James LaForce was a huge mentor to me, along with Dan Matthews at PETA. It was such a great experience. I actually did two tours of duty at LaForce, as well as two tours of duty at PETA. I kind of bounced back and forth a couple of times. And I did that until 2011 when I started McGraw PR. And incredibly, going into my 15th year of my own agency this summer, which is crazy to think about.

35:01But it's been a great ride so far. And did you imagine a particular focus when you started your own firm? Was there an area that you wanted to specialize in or how were you thinking about it? 100 % design from the very beginning. At La Force, I had started on some fashion clients but quickly found my niche working in design. And at the same time, I met my future husband, David Duncan, who is a longtime mainstay of the New York design scene with an antiques and lighting store. And I'd always had a passion for design, but he really helped me discover a lot about design, especially historically. and during my second stint at La Force I was entirely on the design side and my clients included everyone from the Kips Bay Show House to Restoration Hardware we actually did the the press for the the very first the big RH store at Flatiron and that was just a gargantuan project um so fun to work on I mean that was really as they were about to skyrocket and um I've really enjoyed i follow actually very closely business of homes coverage of rh earnings and um it's a it's a pretty constant subject here it is it is but i find you know they're so influential and whatever you may think of that you know there are a lot of different opinions but i i really i i think a lot of him i i think he's brilliant and in in my second stint at la force i was all design and worked with some great tabletop brands.

36:43Kipps Bay, I worked on three show, well, two and a half show houses, technically. One show house, it was the first time it actually fell through. We were at the pre-renovation party. All of the designers were there in their unrenovated spaces to greet people and sort of tell their vision for the spaces they were going to be decorating. And we found out at that party that the house had been sold. And the owner broke the contract with Kipps Bay and sold the house. And it was actually, I think, a really great experience. So you did a great many things over the years, it sounds like. And all the while, you mentioned your husband, David, and the tremendous influence he was having on you.

37:27Was he part of planting the seed for your interest in what you are now engaged in? I think that would be a fair characterization. I mean, I've watched him build his business. He has an incredible clientele of A-list designers who have come to him for his expert eye in antiques. And I've seen how he has evolved as the tastes have changed for antiques. So seeing him build a successful to-the-trade business over so many years, And I've certainly learned a lot from him about the sort of the back end and how to run a business. So absolutely, he's been an inspiration in starting my gallery. But you've worked very closely with a lot of prominent designers.

38:18And I wonder, and we should explain about your gallery and exactly what it is and tell people the name and all of that. But I wonder, did some of the many designers that you've worked with over the years also give you insight to their passions around collecting and art and what influence that had on you as well? I'm curious. Absolutely. In my PR business, it has been such an honor to represent so many incredibly talented and very creative designers. And in the years that I have been doing design PR, I feel like I've just been vacuuming up what they do, how they source, the pieces that they're drawn to.

39:02And I think that this is a little bit of a point of differentiation for me. I mean, obviously, New York is filled with design galleries. I think all of them are valuable. They all have a distinct point of view. There are many that I really, really like. In my new role as a gallerist, I think what I bring to the conversation is an editorial background. I have spent years reviewing countless design projects and really studying what works, what gets published, and what gets passed over. And in fact, as an example, when I first started working with Jamie Drake, I was on one of my first shoots with him, a magazine shoot.

39:49And he used an incredible chair by a designer I had never heard of before, based in the UK. His name is Julian Mayor. And I was just so fascinated by this piece of furniture. And that was literally the first thing I set aside in my mind and then bookmarked on my computer. someday if I ever have a gallery I want to track down Julian Mayer and try to represent some of his work and he was one of the first people I reached out to for my gallery and he said yes immediately and it just it was sort of a total full circle moment sure to first have learned about this amazingly talented artist from one of my clients and thrilled to have his work in the show.

40:32Well, as you mentioned, you just opened the gallery and are running your first exhibition, it sounds like. So tell us about it. Tell us the name of the gallery and where it is and some of the details so that people can follow along. Well, the gallery is called Dernier Cree, which means literally, the French translation is Last Cry, which I love because it's kind of romantic and has a little bit of a dark edge, which is very neat. But in common usage in French, it means the latest thing. That's how it's used in conversation. And so we're on 60th Street, between second and third. And the first exhibition, which opened last week, is called Night Shift.

41:21And I really wanted to focus on all of this talent, these designers and artists that I have been screenshotting and bookmarking for years. I started with my very favorite ones. And their aesthetics are really quite disparate, from textiles to ceramics to woodworking, furniture, rubber, all different kinds of material. And I was thinking about how to unify them into a cohesive presentation. and I have always loved the color black. And I thought, well, you know, some of these artists, they work in black, but some of their work is quite colorful. Maybe I can challenge them to commission them to create works all in black for this first show.

42:14I thought limiting the palette to a single hue would be a way to unify some very disparate pieces of furniture and works of art And it was so exciting to see everyone sort of take on the challenge and watch along as they kind of got out of their comfort zones a little bit in some cases and created some really, really beautiful pieces. How long have you really been thinking, okay, I'm really going to open a gallery? I'm really going to, as you and I were talking about earlier, I'm going to diversify my firm and some of my focus and really make this a reality rather than me just saving all these screenshots over the years?

42:57It started in 2021, actually. We were still in the throes of pretty early COVID. And I think everybody, in some way, shape or form, was sort of kind of rethinking what they wanted to do and what they're capable of and what the future held. And in the past several years, I've gone from, oh, we'll get to that later. Or, you know, there will be time for that later. And the older you get, you realize the future is now and I'm not getting any younger. What are you waiting for? And so it was really last spring that I decided, you know, the future is now and I'm going to do this. My PR business is going really well.

43:38What's missing is a bricks and mortar location where I can introduce design talent in a different way in a physical space. And then from there, it was really about figuring out logistics. We have work from artists and designers in Europe throughout the United States and shipping in the time of ever changing tariffs. And that whole process of importation and getting things from point A to point B is a real talent to figure it out and how to do it well. I was curious about that, and I'm glad you mentioned it. I was curious about even the dynamics of, so these pieces are coming over, but they're not yet sold.

44:24So there isn't necessarily a transaction to stamp a tariff on, or is it tariffed simply by coming into the country? Remarkably, it is tariffed simply coming into the country. And the tariffs have been so damaging to the American design world. world. I mean, there's not an interior designer or architect who hasn't been tremendously impacted by tariffs. And, you know, we are a global economy and the design world is a global entity. And most designers love to travel the world and find inspiration from people doing different things in different places. And they bring that back. And, you know, the best design incorporates elements from all over the place.

45:19And a lot of gallerists try to bring to their clientele a mixture and show them pieces that they may not have had access to otherwise. So to deal with the tariffs that are ever-changing, and it is unfortunate, but we're learning to deal with it, and it is what it is. But yes, to answer your question, the tariffs get paid, whether the work gets sold or not. If work doesn't get sold and goes back to the designer in Europe, do I ever get the tariff back? Probably not. I don't know. No. Well, you'll cross that bridge when you come to it, I suppose. Hopefully, things will get sold. And is everything just on a sort of commission basis for you, or how have you set that up?

46:03That's exactly right. Yes. So everything is on a commission basis. We handle the transactions with the designers and then the artists and designers whose work we're representing, then they get the commission from the sale. And to your earlier point about learning so much from so many of your clients and seeing how they collect and think about that, do you see a bridge to this gallery and the world that you work in in PR? And do you feel in a way it even better informs you about everything that might be going on for your clients? That's a really great question. I really think of myself as a designer's gallerist.

46:53I was really struck by and inspired by an interview that I listened to with Amy Astley from Architectural Digest a while back where someone asked her, what does it take to get published in AD? How do we get in interior pages? And she said, we are looking for interiors that look like they could have been designed for no one other than that homeowner. They have that much personalization. And I've really taken that to heart, both in my PR business and talking to my designer and architect clients and the projects that we're presenting to magazines, and also to the artists and designers that we're working with for the gallery.

47:38And for Dernier Cree, I'm really searching for work that is very unique, that looks like it could only have been created by that designer, by that artist. They're really bringing something unique to the conversation. Well, and does that speak to this world of collectible design that we've seen emerge in a huge way in recent years? And help me understand it better. What is collectible design and how should we think of it? How do we identify it when we see it? I mean, you tell me, you know what, it's a lot of people in this industry kind of view collectible design as a bad word, well, a bad phrase.

48:24In fact, when I was sort of germinating this idea of opening a gallery and talking to friends in the industry, and, you know, that term would come up and And they say, oh, well, you can't use that. It's not collectible design. You have to think of another way to message that. But at the end of the day, whatever your thoughts are about collectible design, it's shorthand that everybody the world over uses and understands. And you can create a narrative around what you're doing with more flowery language. but some of the biggest galleries or best galleries that I have so much respect for, they use the term collectible design.

49:09And I think sort of the commonly accepted definition is design. Well, collectible design kind of goes hand in hand with functional art. And it's design that is handmade, super unique. Functional art means it may be a sculpture, but you could also sit on it. or it has some other purpose where you can use it. It's a piece of art that is usable in some way. And maybe collectible design too connotes something that has perhaps a bit more permanence than something that you might buy from a retailer where it looks great today, might look great for another couple of years, but you might get tired of it after that.

49:56I mean, interior design at the end of the day is very ephemeral. Collectible design, I think the beauty of a lot of these pieces is that they defy a certain time period. They're uniquely artistic and hopefully have some permanence. And they're pieces that when clients invest in them, they will carry with them to their next homes. And do you imagine to that point, Michael, I'm so curious because, and recently I had Nicole Hollison to the New York School of Interior Design to talk with me and her work is so impressive and the artists that she works with and the things that are created for her projects are just on such an enormous scale.

50:40And I wonder, do you imagine the pieces that you show at the gallery as just being perhaps a jumping off point for a designer, perhaps working with the artist who's showing a piece as saying, sure, this artist can do this, but they can also do anything you want if you want to collaborate on a project and you can facilitate that. Do you imagine that being part of where this goes? Absolutely. I think many of the designers that we work with have very clear ideas of what they want, how they want to compose an interior. And so, for example, in our gallery, they may see a sculpture and think it could be perfect for a living room they're working on, but it needs to scale up a little bit.

51:28Maybe the finish could be a little bit brighter, a little bit darker. and everyone we're working with can customize their designs to fit designer specifications. So in a sense, what we have in the gallery, it's all available for sale, but in a way, there are also samples of what the artists and designers can create. Yeah. In the classic designer, I love you, now change way. You're perfect, now change. Yes. I wouldn't change a thing except, well, everything. Yeah. But I love it and I can't wait to have it be part of my project. Well, this is so exciting, Michael, that you've taken this on. And I know that it comes at a time, as you and I were talking about, where the PR and media world is changing so rapidly.

52:23And we both have many friends in the industry who are trying to figure out what best advice to give clients these days and where to focus. It's interesting that you mentioned Amy Astley being asked, as I'm sure she is constantly, how do you get published and all of that. And so many editors and designers talk about how much even the significance of that has changed and that that isn't as much of a focus as it once was. And there are so many other ways of making a meaningful connection with would-be clients or people, social media certainly being one of them. But tell me how you're thinking about all of this and what you're advising clients is worth focusing on today and in light of just how much has changed just in the last few years.

53:18It's been interesting to watch from this side how much the media landscape really has changed. And a big part of our job is keeping up with these changes, figuring out what editors are looking for. The magazine landscape, for example, has really gone through a lot of evolution in the past five to ten years. Many magazines have closed. but the ones that we have in many cases have reduced frequency. There aren't many magazines that still publish 12 issues a year, for example. So that means fewer opportunities for products to be featured, fewer opportunities for projects to be featured. At the same time, a lot has moved online.

54:02And I'd say one big difference is that the distinction between being published in print or online, that line has been erased largely. which is great because when you have been published by L decor or published by AD or published by gallery or any of the many magazines that we love, whether it's digital or print, you have been published by that media property and you can always say that you were published by them. I think too, as frequency has been reduced, but at some magazines, there are fewer issues. It makes the projects that do stick, that do get published in print or online, that much more special, that much more of an accomplishment.

54:44Because even the digital properties of these magazines, it's not like they're publishing five projects online a day. It's actually very few in the course of a month. So it's extremely competitive to get something published digitally or on the print side. And it makes it that much more of an accomplishment when you do land that. I wonder, Michael, the success rate or the hit rate with so many things that used to work seems to have changed quite a bit. And I wonder what used to work that really doesn't anymore and what's taken its place. I mean, we often have this conversation about designers getting in front of the camera and becoming more of a personality and getting on reels and putting themselves out there more.

55:31But you've worked with many clients for whom that's not a high comfort zone for them, right? And that's not their forte. And so I wonder what else works for people that they can focus on instead. You're right. It's something that doesn't come naturally to some people. For others, it does. And it's a conversation we have with all of our clients on an ongoing basis. Of course, I don't take any of my own advice. I've never posted a video of myself talking on social media, But the algorithms prefer people over static interior images. They prefer people talking. They prefer videos. So it's not just people, but people on video.

56:14That's the content that will perform the most. That is the content that will get pushed forward on Instagram. And another huge part that I think a lot of people overlook is the engagement. and we manage the social media accounts for a couple of our PR clients. And engagement is super time consuming, but so important because you can have the most beautiful feed, the greatest content. But if you're not engaging with other accounts who follow you, they may never see your content to bother to click like on it because the algorithms just push that down when your account isn't liking and not just liking, but commenting on, you know, it wants to see a genuine tie between your account and another account.

57:00And that's how you build more traction. So doing this is often kind of the last thing that a lot of our clients want to think about doing. They're so busy running their businesses and designing these incredible homes, but it is important. And a lot of our designers get new business leads from social media. And it's a great way of marketing seems like tiktok has gotten the reprieve i can't really tell if our industry has moved on to tiktok in a meaningful way i think some people have found success there but i don't sense that a huge swath of the design industry is is there quite yet it kind of reached peak tiktok for me when we got a query from a digital editor wondering if we had a designer who could weigh in on tomato girl summer uh which i'm still not really sure what tomato girl loving the micro trends yeah yeah so um but they do entire roundups on these tiktok micro trends and um you can't blame them i mean on the digital side of these media properties it's all about traffic and that has actually tapered off a little bit in the past like four to six months i think 2025 was peak tiktok trend we'll see where it goes this year it's an interesting landscape and and and a challenging one.

58:19So it sounds as though you feel like people need to, as much as they may resist, they need to get in front of the camera more. It sounds like the advice that even you might have to take soon. They need to get in front of the camera, talk to the camera, tell their followers what they have going on. It's amazing. I think some of the most successful social media content producers talk about the minutia of their lives and people can't get enough of that and doesn't seem to be going anywhere. And it's something that all of us, including myself, need to get a lot more comfortable with. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's an important message for all of us.

59:01I too need to get more comfortable with that, Michael. So don't think that I'm not feeling the pressure as well. Maybe we can do it together. We'll do one of these together. I would love that. In the meantime, I'm thrilled about the gallery. I'm so happy for you and excited that this has gotten off the ground. And I really appreciate you coming on and talking to me about it. Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here.

59:27And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? I didn't want to do this, Dennis, but I'm going to bring up tariffs again. I'm very, very sorry to the people who stuck around for this part. But we're going to talk tariffs just for a minute. We talked, I think a few months ago about this phenomenon of companies preemptively suing the United States government, because the idea is if the Supreme Court rules that all these tariffs are actually illegal, there's going to be a big scramble to try and get a refund on all the tariff money that you've been paying.

59:59And so a lot of companies like Costco and Revlon have sued the US government trying to get first in line to get that money just in case the Supreme Court goes their way. And surprisingly, there haven't been that many home companies who have done this. But I found out recently that, you know, late last December, McGee & Co., you know, Sid and Shay McGee's sort of retail brand, was one of the many companies who are, you know, suing the U.S. government to try and get a tariff refund. So it is happening at all levels, really big companies, people who have, even people who have been on the Business of Home podcast are participating in this, in this rush.

1:00:31So, you know, I mean, I have no idea whether it'll be successful. It, of course, depends on what's going to happen with, you know, the Supreme court, but it was interesting just to dig into that lawsuit, and I wrote a quick story about it for BUH. So if you want to read more about tariffs, check that out. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? A couple things caught my eye. One, some big news coming out of Britain. Veer Grenny, a former guest on the show and many people's favorite designer, has announced that he's putting another name on the door of the firm. Firm Granny Gregg, his longtime partner Natasha Gregg, will now be elevated to having her name on the door and being a full partner in the firm.

1:01:11And I'm excited for them. I think there's a lot going on for Veer these days, so I'm eager to have him back and have a chat. But I'm excited for both of them. That's big news. And I feel like this is a trend, some people being elevated and some extra names being put on the door. So I think that's great because we've often talked about how firms struggle with what comes next. So I'm pleased to see a plan in place at this firm that I have long admired. The other thing that we wrote about and some big news coming out, Mitchell Gold has wrapped up his time with Syria and Mitchell Gold and has hung out a shingle doing some consulting through a firm, Hindsight Forward, where he'll be advising companies and brands.

1:02:00And few have built as strong a brand recognition as Mitchell Gold. So I think Mitchell Gold has a lot to share about how to build a great company. And I'm eager to find out what the third act now for Mitchell Gold will be. Yeah, I spoke to him briefly to write this item for our news digest, and it was interesting. He was very candid. He was like, I did a lot of things right, but I also did some things I would do differently. And I think that people can learn from that. We had a funny conversation about what to do when private equity comes knocking. And I think he's seen the industry just from so many different viewpoints, marketing and product development and acquisition deals.

1:02:41And he's got a lot to share. So I'm sure many people will take him up on the offer. I hope that they do. And I wish him all the best. And I'm eager to catch up with him and hear everything that he's got planned. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully.

1:03:17Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.