The Thursday Show: Leanne Ford on the pleasures of staying small and slowing down. Plus: Has RH turned a corner?

24:24They all come to me and that's the first thing they say. And I have to kind of work around that. They've defined the market. And so this person was talking about how they were making changes to their business to account for that fact. So if there's an RH interior design office in every major market, that changes the equation a little bit. I mean, this is just one experiment. We shouldn't overly jump ahead too far. But it's certainly interesting. And I will try and make it over to Palm Desert, maybe in February. I don't know. Is there anything else? And we've already probably talked for an hour about this.

24:54But is there anything else we should take away from this call? As entertaining as it was, we should move on to the next subject. Any last grab bag items? I think this is such an important company to watch. Part of why we talk about this company so much is - Is because we're nerds. Well, there's that. And there's also the fact that this company has stood out by, just as you were suggesting, they have defined in many markets what high-end luxury is. They have succeeded in doing that. They are the envy of so many other furniture brands who wish that they could be doing what RH is doing. They are the one to watch.

25:33They are leading the way. And as I say, they are spending hundreds of millions of dollars every quarter on very big bets and bold moves. And we shall see if they will pay off. But it is fascinating to watch, and it's worth everyone keeping an eye on just because it tells us so much of what's happening in this industry. Okay, up next, we're going to talk about this week's feature. For boutique wallpaper and textile brands, marketing without breaking the bank presents a unique challenge. This week, our managing editor, Haley Chouinard, wrote about the creative ways small studios make a big impact with a small budget.

26:18What did you think of this piece, Fred? Well, I really liked it. Of course, Haley did a great job. This piece actually came, interestingly enough, from a listener of the podcast, Danica Andler, a woman who has an eponymous wallpaper line, wrote in to talk about how there was a conversation we were having about AI and Photoshop and how she was thinking about marketing in her own business and came to a very fun strategy for getting around using digital technology, which we'll get to in a second. But I kind of wanted to zone in on this because it is a big, big challenge for companies in our industry that's hard to understand from the outside about how expensive it is to do photo shoots with home products.

26:54Just think about like fashion. You know, if you have your if you have your dress or your shirt or your suit, you just throw it on an attractive young person. You take a couple of pictures in an abandoned warehouse and you have a marketing campaign. Whereas for us, you know, these fabrics can be so expensive and you have to buy a lot of them for the shoot. You then have to have a location. Oftentimes, it's someone's home. And then the product is used at that point. It's difficult to get rid of. And you think about how many SKUs people have. I don't want to... I'm sure fashion has its other expenses, but I really do think it's a huge pain point for especially boutique brands in our industry.

27:29And it's such a cost. And I think it's a huge problem. And that's why I was really excited to hear Haley talk to people about it. Oh, absolutely. And in the past, when I had a custom furniture business that I was helping to run, we worked with a lot of small fabric lines that just wanted to put their product on our furniture and we gave them a discounted price so that they could use it for photo shoots. And as you say, many people were trying to use friends and family homes to go and do a shoot or find, and with wallpaper, it's even harder. What do you do with wallpaper? How do you show it in a meaningful way?

28:06And we thought digital tools would make a lot of things easier, but it's not as simple as that, right, Fred? Yeah, and that was kind of at the heart of Haley's story, right? Because you have this perennial pain point in the industry of it's so expensive to these photo shoots. They're also so important, right? Because this is basically the only marketing you can do. So you have to make it pop, you know? So you have this perennial pain point and along comes digital technology. You can Photoshop your product into a digital room or into a stock photo. You can also use AI to generate a fake room and Photoshop your product into it.

28:37There's a million different ways that technology like quote unquote solves this problem. But I think what a lot of people sort of realize is that it starts to sort of look the same. You see people use like literally the same stock Adobe room to put their wallpaper into. And it starts to feel a little bit like, ugh, like what am I doing here? And that kind of technology becomes a little commoditized. So what Danica did was she had a friend build like a dollhouse, like a really small scale version of a home. And she styled her wallpaper in that. So obviously less product than you would use in a full scale installation.

29:08And the images came out really, really well. You know, it was a very clever sort of workaround. Other people had done sort of similar things of building like smaller scale spaces. I just thought it was really fun to see sort of clever ways that brands were trying to get around just simply using AI or Photoshop to market their product. I agree. And we've talked in the past about how challenging it is for so many of these boutique brands to stand out, to be memorable, to get their products seen. We've talked in the past about the difficulty of trying to get appointments with designers or clients and try to see people.

29:46So I think some of the fun solutions that Haley wrote about in this piece were very fun. The images from Danica's dollhouse were great. And again, memorable, which is part of what you're going for. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think that's the thing is like everyone sees a new technology come along. They're like, oh, it's going to change everything. Everyone's going to do this. Why would I ever have a real photo shoot? But then what you realize is that that look becomes sort of commoditized and boring and samey and you need to do something else to stand out. And that's kind of where you get human ingenuity in the picture.

30:17And so you do, you know, you have stuff like what Danica did. Other people like come up with like, instead of trying to get an appointment with designers to sell them fabric, they do a workshop where they, you know, they teach them a skill and, you know, people are much more excited to do that than they are to, you know, sit there and have, you know, a sample shown to them. So I just, I was really inspired by a lot of these sort of clever ways that these brands got around the challenges. It's fun to see people are not just, you know, throwing AI and Photoshop at everything. I do think it has a role, you know, I mean, I think like realistically, especially for a bigger brand, you cannot photograph, you know, 10 ,000 SKUs or whatever it is.

30:50And so you're going to see digital technology in the mix. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's probably ultimately a good thing. But this is just a reminder that it's certainly not going to replace every last little bit of human creativity. And it was cool to see these fun examples. And it's definitely this week's must read. Agreed. OK, moving on, we're going to talk about millionaire renters on the rise, Fred. That's me all over. A story in the Wall Street Journal this week explored why a growing number of high-earning households are choosing to remain renters rather than buying a home.

31:20Why, Dennis? Why? Why? So many reasons why. It turns out, and we've been talking about the challenges in the housing market these days, the limited number of homes that are available for sale and the prices that are being asked of them. And a lot of the economics around the decision of buying versus renting have led a lot of people to decide, you know what, it's worth me renting for a while. And maybe some of them are waiting out the market to see, or maybe some of them are deciding, I'd rather use my money elsewhere. But it definitely might present some challenges for designers. Yeah, well, it was interesting.

32:06I mean, I was kind of surprised to see this because we do always talk about, well, does it really matter for the 1 % of the 1 % if the economy is a little bit down or the housing market is a little wonky? And this article very conclusively proves that, yes, it does matter. I mean, I think that the number of households that are, you know, that have incomes more than$750 ,000 that rented rose to 10.5%. I think the highest level that it's ever been. And, you know, as you pointed out, sometimes there isn't a home, you know, to buy. And other times there, maybe they could afford to buy some home, but they're just psychologically wanting to get a better rate.

32:37So, you know, the same challenges that affect everybody, you know, affect them as well. And, yeah, I mean, it does matter for designers. You know, you put up a poll on your Instagram about this. I'm curious what people said about whether they work with renters and how that's different than working with a homeowner. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting because it was a 50-50 split of designers saying, no, I haven't worked with renters. Yes, I have. And I was surprised how many people have worked with renters and in sizable spaces. And several people pointed out that it's not just little one-bedroom apartments, that these people have plenty of money to spend.

33:12And the challenge is, what are the limitations? Often your lease has some clause that says it's got to be returned to a white box when you leave. And so some people say, oh, you know, what the heck, I'm just going to go ahead and put up that wallpaper or paint the place, whatever I want, and make some big investments. And some people, as the article pointed out, went the housing route and then found out it just took so long. And they said, you know what, let's just move to an apartment. So, I mean, for designers, it certainly sounded as if plenty of people are using designers in this process, which I was relieved about.

33:53I'd love to learn more about what that means for budgets on projects like that and what are some of the things that you can't do in a rental that you would do in a home. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting sort of conundrum because I think conventional wisdom would be that people spend way more on a home that they own than they would on a rental. And I think that that's probably still true, even if you're a millionaire. But on the other hand, if you move every three or four years or if you move every five years, and that's a lot more opportunity to refresh your space, and maybe that's how designers kind of make it back by, you know, maybe the projects themselves have a smaller spend, but there are more of them.

34:30So it's possible that this kind of washes out. And yeah, I'd be really curious to hear how you sort to structure your business to make the same off of a rental project. I mean, I'm guessing there's a lot less like construction work and stuff like that. And, you know, maybe you have to think differently about whether you charge for time or a markup on product. But I'm guessing that there are designers who have, you know, really, really figured out how to do this and how to make it work. No, absolutely. And I think, listen, I grew up in New York City, and there's an awful lot of forever renters.

34:59And I think that they just settle in and they do whatever they want in that darn apartment thinking they're never going to leave. So I would love to have designers write into us and talk to us about some of the experiences that they've had and what the budgets are like and what the limitations are like, because I think this is a really interesting segment of the market that is clearly growing and I think probably will continue to. So I would love to hear more. Yeah. And I think designers should not by any means take despair at this news. I mean, I think like if anything, what this pounds home is the idea that I personally think that in the future, and this has been the way for a while, but I'm going to, I think it's even more so in the future is that so much of the value proposition is just making life easier for your clients and making the process smooth and making it go quickly and saving them time really as much as anything.

35:50Because of course people, as you pointed out, some of them rent because they don't want to deal with buying a house and deal with the complexity of renovating it. You know, they want someone just to take care of everything and you know, who, who better poised to do that than a designer. So I sort of think, I don't think this is going to be like the majority of most designers' business in the next five years. But I think thinking about how this plays into your value proposition is really important. And clearly there is, there's a market here. Agreed. And it's clearly not the small segment of the market that perhaps we thought it was.

36:19So interesting. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a design firm that's gamifying the client intake process and a look at the best fall debuts from Paris Design Week. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

36:40If you're coming to High Point Market this fall, I hope you'll join me in the Chelsea House showroom when I host a lively conversation with three exceptional founders. Naz Nazawa of Naz Design, Stephanie Sabi of Sabi Interior Design, and Rebecca Zavoloff of Kitchen Lab Interiors. All three are bold entrepreneurs who have built successful design firms and brands that are recognized far beyond their local communities. They'll share what they've learned along the way. Join us at 1 p.m. on Sunday, October 27th at Chelsea House at 200 North Hamilton Street. Lunch will be served beginning at noon. We'll see you then.

37:20Harpen & Forbes' boutique approach to creating hand-woven natural window coverings enables a level of customization and craftsmanship that's unique in today's marketplace. You're invited to customize a weave to achieve the color or design that best fits your project, remove, change, or add threads, widen the warp edge, or color match a room detail. The possibilities are endless. The result is a unique commissioned work hand-woven in editions of one. Each product is supported by unmatched personalized service. To explore the possibilities and register for your trade account, visit HartmanForbes.com.

38:06Okay, I have the pleasure of being joined by interior designer Leanne Ford. Leanne, welcome back to the show. Thank you, Dennis. Always good to be here. Well, it's delightful to have you, and I'm excited to talk about your new book, The Slowdown. I wanted to start by just having you catch us up a little bit. We last spoke with you in the summer of 22 on the show. I wonder if you can tell us where you are and kind of what you're up to these days. You know, I've had a very fun couple of years. So we're in our little town outside of Pittsburgh called Swickly and we've been doing a lot of fun things in our town one of which was the book The Slowdown is all about our home and fixing that space up and living this kind of small town life and then just to make small town even smaller I have been in a little town called Round Top Texas fixing a house up with my dear friend Grace Mitchell and we have bought a house together, gutted and rebuilt.

39:12And we're going to do it again. We just put a shack, we trucked a shack and put it on our property. So Grace and I have had so much fun doing that together. That's great. And it's funny because I was refreshing my memory about our last conversation and you were teasing yourself about house flipping and that you hadn't been good at some of the economics of it in the past. Correct. And I continue to be subpar at it. And yet you continue to pursue it, which I so admire. I do. That's the artist in me. A tortured artist, right? Well, so, and what's the hope with the Round Top property? My husband and I have a love of Texas.

39:57We're very attached to Texas. You know, we go there often they have one of the biggest, if not the biggest vintage market in the country, three times a year right now, I think. So Grace and I have always met there. She's from Fort Worth. I fly down and we run around that little town. We've become very close with the people that work there and the vendors and the people that buy. And we were there last show and we didn't buy any furniture, but we did buy a house. I told Grace and her husband, Kent, I said, we're buying this house if you guys want to split it. And sure enough, they walk right in during the closing.

40:34So we all sign our name. We've never even talked about it, honestly. Which seems like such a huge decision that what we're going to split a house and we haven't even really talked about it. You know, but Grace and I, it's, it's been, I've had such a really special summer and year because I've been working a lot with other designers that I love and collaborating with other designers. And that's been very refreshing for me and kind of honestly, pretty life-giving just to be with creative people. And I've been working with Christina Simon out of Austin and Amy Ninesinger out of Los Angeles and now Grace out of Fort Worth.

41:10And for me, it's just been like a really fun, I don't know if I'd say a refresh, I guess, but like a little zap, a zap of excitement. And it's been really sweet. And what have you been doing exactly with them? I mean, we've been doing different projects together. Christina and I did two little log cabins in Maryland for client-ish. I say client-ish very loosely because I don't take clients on, quote unquote, but every once in a while they sneak in. Which is one of the things that's so interesting about your interior design practice, the fact that you don't take on clients, which would seem so fundamental and such a necessary part of having.

41:52But I do not, I believe I've told you this before, Dennis, but I am not a real interior designer. I don't have a firm, but I do design. I'm not an interior designer. I just design interiors. There you go. That's the, see on the business card you don't have. That's what you should have. Just like have a chicken scratch across interior designer. That's right. And then Amy and I are working on a couple of projects. We've done things together throughout the years, and we're doing a couple in New York. It's just been so fun. Tons of laughs. We take turns with sharing the load, and that's been pretty special.

42:30Well, I want to get into talking about this book because I think it will help people better understand everything that we've just been referring to. Let's set it up a little bit for people. Let's talk about why you decided to leave LA, return to the loving arms of the state of Pennsylvania and family and this house, which wasn't at all part of the plan. And in your book, you talk a little bit about not really being ready to leave where you were and then not having seen this house in person at first. Right. So tell us. Our daughter was one and we were in Los Angeles and we had totally just found this dream house in Rustic Canyon.

43:15And we were like, okay, our daughter's going to have one house. We're going to live in one place. And this is it. And then very early into, I guess, just like the quarantine, you know, you're on this island. And I kind of just realized that we're away from family and we're in this kind of survival mode in Los Angeles. so unnecessarily. And my husband, I talked about where can we go have quality of life through all of this. And Pennsylvania is a major high quality of life. There's land, there's trees, there's water, there's, you know, there's space to breathe. So we ended up kind of loading the wagons very quickly and moved back to Pennsylvania.

44:00And it's been such an awesome decision. And, you know, So with that, we thought when, well, I'll just speak for myself. I thought when I left LA that my career, I was like, I have to be prepared for my career to maybe go away, certainly lessen, you know, because you're like leaving the big city and leaving where the action is. And that has proven to be quite the opposite. And I have this quality of life and I totally have slowed down. Like my quality of life is raised up. My ease of life is just simplified. But yet as a creative soul, it's been really big for me. I mean, it's really truly been life-giving.

44:45Like instead of having to go to meetings and survival mode and being in a car and traffic and, you know, all of this, all of a sudden I have time to think and create and do things that aren't just for a career. you know i i moved right to new york city when i was 20 you know i was like i'm gonna go to new york city i'm here to make my dreams happen in my career and i realized within the year i'm like i don't have time to make my dreams happen like i'm paying my rent i'm working for everybody else and you know i kind of realized like we don't need to go to everyone to do that we can step away from everyone and kind of live the life we want to and still be very fruitful in every way when you were leaving la and you talk about oh you're worried about your career going going away what what was happening for you at the time in la what was the career you were you were leaving i mean technically i really wasn't leaving in a career because technically i wasn't an interior designer again if i can make that clear yeah totally i didn't have a career no i mean i was doing i had just literally the week before my crate and barrel line launched and that was pretty wild because it's like oh my gosh this dream coming true and then the leanne ford for crate and barrel and then the doors locked on the crate and barrel right because of covid and the lockdown all the lockdown yes all of my beautiful furniture sitting in the store nobody can touch it or see it now where that benefit ironically was that the front of every store had our much longer than planned but you know i was doing things in los angeles like i was doing staging for these beautiful homes which was like really fun and immediate results and um i was doing heart tools and I, there was a lot going on, but I kind of, um, and you, you think you have to be handy to meetings and the people.

46:56And I just realized you don't really have to be necessarily handy to get a lot done still. But so you, you moved to Pennsylvania and it's, and you, and you get this, this this big old old house right that that needs some that needs some love and some care but has some incredible bones and and just fun stories and the people who were there before just seem cool they seem like they right they had built the stereo system into the walls and they were wood panel the library and yeah you know we are the third owner in this home this home was built 1900. So I mean, thinking about what was happening in 1900, our guest house, we have a separate guest house, which is the garage was literally a carriage house.

47:47And when we demoed some of the guest house, we found the stalls for the horses between the walls. And when my husband and I were looking for a new place, it seemed like every historical home had been quote unquote fixed, you know and all of this beautiful history was torn out and they would like take out wood paneling people were doing things that you know was pretty heart-wrenching for me but they had a brand new flashy kitchen and it looked like you built it in 1999 so when we found this house it had pretty much remained untouched except the kitchen had been done in the 70s which was perfect because I was like, you know, ruthless.

48:34I didn't care to respect this kitchen. We totally gutted it and turned it into what I felt like would look like it had been there, you know, when they built the house. But I was able to create a space that felt like it was, you know, I guess true to the era of the home. And I was able to just like put our modern furniture in these beautiful historical spaces. That was kind of the fun combination for me is this is a historical house. It's a big house, but it's not precious. It's very much lived in and very much for our time and our place. Often when a designer puts out a book like this, it's a how-to book.

49:17Let me tell you how you can achieve this look in your own home. Or it's, let me show you the amazing work that I do and that I can come and do for you and hey call me once you once you get this book in your hand because you're going to want to hire me and that's not at all where you're coming from so tell me why you wanted to do it and and let's talk more about the slowdown and its many meanings for you you know i wanted to do it really as an ode to this home this building and home is so magical and i feel I feel honored to be part of its history at this point. And you hear this, but people who have these older homes, you do feel like you're a steward.

50:03And I was shooting this house with Amy Neinsinger, who's an incredible photographer and designer, and then Hilary Robertson, who is a really incredible stylist, and they're great friends of mine. And we shot this house just for kicks, and we started talking about wow this house has more to offer like this is not a one day two day shoot you know so we started shooting it in multiple seasons and uh now it did not snow that year mind you so it's not about the seasons but um we started kind of shooting the progress of turning this into a home and then at simultaneously at the same time of writing this book and shooting for this book, I was reading Elsie DeWolf's.

50:50Elsie DeWolf, yes. Her whole book. So I always liked her, some of her quotes. Yeah, yeah. On Pinterest. And I was like, I want to get to know this lady. So I started reading The House of Good Taste cover to cover. And I was absolutely, I had my pen out. I had my Post-its out. I mean, I was studying this book. But what was so wild was so many of the things she was talking about and referencing were related to my house. It was the same era. You know, she was what early 1900s was kind of when she when she wrote the book, which is the same time they were building this house. And I started kind of seeing these references and matches.

51:37So probably to the chagrin of Abrams, but I was like, this also has to be a love letter to Elsie. We have to work Elsie DeWolf into this book in a big way, which you do. I mean, it's really a tribute to her. Well, and truly, you know, it's so interesting to me that now, a hundred and some years later, things she's saying are so relevant still. So, yeah, I did a whole love letter to her in here. and her words are all over this book. Well, and you point out that she was perhaps a little bit more into chintz than you are, but otherwise, right? Otherwise we're aligned. You're right there. Go ahead, do your thing with chintz.

52:16You know what? Live your life. Go ahead, go ahead. All that cabbage rose, you do you. And it was interesting the way that you wove it into the book and it did seem to fit in so much with what you were doing with the house or what the house was doing to you, really, I should say. Oh, yeah. The style of this home is very, very much the home was in charge. Truly, my style and reference is certainly throughout this home, but I tend to go super casual, cottagey, undone, and that didn't serve this house. This house, it would have felt wrong in this home. So this kind of invoked a new style coming out of me, which was maybe my 40-something-year-old style, or I'll go back to my scrappy cottage.

53:07But I really kind of wanted to respect this space, truly. Well, I feel also the arrival of your daughter, it felt like you wanted her to perhaps be in a different place from LA, and that was part of your decision, yes, to move? Yeah, just ease of life, quality of life. And it seems like her arrival has changed your thinking in some ways about a great many things. And I wonder if you can explain that further. Well, okay. So I love these therapy sessions, Dennis. Well, okay. So LA is a pretty magical town in many ways. And I went there, not a mom. and your priorities change when you have to take care of somebody else.

53:59And it also goes very much into a daytime life as opposed to an evening life, I would say. You're waking up at 7 a.m., 6 a.m. For the daytime quality of life, Pennsylvania is so beautiful and easy and biking with my daughter into town, into our little town and not having to jump in a car to go everywhere. I mean, if I could live on 100 acres and not see anybody for three weeks, I would be thrilled. But my husband's like, we need to see humans. Okay, we could see humans. But I mean, even as we were talking about the Slowdown book coming out, we're talking about, okay, we could do a book tour. We could go to the Crate and Barrel.

54:42We could go to the Buckneson stores and go on this tour. We had all this big plans and I was like, or we could do none of that. because true to brand of the sorry abrams sorry sorry oh our publisher i know we're just not totally but i was like this is called the slowdown like my you know i'm true to brand we're gonna do the unbooked tour so we are we're just gonna have kind of little fun dinner parties to celebrate and i'm gonna sign books of wherever whatever town i'm in and tell people to go grab one but um i'm gonna do kind of the sleepy lazy lee version of it it's interesting and i was thinking about you leanne in the context of recently on the show we were talking about there's a lot of research and data coming out that many startup companies or small businesses today are much smaller than they than they once were that companies are keeping themselves lean they're using more contractors.

55:47They're maybe using some technology to help them in different ways. And you have always been about keeping a small firm, a very small firm. Yeah, you're looking at it. Right? Yes. Well, I mean, and that still seems to be very much your mindset that you don't want to to grow and scale and and build out and tell me about that yeah you know i actually want to grow in different ways like i don't i don't need to prove anything to anybody i think and i think if i was to build a big firm that would just be to show that i could and i just don't i i like to grow kind of instead of taller i like to grow wider if you will but like i want to have time to try different things and do different things and play in different ways.

56:41And that's been really, for me, that feels fun and good. Like, you know, we're doing Feel Free magazine and that's, that's been incredible and inspiring and being able to support artists and meet and learn from artists. But that's time consuming. Of course. And, and, and tell people what that is, who might not be familiar, tell them about your magazine, Feel Free. So I have a magazine that we started, I guess, more than a year ago called Feel Free. And it's a very art-centric design magazine. And it's just showing art, showing kind of different ways for you. I mean, and to your point, Dennis, Feel Free magazine's been the how-to.

57:19Like that literally has recipes and here's what you do and here's how you do it. And, you know, these kind of different creative expressions. And I wouldn't have had the time and space to do those if I was still in Los Angeles. I really don't think so. So like being able to come to this small town has been incredibly inspiring as an artist, more than a businesswoman, I'd say as an artist. For the people out there listening to this who are feeling overwhelmed by the size of their firm or the number of projects that they have to say yes to in order to support the machine that is their firm, do you ever struggle?

58:06Are you ever tempted by something that makes you think, oh, if I hired a bunch of people and we could do this great big thing? Did it take work for you to get to this point where you can be as satisfied as you are with this? So for me, I love opportunity. Like I'm like, ooh, we could, ooh, we could. But I say very often to myself and to those around me, just because you can doesn't mean you should. right um so i have to say no to a lot of stuff and 20 year old me who was freelance and you know driven and had nothing but time is like what are you doing saying no to that but don't say no but 40 something year old me is like whatever i give to this i'm losing out on something else right so you're giving that time away that doesn't come back and i remember my husband who him and his business partner, Sasha started Buck Mason, not that long ago now, 10 years ago.

59:06And I remember one time he said, we want to grow stronger. We don't want to grow fatter because these companies, especially now, everyone's just like, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, but it's just kind of not real. Right. So you want to grow stronger and create a really strong foundation and only take on what you truly can be good at. And I think for me, that's been fun to figure that out. Yeah. And I think quality of life is so majorly important. And truly people, I think, forget that quality of life is even more important than output. And like, I don't want to have to go out to a restaurant or on a vacation to feel serene and, you know, feel good when I'm looking around or sitting in this space because design for me is feeling first.

59:58And I think that's why it becomes a visual conversation, but you know, the, the sound and the lighting and the, the is all in the company and, you know, the invitation and the hospitality is all just as important as what the place looks like. Do you still do sessions on the expert? I do. So, so tell me about that a little bit. You know, it's been crazy because it's an expensive hour for somebody, but it's much cheaper than wasted decisions or the wrong demo. There's a lot of times where people, a designer will have an hour with me to kind of talk through ideas about their client's project. So for an hour, we can go through anything that your little heart desires.

1:00:43And sometimes it's personal and sometimes it's career and sometimes about where to put the sofa. But, you know, it's why I like talking to and doing projects with other designer friends. It's like we get to riff off of each other and say yes and and encourage each other to kind of think bigger. And that's what I'm able to do. I'm an expert for people. You've talked in the past about finding different ways, again, because you you don't necessarily want to come to their home and do the interior design project for them. but you want them to have access to you and you want to be able to share. And I wonder, the art that you create, do you see leaning more into that in the future?

1:01:28Yeah. I like doing art because it doesn't involve a boatload of people, right? Right. So I've been making large ceramic bowls and selling them. in Swickley we have a Buck Mason store that has very kindly let it become a Buck Mason Leanne Ford store and it's as House Beautiful just said it's the closest we've got to Leanne Ford Boutique so I'm putting a lot of things I make in there and like you know sketches and little posters and things like that and things that are like aren't going to scale on a national or international level but I get to kind of still play. And then people that live around here get to put them in their own homes.

1:02:13So yeah, in that form, totally. And some things are great for career and some things are great for bank account and some things are just great for your psyche. And I kind of play with all of that. We've really picked, and I'm speaking to the choir here because of everybody that listens to your show, like we picked a hard career. I think 10 years ago, I kind of always said like you can do it too and now i'm like are you sure you want to do it because it's a tough gig but if you've got you know it'll weed itself out because if you've got the bug you have no choice and you've got to do it you know yeah no no it's it's interesting i'm i'm always i'm always waiting to see the headline that you've been that you've been pulled into some great big hospitality project or something.

1:03:02I'll cross the slowdown out when a hotel comes to me. Yes. Well, I mean, I think, and maybe that's what it's going to take. Maybe that's what it's going to take for you to be pulled out of the slowdown. Would that be the project that you would say, yes, okay, I will scale up for this. I will come along for this. I would come along for it without scaling up. I would love to be able to create space more people can enjoy. And maybe Dreamland, that happens in our little small town. We just bought this beautiful old house off our main street. And we're going to turn it into a beautiful little bar and bite spot.

1:03:50Dark and nudey and candlelit and great music playing. I couldn't tell you a thing about food or drink. So I'm going to align with somebody who's expert in that. But I can tell you about good music and good lighting and a beautiful place to sit around and be together. Food and drink to come. But the ambiance is going to be killer. Well, I mean, listen, it's a great example of like stay in your lane. I'm not going to pretend like I know how to mix anything or cook anything. So I'm going to align with and collaborate with somebody who is an expert in that field. Yeah, I love it. I love it. That would be a great place for a book event when that place gets finished.

1:04:32Actually, it's empty right now. That'd be a great place for an event. It's a big old empty house. Okay. Well, I mean, I think actually that could be quite a fun place. Okay. The book is called The Slowdown. It's coming out October 1st. Don't look for a great big book tour right now, but we'll get back to you if some dates appear. But Leanne, it is always a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you, Dennis. You're the best.

1:05:02And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Well, you're not the only one who can go out to the parties and live the mad life of the New York design social scene. So I went out to a couple events this week, including a really fun one at our friend's Lululittle's place, Sohn. It was an opportunity to come check out the showroom, which is really beautiful, but also to see one of their craftsmen actually making a rattan, a couple different rattan pieces.

1:05:33So light fixtures, essentially, like live in studio. And it was really cool just to talk to the person. And it was funny. She was like, yeah, before this, I worked at a pizza hut. And now I work for sewn and I've learned this incredible craft. And it was just fun to see how this stuff gets made. And listeners, I actually did a little bit of rattan weaving. So if you buy a sewn light fixture at some point in the next year or so, it may have a little Fred Nicolaus handiwork. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I did get in a little rattan weaving while I was there. Anyway, what caught your eye this week, Janice?

1:06:05I'm sure there's a lot going on. Well, there is a lot going on. One of the things that caught my eye was a story broke. New York Magazine, in their curbed feature, had a story about, sadly, M &J trimming closing down. They've stopped taking orders on the website, and the store looks as though it will be closing soon. And there was an outpouring of people in the design community and the fashion community. Sarah Jessica Parker seemed to be very closely tied to M &J Trimming. And Simon Doonan talked about how when he was working at Barney's and doing windows, he was over there all the time. And it was the early business that ultimately led to what they at first called M &J Decor and later would become Samuel and Sons.

1:06:57So it was Sam Cohen and the family that had started M &J. And it seems like it was a victim of COVID and the internet and some of these things becoming commoditized. But it was a very meaningful store to an awful lot of people. Yeah, I know. That's like really the sad thing about, you know, e-commerce. It's so much more convenient, of course. And I understand people would want to shop for something like their product online. But, you know, there's just something magical about going to these, you know, these big shops that are absolutely chock-a-block full of this kind of product. like these old fabric stores like Mood, for example.

1:07:35And, you know, it's a sad sign of the times. And, you know, now we're ending the show on a down note. Way to go. Well, no, I mean, I think it's, you know, what was interesting about it was that it's just a reminder that retail is challenging. And this was a magical store for a long time and much beloved, as we heard. But it is a challenging business, that retail biz. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

1:08:18This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.