The Thursday Show: Mieke ten Have and the art of styling. Plus: How brown became the color of wealth

0:07This is Business of Home, I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on, I'll be speaking to stylist Mika Ten Hav about her new book. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including the ongoing controversy over quartz countertops, why college students are embracing luxury design for their dorms, and how brown became the color of wealth. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred. Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great. How are you doing? I'm head to toe in brown, the color of wealth. I'm doing It reads well on you It's very much my color I'm doing well Summer's coming to an end here I want to shout out to all the parents who made it through Better days lie ahead For all of us I know you're busy getting ready for back to school Exactly My kids are of course attending luxury Luxury kindergartens With luxury kindergarten rooms They're well taken care of I know fall isn't technically started, but I feel like we can talk about fall.

1:11Is your fall off to a good start? You know, I used to dread going back to school, Fred, when I was young. And so now I actually really look forward to September. What's new, what's next is coming. You'll see lots of people. There's lots of events and activities. So I'm all for fall. Bring it on. I've got my brand new lunchbox to bring to the 200 Lex for what's new, what's next. I'm excited myself. Well, normally we'd be looking back on Monday's episode, but we took off for Labor Day, so we don't have a show. There is a good one coming up on Monday, so stay tuned for that. I want to just quickly take a second to thank everyone who's donated to the GoFundMe campaign for design editor Mitchell Owens.

1:51He suffered a stroke. We talked about this last week. and Margaret Russell has kindly put together a fundraiser to raise money to help with his recovery. The GoFundMe is still going strong. If you can contribute, please do. We'll include a link in the show notes. Mitch is showing some signs of recovery, but obviously every little bit helps. So get over to that link if you can. Absolutely. And we're pleased about the good news coming from Mitch's camp and we send him and his family our best regards. We're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first a quick break.

2:26This podcast is sponsored by Hartman & Forbes. For over 25 years, Hartman & Forbes has delighted the design community by handcrafting the industry's most diverse collection of natural window and wall coverings. Hand-weaving to customers' size specifications and using sustainable natural fibers enables Hartman & Forbes to deliver a bespoke product in seamless widths up to 180 inches. They're proud to share this age-old tradition and look forward to being a valuable resource that enables you to create a sense of sanctuary rooted in natural design. Visit HartmanForbes.com to discover the fall-winter 24 new arrivals and to find a Hartman and Forbes luxury showroom near you.

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3:48And we're back. First up, Fred, more quartz controversy. Yes. Chicago-based stone fabricator Florenza Marble & Granite was fined$1 million after two of its employees contracted an incurable disease, leaving both in need of lung transplants. OSHA found that the company lacked a safety program to protect its employees from the risks of exposure to silica, a material released in the process of cutting stone. Sort of a somber and sad, but very important one to kick the show off. Dennis, what do you think? No, it's an important issue, and we've talked about it on the show before, but this case seems significant, and I think we should probably have you break it down a little bit and take us through some of the details of what's happened.

4:29Just to rewind a little bit. So, you know, quartz, sometimes called engineered stone, you know, it's a safe material when it's just sitting, you know, there on your countertop. But in the process of cutting it, a lot of this dust called silica is released into the air. And if you don't cut it safely, if you don't cut it with proper ventilators and the right technology and cut it with water, then so much of this dust gets into the air. And when it gets in workers' lungs, it causes this horrible disease called silicosis, which leads to people needing things like lung transplants. transplants and the survivability rate is very low.

5:02So it's a very serious disease. And the prevalence of silicosis has caused Australia to ban quartz countertops outright last year, which was a huge story that we talked about. This specific company, Florenza Marble and Granite, it's not a big company. It's like six employees. This story is in itself a small local business. But I think why I wanted to talk about this is because there are a lot of shops like this. And like this one, not all of them have safe working conditions. And we're seeing more and more cases of this. We're seeing lawsuits. This issue is really bubbling up. And I thought we should just talk about it a little bit and what it could mean.

5:42You know, I remember when we first talked about this on the show, so many designers had just sent a story or a link about this subject because it is so serious. And it was obviously on a lot of people's minds. And it seems as though there are going to be more lawsuits coming around all of this. California sounded like they considered banning the product altogether, but pulled back for reasons I'm not entirely sure. But it does seem as if Australia's position in all of this doesn't seem an overreaction. I mean, one understands when seeing how serious this is, why they made the decision they did.

6:24Yeah, I mean, I think the complication is that a lot of the manufacturers like Cambria and Caesarstone, they point out that if you cut it safely in the right conditions, it is safe. And workers don't develop this horrible disease. The problem is that it's just it's impossible to guarantee that every little mom and pop workshop is going to do it the right way. You mentioned lawsuits. Now, there's a lawsuit in California and Los Angeles that just went through where a worker in one of these workshops who contracted silicosis sued. And he not only sued the company he was working for, but he also sued Cambria and Caesarstone and other manufacturers.

6:58And the case just went through and the manufacturers lost and they were found to be liable for, I don't know the exact figure, but tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that's one of 40 or 50 similar lawsuits in California court right now. So, you know, if the government isn't going to regulate either the material or the workshops, it's possible that this is just going to, you know, the sheer volume of these lawsuits. And if these companies are all liable, something's going to have to change. I don't know. This could be at the beginning of a very big change to the way we think about courts in America.

7:29I feel as though last week we were talking about forever chemicals and how much is going to come up legally around that issue. And I think this is another area where, as you say, the government might not step in, but the courts might step in and through these lawsuits make a lot of companies decide this isn't an area that they want to stay in. I'm wondering from a designer perspective, Fred, we're talking about this in part to raise awareness of all of this. What do designers need to be aware of? What kind of questions should they be asking? How can they take action? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, again, to reiterate, you know, if you happen to have a quartz countertop in your home, this is not something to immediately rip it out.

8:12It's the danger is in the, you know, the cutting of it. That's the main concern. I would just urge everyone who, you know, works with quartz or specifies quartz to check in with the fabricator and just say, hey, like, here's this article. Like, are you taking the right precautions here? I'm taking my dollars elsewhere if you can't prove to me that, you know, you're working safely and your workers are safe because you don't want to have, you know, you don't have that on your conscience. It's like these poor workers are, it's just, it's really tragic what happens to them. So I would just urge designers to ask hard questions that are fabricators, look for someone that you feel like you can trust.

8:45And it's a very real issue. Yeah, no, it's a serious issue and unfortunately a deadly one in this case and why we wanted to bring so much attention to it. It is a heavy way to start the show though, Fred. So we're going to try and move on to some lighter subjects, starting with the rise of the pint-sized startup. According to some new data from the Census Bureau, the average young firm now employs 4.6 people compared to 5.3 a year earlier and down from 5.8 at the turn of the century. The Wall Street Journal took a look at the phenomenon, blaming the shrinkage on everything from inflation to the rise of remote work.

9:23So, Fred, is this another example of shrinkflation? I thought that had to do with less potato chips in the bag or something. But this sounds like it's slightly different. Yes? Well, I love all these statistics where it's like the firm employs 4.6 people. I'm looking for 1.3 employees to fill this role. As most people who have employees will know, there are some employees who are 1.5 and some are 0.5. Anyway. Yes, exactly. Moving on. You know who you are. Yes, exactly. Moving on from that hot button topic. Yeah, I mean, this study, you know, from the Census Bureau and referenced in this journal article is about every firm.

10:00So when we say firm, we're talking about every, you know, startup business in America from a company that sells sweaters to a dental office to, of course, a design firm. And, you know, the article makes the point there's a lot of reasons. There's technology makes it possible to hire fewer people and you can work with people remotely. You know, it's also been such a time of economic turbulence with the crazy swings of the pandemic. And I think people generally assume that smaller businesses are more, you know, they can survive the turbulence more. And then finally, you know, wage inflation has been really strong over the past few years.

10:32And it's just harder to hire people affordably, which pushes people to, you know, generally keep their businesses small. So those are kind of the three big reasons that the journal explains why companies are getting smaller. I will say anecdotally, I feel like I've noticed that in the design industry. What do you think, Dennis? Do you think design firms, taking it away from the bigger economy, in our corner of the world, do you think businesses are getting smaller? Well, it's interesting because we talked recently and you wrote a piece about how many design firms are out there. And we've been talking about how many more design firms there seem to be in recent years.

11:05And many of them are very small firms, one or two people shops, often people leaving a bigger firm and going out on their own. And we talked to so many people who say very clearly, I don't want to become a big firm. I don't want all that responsibility. I don't want all the people management. And this article pointed to, I couldn't tell if this article was saying this was a good thing or a bad thing. I felt like, right? I couldn't tell if it was, oh, conditions are tough. So everyone's running a smaller shop. Whereas I felt to your point, listen, there's a lot of new technology. There's a lot more flexibility in the workplace.

11:46Many of these things seem like a positive to me. If you wanted to run a small shop, keep things lean, there were a lot of new ways to do it, which is what I took away from it. Come on, Wall Street Journal. Just tell us if it's good or bad. That's all I care about. Well, it sounded really negative in the piece. And I felt like, well, isn't this great that you can start a small business? You can hire a lot more contractors to do things these days. And one of the plus sides, I think, about artificial intelligence is that it seems to be a meaningful tool for efficiency overall. I don't know. I mean, efficiency is usually a euphemism for taking someone else's job.

12:26But, yeah, I hear you. I mean, I think I mean, I do think it's a good thing. It makes it easier to get a business up and running. I think I think there's undeniably something really positive about that. And I think in the design world, what I've really seen over the past few years is these companies that have sprung up to sort of unbundle all of the roles within a design firm and outsource them to an outside contractor. So you'll have a firm that will do purchasing for you or will do invoicing for you or it'll do accounting. Sometimes you can get one of those services, but not all of them. You'll have a firm that'll do renderings for you.

13:01So I've noticed that there are a lot more businesses that basically help, you know, if you're a solo designer and you just want to hire one person to do one aspect of your business, it's so much easier to find that now. Whereas I feel like five, 10 years ago, you just had no choice but to hire somebody and build them up. So for designers who are getting their businesses off the ground, I think it's unquestionably a good time for that kind of thing. See, now that's a positive thing, right? Like everything you just outlined, that sounds really good. I refuse to put a negative spin on this story.

13:29Well, I think if there is a negative spin, it's simply that we're kind of creating a different culture where firms are smaller, which sounds good, kind of. But it means there's not as much of this culture of young people coming up within a design business, moving from one level to the next, really establishing themselves within a business and then launching off and starting their own firm where they have a lot of experience under their belt. Well, I mean, I hear that. And OK, if you bring it home and make it about the young people, well, then I'm with you. But I do feel that when I talk to designers, they list all of these efficiencies.

14:06But at the same time, I feel like the remote worker is much less of an issue with many firms that I talk to. They all want to be together. And there's no replacing people for all the important client interactions and so many of the things that really move a project along. and being on site and working with all the many team players that make the job possible. So I feel like there'll be plenty of opportunities for humans in design jobs in the future. But I think it's great that there is more efficiency out there. There you go. I'm splitting it right down the middle. How about that? I don't know.

14:45I mean, does everything have to be good or bad? It's just happening, I think, is the takeaway. And yeah, look, at the end of the day, I just think, like, as you said at the beginning of this conversation, you know, so often when you talk to, like, a really accomplished designer, they're like, I'm so happy to work with eight people and no more. I remember we had Jamie Bush on the LA designer recently. And he was like, yeah, I got 23 people. I'm really happy. And that was so shocking to us because it's the exact opposite of what other people have been saying recently. So I do think there is a trend towards small.

15:13And as long as there's a few people sitting there, as long as it's not all robots and remote workers, we can maybe be happy about that. Yeah, no, I agree. Okay, we've got to move on, Fred, to the all important subject of luxury dorm room design. Yes, for the New York Times this week, Danielle Braff explored by college students are spending nearly double what they once did to improve their on-campus housing with big ticket additions like luxury light fixtures and custom cabinetry. Does any of that sound familiar, Dennis? Is that your kid's experience in college? Yeah, I mean, I feel like between our conversation about the sorority houses and this conversation, back to school just seems very different today than when I was dropping my children off at their university dorms.

15:58Yes, there was the frantic trip to Bed Bath & Beyond has been replaced by the frantic trip to the D &D building to specify some custom pieces. This was really interesting. And I do think this really has been in the air. This is like rewinding a little bit. But do you remember that interior designer Max Stedden? His like launch into the design industry was a story. It was like maybe 10, 15 years ago about, oh my gosh, this one college student interior designed his dorm. It was like this crazy big, it was like the front page of the New York magazine. I do remember it was everywhere, that story. What?

16:30They hired a designer for the dorm and now it just seems de rigueur. Exactly. Like he did it and it was, this is so crazy. And now it just feels like, yeah, of course you do this. So it's kind of remarkable how much change happens drip by drip by day, day by day. And suddenly you're in this world where people are getting custom beds for their dorm room. I don't know. I think it's really interesting. What do you think is driving it? What's the main reason? Do you think that we're seeing a lot more of this now? Well, it's funny. I was having a conversation yesterday with a very high-end designer.

17:02And just by chance, this subject came up. And he said, you know, listen, a lot of times a client that I've had for a long time will just say to me, do me a favor. The kids are getting ready to come back to school. Will you help me out? Will you design some fabulous space for the room? And he goes, first he goes, sort of, really? That's what you want me to do? But then he says, okay, yeah, sure, I'll do it. And he says, because this is some huge client that I've done multiple homes for. And if they need me to fix up the kid's dorm room, sure. And they get into it and you find out not at all unusual.

17:35But there's lots of designers who are working on this. And there's this almost this expectation now. I don't know. What do you hear? Well, I do hear more and more of it happening. And this article in The Times talked to these firms that specifically specialize in this. To some degree, I wonder how they really make money because it just seems like it would be difficult given like the, even if you have a luxury dorm room, it's certainly not the same overall spend as even a regular bedroom. So I do wonder about their business models. But yeah, I hear I hear about a lot. I mean, I think the main reason why people even want it is relatively simple.

18:10I think it's because design is just more a part of, you know, culture in general. And I think Instagram and certainly TikTok have made it more, you know, where you live is much more a part of your identity than it was 10 years ago for young people. And so, hey, where you're where you live is going to be a dorm. You want to you want to trick it out. So I think that's kind of what's what's causing this. I wonder, again, to apply your rubric of, is this good or is this bad? Is this a good thing? I just want to say it's not the point of this show. But to bring that lens to this, this is an interesting thing because I would be inclined to say, okay, this is a good thing.

18:47Like, young people want to get into design. This really is certainly good for people in our industry. It's an opportunity. You know, why not? But I do think, you know, on the flip side, you know, we just had Mary Celeste Bell from Blackberry Farm on the show, and she was talking about this phenomenon a little bit. And she was saying it's a little bit of a waste because this stuff doesn't translate well to the next home. And it maybe sets young people up to think that the world is all going to be designed for them and everything's going to be luxurious and beautiful and they'll get a rude awakening when they get out of college.

19:15So I don't know. This maybe does have a little bit of a downside. But what do you think? Well, exactly. I mean, and I think you can make the case. Listen, listen, part of what we're always trying to do on this show is to find the golden nugget for designers. And so great. If a bunch of designers are finding some extra work doing dorm rooms, celebrate. That's fantastic. Do some people worry that the expectation that young people might have coming out of school and having spent four years in that beautifully designed room to then go and live with multiple people in an apartment in Brooklyn and not have nearly as nice a place for perhaps many years after they leave school?

20:02That was Mary Celeste's concern was, are the next five years going to be disappointing for you when you get out into the real world? And I think many people share that notion. I also just think, and I'm always torn, do we want young people to be as commercially aware as all of this? Do we want them to yearn for luxury design spaces while they're in school? You described your dorm room at NYU as almost prison-like, if I recall. I don't – Take away the word almost. It was prison-like. It was very much a cinder block wall affair. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's the only concern in all of this that some people raise, and I get it.

20:49Yeah. I don't know. I think those points are all really good. I mean, I certainly as as an ambassador for youth culture, I'm very well equipped to talk about this. You're who I turn to these times, Fred. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think overall it's I just think it's a good thing for young people to care about the ways that, you know, the space that they're in looks and feels. And if that space happens to be a dorm, so be it. I think we can all sort of laugh at the excesses of this, but also it's probably a good thing for people to care about where they live, especially for the business of home audience.

21:24So I'm going to say let's give this a stamp of good. Excellent. Okay, well, then good it is. Moving on, we're going to talk about 2024's hottest color, which is brown. This week in the Washington Post, journalist Cassia St. Clair took a deep dive into the color brown, looking at why it dominates the design landscape and how it became associated with wealth and taste. Is that how you see it, Fred? Brown equals wealth and taste? Well, I'm not a journalist for the Washington Post. So, I mean, I will say like this is clearly at least sort of true, especially if you look at like the big retail catalogs over the past year or a couple of years.

22:05There really is this this look. And I mean, I kind of associate it with restoration hardware, but certainly, you know, remember when Banana Republic Home launched, it was very much these kind of beiges and browns. Our house specializes in a very brown centric palette. You know, then you kind of go up to a little bit higher up in the marketplace. And like the work of Colin King, for example, is usually pretty kind of in that tan, brown, beige palette. So I do think this is at least sort of true. What do you what do you think, though? So I'm always interested in these color stories just because, as you say, it's they do have such a huge impact on what we what we see from car colors to to sofa colors to to the paints that are being introduced.

22:46So it is really interesting. And there were a lot of people that felt like this was a very British influence. Shout out to El Decor, who I want to say way back in April had a piece about why quiet luxury brown is poised to be the popular color of 2024. And they reminded me that Jake Arnold had talked about broccoli brown, which I don't usually think of broccoli and brown as together. But broccoli brown is apparently a very popular ferro and ball color and one of his go-tos. And a lot of people talked about Brown just being such a great neutral and a great way to sort of quiet a space down a little bit.

23:28So I think this whole sort of earthy connection is interesting. But I think it's interesting that it became this quiet luxury go-to. I don't know how it rose up the social and economic ladder from being dirt to suddenly signifying wealth. But kudos to Brown. He must have a good PR person because there are a lot of stories about Brown. Brown's got a good team working on its behalf. You know, with these color theory study trend stories, people are always looking for a reason why. And I understand that. And I don't think it's wrong. You know, in the article, they talked about how, you know, Brown symbolizes like craft in the natural world at a time when technology is disrupting everything.

24:13Yes. I don't know if that's why Brown is big right now, but it's a fun explanation. I don't know. What do you think? Well, exactly. I love that Brown somehow suggested handmade and artisan's touch in it. And it made me think about, does this mean good things for Brown furniture coming back in a big way? I don't know. That poor underdog. But I did think that the juxtaposition in a time of technology seeming so unsettling to so many people that Brown is somehow now reassuring. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I don't know. You know, as always is the case with these trends, it's, you know, once a big newspaper writes a story about it, it's already over.

24:58I know a lot of designers listening to this will have been like, oh, God, let's get back to color. And I just spoke with someone who works on design catalogs, and they were talking about how color is going to be really big in the fall. So it's possible that the brown era is already over. We just don't know it yet. But I do think it's real. And this article is a fun look at the history, the past, present, future of brown. Absolutely. But as you say, I don't know. It might be the top for brown, even if we're talking about it, right? That may be the bell that gets ringing. Exactly. Short brown. That's our message to you.