The Thursday Show: Nathan Turner is hands-on with everything. Plus: The design industry's AI vibe shift

0:06This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to The Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Nathan Turner about his new book. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including a big lighting acquisition, the AI vibe shift, and whether the industry's beige epidemic is really over. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred. Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great. How you doing? I'm doing good. Or should I say, hi, Dr. Scully? How's it going? Would you please? Would you? Just this once. Can we lead with that? You have earned it.

0:42Listeners who don't know, it was just last week, Dennis earned an honorary doctorate from the New York School of Interior Design. And not only that, the cherry on top, a clip of Dennis's speech is currently going mega Mikoviral, in which he positively compares interior design to brain surgery, which I think there's a lot in that. But congratulations. How was it? Oh, it was such a great day. I mean, what a joyful day to be there on a day when all of these students who have worked so incredibly hard. And it is not easy getting a degree from the New York School of Interior Design. So any student who graduates has gone through a lot.

1:20It was thrilling to be there and how fun to be honored with an honorary doctorate, particularly as listeners might not know, I actually didn't attend university myself. So it is the very first time that my mother got to see me receiving a diploma from a university. And needless to say, she was pretty proud about that. No time like the present to make up for lost ground there. Hang in there. That's what I say to people. Well, anyway, don't let it get to your head. And we do not have a Monday show to look back on. But I will say, you mentioned Nathan Turner and his new book, but you didn't say the title of the book.

1:59Now, the title of the book is not I Love Interior Design. It's I Love Decorating, which is just another data point in my thesis on how we're vibe shifting away from interior design to back to interior decorating. Do you think Nathan would agree with me on that one? I think a lot of people would agree with you on that one. And I think it's interesting because, candidly, the anti-decorating language still comes in pretty hot in my DMs. So I'm always fascinated by the subject. But I feel more and more, and we've had recent guests who just say, yeah, you know what? I have mad respect for many of the decorators that came before me, and I want to lean into that title.

2:39I think Nathan enjoys that title a great deal himself. So I'm all for it, right? He titled his book that title. So there you go. He loves decorating and he always makes it fun. So it's definitely worth checking out his book. And it's a fun conversation with Nathan, as always. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.

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5:00And we're back. First up, Fred, looks like Pookie's got a new home. They do. Just two years after launching its U.S. operation, the Buzzy British lighting brand has been acquired by, drumroll please, Visual Comfort. Was this a secret, Dennis? Did we know that maybe Pookie might be being shopped around quietly? Maybe, just maybe, we might have spoken to some people who had an opportunity to talk with Pookie about this. I'm not sure this was a big surprise, but a happy outcome, it seems. Yes, an interesting deal. And we should sort of catch people up on what Pookie is for those who haven't been following the story.

5:39So it's a British company. It was actually started over 10 years ago in 2014 by this very interesting guy, this guy, Rowan Blacker, who was an entrepreneur who started Sofa.com way back in the early 2000s before that, you know, buying furniture online was really a thing. In England, it's sort of a different kind of company. They have sort of a more classic lighting brand model. But in the U.S., when they launched two years ago, they really went all in on, do we say portable? Do we say rechargeable? What's the current term, Dennis, for what battery-powered lighting is? What is the word we're using now?

6:12I know. I feel like I say rechargeable and people say, oh, no, no, it's portable. It's portable lighting. Yes, portable. Yes, anyway, so that's really been their MO in the States is to have this sort of, you know, almost a direct-to-consumer brand. They certainly have targeted designers with this very colorful options. You can buy all different kinds of shades, all different kind of bases. And they really have created a lot of buzz in a relatively short amount of time, only two years here in the States with this very hot category portable lighting. And lo and behold, we find out that they have been acquired by Visual Comfort.

6:46So as we always do when there's an acquisition story, there's the question of why did they want to sell and why did the other company want to buy? So starting with why did Pookie want to sell? What do you think, Dennis? Why did they want to sell? Well, when you start to see the founder launching a new company and your social media feed is full of fun videos of a new sofa brand that the founders launched, you sort of get the feeling that he's a serial entrepreneur and that perhaps mentally, at least, he's moved on a little bit. Would you say that's fair? I mean, I don't know what's inside. I'm not a brain surgeon, Dennis.

7:21But yes. designers, Fred, you're not a brain surgeon. Exactly. But Rowan Blacker has started a new company called Splendid, which is a sofa company. Now, I'm sure he still is invested in Pookie and cares about it, but yes, there's probably something to the fact that this brand has been around for 12 years, and maybe that's simply part of it. I also think there's just a... It's hard for a UK company to come to the US and grow really quickly. We've seen in the past couple years, several of them come with the best of intentions and spending tons of money. Red and Kitchen's just cut, bait, and bailed only a few weeks ago.

7:54So it's hard to grow in the U.S., but I'm sure being attached to a much bigger brand with distribution all over the country is a great way to grow much, much quicker. Yeah. I mean, I think in the U.S., as you were alluding to, it's a huge investment. Pookie showed up at High Point Market, for example, in a big, fun way, did a great activation, got on a lot of people's radar. But that's expensive. It's expensive to take a big presence at that show. And then you've got to follow it up with a sales team going around the country and calling on all these people. And so it's great to have a deep-pocketed partner.

8:33And Visual Comfort is certainly one of the most deep-pocketed in the industry. So I think that's what you need. Yeah. And that gets into, you know, why did Visual Comfort want to buy? Now, as we mentioned, Pookie, it's sort of an open secret that Pookie has been shopped around a little bit. Visual Comfort is sort of an interesting buyer because they don't buy a lot of brands. This isn't like Hudson Valley Lighting Group where they've really grown through acquisition. Visual Comfort is like acquired, you know, they acquired a showroom a couple of years ago, but it's not, you know, it's not a buying company.

9:03So, you know, I haven't sat down and done an interview with the CEO, Andy Singer. I hope we can get him on the podcast at some point soon to get in on this. But, you know, my assumption is just that rechargeable lighting, portable lighting, whatever you call it, it's a very hot category. It's grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years. Pookie has done a very good and admirable job of building a brand very quickly in the U.S. And I'm betting also that Visual Comfort also wants to grow in the U.K., where Pookie actually the majority of their business actually is. So, you know, this works on a couple of different levels.

9:31It makes a lot of sense. What do you think, Dennis? I think so. I very much agree. And I'm eager to talk to Andy Singer. And I hope that will be soon. I'd love to hear his take on all of this. He's incredibly thoughtful about the industry as a whole. It's undeniable that Pookie made a splash. And we've had several people on the podcast recently, who I sort of jokingly said, Oh, are you gonna be buying Pookie? And, you know, it was it was clear that everybody knew this brand and had watched their their presence grow in the in the US and whether they had a lot of of fun with shades or whether they just had a great price point.

10:07There were a lot of reasons to pay attention. And lots of other brands had some of this product in their line already, but clearly Visual Comfort thinks it's worth adding them on. And I get it. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. And I think portable lighting like rugs, like outdoor furniture has been one of the industry's hottest categories. I think it fills a really cool niche. It's an entry-level price point for a lot of brands that sell at a much higher price point. There's a million reasons to get on this. And I think that especially as the technology gets better, as the batteries get longer living, as the lights actually output more wattage, I think this will just only continue to grow.

10:44So watch this space. Next up, we're going to talk about Williams-Sonoma. The retailer reported strong results on its latest earnings call despite difficult conditions for the broader home industry. Once again, everything got thrown at this company, Fred, and William Sonoma comes out fighting. Yeah, well, you know, we've talked a lot in recent weeks about how this has just been a terrible time for, you know, home industry brands on the stock market. Not William Sonoma. Despite the tariffs, despite the terrible home conditions, despite even the bad weather of the first quarter, they had a really good earnings report.

11:17You know, their comp over the last year was up 4.8 % in revenue. Their gross margin took a minor hit, probably driven by fuel costs and all that. But this was a remarkably good quarter in terms of the numbers. The actual call was very upbeat. Laura Albers, the CEO, was talking about no matter what they throw at us, we still come out on top. It's almost boring to talk about Williams-Sonoma because they just do a lot of things well. It's not like there was, oh, we did this one thing. Everything they're doing is working right now. amid a very, very challenging landscape. They're sort of the exception that proves the rule.

11:53Yeah, I agree. I think one of the many reasons why it's interesting to look at Williams-Sonoma is that they have brands at a lot of different price points. And I think we're seeing the success of West Elm, which is doing obviously terribly well. And we'll talk about some of the specifics there. But they're also a great brand incubator. and we've had Green Row on the show fairly recently talking about that new brand. It wasn't all that long ago that West Elm was the new brand that they were excited about and hopeful that it would get up to big numbers. They've got some very established brands like Williams-Sonoma, the brand itself, and Pottery Barn, which is starting to do better, but you've got a lot of different, it's almost as if you've got a lot of different businesses within this broad umbrella of Williams-Sonoma and they're nurturing them all along And many of them are, again, doing quite well, despite what we know is the tough housing market and very high interest rates.

12:53Yeah. Rejuvenation, another example of a brand that's been around for a medium amount of time that's going quite well. They just seem to be making the right moves at the moment. I mean, just to dial in a little bit to the specifics, one interesting sort of area of growth for them is that their B2B business has gotten a lot bigger. Now, that's working with residential interior designers, but it's especially working with contract and hospitality. Like residential, the quote unquote trade side of their business went up 9%, whereas the contract business went up 22%. So you can kind of see that dichotomy in their numbers.

13:25And we talked about just last week how everyone at ICFF, the sort of more residential furniture fair, wants to show a BDNY, the hospitality oriented fair, because everyone sort of sees that's where the heat in the market is. And you see that in William Sonoma's numbers. Now, it's easy to say, oh, take advantage of that. You know, it's difficult to actually do it. But if you have a big diversified business that can do that, good for you. There was also, interestingly, a lot of growth on the sort of children's baby stuff. I thought that was kind of interesting. I agree. And I think we've been talking about, is it a golden age for children's furniture?

13:56And I think it ought to be, darn it, because I think there's a lot of opportunity there. And they have a strong brand presence. And I think from the product side, there's more opportunity for them still. But you're clearly seeing that's a strong segment and perhaps one of those segments that's not as economically sensitive as others. Yeah. If you're opening a hotel, if you're designing a hotel, if you're designing for a baby, you're in good shape. You're doing well right now. But, yeah, I think their numbers sort of show where the market is at right now. Yeah, absolutely. And worth paying attention to.

14:33And I'm so glad you mentioned about BDNY because they definitely did have a big presence there last year. And I'm guessing they will again this year. Moving on, we've got to talk about AI. Fred, everyone's favorite topic. Last week, Fred, you wrote about an AI conference. This week, you wrote about the five questions every designer should ask themselves about their AI usage. Where do we begin, Fred? Yeah, I have been writing a lot about AI recently. I'm sorry to readers of businessofhome.com, but there's been a lot of that on the site. The other week I did go to this conference. It was in Los Angeles, actually at the Pacific Design Center, thrown by Keith Granite, who we've had on the show before.

15:13And I think he might have even mentioned this conference when he was a guest on the show last. But he pulled together a bunch of speakers, people from Gensler, a guy from Microsoft, someone from the USC School of Architecture to sort of talk about what they're seeing with AI and their thoughts on it. But maybe just as important really was the conversations just among, you know, principals and, you know, the leaders of various design firms. That was basically the intent. That was the audience. It was about 85, you know, leaders of various design firms who got together in this workshop at the end of the conference and talked about like how they're actually using AI, what their hopes are, what their fears are.

15:49And that was, it was honestly, that was really fascinating just because, you know, I write about this a lot. I talk to designers individually, but to really be in one concentrated space and sort of feel the excitement, anxiety, dread, hope, joy around AI in one room was a very interesting experience to be sure. Yeah. And I wonder what rose to the top among all of those feelings, the fear, anxiety, but also people hopefully feeling that it's a useful tool in many ways. What were people saying and how are they feeling? Well, here comes the vibe shift, Dennis. I think we actually, no, I know it's a silly term, but I actually do think we are in something of a vibe shift in the design industry around AI, because I think for the first couple of years since ChatGPT debuted in 2022, it's been, oh, look at this interesting thing.

16:37And oh, won't this change everything? And, you know, but I'll deal with that in a couple of years. We'll put that off for now. I really feel like now there is a lot of very sincere hunger for education around AI. Obviously, everyone at this conference was really interested in it. But everywhere I go, people are either using AI, they think they should be using AI, they're hiring an AI coach, they're attending AI education, they're learning about it themselves, they're posting about it. I really feel like the adoption numbers have gone radically up and you really feel a sincere day-to-day granular interest in, okay, now this is not some theory, this is actually potentially useful in my firm and I'm trying to figure it out.

17:14That's kind of like the phase I feel like we're in and that really came throughout the conference. But I'm curious, like, would you agree with my somewhat silly thesis that we're in a vibe shift? What do you think about this? I very much agree. I mean, so many of the conversations that I have and so much of what I follow shows me people that are not only feeling like they should be using it, but there's almost this feeling of, well, if you're not, you're already meaningfully behind. And you go on, even social media, you go on and hear people talking who are in design-related industries talking about how they're using it as a tool and how far along in the process they are in making their offices more efficient with that usage.

17:55Yeah, I think that's kind of the moment we're in. And I think with a new moment comes a lot of new concerns or challenges, I guess, however you want to frame it. I mean, there's a lot of them. And I wrote this piece about the five questions every designer needs to ask themselves about AI. Here's my little plug. Go check it out on businesshome.com. I think they're all interesting. But in particular, one thing that really came out of the conference is this concern around privacy. And we've talked about this a little bit on the show before. But, you know, I think we've jokingly said, well, don't dump your credit card statement on ChatGPT, which I think is fairly obvious advice.

18:26But I think it's a real problem for a lot of these really high-end design firms because they want to use these tools. The most impactful way to use the tools is on your own data. but a lot of what your data is, is like a floor plan of your client's home or it's the purchases they've made or their address. And so there's a lot of concern about how can we maximize these tools while also preserving our client's privacy in a way that's safe. And also that the client is happy with, I think we're going to see a ton, like this is going to be a clause in NDAs here on out. Like you cannot plug this information into a chatbot or an LLM.

18:59And I also think it's worth just asking everyone in your firm, Hey, are you using these tools? because I think a lot of principals sort of find out after the fact that, oh, like the intern is actually plugging everything into chat GPT and you maybe don't want that. And I think, you know, now is the time to have the conversation in your firm. Like, what are you guys using? What should we be using? Let's come up with a plan. Let's get on the same page and take it from there. You know, the other issue that came up a lot, which was really interesting is that, you know, you and I have been talking like, of course you have to use these tools.

19:25Everybody has to do. This is what you got to do. But there's a lot of backlash around AI right now. And it's coming not only from clients, there's some clients who don't want AI involved in their project at all, or to use AI, but there's some people in firms. I mean, one designer told me that like, you know, she was trying to get her staff on board with, well, how can we use this tool? And, you know, one person really just stood up and said like, no, I refuse. This is environmentally degrading. This is more, I morally object to AI, like you can't make me use this. And I think those kinds of conversations are very real and will happen more and more as this becomes more and more of a conversation in the broader culture.

20:00Have you heard that at all too? Well, definitely. I mean, it's been fascinating to see the many commencement speeches around the country going on where the speaker gets up and tells the student body, hey, good news, AI is here and it's gonna be such a great tool. And they receive all these boos and negative feedback. Thank goodness I didn't include AI in my commencement address. You got the memo on that one. Well, did I think quickly on that one? But yeah, but I definitely think That's such a great indicator of the mood out there. Conversely, it's fascinating to see, and I had one of my sons was staying with me recently, and he works for a company where not only are you encouraged, but you are rewarded for your AI usage.

20:43And they are tracking your token usage quite carefully to make sure that everyone in the company is trying to be as efficient as possible. And so I think that there are several different messages going on out there. both are both are very interesting but i think internally and externally you might face resistance uh around the conversation of of ai usage yeah i mean i think we've entered a new a new era and it's a it's a messy one so i think a lot of it right now is less about answers and just asking the right questions which you will find in my article on business if we could refer you back to that fred nicolaus piece let me just read out the url right now and if you would that That'd be great.

21:24Yeah. What I'm excited about, honestly, is to get more into this conversation around the vibe shift. And when we think back to the conversation we had a few years back about the first Dibs survey showing that 9 % of designers were using it as a tool, I think we've come a long way, Fred. And you've played no small role in that. I'm sure. It's all my fault. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. But we've got to move on, Fred, because we've got to talk about beige. Beige. Classic pivot AI to beige. Many people consider AI the beige of technology, so I think it fits. Designer Oliver M. Firth, a veteran of the podcast, stirred up an online discussion last week after declaring that, quote, the American design scene is suffering from an epidemic of beigeness.

22:10Dennis, have you caught beige? Have you caught this epidemic of beige? I know that Oliver wouldn't allow me to. So I really I haven't I haven't gone with beige just for that reason. because he was so passionate when we had him on the show. And anyone who is familiar with Oliver's own home knows that it's not a place where beige can hide. Beige can run, but it can't hide. Yeah, I know. Exactly. And Oliver Frenzel is such a thoughtful, lovely guy to hear from. He made these comments on this House Beautiful series, these videos that they do, and he was talking about how color is sort of a luxury.

22:43And as always, it's great to hear from him, but it sort of jumped out to me because I actually kind of feel like, while I understand this complaint, and there's certainly a lot of beige out there. No argument on that front. I actually think we're over the hump. I think we're over peak beige. I think if you, you know, you and Caitlin were in High Point recently, you were talking about how there's so much more color there, which is a forward-looking indicator. At Salone, there was, I didn't see a ton of beige. I'm sure there was a little bit, but it was not the dominant theme there. And I'll just say, like, if you look at like retail collections popping up, you know, West Elm's recent collab with Emmer Chamberlain, there's a lot of like weird, interesting stuff going on there.

23:20I really feel like, you know, we are moving away from I think the epidemic is waning. I guess that's what I'm saying. What do you think? Well, I mean, I think you're right. But I also think that Oliver was also getting at a deeper problem, which is people's fear of their own personal expression. And I think he was using beige and gray as a way of saying, are you hiding yourself away a little bit and not being perhaps as playful, as colorful as you really are? And are you scared of what others might say or how people might perceive you if your place looked a little bit, again, a little, I don't want to say wacky, but just a little bit more playful?

24:14And I think color is partially about that. What do you think? Behind the beige veil. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, it's not just beige. It's the broader conversation. And I think Oliver's absolutely right about that. But I do think that's a problem. And I kind of think about, well, why might that be? And I think in some ways, I think back to the pandemic when we talked about, oh, it's such a good thing that people are sharing their homes on Instagram. Your home has become so much more part of your identity. That's a good thing for interior designers. That's a good thing for the home industry. And I think that it was.