The Thursday Show: RH's latest earnings report. Plus: A check-in from Copenhagen's 3 Days of Design

26:16It sounds like for the most part, though, most of the designers would like to be on this list. 100%. That's a big takeaway? Yeah. I think there is nothing like a stamp of approval that comes somewhat by surprise and lets you know that you are excellent among your peers. Let's be honest, we all want that pat on the back. But I think you sometimes look at it and you think, why am I not there? Or what would I have to do to get there? And maybe - What am I doing wrong? That's a little more complicated. What do you make of all these, Dennis? Well, I mean, I think the point about the PR discussion is an interesting one.

26:52And I've had some conversations off the record with some very well-known designers who are not on some of these lists. And they say, is it that I don't have a PR firm? Is it that I don't go to all these parties? is it that I'm aloof and don't leave the house? And I say, yes, yes, it actually is that. It's the third one, yeah. You've got to leave your house. You do need to actually appear more often in public. But no, I think between the conversation with Staline and Elisa and some of the conversations that we've had here, I mean, I think there are very clear steps that you could take to at least have a better shot of being on it if in fact it does mean something to you.

27:33I think it's fun when the issue comes out. is it the industry talking to itself? Sure, it's always been that to a degree, but how fun and how fun that the industry dressed up and Sean Henderson and Bunny Williams are holding onto some dogs. And I mean, right, what's not to love? I think there's something so perfect. I know you talked to Emma on Monday about how in America designers are the stars. People brag about their designers. And as I was listening to that, I was actually thinking of these spreads in the magazine And what a celebration it is of people in our industry and just of this work.

28:09And that really felt, it feels like the right approach to me. Yeah. No, no, I agree. I like this whole, you want to celebrate designers and put them up on a pedestal? I'm all for it. And then we get them on our podcasts, Caitlin, and then we talk about the realities of it all. Right? That's the way it's supposed to be. Moving on, similar topic that we're going to get into, design industry education. So for the New York Times this week, Anna Fixson wrote an article that outlined the differences between architects, designers, and decorators. For those in the industry, this may feel like a bit of a no-brainer, but how much do everyday consumers know about each role?

28:51And again, I came into this article thinking, really? Really? The New York Times reader needs an explanation of what an architect is relative to a designer? But it sounded more complicated than I first made it out to be. So what did you think? Well, I mean, to break it down a little bit, this article has the headline, truly, Is There a Difference Between Architects, Designers, and Decorators? It opens with this lovely anecdote about Naz Nazawa being a career switcher who was nervous to call herself a designer. Mostly, I think, out of actually respect and reverence for the profession, for the job title, and how her mindset evolved as her firm became more established.

29:33From there, it touches on the types of licenses that your professionals might have or need. And it takes a light tour through this sort of always touchy decorator versus designer debate. before concluding with a reminder to do your homework before hiring a design professional. It's a funny article because I have a feeling, Dennis, that you and I both read this and were like, these are lovely quotes from designers that we love. And also I learned zero things, right? Like if you are doing this work, if you're in this corner of the world, none of this was revelatory. But the fact that this article needs to exist, I think speaks to maybe, you know, I think Dennis, you and I both talk to designers day in and day out who are trying to articulate just how much work it is that they're doing to articulate what exactly it is they do to clients.

30:22And I think this article is maybe a really interesting take on trying to trying to define this really slippery, make of it what you want it to be profession. And so in that way, it's actually a really interesting thought starter. Masquerading is what I thought was the most obvious article I'd ever read in my life. Well, I mean, again, I feel like, A, are we doing enough to support interior designers and to clarify, to your point, all of the hard work that they do? And Fred and I often on the show, we have these discussions about service pieces or the role that the design media industry at large has played over the decades of just explaining a lot of things to the end user?

31:12Or not explaining a lot of things. Well, or I mean, that's the question. So is part of the reason that this article needs to exist is because there's still not enough clarity around these specific roles? or again, is it, so Nas and I were in communication, as you say, she's referenced in this article. She and I were having a DM communication about this article and talking about the fact that the issue that still does sometimes come up is the question of, do I need to hire an architect and a designer? And do I need a contractor? And do I need a landscape? And all of that, You know, what's the team that I need to bring on and what are their different roles and is there meaningful overlap?

31:59Can somebody be substituted for somebody else? Can an interior designer with a license or some other kind of accreditation be a replacement for an architect or some other role? That seemed like a legitimate conversation. Well, and I think the answer to all of those questions is it depends, right? Who did you hire? Who are you bringing on to this job? What are their credentials? One of the cool things about this industry is that you can kind of amass all of these different specialties, or you can choose not to, and you can get super focused on the one thing you feel your firm does really well. And there's so much freedom in that.

32:34But I think it's also, that's really confusing for the end consumer, right? I think there's a lot of fear hiring design professionals in doing the wrong thing, because when you make a mistake, it's very expensive. And I imagine even just getting the pros onto the job before you've like brainstormed a single thing, just assembling your team is actually a place where you can make a lot of really expensive mistakes. No, exactly. I mean, and I think one of the big takeaways from this is that there still needs to be greater clarity. There's an opportunity to much more clearly define what it is designers do.

33:13And again, I look at you, ASID, and I look at some of these other organizations and I say, what are we doing on that front to just create some more common language? Which even Emma Sims-Hilditch brought up the fact that even in Britain, they have the same challenge of lots of different firms, have lots of different ways of charging. That's still one of the biggest obstacles. And again, that's still the opportunity for some to step in and say, well, we make it pretty clear what we charge because here it is. So I don't know. But I mean, this piece, which I was ready to be all snarky about, and instead I thought, you know, let's keep talking about this because we do need greater clarity in the industry.

33:54I'm glad you agree with that, Caitlin. I do. Yeah, good. All right. Well, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including how to get performance reviews right and advice from Sean Lowe on leveling up while staying small. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

34:16We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Lalloy. For over 20 years, Lalloy has been driven by strong foundations, a belief in beauty, a commitment to collaboration, and the quiet conviction that things made well and with purpose have the power to provide comfort for generations. From product designs until the moment a rug arrives at your door, At Lolloy, we're all woven together. Learn more at lolloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-Y rugs.com. And follow at Lolloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok.

34:59And we're back. I'm joined now all the way from Copenhagen by Business of Homes executive editor, Fred Nikolaus. Fred! Hi, Dennis. It's funny to be on the guest side of the microphone here. Yes, it's a pleasure to have you on the show today, Fred. Thanks so much for making the time. I know it's late for you. It is. It's 11 o 'clock here in Copenhagen. But the sun has not yet set, so here I am. You're no stranger to this fair city, am I right? Listeners may know that Dennis had a Scandinavian furniture store back in the ancient days, right? Yes, my early furniture training was at what used to be the Scandinavian Furniture Fair, which used to be held in Copenhagen or Copenhagen.

35:45What's your preference there? Hagen or Hagen? I don't know. I'm going to sound silly either way. I tried Hagen to be fancy, but I'm sure our Danish listeners are already correcting me on that one. I feel Hans Christian Andersen used to say Hagen, so maybe I should go with that. I don't know. But yes, I used to spend a lot of time there because that was really the Scandinavian furniture capital. They did away with that show over time, but it's a great city, and I'm so excited for you to be there. It's a wonderful city, and I'm podcasting live from the Royal SAS Hotel, which is now a Radisson, but I'm not sure if you're familiar with that one, but it's in some ways the birthplace of Danish modernism.

36:24Arne Jakobsen designed many pieces for Fritz Hansen that are in the lobby. And so I'm fully a Danish furniture historian now at this point. Clearly. Yes. I'm honestly, I'm very Copenhagen-pilled. It is a wonderful city. Several people have described it to me as the biggest village in the world. And I think that very much holds true. It's a city, but it feels very intimate and small and charming on almost every block. So you're there for three days of design, and we should tell people what that is, why you're there. Why am I here? Yes. Well, three days of design is a design festival here in Copenhagen, and it started in 2013.

37:04Very small. It's just a few brands exhibiting at a warehouse together. And I think that the prior design festival had been canceled in the years past, and so there was this desire to sort of restart Denmark on the international design scene. But it's grown a lot. I mean, in the course of, you know, just over 10 years, it's become, you know, really a fixture on the international design calendar. It's rapidly grown in size over the past few years and has become one of many places to see and be seen. Well, it's funny, and we'll get to this, but hilariously, so often when you talk about three days of design, people often say, well, is it too popular already?

37:39Are too many people coming? And is it replacing everything else? What did it start out being, and how did it get to be such a popular show? Well, like I said, at the beginning, it was just a showcase for a few Danish brands. And in the early years, it grew, but not exponentially. You know, no one has really been able to give me a super precise answer as to why it's gotten so big over the past five years. Some of the speculation is that in 2022, sort of in the COVID hangover period, Salone had to move their show from April to June. And Three Days of Design, obviously, is in June. So the speculation was that people just stayed over from Salone.

38:19And, you know, because they're in Europe anyway, they went to, why not? Such a good time. Sure. Yes, they were high on the Aperol Spritzes and on the Negronis. And they decided to make their way up to Copenhagen. And, you know, and Salone, I think, is kind of part of the discussion of why three days has gotten so popular, because, of course, and we've talked about this on the show, there's a lot of chatter that Salone has become sort of overrun with fashion brands that it's become overcrowded. There's a line to get into everything. The fair itself has its own issues. And so there's a desire to have another big fair in Europe that's a little more low key, a little more intimate, a little more palatable.

38:57and, you know, their three days was. And a lot of people have sort of transferred their affection from Milan to Copenhagen. That has certainly been the tenor of a lot of conversations I've been having today. Well, so does the town feel overrun by the show? I mean, are all the hotels filled? Are the streets crowded? I mean, does it have that sort of, all the issues, to your point, that people raise about Milan? Oh, you have to wait online for everything just to see a chair in a church? I mean... Yeah, I mean, I think that is kind of like the fundamental tension and I'll be writing a story about this next week.

39:28So hopefully I won't scoop myself too much here. But yeah, people love this show because it occupies this kind of Goldilocks zone. You know, Copenhagen is a big enough city. It has a very rich design history with Fritz Hansen and Carl Hansen and Finn Ewell and all those companies, but it's not too big and it's not too hyped. And so people really like that. It's exactly in the middle, right in the sweet spot. And some of the concern is that, you know, it's going to become too popular, Too many people are going to do it, and it's going to suffer from some of the same problems as Milan. It's interesting.

39:59A lot of the conversations I've been having here today are people saying, I hope the fashion brands don't find out about this. There's a sense of Gucci is just outside the castle gates, and we can't let them in. So I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure. I didn't wait in many lines today. It still felt very intimate. It's crowded. I mean, it's Copenhagen in the summer, and so it's already sort of a tourist destination. And it can be difficult to tell. Everyone here is so stylish. So it's hard to know who's going to the show as opposed to just wandering about. But it's interesting. There have been many people who have told me, oh, this will probably be the last good year.

40:36I certainly think we're a ways from that. But the hotels are booked up. It feels like something that has certainly reached a new phase of popularity and busyness. Well, and I'm so glad that you could be there for the peak before it all goes down. All downhill after Fred from Business of Home. Exactly. Fred came to town and then they closed it down afterwards. I mean, are there a lot of brand activations? Are there a lot of companies that we talk about? I saw smoke appearing over what appeared to be a Pierre Frey sofa in one image. I mean, are there a lot of interesting activations? with Pierre Frey or was it white smoke being released?

41:17You know, I think it is a very different show from Saloni in that regard. There are, you know, of course brands are doing things, but it doesn't quite have the sense of spectacle that you might get in Milan. There are interesting activations. There are, you know, Hay fills up their house and turns it into a restaurant and that's very cool. And there's this old Odd Fellows Palace that gets turned into an exhibition hall of sorts, but it is a little bit more low key. I think it's just sort of in the national character of Denmark and particularly of Danish design to be a little bit more about very slow evolutionary steps.

41:53The big heritage brands, they don't get a hyped artist from the international scene to build a giant head of Karl Hansen to put in the parking lot. It's a lot more very fine refinements made to a classic design. And one of the interesting things about the show actually is that, you know, it's not a place where everyone releases new product. You know, certainly Fritz Hansen has released a few new products. Carl Hansen has released a few new products. But a lot of the brands that show at these other big international festivals have already released new things at Neocon, for example, or something new at Saloni or Milan.

42:29And, you know, several people told me that part of the reason for that is that, you know, you put this product out and then immediately people go on vacation. You know, everyone in Sweden is going to the midsummer holiday. You know, there's a lot of summer holidays in Europe. They take their summer vacations very seriously here. And so there's a sense of no one's in the mood to, you know, plop down, you know, tens of thousands of dollars on a big order or anything like that. So it's been described to me as a show more about, you know, relationships than spectacle. And at least in my experience, that's been true.

42:59But I have not yet seen this smoke over Pierre Frey. So maybe you're more in tune with Three Days than I am at the moment. Well, I know that Ben Reinhardt from El Decor has been running around with you in some places. I think it's something that I saw on Ben's social. Yes, Ben let me take a picture of him for his Instagram, which was definitely an honor. That was a heavy responsibility. But I wonder from the coverage perspective, I mean, so often it was come to Copenhagen to be inspired and it was less about seeing, to your point, a lot of product and more about, oh, let us show you the process.

43:39Let us get you inspired and tell you sort of more about our story. Is it a lot of that? I think that's absolutely right. And I think one of the big changes in getting a higher profile, more brands and more attendees is that I think historically it was a way to get into the Scandinavian market. And that's still the case for some brands that are showing. You have a Swedish brand who wants to be in Denmark or you have a brand from Southern Europe that wants to be in Scandinavia. And they come here specifically to target that audience. But what has changed is that there's like a lot of international, you know, there's an international audience for the show.

44:11There's people from South Korea, people, certainly a lot of people from America. I saw a lot of familiar faces in the streets today, people from Australia. And so people come to three days to be introduced to an international audience and build relationships sort of on an international level. and as you were saying it's more a sense of being inspired meeting people setting up a connection that they hope will pay off later you know it's not a transactional show like high point maybe used to be um it's also interesting too another another kind of strange component of it is that unlike a lot of shows that have been built up over the years there's no one uh central fair like it's not like icff which anchors new york design week or you know salone which anchors Milan Design Week.

44:53It's a very dispersed festival. And I think that people, certainly brands like that because they don't have to spend all this money to build up a giant exhibition only to tear it down a week later. It's less expensive. People come to them. You also get these more interesting activations like people rent out what wouldn't be a jewelry boutique normally and turn it into an exhibition. So you get lots of interesting things like that. A lot of people were telling me this is the new model for trade shows. It's not a giant festival that costs a lot of money. and is unsustainable. And, you know, it's more about, you know, occupying a city.

45:27So, you know, they may be saying that just simply because that's where we are. That's what's exciting to them at the moment. But I do sense there's a little bit of momentum around that, for sure. Well, as you and I have talked about, when I was in London, and I was with some German and French press, we had this discussion about Milan versus Deco off in Paris in January, and thinking about how people wanted to line up their calendars and whether, as we've just been talking about, whether Milan was getting too crowded or too much and they were looking for some show that felt easier, more manageable.

46:04I don't know if Copenhagen is rising to that. I also don't know if it's a show where we imagine the same level of designer participation as we see at Deco Off in Paris, for example. Yeah, no, that's a good point. I haven't seen that many American interior designers in the streets here. I've seen a few and I've spoken to a few and I think that they, you know, see this as a little bit of, you know, an opportunity to connect with a brand that might be unknown in the States. So there are some designers here for sure. But I think it's, you know, in as much as it comes at a convenient time outside of the, you know, the buzz of Saloni and High Point, it's also in the summer and a lot of designers are, you know, on summer vacation or are dealing with their kids.

46:48And so it is difficult, I think, to make it out here during this time. You know, I think American designers are a desirable audience. And I think that certainly, like, brands come here hoping to connect with those designers. And it certainly did happen. I spoke to a few people who, you know, said they were connecting with Americans at the fair. It's also, you know, the American press is here. You mentioned Ben Reynert. Hannah Martin from AD is here as well. A lot of the design media. Fred Nicholos. I mean, the big guns. The big guns are there. Yeah. Yeah, that's when you know it's over. It's too late.

47:18David Michon, of course. So what would be a Thursday show if we don't shout out for scale? So really, you know, the international design press is here. So even if the streets are not crowded with American designers, I think the American press is here. And I suspect next year, there'll be more designers. Well, I guess that's my question. I mean, is it the kind of show that designers should be hearing about and should be coming to in a big way and getting perhaps a dose of something that feels a little different than what they're normally encountering at shows. Well, it's a little bit difficult because I've been here for a day and I already want to stay for like, you know, when you're talking to someone who's been wined and dined and is, you know, really - Yeah, it's hard to leave.

47:57I'm, you know, come one, come all, I say. But I, you know, there are brands here that you see that were not at all familiar to me. And I think, you know, it's also a place to connect more deeply with the Danish brands. You know, I know Carl Hansen, I know Fritz Hansen, but when you actually come here and - Sure, I know the Hansen, sure. I know the Hansons, the Hanson twins, as they're called. These are brands that I think a lot of American designers know. But when you really come and experience them in their showrooms and you really see what they can do, you deepen your understanding of what they do.

48:29And then you get these cool, buzzy, little, interesting, artsy Scandinavian brands that you probably would not have access to in the American market. So I certainly think it's worth coming to. But again, keep in mind, American listeners, I have had a very fun 48 hours. So, you know, maybe take my advice with a grain of salt. But it is buzzy. It is hyped. And there are things to see here that you can't see anywhere else for sure. And as we said earlier, I mean, it is a very inspiring city. Great design is all around. Plus, I mean, if you've been meaning to pick up some George Jensen silver, I mean, by the way, hopefully you got the list of things I want you to pick up at George Jensen before you leave.

49:06I'll try and make a point of that. I did go buy some vintage pepper grinders today. So I've got that collection going, yeah. Okay, well, that's not quite the George Jensen list that I want you to pick up. But more on that later. Let's talk about brands and what you have seen and what's interesting that's going on from that perspective. Yeah, well, you know, like I said, it's not exactly a show where people debut tons of new stuff. And I also think that as much as this fair is on the rise, everyone I've spoken to has said, yeah, you know, the macro economy is not where we want it to be. they're all of course you know nervous about american tariffs they do affect these european brands even if it is just the 10 you know a lot of them also have to deal with steel and aluminum tariffs so you know all of them are a little bit in kind of conservative mode and none of them are debuting you know tons and tons of new products so what has been interesting is that you know while there are brands and aesthetics and colors and looks that you get here that are very unique a lot of the companies are doing similar things as american companies like for example outdoor is very heavily emphasized here.

50:11Almost every brand, even the sort of the more stoic heritage Danish brands have a big outdoor presence, which is really interesting. Another thing that's popular is, you know, portable lighting. That is a huge category. Every brand is releasing some cool new take on portable lighting that is clearly working here in Europe as it is in America. So I suspect we'll see a lot more of that in the American market. And it's kind of fun to see how each brand does its own little thing. You know, Fritz Hansen has a very sort of conservative, you know, very elegantly designed portable light. And then Tom Dixon has this one called Pose that's all chrome steel.

50:44It's very showy. So it's cool to see what each brand brings to the form factor because it is very clearly a popular in thing and everyone's trying it. In that market, is part of that an environmental push? And I feel like green design is spoken about much more in Scandinavia and other European countries than it is here in the US. Is that a big theme or not really? No, it is. And it's interesting you should say that because that's been another big theme of these conversations is that, you know, you get so used to having these conversations in America where everyone feels a little bit cynical about sustainability and people talk about greenwashing more than they talk about actual, you know, sustainability practices.

51:25And, you know, here they take it very seriously. And there's a real sense of putting your money where your mouth is. You see brands actually making decisions around sustainability as opposed to just putting it in a marketing document. It's cool to see that. People are genuinely enthusiastic about it. I went to a presentation at Hay today and they were talking about, there was this designer who was explaining how they were designing what looked like a very upholstered chair, but was made out of this special technical fabric that is just stretched in such a way that doesn't require any foam padding inside, which is very ingenious.

51:59A lot of brands have kind of these resale or reuse programs. Fritz Hansen has one where you can turn in a chair and they'll fix it for you in a variety of ways. It is kind of inspiring to meet people who actually are serious about sustainability because sometimes you feel a little bit crazy talking about it, but they are making waves over here. Hopefully, we'll catch up. Well, you feel as though the people themselves are living it when you're over there. Well, yeah. Well, that's the thing. Like the consumer wants it. You know what I mean? I was having this conversation with a couple Danish people the other day, and they were talking about sustainability in this very earnest tone.

52:36And I was saying, well, ha ha, you know, brands are – I was kind of bringing like a cynical take. And they're like, what do you mean? Of course we should save the earth. And I'm like, yes, we should. You're right. Like I said, I've been very Copenhagen-pilled, Dennis. Yeah. No, no, no. you're going to come back transformed. I can tell. I'm going to ride my bike back to America. I can't wait to see what other issues are suddenly going to be important to you. Well, I'm glad that you've had this experience. It sounds like it's had a big impact and it sounds like it was very worthwhile you going over there and seeing this show.

53:08It's a lovely show. And, you know, I'm not just saying that because I'm in a good Copenhagen mood. I think it is definitely worth going to. And hopefully this won't actually be the last good year. I suspect it will not. Well, we look forward to having you back, but we very much appreciate you hopping on very late for you. So I'm going to let you get to bed, but thank you. Thank you, Dan. It's great to be here.

53:32And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Caitlin, what caught your eye? What caught my eye is the collaboration of two Junes Point Capital brands. A flooring company, luxury flooring company Stanton announced a licensed carpet collection with none other than Kravit. It's a 91 SKU collection of carpet, rugs, stair runners. It comes out in July. And according to the release, it is designed to accelerate high-end business for a select group of Stanton distributors.

54:06Kravit was acquired by Dunes Point Capital in late 2024. Stanton had been added to their portfolio in 21. And so I just thought it was really interesting to see how that shared ownership, you know, is kind of tiptoeing into some new synergies for these two brands. Yes, we'll have to dive into that and see what these synergies actually are there. That's interesting. Dennis, what caught your eye this week? Well, a couple of things caught my eye. One of them being Bernie DeLacuña's beautiful new showroom at 200 Lex, which is quite impressive. and it drew attention to the fact that if you ride the elevators at the New York Design Center these days, you'll see a big listing of the many, many textile offerings that are now on hand at 200 Lex.

54:55And for so long, Caitlin, I feel that so many in the industry said, yeah, yeah, the New York Design Center, but, you know, they don't have the fabric brands, so are people really going to be going there? And suddenly... They do now. Boy, they have a lot of fabric brands and Tebow coming at the end of the summer. Schumacher earlier this year. Well, exactly. And so and our friend Peter Dunham opening up there. Lauren Huston's got a Wells Abbot outpost. Rose Uniac is there. I mean, there's just a wide array. So I sort of feel as though everybody was wondering what the outcome of some of the Charles Cohen slash D &D building uncertainty would be.

55:33And it seems to clearly be that many more people are going to be moving to the New York Design Center. And we'll see what that means longer term. But congrats to Bernie on that beautiful new showroom of hers. The other thing that caught my eye rather unexpectedly, because usually I'm pretty harsh on this company too. But Wayfair, believe it or not, has actually doubled in share price since the Liberation Day lows, as we refer to them, back in April. So 100 % move in the past few weeks. And that was pretty striking. I wondered how much of that is tied to the fact that in just a couple of short weeks, the first ever Paragold location will be opening in Houston.

56:23Could it possibly be excitement around this new location? I don't know. What do you think? I mean, I think it's going to be interesting to see how Wayfair merchandise is, this much higher end product, what it's learned from one year in business in the North Shore of Chicago with its first ever store. What do you expect from the assortment that's going to be popping up in Houston? Do you honestly, I'm really scratching my head about this one. Okay, same. And I will tell you that when you ask Gary Freedom about it, he laughs his head off and says, yeah, good luck. I mean, to me, that is the only sort of reasonable competitor in a space where a bunch of the high point brands could come together and in some meaningful way compete with him.

57:11We'll have to see. I'm quite tempted to head down to Houston, as hot as it will be at the end of June, to check it out just because I'm really curious. But I'm eager to reach out to a lot of the Hypo and companies and see who's going to be there. But listen, there's another one coming sometime shortly after that, if I recall, in Florida. So we'll have to see. But Paragold, a name that Wayfair doesn't talk about very often, is in fact going to have a big retail presence. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

57:52If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.