The Thursday Show: RH's rough day on Wall Street. Plus: Designers are embracing the renovation boom

24:23It's a dramatic sounding music. It was a dramatic video. I have to say, as soon as I saw that video, I was like, oh, this doesn't seem like a good, you know, if you're sort of contextualizing the numbers with a 20-minute film at the beginning of the call, I don't know that these numbers are going to be great. And indeed, they weren't. It was the fourth quarter for RH. They were also looking back at their full year. Just to quickly go over the numbers, the earnings per share in the fourth quarter were$1.53, which was significantly below the analyst's expectation of$2.21. They missed on, the revenue is up, but they missed that number as well.

24:58And I think almost just as worryingly, they didn't seem quite as optimistic about the first half of 2026. They projected revenue shrinking, actually, revenue dropping in the first quarter of 2026. And, you know, while there was this sort of slightly more optimistic look for the whole year, you know, it was less than what analysts thought was going to happen. And so these were just all around pretty negative numbers. And Wall Street really did not like them. You know, as that video was playing and the piano music was getting dramatic, the stock was dropping in real time. The stock was dropping like a stone.

25:31Yeah. So this was definitely not a good quarter. What did you make of the call and what's going on with the numbers? Well, it was a quarter that Wall Street was preparing for in a very negative way. And you and I had been talking recently on previous shows about where some of these stocks were relative to even where they had been just a few months earlier. And we saw Wall Street marking down the shares of a lot of the home-related companies. And RH, many had borrowed shares so they could sell them and hope to buy them back at a lower price known as short selling. And they had been playing a lot in the options market, suggesting there was going to be a big move.

26:13And there clearly was. Wall Street was clearly very negative going into this number. What was interesting was clearly they hadn't been negative enough. So the fact that the stock dropped about 20 % going into the earnings call suggested that there just weren't buyers willing to step in. And as we've talked about repeatedly on the show, we already know how much RH is spending. They talked a great deal about how 2025 was the year of the big investments that they were making, hundreds of millions of dollars going into the European expansion, the acquisitions that they made and all of that. And so they said, yeah, we recognize we're spending a lot of money and we're operating on pretty thin cash flow here because they're also having to spend in 2025.

27:05They spent close to a quarter of a billion dollars just on interest payments for the debt. So it's a company that stretched pretty thin. You know, I think everybody kind of already, you know, everybody knows RH spends a lot of money on parties and building out galleries. That wasn't a surprise. But when you see those debt payments, when you see revenue expectations go down, when you see really the real impact of tariffs and the snow seem to have an effect on them as well, you know, the forward looking picture gets a little less rosy. And I sort of felt like you really saw Gary Friedman on this call more than ever trying to explain, you know, listen, I I understand that this is a weird time like this is we're spending a lot of money and it's a terrible time for the home industry.

27:45There was a little more investor empathy than I feel like there normally is on the call. What do you make of that? Well, and as you say, I mean, I think the showmanship that he tries to bring and the video was really about, let me show you all of the incredible things that are coming. And we'll talk about the new collection that he's leaning heavily into and hoping is going to be the biggest introduction in the company's history. but also showing you a lot of new locations and even some new designs for what future locations are going to look like and really just bring you along and tell you the amazing things that are going to be happening in about three years if we can get out of this mess that we're in.

28:29Well, but even some of the new stuff was sort of couched in the language of we'll be spending less. It was like, we built all these incredible locations and now we're done. and the next locations we're going to build are all one story. So we're going to have to work. They're going to be easier and cheaper to build. So, you know, and he even said we might be debt free by 2029, which I certainly think was music to a lot of people's ears, if that can come true. So, you know, I do think there was like this, you know, recognition that they're in a weird spot. So that was interesting to see. But let's talk about this collection a little bit.

29:00You know, this was also the big debut of this new thing they're rolling out called RH Estates. I think you actually kind of accidentally broke the news of that name a few months ago on a call. But this is their big play for the traditional market. What did you make us sort of the first glimpse at RH Estates? Well, it was interesting because Gary Friedman blurted out the name on a previous call and that everyone's hush-hush. And then they talked to us quite a bit about it when Caitlin and I were in Paris and we were somewhat sworn to secrecy. And so they finally were able to talk about it in a much more open way.

29:37And obviously, we knew that they had acquired Dennis and Lean and Formations and Michael Taylor. And we knew that what they wanted to do was to really bring a huge traditional offering into the mix. They've been teasing this for quite a long time, and this is finally coming out in addition to talking about what they're going to do with Dimitri in terms of bespoke and in terms of all of their custom capabilities. So there was a lot that they were talking about this estate's rollout. They're really thinking of even very specific locations where they're going to bring this. And it sounds like I'm going to be spending a lot of time in Greenwich, Connecticut, because there's going to be a huge buildout in Greenwich, Connecticut, where honestly estates seems to make a whole heck of a lot of sense.

30:24There's a lot of actual estates there. Exactly. And I think they've known that they've been overly indexed in Modern. He's talked about this repeatedly. and so he's excited to finally be able to say that this product is coming and so is the big source book for it. And so that was a big topic of conversation. What did you make of it? Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely not someone who should be weighing in on stylistic matters, so I'm going to have to plead the fifth a little bit. I thought it was cool. I thought it was a good look. You know, I think, you know, as Gary Friedman says, 60 % of the homes and high-end homes in America are sort of traditional leaning in terms of architecture.

31:02so they should have traditional furniture to go in them. And a lot of it seemed like it was based around Michael Taylor and Formations and Denison Lean, and they're obviously very good companies. So, you know, the first look seemed pretty cool. It was also interesting how much he was talking about designers as a customer. I never thought I would hear Gary Friedman say the word COM on an earnings call, but he was talking about how, you know, they want, I think what they're doing is they're taking the, you know, Joseph Jupe, the furniture manufacturer, and Dimitri that they bought a few years back, and they want to develop like a couture upholstery program that they want, you know, designers to shop from.

31:34And so, you know, it definitely seemed like there was a very clear play to, you know, offer things to the trade. And I think, you know, that was certainly interesting. It caught my ear for sure. Yeah. And we've been talking on the show quite a bit how many of the high point brands, they've discovered this is their huge market, the trade. Clearly, I think he realizes from both a price point perspective and an aesthetic perspective, he needs to court this market more. What did you make, lastly, of the hires? There were two big ones announced actually just a couple days before the call. One of them was our friend Veronica Schnitzel of American Leather.

32:12I thought she's been there for how many years? 24 years at American Leather? I know. I know. Amazing manufacturing executive and just general executive altogether. I thought she would never leave. She's headed over to our age. What did you make of that one? Yeah, I mean, so as you say, two big moves. Veronica, it was interesting to see her move in the context of, hey, let's become more vertically integrated. Hey, let's get our arms around our manufacturing. And maybe this suggests, I think it does, that what more can we be doing in the US? What more can we be bringing to these shores? and really what more can we do to get out of the way of whatever the heck is going to happen in the future with tariffs and issues overseas, clearly.

32:58Yeah, definitely. And who better to do it than Veronica? Couldn't agree more. There was also another big hire of David Stanchak, the real estate guy. What'd you make of that one? Not just a real estate guy. Sorry, David. Yeah, yeah, no, no. And in David's case, a welcome home. He's a longtime RH employee and he's a man with a mission. He's the one who's got to raise some serious money for this company, because as we talked about with the with the debt payments and the very low cash on hand at our age at the moment, David's job is starting today. I need you to liquidate some of these assets and as quickly as you get.

33:32I mean, so they made it very clear that they've got some buildings that they're going to be getting rid of. It sounded like some of their aspirations in Aspen were going to be dialed back a bit. We're good. We got some some property to sell you there. We got a building in Madrid that's priced to move. I mean, there was let's they sounded like they needed to raise a couple hundred million dollars in real estate transactions. And so I don't think that I don't think that David is going to be sitting around for very long in his new job. I guess just sort of in wrapping this up, you know, we like to talk about RH a lot, I think, just because it's a fascinating company.

34:04But I do think like part of the reason why we talk about the company so much is because it is kind of a bellwether for the high end of the of the home industry in the interior design world. It's, you know, I think their customer is the same customer as a lot of interior designers, and they can be sort of a canary in the coal mine for what's going to happen with everybody else's business. This was obviously not a great day for them on Wall Street, and they do have a lot of challenges right now. What can people take away from this call? Is this a sign that overall the high end of the industry is maybe in for a rough patch?

34:34Is this just an RH thing and they've spent so much money and that's what's the problem? How should the average designer or person running a brand take RH's bad day on Wall Street? Interestingly, I mean, if you spun this in a very positive direction, and listen, unfortunately, as we've talked about, RH has sort of one arm tied behind its back because it does have this huge debt burden. And sadly, it's a self-inflicted wound. Interestingly, so much of what they're doing is actually growing and working, and they have a lot better numbers than many in the industry when you get below the surface of some of these numbers.

35:09But I think what they're showing you is that there is a lot of enthusiasm around this space, and clearly they're tapping into a lot of luxury customers that I think aren't coming to the trade in a more traditional way. And so perhaps that's a huge opportunity there. We'll see. But they're very focused on designers. And so once again, I think there is opportunity to be found there. What's your sense? Well, I think my cop-out answer is that it's kind of both. I mean, I think they are in a little bit of a trap of their own making just because of the debt, as you mentioned, and because they also just spend a lot of money.

35:49And so that shows up on the balance sheet. There's a lot about this that's just specific to RH. But I do think part of all of this is just the weird moment we're in. You know, it is a really weird time. The tariffs still matter. You know, a war is making nobody feel secure and excited to buy a home and furnish it right now. We've known this for a long time, and I think the affluent have continued to buy anyway. But I do think we're just entering into this very, very uncertain time. And I think that to some degree, that's magnified by the particulars of the company that RH is. But I do think we're in a weird time.

36:24And that's part of the reason why the stock took such a beating. So I don't know if that's the most optimistic way to end the show on. We can talk about something more fun. But I think there's a little bit of both sides of the equation to take away from this one. What I will say in wrapping it up is RH continues to remind you that you can build awfully exciting retail experiences and people will come. And I think we've been talking throughout this show, everybody who is raising money in one way or another is using a chunk of it to create more physical locations. And so you don't hear them talking about VR or digital experiences.

37:02And I think that's a huge message as well. And often we talk about design centers and their future. To me, hearing all of this about physical spaces being so important to sell furniture makes me think that things are pretty good for the future of a lot of the landscape around interior design. So that's an optimistic spin that I will leave on that one. There we go. All right. We got that. That's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the latest showroom openings and a profile of a new site that wants to take on Pinterest. But first, a quick break.

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38:32where you can also connect with a sales rep or find the showroom nearest you.

38:42And we're back. I'm joined now by Jamie Seabury, who holds two titles, one, the vice president of Green Row and also the vice president of Williams-Sonoma Home, which I'm eager to talk about both of those brands. But Jamie, welcome to the show. Thank you. So glad to have you. And you and I had the pleasure of walking through the very first retail store for Green Row not too long ago. Congratulations on that. Thank you. And thanks for stopping by. It was such a fun surprise. Well, I'm so glad that I could. And before we talk about all of that, I want to take a step back, talk a little bit about your background and career and the development of Green Row is an interesting one to me.

39:32So I want to get into that. What were you doing? Where did you come from? Tell me. Well, I always say I started in retail when I got my driver's license. I got a job at the Gap and that started it. and I guess when I graduated college, I didn't know what I was doing, but I knew I wanted to move to San Francisco. I had lined up a GAP training program and I was researching other companies in San Francisco and turns out Williams-Sonoma was based here. I went on the website, researched Chuck Williams and realized that he was going to be at a book signing in Boston where I live. And so I just put on a suit, brought my resume, which wasn't very impressive, to the book signing and introduced myself to Chuck Williams and said, I would love to work for your company.

40:17And he took my resume, put it in his pocket. And he said, are you sure you want to move to San Francisco? It's really expensive. And I said, I definitely do. So two and a half weeks later, after my roommate and I zigzagged across the country, I called and I said, oh, hey, Chuck Williams turned in my resume. The next thing you know, I'm in for an interview. And I started at Pottery Barn and the rest is history. And Chuck, he was so amazing. He was always at the office and he remembered me and he remembered the story. So I was in Pottery Barn for six years and then I left to go to Anthropologie for a little bit.

40:51I did their first home catalog and then I came back to the West Coast and did Shabby Chic and I always stayed in touch with Laura Alba who's the CEO and she on my last day said you're Miss Pottery Barn you'll be back and so yes so she was right she came to me with this opportunity to start a sustainable brand within Williams-Sonoma. And I thought, what an amazing opportunity, but top secret. I was in an office back by the Mark and Grab photo studio. I had to keep the shades shut for samples coming in. And for a while, it was just me and Laura. And then we were able to slowly hire a tiny, tiny team.

41:27There was about two of us for a while, and then it became four. And then slowly, we started getting closer to the launch. And right before we launched the Williams Sonoma Home merchandising and product development position opened up and she was like, can you do that too? And I said, sure. So I've been working on that too since Green Rail launched. Well, so I love all of the secrecy. And if I remember, it had a code name, Project Green. Yeah, the Green Project was the Green Project. and it was all sort of hush hush. And what was the brief that you were given about what it was you were ultimately going to build?

42:07Well, Laura has always, you know, Williams-Sonoma does such a great job around sustainability. We have a whole team. We have a vendor community that does a great job. And so we've always been innovative in packaging, in materials, obviously in our sourcing structure. But this was a way to really start from scratch and do everything the right way because it's hard to go back once you've gone forward. And even though we do a lot of things the right way, her goal for me was to figure out a way to do everything. And we're maniacal about it. There's no plastic unless it's recycled. Same with polyester.

42:45There's nothing on any product that you will find that we feel like we didn't vet out and figure out the best material to use. So, you know, post-COVID, it was an opportunity to really get into growth and how do you incubate a small brand within a big brand? And, you know, if it was any other company, you know, just on my own, I could have probably done this. But with the resources of Williams-Sonoma's Sourcing Network, we have an amazing international sourcing team. We have a great group of vendors. And, you know, I traveled around the world and met with these vendors and they were all, you know, under NDA.

43:20And I was saying, we need to do this with packaging. And I said, oh my God, all of these people are going to want to kill me. And they were all like, Jamie, this is the wave of the future. Like, we're so excited to be a part of this. So it was also something where I did a lot of research and all the sustainable brands, first of all, didn't meet the full home. Like they didn't go from bedroom to kitchen to, you know, kids rooms even. And they were all kind of boring, like very bland and neutral. And it was the end of COVID. And it just felt like a good time to be more whimsical, joyful, and optimistic.

43:54You know, it was like, decorate your house, you know, with joy and with color and print and pattern. So we figured out how to incorporate color and pattern in a natural way and do it in an eco-friendly way using like upcycled materials for patchwork quilts, things like that. So it became its own aesthetic in the portfolio. while at the same time, I always say, I think I said this to you in the store, it's like the good earth markets here in the Bay Area. When you go in, you know everything has been vetted and it's all good for you. You don't have to think about it. And that's what we want Green Road to be, is this really our sustainability team has vetted everything.

44:36Everything hits at least one of our social initiatives or environmental initiatives. And you make this point about the vendors wanting to step up and recognizing this is the future. We want to learn these capabilities. We want to be able to learn what materials we can use to make things more sustainable. So it seemed as if many of the people that you thought you might be annoying, in fact, wanted to come along with you to help themselves to grow. 100%. I mean, they were going to packaging conferences all over the world and bringing back, I would get decks filled with materials. And then the packaging people were introducing me to people who were experimenting with shrimp shell, like the leftover shrimp shells from food waste and turning that into a new form of styrofoam.

45:30So it was very exciting to be around all of these creative people who are trying to find solutions to, you know, problems that we don't want to, you know, we don't want to use styrofoam. So what's the next thing? And being a smaller brand, we can incubate that a little bit more and try different things and see how it works. So we are piloting some paper packaging this summer, which is kind of exciting too, because right now we use a recycled plastic for some of our packaging, because it's the easiest thing to actually recycle. Most compostable packaging needs a commercial compost shirts, whereas a traditional recycled plastic can just go in your recycle bin and that gets recycled normally without extra machinery, which is interesting.

46:16Well, and I think when you took me through the store, one of the sofas had some kind of soy fill to it, if I recall. And I mean, And there were all sorts of alternative products that you've been able to use. Yeah. The sofas are my most passionate and exciting part. First of all, I made you sit in it. But instead of using traditional materials that most sofas have in them, like a poly, we cover the arms with coconut mat. So it's almost like the old horse hair of English upholstery. We use responsible wool. So instead of the cotton batting or the poly batting that you would use, there's these layers of natural materials.

46:57And then you have three different fill choices on the cushion. So you could do the Certa Pure, which is the soy foam. You could do the natural latex, which is derived from rubber trees naturally. And then we have a combo of natural latex and responsible down and feather. And we're also working on some recycled down and feather options, too. So we're really trying to hone in on more materials. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what was the sense of the scope and scale originally going to be? Were you given a sense of how many SKUs? And to your point, did you want to have product available in all the rooms in the home?

47:41Was it a whole home story right out of the gate? It was a whole home story right out of the gate, but very, very selective and intentional. And it was like, we will have, and actually that's where the name came from. So the green row name was everything you need all in a row. And that's where green row came from. So it was the most sustainable dining table, the best sofa, you know, the crib, the crib sheets, the most comfortable, sustainable bedding, all of these things that were practical, beautiful and functional, but it was all in a row. So the idea was we were lining it up so you didn't have to think about it.

48:17And what was the stylistic directive or how did that come to life in the way that it did? What did you want it to look like and feel like? Well, I think part of it is probably my pedigree, being at Anthropologie for a little while and then Shabby Chic for a very long time. I did see a void in the market for sort of more vintage, nostalgic, and with a little bit of femininity in it as well. But again, it was just more this idea of adding life and joy into the product and that I am a flea market shopper. My whole house is filled with vintage and wonky legs and things like that. So I was naturally attracted to shapes and materials that were from the past.

49:06And I think you see that in the store. Some of the things you can't tell if they're the vintage pieces or the reproduction pieces. One of the things that people in the world of sustainability tell me is challenging is that it was hard enough getting the American market excited about the sustainability story before. and now it's even more challenging because we're told, oh, that's not a priority at the moment. How do you reconcile that? How do you navigate that? Obviously, it's challenging, but we're always focused. We have a clear vision, a clear strategy. Our ethos for the brand are very clear and we're not going to waver because at the end of the day, it's important from my perspective of I have two children and I want to make sure that whatever we're doing, we're not hurting the earth and to make sure that, you know, the most sustainable choice, I guess, is not to buy anything, but you do buy a home and you do grow and need other pieces.

50:09So to try and buy it in a way that you can feel good about, I think makes me feel good. So we're not going to ever, that's our mission and we're not going to lose sight of what we set out to do. And we'll just keep doing things the way we do them. And in some cases, it becomes more expensive. But I've always said since the beginning, even when Fred came to the launch, that the price points on most of our things are aligned with like a Pottery Barn, Williams-Sonoma price point. It's the sofas that are a little bit more expensive, but you're investing in a lifetime sofa. So it is something where you can replace the slipcover in a couple years if you just want to change or change the cushions out.

50:51It's really coming to terms with like this is a forever sofa and it's going to cost a little bit more, but you know it's not going to end up in landfill. So the brand launched, how long was it from the launch of the brand to that first retail store? Was it a couple of years? Yeah. So I started working on this in August of 2021. There was a world shut down for a little bit in it that slowed us down. Some pandemic or something, I remember. Yeah, whatever. Couldn't travel around the world like I planned to in January. So that got pushed till June. We launched the brand online May 14th, 2023. It was Mother's Day, which was kind of fun.

51:33And then the store opened this March. So yeah, almost three years we were alive before the store open. And what is the thinking about the first store down in Soho? How many more you imagine? Does this spin out into a whole bunch of retail locations so that people can come and sit on those sofas as you had me do and experience how comfortable it is? Yes. I think this year we're slated to open another store. Laura spoke about it on the earnings call. So we're being very intentional about the location, the spaces and making sure we do it with the same footprint, we do everything else. So we're also doing all of these other little projects where people can experience the brand too.

52:22I think I told you about the hotel here in West Marin called Nick's Cove. Oh, yes. Yeah. Last year, we styled two cottages all in Green Row. And so people can go and stay in the beds and feel the sofas and experience it that way. And that's been great for us. And next week, we are launching a new one in Atlanta, just outside of Atlanta, in a green community called Serenby. It's amazing. They have an inn on the property and we did over the lake house. And it's now actually called the Green Row Lake house at Sarah and B. And we put wallpaper, furniture, bedding, everything. We did it from head to toe.

53:03So people will be able to go and rent it out, you know, for a girls trip or a family trip, whatever. But it's really incredible because you see the full scope of the brands throughout the cottage. That's fantastic. And how do you think about where Green Row sits relative to Pottery Barn, Williams-Sonoma Home, all of the other brands in the stable? Well, so because I do Williams-Sonoma Home too, I say, I say Williams-Sonoma Home is the uptown sister and Green Row is the downtown sister. And then Pottery Barn, we cross over a little bit with price point in some, but our aesthetic is probably much more eclectic and more vintage inspired.

53:50But I think the way we're positioned is we're all very different. You know, West Elm, Pottery Barn, Williams-Sonoma Home, we all have our unique vision and point of view. But I always joke that there's a downtown sister and an uptown sister for Williams-Sonoma Home. Well, so let's talk about your uptown sister, Williams-Sonoma Home. So literally just this past week's show, I was talking about how big an opportunity I think there is for Williams-Sonoma Home. And I'm wondering how you're thinking about it and what you're working on and how you're positioning it and the product line that we can see in the future coming from it.

54:35So Williams-Sonoma Home is a huge opportunity. And not many people realize that when you walk in a Williams-Sonoma store, all of the dining tables, all of the chairs that are around those dining tables, the bar stools, the bar carts, all of that is for sale. And the stores can sell you furniture. We also have a flagship store in Columbus Circle where if you walk upstairs, the entire upstairs is home. So there's sofas, there's beds, bedding, all of the things. And And Williams-Sonoma Home is like the premium brand in the portfolio. And so we produce a lot of high quality, high design products, definitely a little bit more traditional than Green Row.

55:18And we've done some really exciting collaborations. So we've had a longstanding relationship with Aaron Mauder. And then we started a collab with Josh Young about two years ago. And he is an amazing designer with a great following. He's a super talented artist. and we've expanded our collection with him as well. And then we have two secret collaborations coming, oh, three actually, coming up this year in the summer and fall timing, which I'm super excited about. And I think part of Williams-Sonoma Homes' opportunity is just awareness, making sure that people know that we are a resource for all of these things too, and the quality and the price points and the aesthetic.

56:00It fits a lot of homes, but just people kind of forget because it's not like when you walk into maybe a crate and barrel store where you see a footprint of a sofa and a living room or a bedroom on the floor, you just see the kitchen. But if you can imagine what the rest of the house would look like, that's what Williamson in the home is. And what's your sense of what sales tools actually work these days to attract people's attention. We were talking recently about, sadly, the demise of the metaverse and Mark Zuckerberg has come out and said, oh, well, after my$83 billion investment in the metaverse, turns out it's not really happening.

56:46Part of what was tied up in the metaverse was everyone's fascination at one point with VR technology. We thought that that was going to help sell furniture in a big way. It doesn't seem like it actually did. And that remarkably, we're still going back in a big way to good old fashioned catalogs and things that arrive in the mail and show you what the product looks like. But how are you thinking about what actually helps product to sell? Well, I think, you know, we have within our portfolio, we have outward, which is AI technology and all of the 3D renders and things like that. So Greenrow is slowly but surely getting up on that tech because it does take a lot of people to get it.

57:36And with a team of five to six people, it's hard to manage that. I do think that's important for people to be able to visualize what it'll look like, especially with my product. If you're spending$5 ,000 on a sofa and you want to put that brown print that was in the front of the store on it, you want to see what it's going to look like. But I do still believe in, you know, good old fashioned word of mouth. If someone has a good experience and then they tell their friends, you know, we have something right now with someone in California calling the store and she's sending her New York friends in to go and sit on the sofa so that she can then make the purchase.

58:10But I love when our catalog goes out. The catalog to me is a way for people to still, you know, touch and feel the brand, even if they're not close to the store. So we send two of those a year. And then social media, particularly Instagram, is very good for us. We were able to tell the stories behind the product. So our hand-knotted rugs, the materials in the sofa, that type of thing for storytelling is very important too. And people do spend a lot of time on our website just reading the stories behind the product, which is great. We just had the market editor from El Decor, Ben Reinhart, on the show.

58:50And he's written a wonderful book called The Layered Home. And so much of it seems to fit in so perfectly with Green Rose mindset and aesthetic and just this more is more and just have fun with it and don't make it all so perfect. And it seems like we're in this time, and maybe we're talking ourselves into it more, of wanting more whimsy, wanting more fun. And it just seems like that has risen to meet the moment of you launching this brand. And do you do a lot of research into what's going on in terms of trends, in terms of what aesthetics people are leaning into? Do you look at human behavior and try and figure out where it's all going?

59:41I would say my research into the human behavior is more about practical uses than trends. I feel like what we develop and bring in is timeless. and we're lucky that, you know, sort of this maximalist print and pattern and color drenching is all on trend right now. But for me, it's timeless and it's a piece that could live in a home that's completely white walls, you know, and more neutral or it can be in a home that has wallpaper and, you know, really strong colors of paint. So I definitely like to understand the customer mindset more so than trends. So we do a lot of what are people needing? What are people asking for?

1:00:25And so we've been able to really use what the customer is asking for more so than what the trend is to develop product. Yeah. Well, what was fun too, when I was in the store and I was trying to coax some customers into buying that fun sailboat fabric, and I hope that they did because - She just placed the order. Is that right? Fantastic. I feel we helped out on that sale. I think you did. I think we gave her some confidence. But it made me excited to think of consumers buying some fabric, buying some wallpaper, and jumping in in a way that I feel that they do in the UK much more than we do here in the States.

1:01:11And why can't there be some fun shop where you can just go and get some wallpaper and fool around with it yourself and get some fabric and reupholster your sofa and see what happens. Obviously, I'm very inspired by the English countryside. That's one of my favorite places in the world. And I think that I love sort of that English eccentric look of mixing and matching and these practical things like sink skirts. You know, in all of the hotel projects we've done, we have a sink skirt because below the sink is pretty ugly. So it's, you know, it's, we have this whole like thing about coverups and I feel like it's a very English way to do it.

1:01:50The sofa topper could cover up, you know, an ugly spot on the sofa or the cord cover covers up a cord that you don't want to see and arm covers protect your sofa and keep them clean. So you don't always need to buy a new duvet or a new, but maybe you buy a new quilt to layer on the top of it, or you buy a new throw to put a pillow on your chair. It's like this layering and collecting thing, which I think is so interesting because everything has a story or a reason for being there versus just, you know, sometimes people will buy a house and furnish it right away because that's what they're supposed to do instead of just maybe living with a space for a little while.

1:02:29and then finding things that you really love and bringing them in slowly. And I love that way too. And that's kind of how the brand has evolved. We started out with such limited SKUs and as we've learned from customers and through doing our own projects, what are these pieces that you can't find in the market? We've grown that way too. It's almost like we're layering the brand in a way. Yeah, well, I look forward to having you back so that you can tell us more of what you're working on. but I'm grateful for your time. And I thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you.

1:03:09And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? First of all, last week, I apologize. There was an error in the uploading of the podcast that caught off the second half of your, caught my eye and oh, the public was outraged. So if you missed the second thing that caught Dennis's eye, go back and re-download the episode because the problem has been fixed. Yeah, what caught my eye this week was a great article in Inc. Magazine by Yelena Halpert about Schoolhouse.

1:03:41You know, we've talked about them today. We've talked about this brand a lot, you know, how they were once a cool, buzzy manufacturing operation and how the acquisition by Food52 kicked off a chain of events that saw them lose so much of their value and eventually go bankrupt. And we've talked about the story a little bit in pieces, but this was a great, you know, Yelena really did the hard yards and put together a great, really exhaustive profile of what really happened behind the scenes. And it's a story worth telling and it's a story worth reading. So I would urge people to go check it out and find out what really happened with Schoolhouse.

1:04:11So that was interesting to me. Also, it's April Fool's Day today. We don't have a dumb corporate prank for you here on the Thursday show. I apologize. There's a lot of them out there in the interior design industry. Some of them are funny. Some of them are a little flat. But what I kind of enjoyed actually was this fridge company, Rocco, which actually released a product for April Fool's Day, which was they had this coaster that has a space for three drinks on it because there's this whole Internet thing about how you should have three drinks. I'm personally a big drink goblin, so I always have a seltzer, Diet Coke, coffee, water.

1:04:44So for me, this definitely landed. I very much enjoyed their April Fool's Day prank. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? I'm often in trouble from my house for having so many glasses around because I, too, have many beverages going at the same time. So I can totally relate. A couple of things caught my eye. One, terribly excited about our own Caroline Burke, producer on the show and, of course, editor at Business of Home, is coming out with a new column, a new series that's going to be getting deep into the world of kitchen and bath. No doubt coming off of her fantastic time at KBiz. And I'm excited about that.

1:05:21And I think that's an area that we should be talking about more. And it sounds like we will. So go, Caroline. I'm very excited about that. And I hope everyone will enjoy reading that. The other thing I wanted to just mention was, so last week, right after we finished recording, I raced into the city because the fabulous Young Ha was having a book signing event in the beautiful Zach and Fox showroom. And it was so moving to see so much of the design industry show up for this event. And it says so much about who Young Ha is and how she is regarded in the industry. And so often we talk about people that you should look up to in this industry and try and emulate.

1:06:12And clearly, everybody has such warm feelings towards Young, who does a lot to bring on Young interns in her office and help students get a leg up on their careers. And she's just done a lot to give back to the industry. I know that she's part of the upcoming Kipps Bay celebration that will be honoring Jim Druckmann next week at the president's dinner. But she's just a much beloved figure in the industry. So congratulations to her on the new book, a mood, a thought, a feeling, but lovely to see so much of the industry turn out to celebrate her. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening.

1:06:53If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Katsuneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.