The Thursday Show: Roman and Williams sues over an alleged knockoff. Plus: Ben Reynaert is layermaxxing

24:52You know, we were all at home getting sick of how our, you know, apartments and homes looked. And that includes our kids' apartment. And also another angle, which I definitely hadn't thought of, is this idea that like, you know, kids' rooms are so rarely produced editorially. Like it's so rare that in AD or House Beautiful, you'll see like a kid's room as part of the editorial package. But since COVID, when everyone started sharing so much more of their lives and so much more of their homes, you'd start to see like celebrities and influencers talk about like, okay, well, this is my house and this is my kids room.

25:23And here's the thing I did in there. You'd start to see a lot more of that content just in your daily life. And I think it made people think like, oh, okay, this is part of design too. And that's, I think, part of why there's been this surge, both from interior designers and brands trying to target that audience and that room in the house. So very clever to kind of tease all that apart. Funny enough, it made me think back to David Netto back in the day when And David Netto was designing children's furniture, which was some of the hippest, coolest children's furniture around for quite some time.

25:53And we talked about DuckDuck, which was another fun brand for children's furniture. But, you know, a lot of places it's not it wasn't easy to find and it it wasn't it wasn't as cool and chic as I think many people wanted to include in projects. And I love that now there's there's so much more available. And the children's room is sort of getting more attention. And I think should. And we should see them much more in shelter publications and people's books. Yeah, it's interesting. It's such a complicated category, though, right? Because like, okay, like, first of all, there's the obvious factor, which is that you're buying stuff for your kids and your kids are a certain size and they will not be that size for very long.

26:35So there's no like forever children's chair. You know what I mean? So that's like a fundamental challenge. The other challenge is obviously kids change a lot. And so you don't want to get locked in too much to buying, you know, something that's going to either not serve their needs physically or feel weird stylistically in a couple of years. And then it's hard for the producers, too, because, you know, as someone said, I think it was Laura Appleton said in the story, it's like it's not that much cheaper to produce a nice kid's chair than it is to produce an adult's chair. But like, you know, you end up with doing a lot less volume and you're targeting someone in a very specific time in their life.

27:07And so I think a lot of producers have tried to make really cool children's furniture only to realize the market is really tough and it's hard to sustain the business over a long period of time. We should say, I don't think DuckDuck exists anymore. And I know David Netto, you know, sold his business. So I think there's a lot there's always like this surge of interest in it. But then these, you know, companies kind of fade away into the background so that, you know, because it's a difficult market. You know, one thing I thought was really brilliant, Caroline profiled in the story is this this trend of like trying to make kids furniture that turns into something else, you know, like.

27:37a bassinet that turns into storage or like a crib that turns into, you know, I don't know what the crib turns into, but that was, I thought of a clever way around sort of the fundamental problem of kids' furniture. Well, and I love when I talk to designers and they tell me that they, that they get super involved with the kids and really ask them what they want. Just before we came on air, I saw that House Beautiful had put up an image of this absolutely charming bunk bed that Amber Lewis had designed for a client. And it had these lovely steps up to the upper bunk and there was a little curtain you could close.

28:10And I've seen several images from designers. I think our friend Stephanie Sabby was designing a really fabulous bunk bed set as well. I love when designers say, oh yes, they're part of my clientele is the kids and the rooms that they want. And it seems like grownups are spending a lot more on it. So I'm happy about that. Yeah, well, I would say Stephanie Stabby's is not just like a bunk bed. She built like a house within her house. Exactly. Like a dollhouse, but it's like her size kids in her house. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, the other kind of complicated part about it is like, ostensibly, this is all designed for kids, but we all know that it's designed for the parents who are designed for the kids.

28:49So it's a very complicated, you know, Venn diagram of what you're actually trying to do. So I think kudos to the people who really pull it off. You know, I think it's a really cool niche with a lot of challenges, but for people who can make it work, it's a really fun one. I agree. And I hope we see a lot more of it. In the meantime, one place where we're not going to see them, Fred, is sadly the metaverse. Last week, Meta, the company formerly known as Facebook, announced it would be radically scaling back its metaverse platform, Horizon Worlds. After spending a reported, wait for it,$83 billion to get it off the ground.

29:26That's right,$83 billion, and oh, it just didn't work out. Too bad. Try, try again. It's one of those things where you realize the sheer scale of a company like Meta. Like, if I lost$83, that would ruin my day. Right. They can lose 83 billion and it's on to the next. Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, why are Dennis and Fred talking about this? I mean, certainly Schadenfreude. I think like, you know, there was so much hullabaloo at the time, you know, you know, Facebook changed its name to Meta in 2021, largely because they wanted to, you know, make the metaverse a thing. You know, at the time, this is a quote from Mark Zuckerberg at the time.

30:02Our hope is that within the next decade, the metaverse will reach a billion people, host hundreds of billions of dollars of digital commerce and support jobs for millions of creators and developers did not happen. And I think that like, it's a reminder that not everything that comes out of Silicon Valley is, comes true and is going to transform our worlds. I remember that, you know, this wasn't really as big of a deal in the home world, but there were some, you know, I think Ikea opened up a store in the metaverse or something. There were people trying to get in on it and it's, it just, it just wasn't meant to be.

30:33There was so much talk about real estate transactions in the metaverse. And you quoted Mark Zuckerberg there. What was fascinating was going back and seeing some of the incredible reports that came out of reputable Wall Street firms. JP Morgan had released a white paper entitled Opportunities in the Metaverse. And they were at the time, and when I say at the time, less than four years ago, were predicting this was going to be a$1 trillion market. And part of it was there was going to be so much real estate development going on in the metaverse, and designers were going to need to train themselves how to work on all these projects that they were going to be getting in the metaverse.

31:18And I hope they didn't put other projects on hold because they were waiting for those. No, no, I can't take your real life project right now because I'm waiting for the metaverse project that's being built out. Yeah, I mean, and remember, it was also Roblox had gotten so popular and everybody thought, sure, this is the entryway onto this. They played their kids' game for a while and they thought, no, I totally see how this is going to happen. And everybody just got wildly carried away by it all. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the problem is people look at, like, kid behavior and they're like, oh, like, that's forevermore.

31:53It shall be thus, you know, but it's like, I don't know, you know, I like to play Super Mario Brothers when I was a kid. I don't want to I don't live my life, according to the tenets of Super Mario Brothers. I mean, I think it's, you know, it's one of those weird things where I think, yeah, again, the tendency is schadenfreude and we should definitely indulge in that. But I do think, you know, there are some interesting ideas there. Like, I like that people did the, you know, virtual show houses. They weren't taking place in, quote unquote, the metaverse, but they were an interesting way to, you know, bring the show house concept to designers who couldn't physically travel.

32:25You know, I think people had all kinds of virtual showrooms, and I don't know if that's still as much of a thing. It's an interesting idea. I'm actually, I actually think some of the technology is really cool. I still think the Apple Vision Pro is a really powerful technology, but it just doesn't seem like people have really embraced it. I think it, you know, it comes down to like the very obvious point, just that the real world is better. I don't know how to put it more simply than that, but it's just kind of true. I think that Apple's product was really interesting. Clearly, Meta is investing more in the Ray-Bans, and that actually does seem to be really popular, and people are using that.

33:03And I am struck, as you are, that virtual reality seemed like it was going to be such an effective tool, funny enough, to sell furniture. The home brands were leaning into it in a huge way, right? And everybody was saying, no, no, once you're able to see that sofa in your living room, it's going to change the game. But it really hasn't. And people thought that they weren't going to be going back to showrooms in much the same way. And it turns out that they are. And I say, thank goodness for that. I agree. I think we'll find little uses for this technology, but we won't be living inside of it, I think is the takeaway for that.

33:39You know, one final note before we move on here, but like, you know, as you mentioned, they spend$83 billion on the metaverse. I think they're still doing some stuff, but yeah, it's largely kind of gone to waste. You know, at the same breath, Facebook is saying, or Meta is saying, rather, they're going to spend$130 billion on AI. And, you know, I wonder, like, are we going to look in four years back at that investment as wise or foolish? I think it's more complicated because people do use AI in their daily life, but do they use it to the tune of$130 billion over the next few years? What do you think is – I think it's pretty obvious that AI isn't as silly from a hype perspective as the metaverse.

34:17But is this a good cautionary tale for everyone who will get wrapped up in what's being peddled out of Silicon Valley? Well, I think to your point, it's important for everyone to look at this story and see, to step back and put in perspective what happened, the frenzy. And of course, a lot of this was COVID driven and all of that. And the world seems like such a different place all those years ago. But yes, we're all so terrified about this future that we're all so certain about. And to your point, the hyperscalers, as I referenced earlier, Google and Meta and everybody else in that space is spending hundreds of billions of dollars each, each themselves on their build out for what they imagine AI is going to do for them.

35:06and not all of them can be winners. And it's hard to imagine that all of that money is going to come back to them in a meaningful way. Sometimes people just get ahead of themselves and perhaps we're getting ahead of ourselves with some of the fears about what AI will ultimately mean for our world. I certainly hope so anyway, Fred. Yes, me too, me too. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including advice from Sean Lowe on running a solo design firm and a roundup of April's Can't Miss events. But first, a quick break.

35:46This spring, Lalloy heads to High Point Market with an exciting lineup of new introductions, including a debut rug collection featuring a groundbreaking new construction, along with a beautiful new season from Rifle Paper Company. They're also hosting exclusive showroom events, including one with designer Amber Lewis. If you're attending High Point, book an appointment or connect with your Lolloy sales representative at lolloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. Newport Brass, the premier maker of solid brass kitchen and bath fixtures, has recently expanded their product portfolio with ultra-thin shower heads, additional lavatory offerings, and new kitchen extensions in their celebrated Taft and Haney collections.

36:35These expansions give designers and homeowners even more flexibility to create truly bespoke, luxurious spaces that are built to last. Visit newportbrass.com backslash new to learn more.

36:53And we're back. I'm joined now by a gentleman who wears many hats these days. He's the market editor at Elle Decor, as well as the co-founder of The Ticking Tent and author of the new book, The Layered Home. Ben Reinhart, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Dennis. I'm thrilled to be here. It's great to see you. Well, it's great to get to talk with you, and I'm excited. First-time author, Ben Reinhart. How does that feel? I'm so excited. It feels incredible. It's a little bit surreal. As you know, books are quite an endeavor. It took a couple of years to birth this into the world, so I couldn't be more thrilled to see it.

37:38And what was the thinking behind it? So what made you want to do a book and, as you say, take on the very heavy lift, man, of putting a book like this together? Well, it's funny, Dennis. I was having dinner with my friend and former colleague from traditional home, Christina Paletto. And we were just having a boozy, fun evening in Brooklyn. And she was like, I love your Instagram. Why don't you make that into a book? You know, Instagram has always been my own space. It's been my own place for creativity. And that was the energy I really wanted to bring forward in the book. It was my opportunity to really curate and call through everything that I've seen, people I've met.

38:31I really went back and looked and thought about who is a really interesting person. Who am I curious about? Whose work do I really admire? And I'm really interested in getting behind the scenes, opening up the door and really seeing what their spaces were like. And that really helped to drive the concept of the book forward. So tell people a little bit about the idea behind the book. It sounds like, yes, you getting into some of these people's homes, many of whom are interesting collectors, none of whom are shy about putting a lot of stuff in their spaces and revealing, I'm guessing, a lot of their personality in doing so.

39:17You're spot on. Layers is key. I think perfection is boring. And I believe in a little bit of questionable taste, to be honest. I like it. I really respond to rooms with tension, rooms that have a lot of old things mixed with new things, a lot of super polished, fine objects mixed with kind of worn out and sort of maybe less desirable things, too. I think editing isn't always about taking things away, but it's about making sure every single piece really earns its keep in a room. and one thing that I told my publisher which is Clarkson Potter a part of Penguin Random House was that I wanted to shoot the entire book 100 % original photography all new so I called up my friend Manuel Rodriguez who's an incredible interiors photographer and he was someone I I knew I could like traverse down the one lane roads in the British countryside.

40:28And, you know, we got lost trying to find Ambrose Miller's really unassuming home, like on the side of the road, asking for directions, like going the wrong way. You know, so Ambrose is a great example. She's an incredible young antiques dealer. She's from Birmingham, Alabama, but resides in Suffolk in the UK. And I had never, we had actually never met. We've been friends on Instagram. So we're always messaging each other and DMing. Like, I love her eye. And I was like, I am pretty sure her space is going to be amazing. And so we're just going to show up. I'm just going to bring a photographer and we're just going to show up at her house.

41:15Exactly. Exactly. She got a heads up, but she was more than willing and excited to participate. And her place is incredible. I mean, it's like entering into the world of a collector. She's got multiple buildings on her property, just like brimming with interesting objects. And she's a great follow too on Instagram. It seems like, so this is a very transatlantic book, and I'm wondering if there is anything that you have learned over time about how they do it in the UK, how they do it overseas versus how we do it here back at home. What's your take on that? Well, for starters, I think I'm secretly like an 87-year-old British man.

42:07I think that's true. I think that's exactly. So for some odd reason, like the British style and country house style really resonates with me. And I think the best antiques and the best objects are over in England and Spain and France. And, you know, they're all over Western Europe. And I think people in the UK are used to keeping things longer and they're used to inheriting things and not getting rid of old things. I think, too, we're so trained to redo a whole room and change the palette. And that involves changing everything in the room, recovering things. And I think from what I understand and from what I can glean in the UK in particular is that there's just more of a willingness to like mix things in and live with things as they are.

43:09And I think we kind of get caught up in creating these sort of pristine spaces where everything is super, super thought out. And like the placement of the leaf motif on a cushion is really considered. And I'm not saying that's at all wrong or bad. I think it creates incredible spaces. It's a privilege and an honor and a joy to see really thought out spaces like that and experience them in person. But also Ben feels that we're just too hung up on perfection, right? Yeah, I think that, you know, there's I see so many spaces and so many places kind of just, you know, I feel like showrooms or, you know, I'm really curious and interested in places that feel collected over time.

44:04I think the rooms that are most intriguing to me reflect who lives in them. And you can very clearly tell from the way things are put together, from the objects that are in a room. You learn so much about the style and the taste of the person who lives there. Yeah. And I'm curious, Ben, what your experience with this has been, too. I was chatting with the folks at Liberty of London earlier today, you know, as one does, right? And we were having this conversation about how I just feel like there's so much more use of wallpaper in private, relatively small homes. Not grand spaces. We all know about those.

44:54But I feel like the everyday person in the UK tends to have way more wallpaper than we do here in the States. And part of it, the Liberty people were saying is, yeah, a lot of people just go and they get some wallpaper and they put it up themselves. And that's just how they think about it. And they don't sort of make a big fuss. They don't make a big production. and I feel like that comes through in a lot of these spaces. I just get much more of a kind of DIY sensibility going on here. What's your take? Absolutely. People think they need a plan and what they really need is permission. And you're going to give it to them right now.

45:33My hope is, yeah, I mean, my hope is that the book, you know, and I realized this more over time is that it will encourage its audience to really try things, to fail epically, to test their own taste and to find their voice. And I think the people that we've gathered in the book really do have a unique voice and are willing to try things. I mean, Patti O'Donnell, who is the brand ambassador for Aaron Ball. He lives in the UK as well. He is so masterful at decorating for less. He has a very trained eye. He understands really strong motifs and ideas in decorating, and he's able to just like whip them up himself with a glue gun and like a needle and thread.

46:31And so his home is really exciting for that, you know, like really seeing what you can do with just a bit of paint or like some fabric that you found at a yard sale. And do you get the sense that in the U.S. we've begun to give ourselves permission more? Or do you think that people are still too anxious or nervous? We've often talked about how in the US, we're so focused, to your point about people moving around so much, we're so focused on resale, or we're so focused on the next person who's going to have our house or our apartment. And is that misguided? I think the style is shifting. I think the next generation, Gen Z and even younger, they're really interested in thrifting.

47:23They're like modifying their clothing. They're interested in like analog technology. I'm watching Love Story now and like everyone else and, you know, kind of yearning for the days before the Internet and in New York in particular. So I think there is this desire to connect with a little bit more personality. And to your point, I think people often don't necessarily have the language to describe what their personal style or taste is. It's almost a discovery process that they have to go through, don't you think? absolutely I think it's just a willingness to try things and a willingness to just get out there and you know buy things shop pick up things from a tag sale try moving things around I'm a big believer in just like what sometimes on a weekend I'll just move everything from one room to the other just to see what it's like.

48:32And I think if you're interested and if you're curious about finding your own style and finding your own taste, I think the people featured in the book really kind of shine a light on what's possible. And I think it's, for me, Like I was inspired really by by every single person's home that that I was able to visit. You were you were mentioning about Patty O'Donnell, whose space is fabulous and fun, and he's the brand ambassador for Pharaoh and Ball. So, of course, why wouldn't it be? I feel as though you are the the brand ambassador for this whole layered home. take a chance, put your personality out there.

49:21Do you feel, and is this book part of you leaning into this notion that you, Ben Reynard, have built this brand around how you come at the world and what you are a champion of? Well, thank you. Yeah. I mean, I will add that to my resume for sure. I think you should. Get on that LinkedIn page and update that. Exactly. Well, it's funny, you know, back when I worked at House Beautiful, maybe nine or 10 years ago, I was in charge of producing an entertaining column. And I got the opportunity to work with the designer Alex Papachristidis, who you know well. and I was in awe meeting him at his apartment in New York, stepping inside his world, just seeing the attention to detail, everything from the height of the light switches to the trim that was on the trim on another trim on a curtain.

50:29I mean, it was like I was really in awe of the detail and his way of living. He had a landline, which I thought was amazing. So I think seeing how exuberant, expressive creatives live is just endlessly inspiring and fascinating. And I want to see more of that in the design market, to be quite honest. And when you run around in your capacity as a market, editor, are you seeing more of that being brought forward from brands? Are there brands that feel like they're taking chances more? I am seeing more pattern and more color coming through. And I think what's really inspiring and informative and what I love so much about being a market editor is that, you know, it all kind of starts in the market.

51:30Tell me about that. It all starts in the market. Tell me what you mean. I mean, that's to me where ideas are kind of coming forward from top product designers, like industry tastemakers, people designing new products, coming up with new solutions for living, people who are pushing the boundaries in terms of like what and how we think about decorating and creating spaces for ourselves. I like seeing all of those kind of ideas percolating in the market. And I think once you start to see things over and over again, you start to see where new ideas are taking shape and where certain things kind of start to just become more ubiquitous.

52:21We should tell people who might not be familiar about The Ticking Tent, one of the other hats that you wear. And I know the next Ticking Tent is scheduled and coming up, and we should tell people about that. So talk about that, describe it a little bit for people and how that is just such a natural part of being an extension of what you do, right? Absolutely. And thank you for mentioning it. Our next event is May 2nd in Litchfield, Connecticut at Spring Hill Vineyards. It's an incredible property. And the idea really came about with a friend and colleague of mine, Christina Juarez. We were just chatting about all of our favorite dealers and all of our favorite antiques vendors and how, you know, during the pandemic, so many people left New York and really kind of wanted to celebrate them and kind of gather our favorite people under one tent, a striped tent, as it were, and just share those individuals with our community.

53:30And, you know, I think we're all really hungry for discovery and finding that next piece or that next thing. And I think myself and colleagues and friends in the industry, like we all love the thrill of the hunt. So it really did become a natural extension. Yeah. And so now, and it's a show that you put up a couple of times a year, and it seems to have a lot of momentum to it. Yes? Yes. It's now twice yearly in Litchfield, Connecticut in the spring and Bedford in the fall. And I really believe that these antiques, these unique objects, these artisan goods, these are the only things that will really have value in the future.

54:21So I'm all for supporting and we have an incredible roster of over 60 dealers, artisans, boutique brands that don't have a strong brick and mortar presence. So, you know, the mission really is to curate a marketplace for discovery and to really kind of like support those with like addictive behaviors like me. Well, and thankfully there seem to be many out there with similar addictive behaviors who will be there in great number when the show opens. And it's always fun and it's great to discover a lot of new resources that people might not be familiar with already. And to that point, Ben, I'm wondering if there are some fun resources or some fun shops that you've discovered recently that are worth sharing with people that you were delighted by or happy to stumble upon.

55:19Yes, I'm seeing a lot out there. There's this one tabletop brand that I'm really excited about called Gannon Monroe. And Maureen, the founder, makes these incredible glass plates in addition to textiles and table linens. But, you know, they're really bold graphic colors. And I don't see a ton of glass plates. I see a lot of, you know, really beautiful Murano glassware and vases and pictures, but like plates feel kind of unique and interesting and different to me. And then, you know, in lots of fun colors with piped borders. So, you know, we're looking for those kind of unique things that you don't kind of see in every shop or you're not seeing, you know, all across Instagram all the time.

56:11Staying with Instagram, we've been having this conversation a lot about how the incredible impact that Instagram has had on the design industry, right? For better or for worse, and in some cases both, surely, right? Some people have launched their careers through Instagram. And listen, here you are, developed this huge following. Look at you. I mean, now you're a star and you've got a book and you're a market editor and you're all this. And Instagram certainly helped. But my point is what's also happened and what you were just alluding to is that it makes us feel as if, oh, we've already seen this before.

56:47or, oh, this feels so repetitive or, oh, this feels so similar, in part because the algorithm works that way. It knows what you - Oh, it knows. Yeah. So first of all, what the heck is it showing you all the time, Ben? That's what I want to know. But also, how do you think about Instagram and the impact that it's had? You know, Instagram is such an incredible tool. And I think people love to sort of poo-poo it, but I was, you know, I had a BlackBerry, Dennis. I've been around. Me too. I missed the keyboard, to be honest. And I remember countless people in the industry being like, oh, Instagram's not for me.

57:30That's, you know, not my clients aren't there. And, you know, things just change and evolve. And I think That's one thing that I celebrate. Change really is the only constant in our world. And I think embracing these platforms, being in charge of your own brand, it's kind of incredible that we're able to do that. And I think, you know, that's really where designers are being discovered. And I think that's really where new things are being found. The eyeballs are there. So, you know, why not work within and embrace the audience there? Well, I wonder, Ben, staying with that notion, we joke about what an incredible multitasker you are and all of the different hats.

58:28But in all of that, you have one of the many things that I admire about what you've been able to do over the years is constantly reinvent, staying very true to a core that you clearly show the world. But also, you've been very quick to learn new skills and very quick to adapt. And I wonder if through all of that, you have developed a mindset or an approach that helps guide you through all of that. Oh, go on. Go on, Dennis. Thank you. No, because, I mean, you've figured so much of it out, and I wonder how. I mean, you know, honestly, like, everyone should probably ignore everything that I'm saying.

59:13But I do feel that working in magazines, I've learned that it's important to cater and work on inspiring your audience. And so whether it's a product page, a roundup, a story, or an Instagram post, I'm always just trying to inspire my audience. And that's, you know, largely designers and it's largely people like in, you know, working in the home furnishings in the design industry. So, you know, having the freedom and the creativity to do that all for yourself, I think is a luxury and it's a privilege. and it's exciting. And I think everyone working in the industry has it within them to find what works for them.

1:00:09I always recommend carving out 15 minutes when you're just sort of like on the way somewhere. Like I do some of my best posts on the subway. So it's like just finding the moment to fit it into your routine is, to me, the best way to do that if you're looking for a strategy. And it seems as though you seem to roll with things and just adjust to whatever is going on. And with that, there seems to be a certain level of resilience, too, because you talk about being in magazines. If ever there was a challenging time to be in magazines, right? It's now the media world in general. It just, wow. It's a challenging time.

1:01:00Absolutely. Absolutely. Everything's upside down and everything's turned on its head and it's only like two o 'clock on a Tuesday, you know? So, so yeah, things are constantly moving and changing. And, and Dennis, you know, I've worked with like some tough editors. I've worked with some really talented people and And, you know, stories change and evolve. Like one day you could be working on a story and the concept will change slightly and all of a sudden you're pivoting and you're reshooting something or you just kind of have to like, I'm used to like throwing things out as quickly as I'm bringing ideas to the table.

1:01:44So I think that has really helped me to kind of, you know, roll with the punches and sort of ride the wave, as it were. Yeah, which is which is what you have to do these days is right. Just ride the wave. So I'm I'm excited for you and I'm and I'm excited for the book. It seems like the book is out right now. Yes. So don't delay. You can go on Amazon. You can order it at this very moment. the layered home. And I congratulate you on everything that you've been able to do. But now your first book, this is a huge achievement. So congratulations. And thank you for making the time to talk to me about it, Ben.

1:02:25Thank you, Dennis. At the end of the day, a home should feel like you and not a formula. And that's the thread I want running through the book. And I really appreciate you inviting me to join you today.

1:02:43And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? An article in the Wall Street Journal caught my eye this week, Dennis. Your favorite paper. It is a great paper. It was a really interesting study that came out recently saying that now when it comes to leasing retail locations, places that do services now outnumber stores that sell stuff. So there's more spas, gyms, fitness centers than there are shoe stores in America, which is kind of crazy for the first time ever since they've been tracking these numbers, which is really interesting.

1:03:22Did you read that one? I did. I saw that story. I forced the lovely Mrs. Gully to let me read it to her and share the whole thing with her. I think it's so fascinating. And I think we're going to be talking about this whole wellness and spas and service thing in the design industry so much more because it's obviously just become such a huge part of the retail landscape and the high-end service landscape as well. Yeah, I think it's, you know, we've talked about on the show before and how people want experiences and they'll spend more on that than they will on stuff. And I think that's kind of like received wisdom.

1:03:55But when you see a number like that, there's more of this than that. It really, you know, brings it to clarity. And I think it's a great subject and one that everybody should be thinking about a little bit. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? A couple of things caught my eye. One was we were talking about William Sonoma earlier. And interestingly, William Sonoma has this giant test kitchen where they test a lot of their products and all of their cooking supplies. and they were feeling like the kitchen was in need of a little bit of a new face. And so they called in no other great expert than Christopher Peacock, friend of the show.

1:04:35And just one of the best in the biz. And so Christopher Peacock helped them design what looked like a pretty fantastic looking test kitchen. And kudos to them. But I was thrilled to see him get called in on that project. And I wish them well with that. The other thing that caught my eye was there was a piece in this Sunday's New York Times profiling longtime antique dealer Louis Bofferdin, who is a favorite of many of the AD100 designers that we talk about on the show. And Louis Bofferdin is a longtime antique dealer who sadly is finally going to give in to the pressure to go online. No. And I feel like we need to reach out to him for the show and get his take on things.

1:05:27But Richard Keith Langham, among other designers, is sort of bemoaning the thought of not having his shop to run around and just pick up anything he ever needed for any project ever. But he's a much beloved dealer, and I hope that he will find success online. But it does mark the end of a chapter, Fred. Sign of the times. Indeed. Let's hope we get to talk to him in the future. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com.

1:06:08This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.