The Thursday Show: Schumacher's CEO weighs in on the state of the industry. Plus: Kim Kardashian settles her knockoff lawsuit

25:06Magnolia caught up in that as well, right? They're one of those channels. Exactly. So unfortunately, that side of the business is being burdened with the biggest part of the debt as well. And so, as you say, there's going to be a lot of motivation to cut costs. And as we talked about, the cord cutting phenomena has led to, just a really dramatic drop in viewership of some of the big HGTV shows. But also a lot of the DIY shows and a lot of the things that Rob Anderson has created some great comedy around were what the network used to be about. And then it became a real estate flipping kind of network, right?

25:48And so it really changed. And there was a feeling that a lot of that seemed very out of step with a lot of the issues that we talk about around housing affordability and where interest rates are right now and all of that. Billy, you loving this? Interest rates? Isn't this the fun conversation you were hoping for, Billy, as we totally turn this around? But I do think, I love that Billy sent us the clip, and it is really humorous to look back on what HGTV was. But it is also interesting to think about what it became and now how that plays into the world that we live in today and where people are getting all of this content from TikTok, which mercifully has yet again been saved, Fred, from going away.

26:32I don't know what the fate of HGTV is. I'm wary to stick a fork in it, as I said, because I think that even AOL still exists and makes hundreds of millions of dollars and people are weaned off these habits very slowly. There's still an audience for it. But I suspect that in 10 years, designers will be upset about the effect that TikTok creators are having on their clients, as opposed to the effect that HGTV shows are having on their clients. I think that's just sort of the new reality we all have to get used to. Yeah. Well, Billy, I hope that was the fun story you were hoping for. Thanks so much for sending that in.

27:04And we encourage more people to send us funny video clips that we can turn into a downer of a conversation on the show. All right. That's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including July's Can't Miss Design events and what the sluggish spring housing market means for designers. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

27:29We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Lalloy. For over 20 years, Lalloy has been driven by strong foundations, a belief in beauty, a commitment to collaboration, and the quiet conviction that things made well and with purpose have the power to provide comfort for generations. From product designs until the moment a rug arrives at your door, at Lalloy, we're all woven together. Learn more at lalloyrugs.com. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com. And follow at Lalloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok.

28:12And we're back. I'm joined now by Schumacher's CEO, Timur Yuma-Saklar. Timur, welcome back to the show. Thanks. Good to be back. Well, always a pleasure to talk with you. And we've got a lot to talk about, including, wait, a new acquisition, Teletextiles, which we were just talking about on the show recently. I'm eager to hear what made you want to make that acquisition. I think craftsmanship and like an incredible history of like design language. We were honestly mesmerized by what the founders, Leslie and Didi, had crafted together. I think they started out printing literally on the Upper East Side in some, today, very expensive townhouse.

28:55I think the shop was first floor and then printing and then living, I think. But no, but in all seriousness, I think this dedication to craftsmanship and this dedication to explore a new design language around patterns, motifs, and repeats and techniques is actually surprisingly rare to find in our industry. And I think there were real trailblazers at the time. They had this very interesting exhibition with Eames and Noguchi at the time, like the Eames chairs and the rice paper lamps. And I think it shows you a little bit more how groundbreaking they were. And so, yeah, I think that's where the whole idea started, I think, for us.

29:34Well, that's so interesting. So how did they first get on your radar? Did someone bring it to you? Had you been familiar with them in the past? Yeah, our company had done business. We acquired two patterns from Diddy and Leslie in the last century. And so I think we always had been friendly with each other. And, you know, we knew Patrick, who was the most recent in the extended family, who was like, you know, running the print shop for them. And so, yeah, we always knew. And I visited him. He had a printing shop right on the Appalachian Trail in Great Barrington. And he and a friend of mine visited him like a few years back.

30:10And, yeah, that's how we started the conversation. And then we kept on going. So it seemed like a fairly small operation. Do I have that right? It's not a big... That's correct, yeah. So it seems very specialty. And do you plan to just sort of continue to run it separately for now? Or what's your thinking? Yes, I think that's actually one of the main objectives, right? To keep the integrity of the brand. We'll explore also wallpaper because we also have a printing workshop in New Jersey where we print our own wallpaper. So we're going to do fabric and wallpaper, all hand screen printed. But we will keep the access to their vast and quite beautiful archive somewhat limited to like a more exclusive group and a little more, you know, to bespoke and custom.

30:55because we really also want to take the integrity and we do not want to run the risk of watering down that design language. It's interesting because we've been talking about a lot of acquisitions and deals lately on the show, right? David Netto's buying Woodard Weave and there've been a whole sort of range of relatively small acquisitions, but interesting companies that we didn't want to see go away. And this felt like one of those, like it would be a shame for this company to go away. Great that you stepped in and acquired it and can see where it can lead. Yeah, I agree with this. I mean, you know, we have like, you know, we are the, in our space of the industry, we're the oldest ones in the United States.

31:33We have been always dedicated to craftsmanship, to also like a really healthy portion of made in the United States. And I do think it's part of our responsibility as an organization to preserve this craftsmanship for at least the next generation. and they can decide where to take it from this. But we are artistically concerned that so much is going digital, particularly on the fabric side. You know, when there are like performance problems with like digital printed fabrics, but it's also, you know, how far are we away from the moment where you asked JetGPT, please give me an, you know, like a tree of life in light green in this repeat.

32:15And then you get it back and like, you know, two weeks printed digitally. On some level, this is maybe liberating, which I fully understand. And on the other hand, I think it is so beautiful. It's like actually one of my happy places is literally our screen printing workshop. And you just see like the dedication and also like how the eyes react with the linens. And so, yeah, and I think as part of that, I think we are always open to help out very traditional brands in the United States or to acquire them or so. And I think that's an important part of what we do and I think what we stand for. Well, so is that a message that you want to put out, Timur, that you're open for more acquisitions?

32:54No, I don't mean it in this way. Because they could come flooding into you at any moment. I mean, we put that out. That's fair. No, it's more about the preservation, right? Before something goes away, we would like to see how we can help. Before someone just decides to shut their doors and goes away, yeah, for sure. Yeah, in this case, please reach out first. Yes, I agree with that. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I mean, and as we talked about, I mean, this company had a very special history and a connection to Albert Hadley and Jackie Kennedy. And so there were some great names involved. And so it's, as you say, it's wonderful to see it not go away.

33:32I feel as if maybe it's a generational moment that there just seem to be a lot of companies that might not have a successor lined up. And maybe there are more conversations like that to be had. Yes? Yes. I do share that. I do think particularly on the printing side of fabrics, given I think the technology changes, yes, I think that market is on the move. We also have seen larger printing mills go out of business due to that. There is a movement in that market all around, good and bad, or good and difficult, I should say. Yeah. So, you know, I think that's true. I do think that's particularly true for that end of the market.

34:18You know, there's also like tons of like really interesting new artisan printing houses come along and some of them are really unique and very exceptional. So I kind of like, you know, but. Yeah, no, no, it's interesting what's popping up and people seem to be much more experimental these days. I'm curious in thinking about past acquisitions, you and I were talking just before we came on air about Backdrop, for example, the paint brand that you acquired a few years back. I'm curious how that has fit in with what you've been doing and what you've learned from making that acquisition. I know that was a big part of wanting to do it was the learning experience that might come from it.

34:57Yeah, that's a good question. So we learned a lot. I think we're very happy of where we are now. I think it's actually very successful now. I have a fond respect for the paint industry. I think that part of the thesis was, I think, a little more difficult. called we are dedicated to paint i think it's a very it's a very important tool i think in every designer's toolbox i think we think it's a very interesting gateway for design enthusiasts but you know for reasons i think it's like you know dominated by some you know like few companies like you know benjamin moore and sherman williams so we learned a lot about this and i'm still learning about you know ti-2s or whatever they're called and you know pigments but the other thing what is just magnificent around it is that you know natalie was our creative director there like you know her energy around you know like a new design language that is like you know in a positive sense free from tradition and engaging like i think with an audience we as an organization have not yet been as much engaged with has worked really really well and is really exciting i think we're and this is not a rule of small numbers i think we're close to doubling again our wallpaper our business on backdrop, which is very exciting.

36:13And also, it's also like artistically, I think, just something really fresh and new. So I think we're very happy on that part of the thesis played out better than we thought and made up for my paint mistake. Well, listen, I mean, as you say, paint is complicated and the competitors are enormous. I mean, Benjamin Moore is a Berkshire Hathaway company. I mean, it's enormous, right? So I don't envy anyone trying to go up against them in a meaningful way. But I'm also struck by, I mean, I was just in London, which is where you are at the moment. And I visited with Beata Heyman. She was showing me her paint collection, which was this lovely edited collection of sort of her favorites.

36:59And I feel as if more designers are doing collaborations with paint and trying to sort of narrow down the broad selection. It seems to be getting a lot of attention. I think so, because I think that the paint is a wonderful material, right? And I think, you know, and Backdrop has a very curated palette, which I think is really like also good for that. because I think particularly we see it around trims, cabinet paint, doors. And so there's a lot of accents you can make without busting the budget. So I can see that, I don't know. I mean, we sell a lot of wallpapers. I'm not sure if I want paint to come back all around.

37:41But I do think it's a very interesting category and I think an important one. And I also think this is one of the categories where I see technical innovation still happening, right? With the different pigments and, you know, you have more plaster and other things. And so, you know, so yeah, it is really interesting. Yeah, no, no, it is. And I hear you. I don't want it to take away the wallpaper business. And truthfully, I was just staying at the Ham Yard, one of Kit Kemp's hotels when I was there. And I think we need a lot more fabric covered walls. That was my big takeaway, right? I mean - I was just talking to a real granny this morning about it.

38:20the best for the acoustics in the room. I, you are joking. I would wish every restaurant would do that. Yes. What, like, fabric covered walls are the best for the acoustic in a room and make it so nice and cozy. So, I agree with that. Yeah. No, no, no. I, I was having lunch in a restaurant yesterday that could have benefited greatly from some, some fabric on the walls because you just can't even hear the person across the table from you. Exactly. It's, it's too loud. So, speaking of you and Veer Granny running around town, and I want to hear more about that friendship, another time, but it sounds like you both paid a visit to Chelsea Harbor and visited the Wow House.

38:55What did you think? I think it was fascinating. It was so well executed. The two things I really like about it is that because it's for, I don't know if everybody, I didn't understand fully what the Wow House was. So I think it's like this house built from scratch, like it would be like for a trade fair or something, right? So it's not a lasting house, but it's like, it looks really fun. and what I really like about it is that it gives the best opportunity to create rooms you can actually really decorate easily and like make something out of it and so it like you know really shows something the second thing what I really like about it is that it partners designers with brands in a different way than you normally see in the US and it gives everybody a little bit more skin in the game right because like for example when we did our wow house with we are granny last year yeah we went all out you know like it was important to us too it's you know it's not yes we love like donating fabric to show houses around the country but if we actually put our name on it yeah we were supported via granny wherever we could and he did the most magnificent job on it so i think i personally find it was like i was really you know positively surprised maybe i shouldn't even been surprised but about the energy around it which was very good so a big shout out to the Chelsea Harbor Design Center for that.

40:12I love that. I would love if someone would do this in the US where someone would rather build a set. And, you know, with that, you get the best experience. And then I think they charge you, I think, 25 British pounds to it, which I think is a fairly healthy, I think, ticket, you know, I think, but I do think the partnering between the brands and the designers also give it extra energy because like every, you know, brand really wants to advertise and obviously and promote the warehouse. So yeah, I think it's a great innovation. So if that would make its way over to the United States, I would not mind.

40:45Okay. Well, we'll see if we can make that happen. See if we can take Claire German over to the States and have her drive that as if she doesn't have enough on her plate. But it's also interesting seeing that design center. And I'm always so jealous comparing it to the D &D building when I'm over in Chelsea Harbor and I'm sitting down having a lovely lunch in the middle of the design center. and there's all of this activity and light pouring in and all of that. It just makes me long for a nicer design center. Business of home design center? Is that what you're saying, Dennis? I don't know. Maybe.

41:23Yeah, it is really nice, I have to say. Because, yeah, this morning I had a nice Americano and croissant in the middle of it. So I agree with that. Yes, exactly. So, yes, I do think it has a lot of light. I think it's a really nice building. And I think I do think that is like, I think for me currently one of the key benchmarks, I think, in the world of design centers I've seen. I would say that, yes. Speaking of design centers, so you recently came into the New York Design Center with somewhat of a different feeling showroom for you. Tell me about that. Yeah, we have been talking to Jim like a long time.

41:58And, you know, I think he is one of, I think, the, you know, few landlords that does like tremendous amounts for the design community in the United States. And I think we're very grateful for that. We always had and will have like our showrooms for Pedersen Flynn and Schumacher in the D &D building. But we've been talking for a long time. We always liked the energy. We liked, I think, you know, it has a slightly different feel to us. And I think the energy Jim and his team brings to it. And we wanted to, instead of just replicating what we do at the D &D, we call it like, you know, Schumacher Downtown.

42:32It was actually almost like a self-discovery, which I think turned out actually kind of wonderful for us is that because we have so much wonderful product that's not all, you know, statement patterns, we have actually really good textures and, you know, mohairs and velvets and all of that. And we wanted to bring this out a little bit more. We also, it's a, you know, we also own Patterson Flynn. And so we combined Patterson Flynn in there, which I think really like works together well between like a really good, you know, floor covering, wallpaper and, you know, fabric now. And so, yeah, it has been actually quite successful so far.

43:06I think traffic has been really robust. So, yeah, I think we're excited to see where it gets us. It's a little bit new to us, too, I have to say. It's not a little bit of a new concept, so we're also finding our way around it. And so I always have been a big proponent of self-discovery, innovation, trying out new things. Sometimes I'm very curious, and sometimes my colleagues are saying it would be nice if he's not as curious. Yes, but I think that's what I think is a fair comment sometimes. But I do think it's very important, you know, to stay fresh, to do interesting things. And yeah, I think and so I think like the Schumacher Downtown has been really interesting to us and very exciting for us.

43:48And it gives us a lot of confidence that, you know, we can be more than statement patterns, I think, with our basics, our solids, our textures. And I think that's really good for us as an exploration and expansion. Well, and tell me how that relates to the boutiques that you've been opening in different parts of the country that have even a different kind of feel from the design center spaces. Yeah, the boutiques, we have one in Nashville and one in Charlotte so far. Well, they were born a little bit from the necessity that we were, there was a time that started before COVID where we started to feel a little bit constrained by the presence of design centers or like larger design centers, right?

44:32And we needed to build the courage to step outside of design centers. and what we try to solve for is like we are like but i think like our culture is very inviting and i think i do i hope we're like you know very welcoming and so we did want to welcome homeowners if they stumble upon us and you know they walk in some design centers are more designed that a homeowner does not come in and so they're a little bit more hidden and so it's a bit harder to hide otherwise right and so we developed this boutique idea not to sell to homeowners we do not want to sell to homeowners. And I think actually this boutique has verified that and solidified that, but we do want to engage with them.

45:08And so we did two things combined at the same time. One, we started having these two boutiques now, which have some merchandise and there's like, you can buy candles then you can buy books then some pillows or so, but not fabric or not wallpaper or not rugs. And the second thing we did is we started publishing our own books and we started making candles and we started making really high-end wrapping papers and things like that because it's important for us to give homeowners the ability to engage with us. But we do highly prefer when they buy expensive curtain from us that they use an expert to do that and who knows which workroom to go to, right?

45:52But these together worked, but also we learned we're not a retail company and we do not want to be a retail company. Speaking of things that you're spending a lot of money on, should we talk about Frederick? Let's talk about... My favorite spending item. Yeah, I love that. Yes. Does that have its own separate line items on the budget for Frederick? I mean, all joking aside, you've got some new distribution deal, it sounds like. Yes, greater exposure. So tell me about that. Yeah, we're very excited. We're now partnered with Hudson News. so we're like distributing now in all the main you know transit points in around tri-state area and los angeles which is very exciting for us which i think is just a new you know frontier because and this was like because we have been one of the best-selling items and bonds and nobles for a long time we have like really very high sell-through rates which is very exciting yeah so we did that i know yeah it has its own pnl yes it does it's not it's not black but it does have its own clean house you know so you know but yeah but i think the energy around it we really love and uh you know it's like it always had started darren i said from the beginning it's a quality first project and then the hypothesis that money would follow and that is very much true with the case yeah i do and i said this actually i think in one of our previous conversation.

47:15I do fundamentally believe in this community and I do believe we're only going to be successful altogether. I always have said that I'm sometimes surprised about the level of sometimes like competition and sometimes even petty between companies. And, you know, like it's not, you know, it's like probably everywhere, but because we are so intertwined, I also really find that, you know, I find like designers are true magicians and I do think it's our responsibility not only to to sell to them, but to promote them where we can. And that has not changed. And so all of this is just coming from that.

47:51And there is like a long-term business rationale in the sense that I think my company, our company is only going to be as strong as the entire industry. And that is more important for me than me being like 2 % higher than just my next one over by putting them down. There's never been me. So. Yeah. No, no, I know. And I know you've often talked about the community and wishing that more companies would work more collaboratively with you. And I think this whole notion of supporting the design community and honestly, for this whole industry, such an important component in all of this is how do we continue to engage people and make them want to hire designers to help them with their homes?

48:35Because that's what keeps this whole industry together, which is why I'm so curious. And I mean, again, I joke about design centers, but I'm always trying to get a handle on what role design centers are playing. And when I was in London, Claire German was talking about how do we engage this next generation of designers? How do we make sure that they feel a part of coming to the design center, being part of this community, that they're not just behind a computer screen, but they're really out in the world? And this is a huge problem that we have in the States and that I talk about often with lots of people.

49:10You talk to a lot of seasoned designers and they tell you their younger staff members aren't going to design centers and aren't coming to see product in the same way. And so what do we do about that? Solve this, Timo, please. I wish I could. I mean, I have like two hypotheses. Let's actually agree. So the first thing I would say, right, if I could, I would not pay rent in my design centers. I would pay them either per traffic or almost for their Instagram or other social media activity. I don't understand the conceptually why I'm paying rent, but I think in terms of the value I'm looking for is traffic in my showroom, right?

49:53And I think there's a disconnect between that, where my rent is not tight, and therefore design centers, well, at least some design centers, seem to be as incentivized to drive up my traffic correct. And because there is in some cities, there's the only place that's why I think some owners like it is that you can only go to one design center. So that's also not the need. And I think that's why, you know, big shout out again to, you know, Chelsea Harbor. You know, I think they do really invest into this. I'm sure this wild house was very expensive. And the second thing is, sure, online, right? I do think there's just no way around it.

50:33I think you just have to be better and better and better online. And the third thing, though, is, you know, and I think Frederick is part of that. Our ITLIS is part of that. I think, you know, us opening in Charlotte, opening in Nashville is part of that. But I think we have announced, I think, that we're opening in Charleston. I can share that we are opening in Birmingham. Oh, okay. So, yeah. And all of this is because we also feel we need to be closer and closer connected to our community. Yeah. I mean, honestly, today, I think it's hard to, that overused expression of meeting people where they are.

51:08I think it's harder and harder to figure out where they are or where they want to be. 100 % agreed. Yeah. So it is challenging. Another big challenge that we have to face in the industry today, I didn't want to bring it up, Timor, but we've got to talk about tariffs. Shall we? Let me check the news. Well, exactly. I mean, we need to timestamp this. So Timor and I are talking on Friday the 13th. And as far as we know, we seem to have made some deal with Britain. I'm glad we got that out of the way, one of our biggest trading partners. Oh, wait, no, not really at all. But great that that's done.

51:45The EU, it seems like things have calmed down there. I mean, tell me how tariffs have shown up in your world. Yeah, they show up as a line item in my material costs. They show up when I go down to collect my imported goods. That's correct. So that does, you know, they have the habit of just debiting. Right. No, I think it is. I do think it is a very severe problem, right? I think that it also seems to me a little bit everybody has forgotten that there's very much everywhere like a 10 % increase in tariffs all around. I think it's more like I think the 10 % is one. It's more the uncertainty, which I think you have heard before, but it's more the uncertainty I think that stresses everybody out, including me.

52:29And the third thing is, which is interesting, we are concerned for the currency exchange rates. So I think it's important for, you know, like everybody to understand that the tariffs is one. But if the dollar is weak, right? And so like the dollar has lost about 10%. So now I'm like 10 % down for tariffs. Now I'm 10%, another 10 % down for currency exchange rates when I buy my goods overseas, even if the dollar denodinated, because eventually they will say, look, I need, you know, it's not as worth as much. And so that is a real problem. And so, yeah, I think that's a 20 % charge to my material cost.

53:03So between the currency devaluation and the tariffs, suddenly, yeah, suddenly there's 20 % that has to go somewhere. And it's been interesting to see, we keep waiting for the CPI and the PPI, the consumer price index and the producer price index to have these numbers show up in some meaningful way. They haven't yet, but you feel like any minute that number has to show up somewhere. Everybody can't be eating these costs. Yeah, so that's correct. But we have, for example, also not increased our cost yet, right? So we have kept our cost stable. So I do think we're approaching the point where we might have to also increase our price by 2%, 3 % or so.

53:42But the reason why we have not, and I do think that's important to point out, right? As an organization, because particularly if you have inventory, you don't need to increase your price immediately. So you have like a few months or so to do so and to see what really happens, right? And so I think, for example, everybody who increased the prices on day one, it's their own decision. But, you know, from what I understand, I don't think that was like yet due to immediate tariffs. Right. So so I think for us, it was important to fully understand. So I believe that we will see it really in Q4, where like, you know, I think now during the summer months, I think we'll see a significant price increases all around.

54:17And then I think it will start really showing up, like, let's say in the, you know, consumer index numbers and inflation numbers, like probably September, maybe. Hopefully I'm wrong. And maybe like by that time, it's all fine. But I do think it will have an impact, particularly as the double whammy. You know, I think tariffs and currency, that is a double whammy. That's not easy. And the problem with the unpredictability is I feel as though it is becoming increasingly clear that the Federal Reserve perhaps ought to be lowering rates in this environment. We are seeing unemployment creeping up. We are seeing other signs of slowing in the economy.

54:51But the Fed continues to say that their hands are somewhat tied because of the lack of clarity around when the tariff costs are going to show up and what inflationary impact that's going to have. Yeah, I think it is a very tricky environment to make any long-term decisions. I also find, you know, let's say the Fed reduces, that's nice for mortgage rates and eventually maybe for, you know, the home industry, which we are an extension of. But on the other hand, that's most likely going to suppress, you know, the US dollar even further, right? So like if you would say like the Fed reduces, it's, you know, like interest rates by, I don't know, 300, 400 basis, well, not 400, but let's say 200 basis points, yeah, it will have significant impact because I think the Europeans and British Bank of England is already at the bottom.

55:36So, yeah. Right, exactly. And that's what I'm wondering. I mean, on the one hand, we do need to unlock the housing market, right? Totally. Multiple years in this frozen housing market. I mean, it's not good for anybody. But of course, as you say, lowering interest rates probably would have even greater impact on the dollar. And this whole sort of changing relationship that we seem to be having with Europe and with Britain, right, is not helping from that perspective. Finally, Timur, I'm wondering, as we wrap up, you alluded to the fact earlier, and I was curious about this, perhaps to your own surprise, you've been at Schumacher for 10 years now.

56:22Right? Did you see that coming? Did you? No, I'm as surprised as you are. But I have fallen in love with this industry. I have to say that too. So I feel like I've built wonderful friendships, you know, in this industry. And so, you know, I'm still here apparently. I feel like the first time we spoke, you were like, yes, I'm curious about this industry. I'd love to learn a bit. You know, I sort of felt like you weren't really settling in. but now suddenly we're a decade into this and i'm and i'm curious i mean i know you've fallen for this industry in a big way what is it you learned about this industry that that makes you feel the way you you do well first i would say the first time you interviewed me you brought crackers cheese and wine you know and so you know i think that so something's changed you know but i don't know if that was like you just wanted to you know okay you're in london i you know had i been able to be in the same place, but okay.

57:17So the hospitality level's gone down here pretty good. All right. All right. I get it. All good. But I do think that the industry is at a very interesting infliction point. I do find it fascinating. We have, as an organization, the last 10 years, 11 years, since Jara started, she started a year before me, grown tremendously. And I think we have a lot of fun and a lot of energy. And I think Yeah, we're not done yet. I'm not going to be here for another 135 years, but I'm excited for the things to come. Well, I mean, it seems like there's so much more that you still want to do. And I do think it's interesting, this inflection point that we're in.

58:00I honestly, so many people are still questioning even this to-the-trade model. I was on the earnings call for RH last night, and the CEO, Gary Friedman, loves to poke at the to-the-trade model, saying that it's very cryptic and lacks transparency and all of that. I don't know your take there. I know you like RH as a topic, but I don't know even what to say to this. Because if you want to have a beautiful home, it is really difficult. It is like you put in there, I don't know, five to whatever, depending on how big your house is, like 500 and more items, right? It's like for them all to match that the colors match to just the project management alone would it worth to me, right?

58:46The same thing is, you know, we're not giving away a trade secret now, but like, you know, into designers get a discount. So I don't, you almost get the whole service, not for free, but I think you've got a really value-add service. And on top of that, you're not going to be surprised when your, let's say, RH sofa arrives. It's much bigger than you thought because you bought it in some huge room and now it's not looking the same. And then you need to call it into a designer. No, I think into a designer are true artists. I like to call them magicians because I really don't understand how they do it all.

59:16The second thing is it is a complicated thing to do. And, you know, we talked about paint. We talked about wallpaper. Now you want to have the right bathroom, whatever. You want to think through how the light and everything works in your house. It's really complicated. I also think more and more interior designers do renovations upwards, right? They do a lot of the architecture work. This profession, I think, is well and alive. I think, in my opinion, actually, if I would have to decide, rather thriving. So I do what I do. So yeah, sometimes it takes courage to call an interior designer, but I wish more people would because it's not really, it's actually quite helpful once you have someone who knows what they're doing.

59:57I like it. I love this because like I always say, I'm surprised because we go to a lawyer or to a dentist for a reason. I don't understand why we don't go into an interior designer for the same. I mean, they're like as professionals or educated in their field. No, no. I raised that just because it's so interesting that looking at that model, And I just think that you and I are very much on the same page. I wish that designers were perceived on that same level of professionalism as lawyers and dentists and others. And that's where I really want this industry to get to. Timur, thank you so much for making the time to talk with me.

1:00:35Always a pleasure. Likewise. Thank you so much for having me, Dennis, as always. Fun.

1:00:43And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? This isn't in the industry, but my upcoming vacation has very much caught my eye. Caught my eye, Fred. I'm going to be out for the next couple of weeks. So, listeners, we're both going to be out next week for July 4th. There will be no Thursday show. But the week after that, Caitlin will be filling in again for me. And then I will be back the following week when I try to remember what the design industry is after being away for two weeks.

1:01:14so that is that's definitely on my mind but in the meantime i hope listeners will appreciate that i am the podcast's resident kelly wortler watcher yes she is the bellwether for for how the design industry is going and i will say in all sincerity i feel like she really is ahead of you know trends in the media she started a sub stack very early you know a lot of designers are doing it now she was there first and uh i've noticed recently she's just posting so much more video content on her Instagram feed is so much more kind of like something behind the scenes. You can kind of tell she it's not super natural for her.

1:01:48She doesn't like talking and stuff, but she's really like putting herself into it and like, you know, putting herself on video and kind of saying funny things and showing people what her, you know, her personality is like a little bit more, you know, as opposed to, you know, a lot of the content that you would historically post, which is more of these like manicured sort of photo shoot type things. So I know it's a very in the weeds thing, but I really do think that, you know, that is the way all these platforms are going. Kelly knows she's doing it. I would recommend designers follow suit and try and find a way to make video work for them.

1:02:19Because I think, you know, where Kelly goes, so goes the industry. And I actually think it's very endearing the way she shares that it's not what comes naturally for her. I think it's very sweet that someone who is such a giant in the industry is willing to look vulnerable in that way. So I actually admire that part of the whole effort as well. 100%. What caught your eye this week, Dennis? As listeners know, I was sad about the news that Hada Bing was stepping down as the editor at House and Garden, but we finally have a replacement for her, and we wrote about it this week on Business of Home.

1:02:52Talib Chaudhry is going to be the new editor-in-chief. He comes from the Middle East version of Architectural Digest, and he's very well thought of in the industry, and I'm told by the Condé Nast media team that he is brimming with ideas for the title. So I'm glad that there is a successor for Hattabing, and I wish him luck, and I hope that we'll be talking to him on the show soon once he gets his footing, but it sounds like end of July he'll be stepping in. Excellent, yeah, I hope to hear from him on the show. Yeah, no, I look forward to talking to him soon. All right, that's all the time we have today.

1:03:27Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Kastaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.