The Thursday Show: The dupe war is over. Plus: 50 years of Blackberry Farm

20:57Fred Nicolaus:And the problem with that kind of, you know, trend forecasting is it's become almost commoditized because everyone's looking at the same data. And so her point was like, I want to do something more boutique. I want to do my own research and go down interesting little avenues and that'll be, you know, a differentiator. But I do think it's, it's a challenge because they talked about like, they try not to even use the word trend because like so many designers and people are like, well, we don't really follow trends. So you're not for us, but trends exist. Like, I'm sorry. Like, even if you don't follow them, they're driving the market.

21:25Fred Nicolaus:You know, their structural reasons, like, you know, obviously, like, people change their wardrobe pretty frequently. They don't change their home that frequently. And no interior designer wants to say, like, I'll give you the hottest house for February and then we'll do it again. I'm sure they'd love that. But, you know, I think that's not an effective sales pitch. And, you know, you understand the desire to be timeless because the, you know, the timeline of living in your home and enjoying it is certainly longer. But I do think there's just no denying that, you know, you're affected by what happens in culture.

21:52Fred Nicolaus:You know, the reason I did this story is because Gosling Group was doing this trend forecasting service. It's more affordable. It's almost kind of like a newsletter where you get access to their research for a pretty low price, like$20 a month or something. Which is really interesting just to see these really deep dives into aesthetics. You know, I feel like Becca was talking about how most people's access to what's going on in aesthetics is, it's just like you either buy into WGSN, which is thousands of dollars, or you're just kind of looking at social media and seeing what you see. So it's interesting to have access to someone who's really doing these deep research, informed dives into aesthetics and the moment and culture and all that.

22:26Fred Nicolaus:And, you know, this isn't for everybody, but it's a really interesting proposition. And I loved chatting with him about it. And, you know, it definitely made me think a little bit differently about what a trend actually is. Yeah. And it's interesting to get that perspective. And I do think that I just think they're inescapable. Even when designers say, oh, I went over to Europe and I saw this in the marketplace, as if somehow that's not a trend, when obviously that is the trend of what's happening in that particular marketplace. But they brought it home, and so it's not a trend yet here. Okay, well, I guess it will be now that you're hopping on board.

22:57So I don't know. I just think you can't escape. And we have to acknowledge that, of course, they're all around us. Except us, Dennis. We're timeless. We're the only two. We're the only two people. Couldn't agree more. Speaking of trends, we're going to talk about stainless steel. For the Wall Street Journal this week, Misty White Seidel wrote about the growing demand for stainless steel home goods, despite rising prices due to, wait for it, tariffs. That's right. We got them into the show.

23:25Fred Nicolaus:The 11th hour, we got the T word into this. I mean, I do think we haven't really talked that much about steel tariffs, right? Because, of course, we're talking mainly about the upholstery tariffs and all that good stuff. But, you know, and most of the time we've been talking about steel tariffs, it's been in the context of it's going to raise the price of home building, which certainly it has. But there are plenty of, you know, fixtures and home furnishings made out of steel. It's impacted a lot of people that I talk to. But it's funny because, like, I did this big article last year about how tariffs will affect aesthetics in the design industry.

23:53Fred Nicolaus:And, you know, my basic thesis was kind of what you'd expect. Like, as certain kinds of things get more expensive, brands will do them less. And so they'll be, you know, therefore less in the marketplace because it won't sustain it. But, you know, this article's thesis is basically like steel has gotten 45 percent more expensive and that's made it more desirable and people want it more. So in a weird way, the tariff has maybe played a role in elevating this trend. I don't know if you would agree with that thesis, but it's an interesting one. Well, it's an interesting lens through which to look at it.

24:22I mean, stainless steel comes in and out of fashion. There was a moment where every kitchen needed to be stainless steel. Every apartment in New York City was listed as having stainless steel kitchens, and that was a premium item, and you knew you were getting value for that. And then that quickly went away, and that was thought to be too cold or too industrial, and now it seems to have swung back. So, I mean, I think stainless steel, it's interesting in the furniture world to see its growing appeal.

24:53Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, I mean, I think that the kitchen thing is almost its own thing of the rise of everyone wanting a professional kitchen because they just watched The Bear or whatever, or they just read Anthony Bourdain. And so that's maybe its own thing. But there are these interesting fixtures made out of stainless steel. You know, it's funny. I think this is a great article. I don't want to overstate what it's saying because it didn't seem to me that, you know, the author like spoke to every home furnishings person in the world and did a million. This is kind of pulling a few interesting examples and pointing out, oh, this stainless steel is popular.

25:22Fred Nicolaus:That's kind of cool. So I don't think we should take this to be a sign that, you know, stainless steel is taking over the world or anything like that. But, you know, there do appear to be, you know, several little moments popping up here and there that, you know, go against what you'd expect given the, you know, the regulatory environment, the tariff environment, so to speak. And it just sort of makes you think about how, you know, whether it's the bear or whether it's tariffs, like lots of different factors kind of ping around and that's how you get these trends or these little bubbles that pop up and not to talk about the K-shaped economy again, but I do feel that like, you know, tariffs making something more expensive can sort of put it at the top of that K and make it more desirable.

25:58Fred Nicolaus:You know, I don't know if that's exactly what happened here, but it may be part of it. And so, you know, I don't know, we should look at what else has like a really high tariff on it and see if it pops up at high point because, you know, it's kind of a backwards way into it, but I do think it happens. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to think about steel and suddenly it having this increase in value, almost as if it's a precious metal like gold or platinum, and therefore making it more desirable when it's so industrial. It made me think of Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged, where he's so proud of his new steel that he had made, and he made his wife a piece of jewelry, and she sort of tossed it off.

26:37Why would I want this steel piece of luxury item that would normally be made of platinum? them or, oh, and what did she say? Like, oh, well, most men would bring diamonds or something like that. But he was so proud of this metal he created. And it's just funny to think of steel as suddenly being this highly coveted metal and suddenly so much more valuable or desired. But in the home world, clearly, steel's having a moment.

27:01Fred Nicolaus:Yeah. What does the Fountainhead say about Ivory Boucle? I forget. Was there that more section? Let's do a separate Ayn Rand. Yeah, exactly. She had lots of opinions on the subject, to be sure. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a new design-centric sample sale and a look at Somnigroup's$2.3 billion acquisition. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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28:52And we're back. I'm joined now by Mary Celeste Bell, the proprietor of Blackberry Farm. Mary Celeste, so nice to talk with you again. Oh, Dennis, it is always a treat to talk to you. I loved our last conversation, and I always love when I bump into you somewhere fun. Well, I'm delighted to talk with you. And as you point out, the last time that you and I were talking, I was sitting beside you at the lovely Blackberry Farm. Sadly, we're not together in person this time around, but I always enjoy the opportunity to speak with you. And we have so much to talk about, and we're going to break the news of this exciting new book that is coming out.

29:33And I want to get to that. But first, tell me how you're doing. Tell me what's going on at Blackberry Farm. Every time I turn around, there's a podcast. There's a magazine. There's chefs from around the world are dropping by, musicians. What's been happening over the summer? So this has been a really big year for us. It's actually our 50th anniversary. So we've been celebrating all year long. For the 50th, we have launched our podcast. I would love to have you on it, but you'd have to come be in person. Well, all right. All right. I'll come. I'll come to Blackbird. We'll have to make that happen.

30:11But we have been taking the opportunity every time we have some extra special guests on property, we've been taking the chance to have them on our podcast. And it's kind of a really true reflection of what BlackBerry is all about is all these interesting people coming for different reasons and enjoying the place that I call home. It's really fun. But to the point that you were just making, this conversation about what BlackBerry is all about, tell people a little bit about that. For people that might not be familiar with the magical world that is Blackberry. Well, Blackberry Farm was my in-law's home starting in 1976.

31:00And my husband, Sam, who passed away in 2016, basically grew up there. Blackberry has been in our family since the 70s. And it's just grown over the years. And so it is grown into 4 ,200 acres adjacent to the Smoky Mountain National Park. We are very well known for our food and wine programming. And we have incredible chefs and this enormous wine cellar. But being outside and exploring the Smokies is a huge part of what we do. We have a four-acre garden. There's fly fishing. There's an equestrian program. Tons of hiking. And then we have this whole farm element. And then to add to the farm, we have a mountain.

31:48It's called Blackberry Mountain. So they're two totally different places, but all driven by our family and our passion for really taking care of people and something we've been doing for 50 years. Yeah. And on the occasion of this 50th anniversary, you've been working for goodness knows how long this remarkable book that will be coming out October 20th. And it's BlackBerry 50. And from what I've seen of it, it is both a beautiful book of images and history, but also an incredible array of contributors who wrote in from writers and food people and music people and just so many people who have – Lamar Alexander had a lot to say about how much the place means.

32:44So tell me about this project and when it began and what it really has turned out to be. You know, it's a really incredible feeling. But I think more than anything, it's so special because it's truly a family story. And it's also a story way beyond our family. It is about the people, and it's about the place, and it's about the people that visit. I mean, we have people that contributed that are families that have come here for holidays, had their daughter's wedding at Blackberry. You know, they've come back with their grandchildren. So we've had people like that contribute down to, you know, an incredible chef who is super well-known and is writing an experience they had that wasn't necessarily about being in the kitchen.

33:41It was about being at BlackBerry. And I think what has been so rewarding is to see our vision come to life because truly putting together a book when you're relying on contributors is a lot of work. And we've had a really, really amazing team led by Sarah Chabot, who's our marketing director. Actually, she has a fancier title than that, but I'm not really a title person. She's a very important person. She is our marketing boss. And all these contributors, we kind of said to them, we would love to hear, what would you tell us about BlackBerry? What does BlackBerry mean to you outside of your time on the stage at BlackBerry or unrelated to you playing for our audience?

34:33And so we've organized it into different chapters and different themes, like delicious, which is not surprising because we love the table at BlackBerry. And then we have a chapter called unexpected. And we've had a lot of interesting unexpected things, some tragic, some joyful. And it's really been super fun. Well, I can't wait to have a physical copy of it. They very kindly sent me a digital copy of it, and I was sort of flipping through it quickly in eager anticipation of our conversation. You were talking about the complexity of pulling it all together, and I can only imagine corralling all the contributors, pouring through those images, the super cute picture of you and Robert Plant, by the way.

35:28That's, I mean, worth the book right there. Wait, somehow I'm forgetting where that is in the book. I guess that's an unexpected event. It was unexpected to me, and I was delighted to see it. Well, that was unexpected for me when I had my tray of tequila shots, and I walked down the steps with this tray, and it was the after party for the musicians for this event we did. And first I ran into his agent. I mean, not his agent, but one of the agents that was there. And I said, would you like a tequila shot? And he said, of course, if you'll have one with me. And I was like, of course. So I take a shot.

36:11And then I turn around, and there's Robert Plant. And I said, would you like tequila? And he said, only if you'll have some too. And I was like, of course. And so then after that, I was like, okay, lesson learned. I am going to take one shot and I'm going to have a fake one next to that one that will be for my second shot. But two shots in two minutes is not exactly what I need to be doing. That's a fun story, and it's a great picture, and I was delighted to see that. And you've had so many incredible musicians perform there and come through the door. How did that all get started? How did you become a destination for all these musicians?

36:55That is a great question. So honestly, I can't remember exactly the very, very beginning, but I just remember that it was something that we had talked about. about, especially because we're so close to Nashville. So it seemed very realistic. And so we started with concerts, really, I think, at Yellowhammer, which is our little pavilion along the creek. And so we do these singer-songwriter nights, and it was super casual and so fun, but it was a small group. And then we would say, well, we should add music to this winter event, like in January. So of course that had to be inside. And then it just all kind of evolved from there.

37:42But we have had a wide range of musicians come and that's kind of back to the podcast and back to the book is you really never know. And so I love thinking of every time someone gets together, whether it's with one person, with 10 people, with 100 people at BlackBerry, is that that dinner or that lunch or that concert, it's a unique experience that you'll never recreate. I mean, Luke Bryan has been here so many times I've lost track, but every single time he came was different because when he first came, he was playing at Yellowhammer. Then we got really brave and we would do these outdoor concerts.

38:33This is before Bramble Hall. It was on the lawn at the barn and it was like 400 people out on the lawn and we just were super brave. We were like, I hope the rain holds. And so every time he came was different. And I think that's That's kind of a unique thing. We should think about being present and just enjoying what we're doing right then because that time is going to be fleeting. Well, and that seems to be part of what is at the heart of what you try and bring to BlackBerry is helping people to stop and savor this moment in time, which is often so challenging for us to do in all of our busy, hectic lives, right?

39:24Right. Yes. I mean, I think we're all pulled in so many directions. And, you know, there are things in my life that are complicated that other people don't have. And there are parts of my life that are pretty easy, that are hard for other people. First of all, I think everyone's going through something. I also feel like everyone's circumstances are so different and that we're all just pulled, whether it's social media or just the fact that we can be reached any minute. And it's like, wait, I haven't even conquered four things on my list today, and now I have 25 more. And so I just feel like this whole idea of how do we prioritize, how do we really be present in what we're doing.

40:19And I actually love chances like this to say, okay, this is what I'm doing for the next hour, and I'm going to enjoy talking to Dennis. And it's such a gift to be focused on one person and really, you know, connecting. And that is something I think we all need to be working on with the younger generation. And, you know, me for myself is how can I be more present and more engaging all the time and not get sucked into what my phone is? the latest message that someone's asking me something. I'm like, wait, you just interrupted my day. Eh. Well, I know that it's not necessarily a position that you want to put yourself in, but your story and your strength that you have shown in stepping up and running BlackBerry all these years in the way that you have is so inspiring.

41:22And I can only imagine putting this book together, thinking about not only the past, but also hoping for a future where your children want to be involved in the business. And you never know in life how that's all going to go. But I wonder how you did think about that as you're pulling together all of these images and hearing all these different stories. I mean, Sam's goal was always for Blackberry to be in our family forever. And I'm sure I said that when we talked a few years ago. And I totally agree. And that is, you know, his parents are still involved and especially his dad. And that is our goal is for Blackberry to be around, you know, for the next generation and their kids.

42:10And so I have five children that are generation three, and they range in ages from 13 to 28. And so there is no doubt that they are all really interested. To what degree, we're still figuring that out. Because I really feel strongly that they need to go spread their wings and go, you know, figure out who they are. figure out what drives them. And, you know, it's really, I think it's easy to feel the tug to what your parents do. I think, you know, we're not a medical family, but I feel like so many times if someone's parents are a doctor, they are like driven to be a doctor. And so I really, truly want my kids to want to do this because they truly love it and they're committed and not just because they love Blackberry.

43:10And because it's not ER surgery and we're not saving lives, but it's a commitment. It really is. And you have to really be ready to serve tequila shots till two in the morning and then get up and take your kids to school at 6.30. Just kidding. But really, it's an interesting lifestyle. and I would never trade anything for it, but I really want my kids to feel the tug for the right reasons. And I think that they do. I just can't disclose anything yet. Okay, okay. We'll save that for another conversation, Dennis. We have to save something for later. No, you're absolutely right. And that'll be the reason for our next conversation.

44:03But in the meantime, October 20th, The book is coming out, Blackberry 50. And from what I can see, Mary Celeste, it is a beautiful and remarkable book. So I'm really looking forward to it. And I'm thrilled that it gave us an opportunity to catch up and talk. Thank you so much for having me. And it's always a treat. And hopefully I'll see you next time I'm in New York.

44:31And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?

44:38Fred Nicolaus:Two things got my eye this week. One is the continuing battle for Ethan Allen. You know, we talked about this. We'll probably talk about it again. But Doug Bergeron, the activist investor, wants to take over the brand, filed his official proxy statement with the SEC. You know, and it details everything that happened up until this takeover bid. And, you know, there's not necessarily a ton of new information in it, but there's a little bit more meat on the bones. And some of this stuff, you know, it's just fun to read because it's really insider corporate-y drama. You know, there was this recounting of this meeting he had with Farouk Kothwari where Farouk invited him on his boat to have a meeting.

45:13Fred Nicolaus:And Doug was like, I wanted to push for a land-based meeting. It's like a little salty, but it's interesting to read if you're a huge nerd, which I am. So, you know, get that one out for a little evening. Always get your proxy statement out for some good reading. Yeah. It's fun. It's fun to read. Anyway, another thing is just that David Netto, a former podcast guest, has a collection with Sohn, another former podcast guest. Everybody's collaborating. But he does such good work for them. Sohn is such a great company. And so I'd love to see some new pieces in that line. And I'm sure they'll be showing up in a project near you.

45:47Fred Nicolaus:What can I try this week, Dennis? Yeah, and I'm looking forward to seeing Sohn close a big part of its Pimlico Road shop to do a big redesign. So I'm looking forward to seeing that. And no doubt David's Lights will be part of it. Speaking of collaborations, Mika Tenhov has a collection for Rejuvenation, former guest of the show and beloved stylist and designer in her own right. And it was just recently we were talking about Rejuvenation, one of the Williams-Sonoma brands that they're hoping to bring to the billion-dollar level. And perhaps Mika will help them with that. So I hope that that works out well for her.

46:24But congratulations to her on that. It looks like a lovely collection. I'm eager to see it in person. Speaking of seeing things in person, as soon as I wrap up here on the show, I'm going to make my way to Greenwich, Connecticut for the big opening of the Estates RH location where we're going to see all of the new Estates collection rolled out in what I think is probably an ideal market for that collection, Fred. I don't know what your thoughts are, but I think if you can't sell it in Greenwich, darn it, then I don't know where it's going to sell.

46:56Fred Nicolaus:Yeah, it should be exciting. Do some video content live from on the scene. Well, and tomorrow, sadly, come the RH earnings, so we'll have to wait until next week when we talk about them on the show. Probably for the entire show we'll be talking about the RH earnings. But interesting that we'll have some insights into a new location and perhaps see Gary Friedman tonight and see how he's feeling. See if he lets me know early anything about the earnings that he wants to tell me. I'm sure he's dying to fill you in on the numbers. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening.

47:29If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.