The Thursday Show: The industry reacts to tariff upheaval. Plus: James Huniford on 20 years of Design on a Dime

24:36I mean, that's one thing, the final message, just see what it can do. Sign up for ChatGPT. I think you can get it at the free tier because I think it's helpful to understand how it works, even if you're not actually going to use it. Just seeing what it's capable of is a good idea. Absolutely. Even if it makes you look heavier and older in the end. So don't be afraid of that. Moving on, we're going to talk about creative direction, Fred. For Women's Wear Daily this week, Sophia Celeste consulted top furniture and decor experts on how creative direction differs in home and fashion. And my starting question is, is there creative direction in home?

25:10It's much less common in home brands than it is in fashion brands. Much less common or much less celebrated, much less called out? I mean, what's your sense? Well, I've often wondered about this, and you and I have actually talked about this, maybe even when a microphone was on here and there about how it's sort of interesting how fashion you know companies have these mercurial you know people who have one name who lead the brand for a couple years and you know home brands typically do not have that person and why why is the discrepancy there you know i think there are some examples largely for like you know european companies they do have creative directors i know like pierre lasani is is one um but i don't know i mean i don't know that you know does West Elm have a creative director?

25:54If so, I don't know the name of that person. If they have these people, they're not putting them out front and center and trying to make them into a star the way that fashion brands do. And Sophia talked about some of the reasons why that might be. It was interesting. Actually, one of the takeaways from her piece was maybe the question is really more like, why do fashion brands have creative directors? Because they come in for two years, break everything. Someone else has to come and fix it. It can be very disruptive. It can be very hard to roll with these changes. And maybe we should be looking in the other direction.

26:25I don't know. Well, I mean, exactly. What was interesting, and I went into this article candidly thinking it was all about one thing. I thought it was going to be about the conversation that you and I so often have. That's, hey, why aren't more people better known in the furniture industry as being the creative directors? But this was really all about, well, here's the collaborative approach that the furniture industry talked about, that it isn't just about celebrating this one creative person, but that it's all about this process. And because this process can often take years, product development and the product to actually arrive, that the same person might not even still be in place in that position.

27:08So that's a great reason for you to not want to call out that specific person, but also is it about building a brand for the company or celebrating this individual? And I do think from a branding perspective, that's a really interesting dilemma. Yeah. I mean, there's just so many different ways to think about this. And I think that one of the other reasons is simply that the cadence of fashion is so much faster. Trends seem to come and go so quickly. I think home brands would feel a little bit stressed out by having someone who was trying to make changes quickly and dramatically. And, you know, for a million reasons, you know, the production process is more complicated, yada, yada.

27:48So I think the way that it is now makes a kind of sense. I will say this, though, like, we always talk about how, you know, you pull the average person off the street, ask them to name fashion brands, they go on for an hour, ask them to name home brands, they go on for 30 seconds. And I think part of that is because, you know, having this person at the head of the company draws, you know, people's attention to that person and makes them remember the brand. And so I would be really curious to see a major brand, especially a US brand, to really try it and to see them try and put somebody forward as, this is the creative genius behind our name.

28:19We're going to get them to do a bunch of interviews. We're going to get them in the media and see if it made a meaningful difference for their business. I know it's a little bit risky, but it's an experiment that I don't have to accept any of the consequences for, but I would love to see somebody try. Well, I mean, it's been fascinating to watch the transformation at Schumacher, for example, since Dara Caponegro came in and making a big announcement. Dara Caponegro is coming in, and she is going to touch every part of this business. And so we've seen collections introduced in a new way. We've seen a magazine introduced.

28:50We've seen it treated like a media company in a lot of ways. And everybody knows this is Dara's hand at work. So that, in my mind, is an example of that working in a big way. I think it can be a risk. What if that hadn't worked? What if everyone didn't like all the changes? So, I mean, it seems to have paid off in a big way there. I'm always interested with Kravit that has this huge stable of brands that used to be big leadership brands, Dongia and Brunswick. Sure. Dongia is a great example of that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, an Angelo Dongia was a figure that so many people looked up to and idolized and really respected.

29:38And it's hard when he's no longer there. It's hard when you don't know who the big creative force is behind Brunchwig. And that's the risk. Yeah, I can't imagine Kravitz going to turn to its new PE investors and say, here's our big idea, an enigmatic mercurial person to run everything. But you never know. I don't know. It's maybe just if the right person comes along. I hear AI Dennis Scully is looking for work. So maybe he can apply to some of these jobs. He's going to be big. Keep an eye on AI Dennis Scully. He's going to be very big. All right. That's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the latest new hires in the industry and BOH's guide to spring high point market.

30:21We'll be back in a minute. But first, a quick break.

30:27J. Poor Living's award-winning art and sustainability initiative, Manchaha, empowers rural Indian artisans to craft one-of-a-kind rugs from leftover yarn, reducing waste and celebrating true artisanry. Each vibrant rug tells a story inspired by history, culture, and environment, embodying creativity. Learn more about this collection and shop the one-of-a-kind pieces at jpourliving.com. For the newly expanded Chelsea House lighting line, designer Jamie Merida drew on decades of experience as a successful retailer and interior designer to create 80 new products that strike a perfect balance of elegance and functionality.

31:14See Jamie's brightest new ideas in the Chelsea House showroom at 200 North Hamilton Street, April 24th through the 30th. All available at designer-friendly prices with no minimums required.

31:31And we're back. I'm joined now by renowned interior designer, James Hunneford. And you tell me, is it the founding chair of Design on a Dime, Ford? Is that your title? Is that your lofty title? It is the founding chair of Design on a Dime. Well, I'm so glad to have you here. Thank you, Dennis. Thank you for having me. And thank you for your ongoing support for this incredible cause. Well, I'm really excited to talk to you about it. As you well know, this is one of my personal favorite events, and it has been for years. I was trying to think back to the very beginning of Design on a Dime, but before we even jump into the history and all of that, I want to tell people a little bit about you, Ford, your history, what you've done in the industry all these years.

32:24and then we can get to how this event began. So let's talk about you, shall we? Sure. Tell me how long you've been in the industry. I've been in the industry for about 30 years, maybe a little bit more. Okay. Yes, I started my own firm in 2008. At the same time, I had my first child on my own. So it was a busy year. So you've been in the design industry for a long time and somewhere along the way you decide that you want to give back to the community? You tell me. Yes. You know, I thought it was an important time. There were AIDS crisis was in full tilt. There were so many people affected in our industry, any creative industry by AIDS and HIV.

33:16And I thought it was time to see if I could help make a difference in other people's lives. Home has always been such an important part of my life and so many people's lives that I work for. And just in general, as the design community, feels the same way. And I thought trying to find a way to have the interior design world gather together to have an impact and create a difference and offer a second chance for housing and home and find that way to make that opportunity happen. And were you working with Housing Works at the time? Were you familiar with the organization? I was involved with Housing Works doing some volunteer work.

34:08And I was more interested in a grassroots organization that was downtown. It was not fashionable at the time to be raising money for AIDS and HIV. There were other organizations that were kind of already on their way. And I think that there was an opportunity with Housing Works to blend together what their mission is and interior designers and what our goals or missions are and try to find a way to bridge that together. And I had a meeting with Charles King, who's one of the founders of Housing Works. And I talked to him about this idea and he thought it would be a great idea. And so, you know, the first one was at the thrift store on 23rd Street with, I think, four designers.

35:09And it was basically, you know, a glorified garage sale, not even a tag sale. And so that was the original concept. And designers were were doing vignettes basically out of the thrift store, if I recall. Yes, yes. You know, there were four or five of us at East City Vignette, and that's kind of how it all started. And how did we get from there to the Metropolitan Pavilion and this big, almost like a design show house in this giant space, yes? Yeah, you know, it's taken years of, you know, the interior design world and interior designers embracing this idea, being supportive, not taking no for an answer.

36:00And there were, you know, some important people like Sharon Simon-Air and Calvin Sow and Charlotte Moss, who, you know, and Miles Redd were at the front line of the early stages of this that really, you know, got behind it. And how do you describe what design on a dime is to people that are not familiar with the event, to designers who want to learn more about it? How do you describe it? How do you tell people what it's all about? I describe Design on a Dime as a showcase for creativity, as a philanthropic opportunity to give back to the community and a sense of collaboration with interior designers that, you know, in a somewhat competitive world, you know, industry isn't isn't the case with this.

36:54It's not about who's going to get the best room. It's about whose creativity is going to like, you know, flush out in what way. Not like a show house where, you know, if you get the living room, you know, you've arrived. Whereas if you get a fourth floor like room and it's just a different sensibility. Whereas this is not that it's not about the most expensive piece of furniture that you can get. It's about the creative process. Well, and to that point, one of the things that's also very different from a traditional show house is that just about everything in the space is ultimately going to be for sale.

37:36And so you're also thinking about this room that you're putting together that you're ultimately going to sell off the night of the event. Yeah, I mean, I think that is great that so many designers go to their suppliers and their vendors and their craftsmen and their upholsters to get things donated for this cause. It's like pieces of a puzzle that they assemble. And a lot of times, I know from my own experience, it doesn't come together until before they're letting people in. And where is everything coming from? I know a lot of things are actually pulled from housing work, thrift stores, but then a lot of designers are just finding stuff and bringing them into their space.

38:20It's been amazing how the interior design industry has embraced this event and this organization. And I remember early on, you know, Robert Stillen had this incredible Andre Arbus sideboard in his vignette. And it was just like the showstopper and, you know, seeing Alessandra Branca doing a double vignette and kind of just packing it with all of her things. Or, you know, Stephen Gambrell, who's, you know, those iconic rooms. And one of his clients donated a bunch of things from one of the projects that he designed for him. And all of a sudden I was like, well, we need to make him front row center when you walk in.

39:02or Cliff Fong, you know, getting a pair of light fixtures that were in Diane Keaton's kitchen somewhere at one of our houses. You know, I think that's the fun part of this event, of the things that are donated. And, you know, I think people have fun and enjoy participating in this event because there's no kind of guardrails as far as what they can create or what they want to create. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, no guardrails is a great way to describe it. People really sort of put themselves out there and come up with fun themes for the rooms. And so many designers, you mentioned Miles Red and so many of his rooms stick out in my memory over the years of him just going over the top and really pouring himself into these spaces.

40:00You know, and I think the interesting thing about Miles is people now know that his double vignette is the go to and they line up. And it's just, you know, like 50 people deep to get in to just get, you know, something from that room and, you know, kind of grabbing for a price tag to be able to secure something is just unreal. Well, and we should explain again to people who haven't had the fun of going to the event that so the rooms are all put together. And if I remember, I mean, they only have a day or two to kind of piece everything together that they get into that space, right? Yes, they have about 36 hours from the time that it gets to the loading dock to get into the venue to get their walls painted, the wallpaper up, carpets installed, light fixtures hung, art on walls, furniture in place.

41:01And then if something doesn't work or doesn't fit, then you have to kind of reinvent the wheel all over again. Right. So a lot of times you thought it was going to fit, you thought it was going to work, and then you have to rework it all in the space of just a few hours. And then there's a big event and people get to come through and preview. And everything in the space has a price tag and everything is going to be sold the night of the big grand opening. Yes, on the Thursday night. And I've seen people line up around the block. from the Metropolitan Pavilion to 6th Avenue and wrap around and kind of just line up before the vignettes.

41:44They actually cut the ribbons to do that, and it's just like a mad rush. It's this crazy crowd, as you say, that lines up around the block in both directions with people waiting to get in. There's all sorts of layers of different tickets and when you might get access, And if you're lucky enough to get in a little bit ahead of time, you can run around and quickly see the spaces and start to put your list together of things that you want to buy. I have often, Ford, at events past, been stationed by different people who would say to me, Dennis, I need you to go and stand by that sofa in this vignette, right?

42:26So that we can make sure that we're the first people to actually get to buy it. And it hasn't always worked out. I'll tell you, there have been a lot of heartbreaks, a lot of disappointments. Some people shared some stories with me last night when I told them I was going to be speaking with you about, oh, the giant David Bowie print that they thought they were going to get and they didn't get it. There were a lot of people who had dreams shattered because somebody got their first. I've seen people try to rebuy things from somebody who was able to secure it. And then five minutes later, they're trying to like offer them twice as much money.

43:02Well, and interestingly, it sounds like over the years, some designers have been on the fence or you haven't been able to sell them on the idea. I mean, should we call some people out for it? Should we mention some people? I don't know. I mean. You know, I think there's always doubters. And it's interesting to see some of the doubters show up and kind of like see what it's all about. And then, you know, decide that they want to get on board. And then there's some people 20 years later who still won't get on board. And it's just the way it is. So is that right? So are there people that you've been asking for years and they're still they don't want to get involved?

43:46They don't want to return a phone call. Really? Really. So what is that about, do you think? Does it just seem like it's such a different kind of event for them than a traditional show house? Or what is it? You know, I think everybody has a different perspective and a different purpose. And I think that this has found its following and its, you know, a large group of designers who have embraced this. So I look at it that way in a good way rather than, you know, what it's not. Yeah, I was just curious because I mean, and I was speaking with Nick Olson just recently, right? Again, this is one of his absolute favorite events.

44:30And in part because I think and I think of he and Miles and others who just, it's a chance to throw your personality, your wit, your personal style into things. I think so many designers that I've spoken to have loved finding some great piece at some special price that they know they can sell and make good money for. I remember one designer was like telling me how he, you know, he had this whole list and I want to be sure that nothing's going to be too expensive and won't sell that night. And, you know, I have to be very conscious of it. But I mean, it just seems like it's this wonderful community event where everybody loves seeing each other's work and their creative finds.

45:16And everybody feels like they're getting to work on behalf of this wonderful cause, housing works. And also, it just it's a who's who event. I mean, the night of the event is one of the most packed scenes in New York City. I mean, it's like the old club scene back in the day when behind the velvet rope, you know, people waiting to get in. And you can't believe, and not even just the design scene, but there's often celebrities and all these other people that have showed up to either support or to shop, as you well know. I mean, I think people like to come to it. They like to support it because it's fun and it's for a good cause.

45:56And, you know, it is a sense of community. And I think it really, you know, speaks volumes about the interior design world and how when we all join together, what a difference and what an impact we can make. well and thinking about some of these designers who are on the fence about this and and i really want to try and get some of those people on board so so because i mean i just again i just think a it's a great cause b it's such a fun event um and also i just think so many designers have talked to me about just how it uses a different muscle it uses a different skill set you just approach this kind of a room differently than you would for Kipps Bay or for some other show house that you might be participating in.

46:43Yes? Absolutely. You know, I think that's what it's all about. And, you know, it's also interesting, a lot of the big brands, you know, who've gotten behind this, you know, from this year, you know, Cravet and Brunswick have become a major sponsor. And it's started with, you know, the people on their team have been longtime, you know, housing works and designer dime supporters. And I think they come up with this idea to do this whole like mini like flea market, you know, vignette story with five designers and kind of using all their kind of iconic Brunswick fabrics. And, you know, that's just going to be a huge moment.

47:23And Brunswick, you know, is such an iconic brand. And Benjamin Moore has been, you know, a longtime paint sponsor where there's other, you know, brands that have not been so supportive. And and I haven't really ever understood why. But, you know, hopefully in time, you know, they'll they'll get behind and support it because I think it is for a good cause. and it has a lot of impact for a photographer who's going to photograph 50 vignettes at a very discounted rate. But hopefully the goal is that other designers will want to hire them to photograph their projects and how meaningful that is. And the crossover from the financial world to the art world to design community to big brands and small brands.

48:17And, you know, sometimes, you know, the smaller boutique businesses who have been the most generous and then the slew of antique dealers that, you know, that that also has been, you know, amazing of the things that they have donated. And then this year you're doing some whole sort of pillow talk tie in. There's a whole bunch of designers who are making pillows and having a separate auction for that, if I understand. Yeah, you know, that's like one of the new elements of the event. And I'm very excited that Dara, she did not skip a beat without saying, yes, I would love to participate. And she would love to do that.

48:56And Schumacher and Frederick have gotten behind this idea to do kind of a freestanding event called Pillow Talk. and Dara asked 50 designers to each design a pillow and they've generously donated their time and their workroom's time and Schumacher has donated the fabrics and the trims and given them a blank slate to create whatever they want. And I think that is another element of maybe designers, it's a new point of entry to get involved with the event and just everybody's busy and that everybody's been able to make time to fit this into their schedules. And I've seen some of the pillows and they're just incredible.

49:41And, you know, Friday sometime there's going to be an unveiling because Housing Works has agreed to do a, you know, a window with the Schumacher and Frederick team two weeks before the actual event. Ah, fantastic. All right. You know, and I think that's how these kind of things get, they stay fresh and they become, you know, more interesting. Well, and I think, and that's a great point. And I think, as you were saying earlier, it's sometimes brands need help when it comes to thinking about big ideas or a way into an event. Because I know that you've tried to get some other people on board and they've stayed on the fence, unfortunately.

50:28But maybe this year we can coax some of them in. You know, that's what it seems like. And it's really thrilling to be able to see that it's getting that kind of traction. And, you know, the media also, not only you have been, you know, so supportive over the years on so many different levels, but, you know, the other publications too, from, you know, AD Pro to Elle Decor and Hearst to House Beautiful and, you know, First Gives. And there's just been such, you know, such love from the media community. And, you know, we're not advertisers. We're not taking out ads. And they're doing this because I think they believe in the event and they believe in the organization and they believe in the sense of community for the designers.

51:13Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. And I was trying to remember some of the really great rooms, and I was trying to think about designers that broke through somehow because of their participation in design on a dime. What stands out in your mind when you think back? You know, I think there's been, you know, so many. I think that, you know, Charlotte's rooms have always been, you know, interesting. I think that Miles, you know, Miles' rooms have always been incredible. And there's just so many over the years that I think have been impactful for, you know, on so many different levels of creativity. Yeah. I mean, as we were saying earlier, I think that many designers use this as a way often to redefine themselves or to surprise people about their space and do something that you wouldn't necessarily think, to your point, is Charlotte Moss or is some of these other designers and how they otherwise might present themselves.

52:19You know, I have a friend named Mike Mazzano, who's, you know, a very young designer who started his business recently, and he did a vignette last year. And he said it really helped, you know, get some traction for his career. And it was an ability for him to create a room, which, you know, a lot of young designers want that kind of platform. And it's, you know, something you can see in person, and they're there, and they can like mingle and meet people. And, you know, it's not like social media where you're dealing with air. It's in person and it's live and it's real. And there's no filter and there's no edit button.

52:55So, you know, I think that has a lot of value. Well, so tell me how you think about the designers that you ask to be involved. Tell me how you think about the selection process. Look, they're all creative. They're all talented. You know, this year we have 50 designers. Some are doing doubles. Some are doing triples. And I think that it's a balance of different people's sensibility, how they're all going to like stack up and, you know, who's going to be taking the risks and the chances and who's going to be putting in the effort. And, you know, I think that all the designers that I've seen over the years have really given it their all.

53:40And I think their teams and their staff, you know, they like to roll up their sleeves and dig into it and, you know, come up with ideas that are inspiring and unique. And, you know, that they're on board with it. Nobody's just calling it in. yeah no no i mean i i was i was at the kips bay president's dinner the other night and and one of the design on a dime designers was showing me all of her inspiration and and her and her mood board for for her room uh and and she was so excited about it she's like i found this i found this i think this is gonna work and uh i mean whoever thought that you know designers are making mood boards for this event.

54:24Well, exactly. I mean, and I think, again, I think so many designers just love the challenge of, there's a scrappy element to it in a way. There's a different, there's almost like a merchant sensibility that you bring to your design on a dime room. You know, I think that that says a lot about the scrappiness is, you know, I, for myself, I moved to New York with, you know, a suitcase and, you know, you know, a lot of dreams. And I think that New York gives creative people an opportunity and a platform. And hopefully this is a way for all of us, you know, who moved here for that dream, you know, a sensibility to be able to give it back.

55:08And, you know, I was at a theater fundraiser last night for Miscast for the MCC. And, you know, there was just such parallels for the design community and the theater world of how they were all, you know, gathering together to make a cause to create a difference for other people in, you know, for an important cause. Well, so tell me what happens for the charity as a result of this event. You know, the charity is about, there's an educational program for people who need to get back into the job training program. There's an educational program. There are housing facilities. There are medical programs.

55:56And there's a lot of different, you know, elements of housing works that impact people and give them a second chance. And I think for me, it's always about, you know, how do we how do we create another opportunity for someone else? Yeah. I mean, it seems like so much of of what the charity has become about is the combination of of housing. And as you say, support and reentry and education and anything that somebody who is struggling with this would need. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that there's huge opportunities ahead, hopefully, for more companies to get behind this. And, you know, Jim Druckmann has been a longtime supporter of Design on a Dime and Housing Works.

56:46And, you know, he's been extremely generous, you know, along with, you know, a lot of our honorees, you know, from Bob Chavez, who was the founder, you know, the chairman of Hermes to, you know, Andy Cohen to, you know, so many designers. and even Darren Walker from the Ford Foundation. We honored him and so many groundbreakers that have been not hesitant about saying yes. It sounds like you're hoping some more corporate sponsors are going to come in once they see everything that's going on this year, yes? I mean, that's absolutely the goal because I think without them, it's just harder and harder.

57:32are interested in today's world in the economy. And, you know, I think they all need to make an effort. You know, the design community is extremely generous and very supportive of a lot of brands. And I think the brands, you know, kind of could give back. Well, so let's tell people when the event, because there's a little preview, right? And then the event. So let's tell people exactly when it is. Well, there's an honoree's dinner on the 23rd. Okay. And then the shopping event starts on the 24th. There is usually an hour preview. And then it's that evening of Thursday. And then it's all day Friday and all day on Saturday.

58:15It is a tremendous event. So I hope that a lot of people will turn out for it. Buy those tickets. Line up around the block so that they can come and participate in it. Because you're going to see some of your favorite designers really outdo themselves in terms of creativity and energy. And you get to buy everything that's in the room. So who doesn't want to participate in that? Thank you, Dennis. I'm so grateful to you. And it really is like a homecoming for the design community. It's kind of how I would sum it up. Well, exactly. I mean, it really is a big community event. And so I'm really looking forward to it.

58:53And I thank you again for making the time to talk to me. Thank you. Thank you so much.

59:01And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? Well, I'm down here in Dallas for the Design Social event, as we mentioned. And there's lots of great lines, great people showing cool product here at the event. We'll not be able to name all of them, unfortunately. But I had a lot of great conversations this morning. And I wanted just to shout out a few people. There's this woman who does this great textile company called Face, F-A-Y-C-E.

59:29these really beautiful textural wallpapers and fabrics. This company called Textiles by Smith, really beautiful floral textiles and wallpaper. And also this company called Sorella Glen that does these really chic little lampshades, definitely made me want one. So it's fun just to be here at the event and see the stuff up close and personal as opposed to seeing it on my Instagram feed as I normally take a new product. But also just sort of on a sadder note, I don't know if you saw on Instagram the note that Sarah of Minna was going to be sort of pausing or shutting down operations. Minna is a great company that does these textiles and home products made by artisans, largely in Latin America.

1:00:07And she just announced that, you know, it just hadn't been fun recently and business had been rough. So she was closing the brand, which is really too bad. Really liked Minna, really liked Sarah. I'm sure she'll be back in some form, but it was just sad to see that. I don't know if you saw it. I did see that. And I was very sad to see that news. I know she's given it a great deal of thought and she's faced a variety of different challenges. But I hope that we do see her come back in some other incarnation because she has a lot to share with the world. So I'm a big fan and I wish her the best. Same.

1:00:43What caught your eye this week? I got to go to a really special event this past Friday at the British residence over at UN Plaza and be presented with the Highgrove collection that Sanderson has just come out with. And it's based on King Charles's private garden at Highgrove. And Sanderson was given access to the gardens and created this whole collection based on some of the king's favorite flowers and plants. and his favorite dog is actually in the fabric collection as well. And, you know, apropos of the conversation about creative directors, Sanderson has a remarkable creative director, Claire Vallis, who has been there for, I'll say, more than 25 years, so not even later, but been there such a long time.

1:01:39And I think that that's the power when you have a creative director that stays for a long time and can really develop the look and feel of the company and the image. This is a really striking collection, and it was extraordinary to get to see it in the setting that they created for us. And I really, a portion of it is going to the King's Foundation, so it will benefit the King's many charitable interests, but it was really special to get to see. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com.

1:02:24If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.