The Thursday Show: What happened at High Point? Plus: Why Williams-Sonoma is suing Dupe.com

24:19Here comes a site being like, let's cut through that, give you the real price. It is a very powerful, if not entirely truthful marketing message. And I think the broader cultural thing that this guy is tapping into is there, whether William Sonoma sues or not. I agree. And that's one of the things when we spoke about this in the past, that was so challenging to really figure out where to come down in terms of the overall messaging, because you, as you point out, you can understand this company wanting to say, hey, look, I'm offering you a less expensive alternative here. Isn't this great? Look at my powerful tool and what it can do.

24:57When we first talked about it, we talked about a lot of the artisans and a lot of the original creators of some of these pieces that were just getting knocked off and have every reason to feel angry, uncomfortable about this tool. As you say, a lot of these similar type tools are already out there. We know that. But this was a machine built for the sole purpose of just finding you some knockoff or some replica of a piece that somebody might have spent quite a bit of time and money making and doesn't want knocked off. And I think another element of this that Sonoma points out in the lawsuit, but other people certainly have pointed out accurately as well, is that a lot of the furniture that, you know, dupe.com is linking to is what you might call fast furniture.

25:40You know, it's like factory direct product that's not going to last that long. And so, you know, while it's great to go for a lower price, what you end up doing, is sending furniture to the landfill, encouraging manufacturers to cut corners and get ever cheaper products at the expense of materials and labor. And I do think that that contributes to some negative effects in the furniture industry. At the same time, I think it's hard to fight reality. And the reality is that a lot of people out there want cheaper prices on furniture and they don't care as much about authenticity as everyone listening to this show.

26:14So we are in a difficult moment. And I think this lawsuit paints a picture of that. I completely agree. And look how we're going to transition to talking about inexpensive furniture, Fred. Because next up, we're going to talk about Amazon's$20 sofa. Earlier this year, news broke that Amazon is planning a new discount e-commerce site, offering items directly from China. New reports reveal that the site will include price caps on select products, including just$20 for sofas. And Fred, nothing says comfort to me like$20 for a sofa. Am I right? That sounds like a great sofa. That's my Halloween costume is an Amazon$20 sofa.

26:56It's scarier to anyone in the furniture industry than the ghouls and goblins. Yeah, I mean, I think sort of the context here is a bigger story that we've talked about a little bit, which is simply that many companies, the most notable ones are Shein and Timu, have figured out a way to basically plug Chinese factories directly into American e-commerce. So there's no importer, there's no brand in between them. It's simply a big, giant e-commerce algorithm that connects a factory to a consumer directly. And these sites are able to offer stuff at ridiculously low prices. There are already very cheap sofas on Timu.

27:32$23 was, I think, the lowest one that this writer who wrote this article was able to find. So this already exists. It's just a question of now Amazon is seeing competition from these kinds of sites. They want to get in on it. And this list of prices, price caps that they discussed with some of their manufacturers leaked into the press. And now we have these ridiculous numbers like a$20 sofa. I just looked at that number. I was like, what are we talking about? I mean, what does that even mean? What is a$20 sofa? Well, exactly. And I mean, and what is a$20 sofa? And what could it possibly be? I mean, what could the construction, what could the materials, I mean, never mind being able to get inexpensive labor, just what are the components?

28:15And is this the direction that we want to go in? Is Amazon saying, okay, fine, we'll play that game too, and here you go? I mean. It's funny to kind of laugh at it, but it's hard to escape the conclusion that this is going to involve labor by people who are being coerced into working. We've maybe not talked about it this much, but there's a whole population in China, the Uyghur Muslims, who are sort of coerced into labor. And Uyghur picked cotton is a very controversial subject in the industry. You're technically not allowed to sell in the U.S., but people, you know, get around it in various ways.

28:49So certainly there's, you know, very questionable, if not downright evil labor practices involved in offering something this cheap. Certainly it goes without saying that this is not a sustainable piece. one of the writers who wrote an article about this that is going right to the landfill. I mean, how long is a$20 sofa going to last? So I don't know. I view this as almost just like the absurd apotheosis of, I don't know. I don't know what it's the apotheosis of, but it's depressing. Well, it is. And I mean, again, tying it back to the earlier conversation, this says, sure, you can find this incredibly low price point, but does that mean that you want to support that.

29:29And that's, I guess, part of the big question is, are people really going to get behind this or are people going to stand up and say, this just feels wrong on a host of levels? The labor issue is one part of it, but the environmental issues around all of this, all of it. Yeah. I mean, I actually am somewhat hopeful that like a$20 price tag for a sofa will turn people off. I mean, you know, I think we can talk about the upper limits of pricing and how people are very price sensitive. But I think that it can go the other way too. I mean, that number is just absurdly low. I could not imagine many people going like, that's going to be a good value for, I mean, I don't know.

30:10Maybe there are some people who are just, that's what they have and that's what's in their budget. Or this is for a guest room or something. But you must hate your guests if you buy them a$20 sofa to sit in. I'm hopeful that this will be rejected by consumers, But I don't know. You know, it's hard to know how low we can go here. Well, that's the thing. I raced to the bottom and I hate where that's going. So I'm hoping that the two of us talking about it will just put the kibosh on the whole thing and call it out. And people just won't want to go there. I'm not only hopeful. I'm certain that will happen.

30:45I'm certain Jeff Bezos right now. Oh, the Thursday show doesn't like this? Never mind. Exactly. Yeah. All right. That's it for the news. but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including the latest showroom openings and a look at the chaos at Bed Bath & Beyond. We'll be right back, but first, a quick break.

31:09We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Claffs, the world leader in sauna luxury. Since 1928, Claffs has designed and built every sauna with meticulous attention to detail. From the moment you step into a CLAS sauna, you'll feel the CLAS difference. The weight of the door, the scent of the wood, the shape of the bench. All designed with distinction. CLAS, a century of superior heat. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit clasusa.com. That's K-L-A-F-S-U-S-A dot com.

32:32And we're back. The moment we've all been waiting for. The High Point Recap is finally here. To help me recap the High Point Market, I'm joined by Editor-in-Chief Caitlin Peterson. Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Dennis. And our executive editor, Fred Nicholaus. Hi, Fred. I'm back. This is so fun. I've been looking forward to this. It was great to spend time with all of you at High Point. Fun to see you all. I wanted to kick it off, Caitlin, with a little bit of a vibe check. If you had to put it into one word, Caitlin, what would it be? What would the one word be to describe the vibe at High Point? Oh, man, I'm going first.

33:13I'm going to say wider, which sounds funny on its face. But I think really interestingly, one thing I felt was how much brands in other categories, maybe not traditional to high point market, want to be in the mix, just so clearly want to show up and connect, I think primarily with designers. The most obvious representation of that is going to be NKBA, the National Kitchen and Bath Association. They had a big pop-up on Fred Alexander Place. Cambria also was showing and suites. And I thought kind of together, I don't think you ever came to high point and were like, oh, I'm going to do all my kitchen sourcing here.

33:47And I think this was a really interesting, again, widening of what you might want to come to marketplace for. Other brands, there were paint brands showing up, an enthusiasm for independent makers and handcraft that's new. And I think that in general, we're starting to see a movement towards more things than just furniture shipped by the container load. And that's a departure for a high point market that's really going to be something to watch. Interesting. Okay. So a lot of different things to point to. Fred, what was your vibe? What was your sense of it? Well, I think widening definitely refers to my waistline after walking market and eating a piece of candy at literally every booth I stopped at.

34:26My word is hope. And I mean that in both the optimistic and pessimistic senses of the word. I think everyone I talked to was basically like, look, our business has not really radically rebounded the way we hoped it would. But we see the light at the end of the tunnel. We think things are going to get better. We hope things are going to get better. But I wanted to add that certainly that was mostly hope. Very few people were talking about we're up 20 percent over last year. We're, you know, we're selling them by the truckload. In general, there was sort of an anticipatory optimism that was sometime in the future, not today.

35:01Dennis, what was your vibe for the market? Yeah, I agree. I think with all of the conversations that we had had about people trying to lower the expectations for market, I think satisfactory is the word. I think this market was very satisfactory. We all knew that people weren't showing huge new collections for the most part. And we all knew that people weren't feeling wildly enthusiastic about the economy and didn't want to make a big investment in this market. So I think they put on a good show. We all felt warm and welcomed and so satisfactory. I think the election is sort of a piece of that, too.

35:43And maybe I don't know if now is the right time to talk about that. Sure. Jump right into politics, Caitlin. Lynn, there's never a problem doing that, right? Yeah. Well, no, but I mean, I think, you know, you talk about people coming in with pretty grim expectations for this market. You know, it's an election cycle market. The election is pretty wild. Market was late this year, so it's closer to the election than maybe ever before. I think you're right that a lot of people came in kind of expecting almost nothing, especially on the vendor side. And maybe we're pleasantly surprised because they started out with a real low bar.

36:17No, no, no, exactly. Which is why I think it was so smart that everyone lowered the expectations as much as they did. Because I feel many people were able to step over those lowered expectations and that felt good. So, I mean, in terms of the actual attendance numbers, I know we don't have precise numbers, but we did get some indication comparisons to previous markets. What do we know, Caitlin? I mean, the High Point Market Authority has their board meeting on the Wednesday morning of market. And what they reported there was that registrations were down, I believe, 2 % from spring 2024. Spring 2024 itself was down about 2 % from the fall before that.

37:01You know, pretty minimal, but small decline from markets past. What will take a lot longer to figure out is who actually showed up and how they showed up. All those scans, every time you get in a building, get on a bus, get deduplicated, it takes about a month. But in about a month, we'll know who actually showed up and where they came from. On the registration side, we know that international attendance was a little bit lighter this market than previous markets, but large retailer attendance was up, about 3%, but still up. I will say that the vendors in showrooms seemed happy with the traffic they got, especially on the weekends.

37:41So whatever those registration numbers say, the people actually walking indoors, again, maybe that was low expectations, but that seemed to be, I heard some vendors talking about setting some attendance records for post-COVID markets of Saturday and Sunday traffic. That feels like a win to me when you're talking about attendance. Fred, anything do you want to add there? Well, all the business of home events were attended very well. I will say we all we sold out all of all of our panels and things. Yeah, I mean, I'll say like I'm not as much of a market veteran as you two. So I wouldn't say that I'm a totally an expert on this.

38:13It did feel a little bit slow. And a lot of people told me that it felt a little soft in terms of attendance, a little quiet. But I do think the vibe was overall good. People were happy to be there. High Point is a very like up market. So yeah, a little bit slow, but didn't didn't dampen the spirits of most people that I talk to. I wonder, Fred, in conversations that you might have had with designers that you spoke with, how were people feeling about their business? How were they feeling about the health and strength of their pipeline and everything going on? Yeah, well, it's difficult talking to interior designers.

38:46I mean, I think with like, for example, like if you want to know how the home renovation business is going, you just look at Home Depot and low stock price and you basically have a sense of it. Whereas interior design is just so fragmented that one designer could be having their best year ever, whereas another one could be really scrambling to fill the pipeline. So sometimes it's difficult to really get your finger on the pulse. A couple of things. One is that people who were a little bit earlier in their career were talking about how it was a little bit difficult to get new leads. I do think a lot of that has dried up in sort of the post-COVID boom crash.

39:17I also think some markets were a little bit better than others. A number of people told me that Dallas is really booming right now. Nashville is kind of popping off, whereas parts of California are a little bit slow. Austin is very slow, some people said. So I think in general, designers are still doing well, and that's kind of the consensus. But it's not as much of a blanket, yeah, designers are doing great like it was in 2021 or 2020. There's definitely like a little bit of a more uneven picture. You know, I very much agree, Fred. I got the sense that it was very regionally specific. And I think that we were sort of talking in broad terms in previous markets.

39:55And I think this time around, we definitely heard there were some soft spots. How much of that is driven by, as Caitlin was referring to earlier, some of the hesitation around the election or just the distraction of that? I think that was certainly weighing on people's minds. And a lot of people referred to the fact that their clients were just distracted and not pulling the trigger on some things. So it was hard to get a sense of whether that was business that's just waiting in the wings for some greater clarity or if it's a meaningful slowdown in some markets. And again, I think a lot of it, too, depended on how high end the particular designer was.

40:36I definitely felt much more of a high-low story in having some conversations with people. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. I mean, what I'm curious about, Caitlin, is going around. So you had so many appointments doing walkthroughs. And if people shared with you their perceptions of how things were going for some of the manufacturers and some of the brands that you saw. I think there was a lot of the same cautious optimism that y 'all have been talking about on the Thursday show for the last year or so. They're watching the economy. They're watching the election. I think weirdly kind of in the same way that they had sort of this grim outlook for market.

41:12I think they have sort of a grim outlook through the end of the year, but kind of a cautious hope, I think, that people are going to start buying. Yeah. No, I reached out to the stumps to get a sense of what they were going to be writing up for their recap, the mergers and acquisitions and advisor partners to the industry. And I think they echo a lot of the same sentiments that we've been sharing. I mean, they definitely talked about the fact that it wasn't quite as sunny inside as it was outside for much of market. But they did get the sense that people were feeling, as we've been suggesting on the show and as Warren has been writing about in some of his columns as well, that perhaps we're feeling like we've seen the worst of it.

42:00Tim Stump definitely felt that there were some green shoots on the higher end of things. So I think that that story aligns well with everything that we have been talking about and writing about here. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I think like for the past couple of years, it's been a little bit like a movie with a lot of twists and turns and you're kind of sticking your seat going like, okay, the movie's almost over. Are there a couple more twists coming or are we almost going to get out and step into the sunshine? And I think everyone is sort of sitting there a little bit nervously going like, how many more twists we got before we can start going up?

42:35And I think the ultimate twist as we've talked about is the election. You know, I think it most people said it played more of a role than they thought it would and sort of tamping down their business. I also think there was a lot of gallows humor about the election. You know, like in North Carolina, High Point in particular, it's a little bit of a politics free zone. People don't like to say, oh, I'm supporting this person or that person. But everybody agreed, like, I hope whatever happens, it's a landslide so we can all move on. Several people told me, like, well, we can get through a couple of days of riots and then bounce back.

43:04It was it was very kind of wild. I know, I know, I know. But it's like, it's the calculation, the business calculations that, frankly, people have to make and are making. So I think that's the big unknown is how crazy are the next couple, you know, weeks, months going to be. And everyone is very much knocking on wood. That'll be clear, whatever happens. The other kind of business angle of the elections that people were talking about, at least to me, is that if Trump wins, he has promised to increase tariffs, especially on China. And as we all know, a lot of furniture comes in China. So anyone who heavily imports furniture has to make a decision.

43:38Do we think these tariffs are actually going to happen? Do we buy up a lot of inventory in advance? Do we wait and hope for the best? That was generating a lot of uncertainty. And I feel like different people had different strategies for how to deal with it. Caitlin, did you talk to people about that? What was your sense? I had a lot of conversations about that in the lighting category. I would add, yes, a lot of people are importing furniture from China, but also all of the components of the lighting that we purchase here come from China. And so when you look at what that means for anybody manufacturing lighting, that's really significant.

44:13And I don't know that there's not really a way to prepare for a significant percentage of all of your pieces will suddenly cost a lot more for you to import. I think it's maybe a little bit harder to get ahead of that if it's going to happen in the lighting category. But that was certainly top of mind for everyone I talked to in that space. China definitely came up as the big wild card, I think, in all of this. And it's hard to tell how serious people are when they say there's going to be 1 ,000 % tariffs on things coming out of China. But it definitely had people on edge. And there were an awful lot of people, as we know, at High Point, that rely on China for a great deal.

44:52Caitlin, let's talk about some of the things that were new and different at market, because there were quite a few to point to. I mean, I think the thing on everyone's lips, if there weren't flashy product debuts this market, there was a new building. A whole new building. 313 Space opened. It was opened up. It was really spearheaded by Rudy and Dominique, the co-founders of Schwung. They took a Hoosiery manufacturing site and turned it into a really interesting showroom. Schwung is kind of the anchor tenant on the first floor. But when you go upstairs, there was a really interesting mix of bigger brands, you know, kind of taking up some real estate there, as well as a lot of kind of boutique and independent makers in spaces where they could really creatively showcase their work.

45:43And I think, you know, especially when we talk about capturing sort of designer attention at market, that embrace of handcraft, that embrace of, you know, working with the artist or the artisan is certainly captivating and exciting and feels new. and I think that really energized a lot of folks who went to visit. It's a really interesting building. What did the two of you think though? I know you were both stopped by. Yeah, absolutely. Fred, what was your take? I was going to say, I think it's now a battle between 313 Space and Shop Object to be kind of like the hipster place at High Point, but it definitely had kind of like a New York-y feel, a little bit like it was a reclaimed Soho loft.

46:19I think actually, Caitlin, you and I before Market were a little bit like, I don't know, skeptical is maybe the wrong word, but suspicious, like, oh, what's this really all about? Yeah, exactly. And it's funny because walking over there, it's a little bit at the edge of like the central market hub. And as we all know, like one block in high point land equals like 10 miles in normal circumstances. And I felt like I was sort of crawling through the desert to get out there. But once I was there, it was a beautiful oasis. They have a beautiful garden area. It feels very fresh and light filled in there.

46:49Does not feel like a conference center. Does not feel jammed and crammed like AHFC definitely does sometimes. So it's a very pleasant place to be. And I think there was a cool mix of brands, some interesting people there. Interestingly, actually, one of my favorite little moments was the Parsons Healthy Materials Lab. We've spoken to John Sara Ruth, the founder of that organization on the podcast. They had a pop up at the 313 space and it was really cool. It was just I briefly spoke to John Sara and, you know, I think it's a perennial sort of frustration that why can't brands embrace sustainable manufacturing?

47:22The materials are ready. The science is ready. but she was very optimistic when I talked to her. She was saying, I'm having real conversations with manufacturers. There's some scale developing here. Like she had just gotten out of a conversation with a guy who makes furniture for Restoration Hardware or RH rather. So she was really excited about it. What if they do this? And so, I don't know. I thought that was like a really nice little optimistic moment at 313 Space. So I was a huge fan. Dennis, what about you? I agree. I also had a fun conversation with John Sauer Ruth and she was so excited about the paint that was on the wall.

47:52That's going to be much healthier. And there were material substitutes for even the quartz countertops could be had. So, I mean, there were a lot of things that she could point to. And she was excited to show them off. And right next door was a wonderful lighting company that had made all the lighting out of recycled plastic bottles and had a really impressive display. So there was a wonderful environmental feel up on the second floor. And I thought it had a nice energy. That building definitely felt like, as you were saying, Fred, the hipster, the cool kid. I think your cool quotient went up when you stepped inside and had a nice wine bar also downstairs, which was very welcome.

48:40So yeah, I was, again, delightfully surprised by the new building introduction. When you get pitched a new building, yeah, how excited can you get? But then you went there and you discovered there was actually quite a lot going on. So that was impressive. You referenced earlier the National Kitchen and Bath Association activation that was there. What was your sense of that? And can you see that becoming a regular presence at High Point? I think it was a really interesting activation. It's in the right spot, you know, right where they're going to get a lot of designer traffic. I think they had really smart, compelling programming that looked really well attended.

49:16I think to truly find success, that tent looks expensive. So I don't know that they would like this assessment of mine, but I think they'll have to do it again and again. I think that if you do that once as sort of a flash in the pan, you probably aren't going to get the traction that you need to truly make kitchen and bath part of the conversation at High Point Market. I think if that tent is there again in the spring or if it's there every fall, I think that could start to be a really important conversation topic or, you know, really important part of the conversation. I think it's absolutely an activation they could build on.

49:52I think it's a start, hopefully, for them and not a one-off, you know, if they want to really cement their presence in town. Yeah, and I definitely got the sense, and I chatted with Bill Darcy from the NKBA for a little bit, and I mean, I definitely got the sense that they wanted to dip their toe in, sort of get a response. I think there's a lot more that they could do the next time out if they walked away feeling like this was worthwhile and could tell that story. It certainly makes sense. I imagine that there's a pretty good crossover with those two shows in terms of audience and attendance.

50:32So, but I think to your point, whoever is just going to come and show up at high point, they are going to need to be consistent and do it again and again, which brings me to Shop Object, which appeared again. And do you feel like that's getting traction? I heard designers say they were going. So I think in that sense, yes. I will also say that I think I heard a lot of people still struggling to figure out how to get there. If you don't have a lot of experience with that Market Square building, it's kind of weird. I think their signage was better, but I don't think they totally stuck the landing on getting you across the walkway and over to ShopObject from a signage and wayfinding perspective.

51:13I think that's actually really hard. So I give them credit for the improvements they're making. But I do think it's going to take either more time or more marketing to get people over to that space. It's also a really interesting challenge if you think about who needs to go see vendors there. If you live in the New York area and you come to ShopObject already, you're going to meet people you already know, and it may not feel as essential to you. But I do think for the design community I talked to kind of outside of the New York metro area, that was a much more compelling piece of market for them.

51:46I hope they stick around. I hope they keep doing it. I hope it continues to grow. I think it's a really promising destination at market. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because 313 space has the disadvantage of having that distance. Shop object is like more centrally located, but it's in the middle of what I would charitably call a labyrinth. It's difficult to get to and it's hard to find. It depends on kind of your expectations. I mean, like Caitlin, I heard designers saying, oh, I loved it. I went and picked up a few alpaca throws. It was really cute. So that was good to hear. I talked to a few vendors there.

52:17There was one very sweet maker who said he didn't have a lot of commercial expectations, but made a lot of great connections. He was a local guy named Mike Newins. And I think he really enjoyed being there and it was the right company. So that was cool. There were a couple other people who were saying like, look, we're just not making the sales we need to make here. They're having kind of the same expectations that you'd have a chop object in New York where you open the convention center door, people rush and take everything you've got then leave. That was not happening for them. I did see a couple of buyers from Wayfair walking through.

52:47So I don't think there was a complete dearth of business activity, but it was a little slow. And I think there's going to be some skepticism around it. I hope they stick it out. I'm a huge fan of ShopObject. My taste does lean towards the hipster. So I will, for one, make it through the confusing labyrinth next time I go to market. But I do think it's a challenge for them for sure to overcome. I think for all of these independent and boutique brands, Fred, you make a really good point about, you know, one, ShopObject in New York is sort of like a feeding frenzy the second they open the doors. High Point Market is a week long, basically, and it's not the same experience.

53:20It's also a way bigger lift for all of these small, independent brands. If you are exhibiting twice a year at ShopObject or even 313 Space, you're coming early to set up. You're staffing your space for the entire week because people start showing up on Wednesday or Thursday, even though market opens on Saturday. day, you have to be there. You have to break down. And all of a sudden, you're spending almost a month of the year renting a house in High Point Market. And I think for these smaller brands, you know, is one twelfth of your time when you could be building your brand in other ways. You know, that's much harder math than it is for a much more established furniture company.

54:00And I think that's going to be something, you know, kind of with this passion for the handmade and the one of a kinds, I think that's going to be kind of a unique challenge for these brands. making a lasting impact at High Point Market. I think High Point Market authorities should invest in these people, frankly, just because I think they keep the market fresh and they give people a reason to come outside of cycles in their business. And I think most people at this point recognize that a lot of buying can be done outside of market. And so there has to be a reason for people to come. And I think discovering new brands is really one of them.

54:31So I think there's every incentive for the market itself to try and find ways to highlight these people because I think they make it vibier, they make it buzzier, and they turn it into a more experiential, intimate show, which I think is going to be the real value proposition for High Point going forward. At least that's my hipster opinion. I'm sure other people feel differently. No, no. I completely agree. I think, I mean, again, to Caitlin's point about being wider, I think for the High Point Market Authority, I think wider is the strategy to go for. I think High Point Market Authority has the strength of the numbers, even if it's up or down a couple of percentage points each market, who cares?

55:12You're delivering a huge number of people that are coming to this market. And so whether it's the NKBA, whether it's ShopObject or getting some of these small vendors, I think finding lots of different ways to have the market be interesting and you can go off in so many different directions. You can find so many things. We haven't even touched on antiques, which is a big reason why a certain cadre of designers come. They come for the antiques. They come for the incredible shopping there. So, I mean, I think High Point is smart to have this really broad mix. And I think more and more, as you were just saying, Fred, people need a reason to come twice a year.

55:55People need a reason to keep coming to a big trade show. And I think that is only going to continue to become competitive for people's attention. I wonder, I didn't feel like there was a lot of big technology stories at Highpoint, but I do feel like Kravit was trying to show us some high tech, some Vision Pro-like action. What did you make of that, Caitlin? I've got a great video, a great seven-minute video of Fred testing out those goggles. close um some call it a video some call it blackmail i mean that was as close as i got to that technology i think fred should probably speak to his experience uh adding some adding some creative flavor a chair and a side table to the kravitz showroom even if it was only virtual it was actually pretty amazing to watch um and to see even at this phase what's possible and I think it left me thinking much more clearly that some of these technologies can be an answer for the client who just can't see it down the road.

57:04Maybe it's not quite ready yet, but I think Kravitz is going to be ready for it when the rest of us catch up and are ready to engage in that way. What was it like though with the goggles on, Fred? Yeah, well, Kravitz had a thing that they had done with this company called NTRO that does 3D visualization technology And it was a program they had done for the Apple Vision Pro. That's Apple's crazy expensive$3 ,000 headset. It's, you know, I think many people have tried on these AR VR headsets. And I think, you know, the knock on them is that they're heavy and they look goofy. That's certainly true of this one.

57:35But this one is amazingly good. Like when you put it on, you can really see the room around you very clearly. You don't feel as isolated as you do with some of the other ones. And the technology is basically that you can like place, as you were saying, like a stool, and autumn in a bed in the room, like you can place virtual furniture in the room, you know, upholster it in virtual Kravitz fabric and look at it from all angles. You know, that sounds sort of simple and so what, but it's pretty incredible when you're actually in the room. I know there's been a lot of like skepticism around this technology.

58:04Apple's pulled back on their plans for the Apple Vision Pro. I'm personally a huge fan and I think interior design is the perfect place to implement it. I don't see people walking around all day with this thing on their head. But again, as you were saying, the client who just can't see it well with this, you really can see it. You were literally like on the ground, like leaning in to look at this chair you had, you know, air quotes placed in the showroom, you know, and you could and on the screen, you know, we could see what you were saying. And you could see the texture of the textile on the chair.

58:34I mean, it was you looked funny, but it was pretty amazing to see what that experience. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah, no, it's it's very cool. And I looked very cool doing it. But I think it's really impressive. And I hope I hope more people do it on the technology note, Dennis, you're absolutely right. It was funny, like in that kind of plaza between IHFC and Showplace, there was this little booth this woman was working with for a company called like Podium AI. And it was like AI shopping assistant or something. And she was like, free wine, free wine, free beer. No one was stopping at the AI booth.

59:05It's still an old school industry. And I think, you know, I think that makes me love it all the more. I do think we saw some interesting advancements in LED technology, which is not a super sexy thing to talk about. But there's a lot of lighting at high point market. And more and more and more of that is LED. And I think more companies are sort of pushing the boundaries of what we think LED can be, are trying to get us comfortable with a light fixture where you don't have to change the light bulbs. I think people look at LED and maybe they're a little afraid of it. They don't totally understand it.

59:38Some of these fixtures are weird by conventional standards. They're pretty innovative. And I think we saw a real leap forward with some of the things that are possible there. I think that's kind of a watch the space. Do people buy it? Do companies double down on that? Or are they going to start to pull back if those items didn't land? But I talked to a couple of lighting manufacturers who said, I think Curry was a good example. They have a couple of pretty traditional looking chandeliers, but with kind of LED instead of a bulb. And they're like, well, we're going to watch and see. You know, does this resonate?

1:00:11Do people get it? Are they ready for this yet? The technology is ready. But I think that in that case, it's actually our customers ready. And I thought that was sort of an interesting progression forward on the tech side there. Yeah. I mean, I know people are still pretty passionate about the incandescent bulb. But we just have to tell them, as you were just saying, Caitlin, and the wonders of not having to change a light bulb. I can't remember the last time I changed a light bulb in my house. I've got LED bulbs just about everywhere. Well, I mean, and again, and I'm curious what else you saw in this area.

1:00:46I mean, I feel like you're not coming to high point to see innovation in action, right? You're going to some show in Vegas or you're going to some show elsewhere. Or you're going to like CES or something, right? You're going to get like, oh my gosh, this flies. This talks to you. this conversation with your washing machine. I don't know. Right. This isn't the home technology show. And so, I mean, I feel like I wasn't even inundated with a lot of high tech motion furniture or a lot of built in. I mean, so, but you tell me because you went around and saw a lot more product than I was able to. I don't think you see, again, you're not going to see, talk to your washing machine is the dumb example, but you're not seeing that kind of, But I do think you're seeing innovation in the way that we start to live with this technology that was rolled out at those kind of technological shows in years past.

1:01:40I think motion offerings are more prevalent at high-end brands than ever and are in some cases looking pretty chic. I got stumped for the first time. This market, people are always like, oh, you wouldn't know it's motion. And you're kind of like, well, yeah, I had a guess. I didn't guess for, you know, a sofa. I saw this market and it was, you know, that's pretty amazing. I think the explosion of rechargeable lighting everywhere. Absolutely. You know, this isn't the first market we've seen that. Sure. But I certainly think we are in the midst of seeing people change how they live with lighting.

1:02:16And that felt innovative and revelatory to me. You know, that was everywhere. And it's not just little table lamps that you carry around. It's not just like restaurant lighting, right? Like sconces that are rechargeable, floor lamps that are rechargeable. You know, I think that that category felt kind of omnipresent. I agree. I think that's one of the most exciting innovations that's going on. And as you say, it's no longer just a cute little table lamp or a little restaurant light. It's every. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's everywhere. And as far as motion furniture, we've talked about it before, but RH is leaning into motion furniture in a big way.

1:02:54and so we can't joke about it anymore because obviously it's - Or can we joke about it even more? You know what? A couple of markets ago, Baker launched Motion and I was like, in my head, that was the moment that I was like, oh, everyone's going to start doing Motion Furniture. If you're seeing it there in a stunning mohair velvet, this is something, and we're seeing it more and more and more. Maybe it's still tucked away in the corner of a lot of showrooms, but it's there. And it's looking pretty good. Caitlin, I wonder, in sort of wrapping up the conversation, I wonder if there were any big changes to showrooms or to companies that you visited where you felt as if perhaps new leadership has been making a meaningful impact on the look and feel of what you saw?

1:03:47Absolutely. I mean, I think for me, that was actually one of the top takeaways, this market. That was something I felt like I saw again and again and again. The best example of that might be the big tent that was installed on the Bank of Renn parking lot for Burton James. Made goods, purchased Burton James in April, I think right before High Point Market. They had two weeks to open the showroom for spring. They hadn't really put their hands on it yet. But they had an entire 7 ,000 or 8 ,000 square foot tent of refreshed introductions, new pieces. and I think they really planted a flag for how they are revitalizing that brand.

1:04:23Watch that space because that tent is going to turn into a 20 ,000 square foot showroom, all for the Burton James brand. So I think they have just, you know, what we've seen is just a small slice of what is to come. If you walk through Hooker, Caroline Hipple is there as the chief creative officer. Also since early April, I don't think we really saw her hand on the brand at Spring Market either, but you can start to see the way that kind of family of brands and they've got a lot of brands in a very giant showroom. They were talking about the fact that in part of the showroom, they're merchandising their brands together for the first time.

1:04:59And it was beautiful. It was full of color. It was really trend forward. And there was one stretch of the showroom that just to me felt like the most compelling representation of that brand that I've seen in a really long time. I think we're going to see more of that in future markets, and I'm really excited about that. I also think Brown Jordan was a great example. Ben Collins joined as the division president there. I think last August, they were showing their first outdoor furniture collection that was really kind of start to finish under his vision. I got to see a bunch of stuff that's coming up for the next year or two that they'll be rolling out.

1:05:33And I think that's going to be a brand to watch. They have so much in the works. It's truly exciting and extraordinary in the outdoor space. And I think that's, again, a really good example of a shift in leadership, really energizing, revitalizing a brand. I also just, I think I said this last time we were on this show, I love the new look at Hickory Chair. I shouted out Federico last time, but I think that showroom just continues to look more and more like it should and more and more like itself. When you go to market again and again and again and you visit some of these showrooms again and again and again, some of them don't change.

1:06:11And some of them do. And when they're changing in the right direction, I think that feels so good. And so seeing some of these sort of adjustments and kind of brands stepping into themselves in exciting ways, to me, that is one of the most exciting things that can happen at a market. It's really hard when people stop you on the street and you're like, what have you seen? I'm like, do you have 10 seconds or four hours? You know, I think it's a hard thing to quantify really quickly in a conversation on the street. But I think some of those, some of that brand movement, I'm going to, Fred, your word was good.

1:06:46Makes me hopeful, you know, about what we will continue to see at markets moving forward. Anything you want to add there, Fred? No. I mean, I'm glad that hope is resonating. Well, so then here's my question for you, Fred. Any interesting gossip, rumors, chit chat, anything you overheard that we might be talking about in the future? Sure. Well, the hottest gossip just dropped right before we hit record on this podcast, which is that there's a secret bowling league at the end of High Point. Apparently, Caitlin was invited into this cabal. Neither you or I were given a custom shirt and a spot at the lanes.

1:07:24But that's what I'm aiming for next market. In terms of gossip on the street, I mean, you know, again, High Point is just so fun for people in our line of work. You know, you're sitting there in the little cafeteria area at Showplace and you realize, oh, that's Niraj Hsiao, the CEO of Wayfair, who just sat down and he's chatting with this factory. So I was trying to eavesdrop unsuccessfully on what he's talking about. No scoops there. Gary Friedman, RH chairman and CEO, was seen sort of swooping into market briefly. That was obviously a fun rumor. Kelly Wurstler was there. The queen made an appearance.

1:07:55So, you know, you see all the celebrities. You see all your favorite designers. I don't know that I got any hot rumors that I would feel totally comfortable sharing just yet, but rest assured they'll be on the Thursday show in a matter of weeks. Yes, I saw Gary Friedman a couple different times at market. So he was obviously out making a lot of acquisitions as far as upcoming collections. And so that actually made me feel hopeful about where things are going, right? Came down from the luxury mountain to buy some outdoor furniture. Exactly. What about you, Caitlin? I think, interestingly, one thing I heard a lot of people talking about was sort of that showroom, some showroom musical chairs that's going to be happening.

1:08:36One of them, you know, Bernhardt is leaving its space at IHFC. I believe this was maybe their last market in the big building. They'll be taking the Klausner space that's out on the street. That changes the kind of geographical pull, certainly, in that neighborhood. They're right there across the street-ish from like Caracol and that Universal. Somebody super interesting also just purchased the old Mitchell Gold Bob Williams building on Grimes. And I think that will be an interesting move, refresh and expansion. Don't think I can quite say who that is yet, but I think it's going to be really interesting to see.

1:09:13I think there's a lot of adjustments. I also think there's a lot of brands sort of watching other brands move and thinking about making moves of their own. And you mentioned Mitchell Gold and nice to see Mitchell Gold back at High Point. And he actually had, I thought, some pretty impressive introductions on the floor. What was your sense? Did you sit on that coral down sofa? I was so into it. I think I saw, yeah, I saw Mitchell on Tuesday and it was funny. He was like, what do you think? And I was like, it's like hanging out with a bunch of old friends again. You know, it was kind of lovely to see the resurgence of a lot of my favorites from the Mitchell Gold line.

1:09:53And I think it's a really promising start for that brand. Do you agree? I thought his color choices were great. I thought his fabric choices were great. I thought it was fun to see some of the designs coming back. And you could tell his excitement and enthusiasm about being back. Absolutely. And that was really great to see. Anything else before we go, Fred, that you want to share? No, I'm just going to polish up my bowling skills. That's what I'm mainly working on for next week. Fred is so focused on the bowling league. Let me tell you, my score did not count. My team won. I'm going to shout that from the rooftop.

1:10:28My score absolutely did not count in pulling us across the finish line. Well, I'm sure that next year we can bring bowling shoes and apply to join the league, and hopefully we can all work on our skills between now and the springtime so that we can compete at a higher level. Anyway, I want to thank you both for joining me and for this great conversation. I really appreciate it. Caitlin, Fred, thank you. Thank you, Dennis. Thanks, Dennis.

1:11:01And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here. But before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Well, Dennis, I think you very accurately described High Point Market as like drinking from a fire hose. So there has been a lot that has caught my eye over the past week. My eyes are absolutely blasted with beautiful product, lots of great conversations, really interesting people. So I'm going to abstain and pass it on over to you for the end of the show here. Well, there was a lot to take in at High Point, to be sure.

1:11:27I really wanted to end the show by just thanking everyone who came out to see Fred. And I host a Thursday show in the Syria showroom with Mitchell Gold and panels that I did at Caracol and Chelsea House. And I just am so grateful to all of those companies for hosting us. I'm so grateful to all the many people who kindly came up to us and said how much they enjoy the show. and how much they get out of it. Truthfully, appearing live and being part of Market is one of my favorite things to get to do. And part of the reason that is, is because I get to see so many people and connect in person. So I'm just grateful to everyone who came by to say hello.

1:12:16It meant so much to all of us. So thank you. I second that emotion. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and I'll be back with you on Monday.