The Thursday Show: What happened at High Point? Plus: Why designers are experimenting with AI video

24:11So this was this was, you know, an A.D. open door tour, you know, the famous YouTube series. And it was Lily Allen, David Harbour. And it was in 2023. They did like a, you know, a tour of their brownstone. Not too far from where I used to live in Brooklyn, although I did not have that nice of a brownstone. I'll tell you that. And it was just even at the time, it kind of generated some buzz because, well, first of all, he described Billy Cotton. And I apologize, Billy, as the budget unconscious Billy Cotton, which I thought was a little bit of an unnecessary burn on David Harbour's part. But also there was a carpeted bathroom and there was a whole series of articles that came out of, oh, my God, our carpeted bathrooms back.

24:46We may have talked about this at the time, Dennis. I don't know if we we fed at the trough of that that click bait, but it like generated a lot of buzz at the time. And now with this crazy divorce story, it's all over the tabloids. That video has been viewed eight point five million times. It's kind of wild. It is. And again, we talk so often about A.D. and all the celebrity coverage. And you and I were talking just before the show about you can understand the allure of the drive and the viewership that celebrities create. And then imagine what feels like five minutes after we all watched this video and fell in love with parts of their of their home.

25:29I certainly will never forget the fabulous Zubair wallpaper that was all over the place and the plain English kitchen. Plain English kitchen. Right. Yes. And the and the moment where he described that Billy Cotton wanted that one little lamp to always be on in the kitchen. And they thought, what, what are you talking about? But then they fell in love with that. So, I mean, there were so many moments that people remember from this project. As you say, many people felt that the relationship was doomed when they saw the carpeted bathroom and talked about that quite a bit. But it also, because it was this huge celebrity project, it got so much attention at the time.

26:07And now here we are, an album drops that is talking about the breakup in great detail. And everyone's back to those videos and everyone's back to all that AD content. So it's all getting the rewards for AD viewership all over again. Yeah, if you look at their homepage just the other day, I saw that there was like Lily Allen and David Harbour sell their townhouse. You know what I mean? Like they know what they're doing. And I think that like there's another sort of side of this, too, that I kind of want to talk about, which is just that like I feel like celebrity divorces have always been a thing that people talk about in the tabloids.

26:45And occasionally the couple's home kind of gets into it a little bit. But I feel like now, especially post-COVID, when homes are just part of someone's identity and you show off your home and it's part of the celebrity publicity tour to do an open door, that it's just design is just kind of out there. And it's not just out there for regular media. It's out there in the tabloid media, too. I mean, the fact that Billy Cotton got the shout out on a Lily Allen song, I think, is a product of the fact that design is so much more part of pop culture than it used to be. I don't think you get this in 2008.

27:17You can criticize A.D. for all this celebrity coverage. And P.S., there was plenty of celebrity coverage when Paige Rents was the editor in chief. I mean, she did every home that Cher ever had. And she always said, if Cher gets another house, I'll put that one on the cover, too. So, I mean, it's always been part of the culture, but there weren't all the vehicles to expose the publication that way. The video content, the Instagram content, that all didn't exist. And they're powerful tools. They get lots of eyeballs. So it helps to make a lot of other things possible for the publication. So I get it.

27:53And honestly, I can't imagine that anyone at AD is regretting any of the steps that they've taken. Far from it. I hope someone's getting a raise. Yeah. The other part of this I kind of wanted to talk about is just the fact that like, I feel like more and more from designers, I hear that the client just doesn't want their home to be photographed. They'll pay. The budget is no problem. them. They'll give the designer free reign carte blanche, but they just don't want it to be photographed. Or maybe they just especially don't want it to be published in a magazine. I do feel like stories like this sort of make you appreciate like, you know, the potential for if something goes wrong, suddenly your home is out there and everyone can critique it.

28:32And I think in a world with increasingly less privacy, people want to hold on to more and more of their privacy. And I do wonder if, you know, any designers, clients are kind of giggling at this story right now and then thinking, yeah, I'm not going to sign off on that photo shoot. Like, I don't want any version of this to happen to me. What do you think? Is that a stretch? Well, I mean, I hate to think having had several conversations recently with designers who are being held back by NDAs where they're not going to be able to photograph the project. I hate to think that one of the possible outcomes in all of this is more clients wanting that very stringent NDA and saying, no, no photo shoots, please, because it's so important for designers to be able to show the work.

29:13I hope that it doesn't swing that way, but you can certainly understand to your point, Fred, why a lot of clients say, you see, this is why I don't want my project in AD. This is why I don't want it photographed because now everyone knows every nook and cranny of this house and refer to it all over social media. I mean, the references to this house in great detail. Everyone was like, what about the swans in the bathroom? What's going What happened to them? Where are they going? Who gets the swans? I think a big renovation is coming to that house in the not so distant future. But it's a fun story and hopefully it will it will stay in all the tabloids for for a while.

29:51Also a fun album. I was a little bit disappointed because at first I thought she was covering the Pet Shop Boys, West End Girls. And I was pretty excited about that. I thought, oh, she'd do a great cover of that. But then it turned out it was a completely different song altogether. Yeah, I mean, maybe the lesson in all of this for any potential clients that might be listening is not insist on an NDA, but rather do not do wrong by a very talented songwriter because you don't want to end up on the wrong side of Lily Allen's barbed pen. So I think treat your partners right and don't insist on an NDA.

30:24Just do the right thing in your marriage and everything will be OK. Exactly. That's good advice, Fred. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including a roundup of new shops and showrooms and advice from seven designers on parting ways with an employee. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.

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31:49And we're back. I'm not Dennis Scully. I'm the other guy who talks on this podcast, Fred Nikolaus. I sadly did not make it down to high point for fall market last weekend, but I'm here with two people who did, and hopefully they have a lot to say about it. Otherwise, we don't have a podcast. Let's start with Caitlin Peterson, Business of Homes Editor-in-Chief. Caitlin, thanks for being here. Hi, Fred. Happy to be here. Dennis Scully, it's been so long since we talked. We should really catch up. Yeah, we really do need to chat more often. What the heck? Glad to have you here. So let's start with a quick vibe check in a word or a couple of words.

32:25Caitlin, what was the vibe at High Point Market this fall? Well, it's not the word that I was expecting. I think we all went in. You know, I don't think anyone was expecting like runaway success at this market, just given the economic climate around us. And market was surprisingly optimistic. I think optimism would be my watchword for the whole weekend. And my working theory is that so many exhibitors who had talked to us in the weeks and months leading up to market with a lot of anxiety and panic and worry actually did all of the hard work by the time they put price tags on their product. and all that was left to do was come to market and show up and meet a bunch of attendees who were really excited to see their product, who were optimistic about the projects that they're working on, the shopping they're doing, the trends they were seeing.

33:18And I went in thinking we were going to have all these dark conversations about economic headwinds ahead of us. And instead, It was joyful. It was fun. It was hopeful. It was a great time. Awesome. An optimistic take. Wow. An optimistic high point. I love it. Dennis, don't bring us down. Well, I mean, I think what was interesting is I think people were ready to get beyond the tariff talk, to Caitlin's point. I think what I definitely took away and my word would be calculated. So I feel like lots of people had done the math ahead of time. Everybody knew what their response was going to be to the tariff issue.

34:02Let's get it out of the way. And then let's move on to to Caitlin's point. everybody wanting to see what the product was, get excited about some of the things that were trending at market. And we'll talk about that. But I think everybody had sharpened their pencils, put on their green visors, gotten the number, knew how much of a spread there was that they could offer people. But they were very measured about the product that they had put on the floor and they were very thoughtful and again calculated about how they were going to talk about this whole issue. So optimistic and calculated are the takes from the editors on the ground.

34:43Just to sort of get the numbers out of the way. So Caitlin, you kindly reached out to the High Point Market Authority and we got a little early access to the attendance. One percentage point off of spring market down 0.95%, which is a flat, which they were kind of enthusiastic about given the overall economic conditions. Large retailers were up about 7 percent, new buyers up 3 percent. Perhaps no surprise, given all the tariffs, they were down 10 percent from spring market in terms of international buyers. So kind of a flat market with some minor ups and downs. Caitlin, I'm wondering what you make of those numbers and also what it felt like to walk market.

35:20What's really funny is, you know, I was talking to the folks at the High Point Market Authority yesterday, right before I left town, and they were saying that that international buyer number, It was down 10%, which, you know, who can blame them? Nobody's surprised. But actually, it was down a lot more about a month ago. And in the last two to three weeks before market, they saw a huge rally in international buyers register to come to the show, which I think those numbers were really shifting in real time. This was a market where people registered to attend really late. But kind of in the last, I don't know, two, three weeks ago, I think a bunch of people looked at the news, looked at what their plans were for the next six months and thought, actually, maybe I should book a flight to High Point.

36:03I think in terms of what it felt like, you know, look, these numbers are pretty flat to spring. Spring didn't exactly feel packed either. And the sidewalks were never really full. This wasn't a market where you were pushing people out of the way in Innerhall to get to your next destination. But I will say that, you know, you get kind of anecdotal traffic figures from folks in showrooms. And a lot of them said, look, badge scans are down a little bit, or badge scans are pretty flat to spring. But anybody who was tracking kind of written business said that the business they were doing was up 10, 15, 20%.

36:37And I think people who were here to buy, like the people who showed up were there to buy. And maybe that's a good thing, right? You got maybe fewer people, but you got the right people. You got people who had come with a plan and with some money to spend. Dennis, what did you see? I completely agree. I think this was very much a less is more market. And you always have the people that want to tell you the minute you walk in the door that it feels slow and we all know who those people are and they want to bring you down right away as you cross their threshold. But I think that there were just as many people, if not more, that told you just what Caitlin was saying, that, you know, what's been surprising?

37:11We actually haven't been as busy traffic wise, but the amount of orders is up dramatically in some cases. I sort of wish that Wayfair had come out with their earnings numbers before market because I think those numbers were so strong and so uplifting to the stock and the market that it would have been great to have that shot in the arm. There definitely was the impression, though, because the Wayfair team had come earlier in the week. There definitely was the impression that a lot of the big retailers were back in a more meaningful way, and people were definitely talking about that. So there was a lot more talk about writing orders at this market, which is what market used to be very much about.

37:51And we've sort of backed away from that in recent markets. But you definitely heard a lot more people just feeling like we're actually selling stuff, even if we're selling it to fewer people. So that's a good thing. You know, you mentioned the wafer buyers. They rolled in and out of town, most of them, before any of the rest of us even touched down in North Carolina. And I do think that that trend of really expanding the number of days that people are walking this show also continues to contribute to the sense that nobody's here. You know, if a significant number of those large retailers want to get a jump on all their competitors so they touch down on Tuesday and they leave by Saturday when the show officially opens, you don't see them in the streets.

38:32But they definitely left a meaningful impact in their wake. Same thing with a lot of designers who know that if you want to get your tag and get dibs on the best antiques, you can't show up on Friday. You had to be here two or three days ago. Sorry, Bunny Williams got there before you because she flew into town days early and cleaned the place out. And I had so many designers say to me, oh, my God, the antiques, there's nothing left. There's nothing left. I was like, yeah, sorry. Bunny and her team got here early. You missed it. Right. But those people registered for the show. Those people participated meaningfully in market.

39:05But the average person walking the streets on Saturday or Sunday isn't going to see them. And I think you can feel that absence, but they're still making a pretty meaningful impact. Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the T word. I don't want to make this whole show about tariffs, and I suspect it won't be, but we should check in. We're six or seven months into the tariff era. Is it still a hot topic? Do people still want to talk about it? Are they kind of over tariffs? What was the tariff chatter at market? I don't know if, Dennis, you had the same experience. But every time someone saw the Business of Home team coming, they started talking about, oh, Business of Home wants to talk about tariffs.

39:41I will tell you that usually about two or three minutes into that conversation, you know, that executive would kind of say to you, but by the way, you're the first person who's asked me about tariffs. And I'd be like, one, I didn't ask. You brought it up. But two, you know, their customers weren't asking about tariffs at all. I think people were looking at the tags and saying, OK, the price is the price. And they were there to do business. And there was a lot of conversations with us about the fact that tariffs weren't a meaningful conversation with buyers at market. And it didn't matter to them necessarily how a manufacturer had gotten to that new price.

40:16They just wanted to know that there was a new price that it was going to hold and that they could present it to their client. Dennis, I know you had a lot of conversations with sort of the big manufacturers behind the scenes. I would imagine that for them, even if their customers weren't dying to talk about tariffs, they probably had to contend with them over the past few months to come up with prices. I wonder what conversations were like with them about tariffs, if it was as calm as that behind the scenes. What do you think? Well, I mean, first of all, to piggyback on what Caitlin was just saying.

40:45So I moderated two different panels during High Point and I made it clear to the audience before each of them got started that there would be no tariff conversation in either of these panel discussions. And the crowd was delighted. So I think people are people are happy to move on from tariffs. But to your point, the CEOs, they can't move on from tariffs. And so everybody, again, wanted to tell me both how much they were paying in tariffs and some staggering numbers. Staggering. Hearing from CEOs. Can we get a taste of what staggering is? Someone casually told me they were like, oh, we got a$300 ,000 bill last week.

41:19And it's not like once a quarter. It's once a week. I think Dennis got some bigger numbers. Many people had been down to the Wayfair gathering and people had been sharing, hey, how much are you paying in tariffs? How much are you paying? And the numbers were staggering. I mean, one of the furniture brands that I spoke to was spending more than$50 million on tariffs. Annually, I mean? So that, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, that's a pretty staggering number. But everybody had, I paid a million, I had a few million. I mean, there were some pretty staggering numbers when it came to tariffs. And everybody, again, getting back to the calculated message, everybody was strategizing around, is this a line item that I'm just telling people right out of the gate?

42:02That acrylic table, you know what? It's got a tariff on it. Here it is. It's$175. And we're just going to call it out. But everybody was exhausted from it, to be honest. I mean, because the teams had really had to spend a lot of time getting things ready and factoring in what those numbers would be. I talked to a CEO a couple weeks ago who was saying that in this lead up to market, you look at how many times your merchandising team has repriced your line. And there's a real loss, too, of productivity in other areas of your business, which I think is something that executives are really having to weigh.

42:41This idea that, you know, all of this energy and effort has been focused on trying to figure out how to price for all of these tariffs. And in, you know, an alternate universe where this hadn't happened, all of those people would have been really focused on moving your company forward. Well, and I think also taking away people's desire to make acquisitions and the creative teams have been stymied because everyone's had to focus so much on this. So I think, Caitlin, I completely agree. I think there's going to be an impact from this period of time, both in terms of how companies have grown or decided not to grow during this time and also from the creative side.

43:21I'm going to limit myself to two more tariff questions and then we'll move on. But I'm curious. It's obviously dangerous to try and predict. But did you guys get the sense that companies had all made like their big price increase right before market and that, you know, prices are going to be relatively stable, at least until the next, you know, tariff comes out? Or did you get the sense that these were prices that they locked in and there's another hike coming in the not too distant future? Dennis, what do you think? Again, I think they had made the decision about how they're going to talk about it, but I think everybody was leaving themselves flexibility for whatever was coming next because I think nobody felt certain that we have real clarity as to where this ends.

44:00So I think everybody was trying to come up with the language and the structure to say, here's what we know right now. Here's how we're going to be handling it and communicating it to you. But ultimately, prices in three months, who can say? What about domestic manufacturers? You know, they're the supposed beneficiaries of all of this. I've gone hunting for people who are happy about the tariff regime. And I kind of get the sense in the margins that there are some domestic manufacturers who are, you know, more and more excited about the possibilities here. Caitlin, did you talk to anyone who, you know, was seeing a positive impact from tariffs on their domestic business?

44:36What was your take on that? I mean, I think domestic manufacturers were definitely in higher spirits than those who are not domestic manufacturers. There's no question about that. A lot of them were, whether seriously or sort of joking, talking about the disappearance of grade A through D fabrics. And just this idea that all of a sudden, your entry price point was actually a grade F. You know, I think, you know, a lot of them looked at their fabric assortments and were like, well, whoops, you know, and everything kind of moved up a little bit in price point. And I think that was really the biggest challenge that they're grappling with.

45:10I don't know that any of them have seen a meaningful influx in new deals, new business, new partners quite yet. I think it still sounds like, you know, and Fred, you've reported this before. It's a lot of talk. It's a lot of conversations. It's a lot of curious retailers. I think they may, especially after this market, start to see that new business appear with new product. But for, I think, a lot of them, it sounds like it's really the retailers are finding it really complicated to reassure the lines that they have already. And so we're going to see maybe more work for those domestic manufacturers as the Crate barrels or whoever it is of the world start to roll out new stuff.

45:51So I visited Valdez Weavers, for example, Fred, and Valdez Weavers, to their enormous credit, had come up with a linen that they can get within 50 cents of what it is coming out of China and they can get it domestic. And you know what? It was beautiful. And when he shared that information with some of the big retailers, they were all over it. Yes. Great. We'll have that. So, yes, there are some companies that are able to move. You sent me to visit the owner of Gat Creek, and I spent some time with Gat Caperton and talked about his business, $25 million American furniture company. He definitely sees real opportunity coming from this, but he was very realistic that most people aren't going to be saying, all right, I'm going to shift everything over to America tomorrow, and we're going to be a$50 million company next year.

46:44He says we're going to be a$50 million company, but probably not for another few years, even with all of this sort of tariff tailwind behind him. But he is having a lot more conversations, and I think a lot of companies that have that American offering are having more conversations. The same thing at Chadwick. They had a lot of flags and there are a lot of indications that it's coming out of America. But nobody told me of a giant customer that wasn't doing business with them before that suddenly showed up and said, all my business is coming to you. Next market. I'm sure that's what's going to happen.

47:23Exactly. Watch this space. So let's move on from the T word into other hot topics at market. I'm curious, High Point's hottest nightclub, 313 Space. What was it made its debut, I guess, a couple of years ago. It's the buzzy new building. What did it look like this market? Caitlin, what do you think? I will say that High Point's hottest nightclub is probably the club in the new Bernhardt showroom, but they threw another rager on Saturday night. But no, 313 Space looked great. I think word has gotten out that it's where all the cool kids are. You know, this is its third market showing there. And what started as, you know, a lot of artisans, but a little bit of empty space, you know, it's had sort of this airy vibe.

48:05It's gotten a lot more condensed as more people want in. And there was a really interesting mix of kind of big brands and sort of anchor tenant mixed in with all of those smaller, more independent vendors. Designers definitely took note, right? You walk through that building and you're not just talking to an artist anymore. You're also talking to some pretty serious brands with major showroom presence across the country. And I think there was sort of an acknowledgement that you need that mix probably to keep that building financially viable. But it also, it changed the vibe. The vibe was still great.

48:38And there was some really cool stuff in there. Unique Kitchens and Baths built out several of its kitchens in there with Jess Weeth. And it was beautiful. There were just some really incredible displays. You know, our friends at Pookie were there with a fun display. And I always love seeing Soilda Studio was there with their latest line of block printed textiles. So it was a really interesting mix, all sitting kind of on top of a pretty tremendous showing from Shuang downstairs. Dennis, did you make it to the Cool Kids Club at 313 Space? Were you there with your sunglasses and your backwards hat?

49:12I did. I had the cigarette just kind of dangling from my lips. And it was great. No, it was a great energy. Everybody was eager to get over there. Many people hadn't been there yet. And we're sort of talking about, oh, I've got to get over there. I think, again, the hospitality nature of that space is part of what makes it so welcoming and inviting. There's a wonderful wine bar. They've got the restaurant going. They've got they're welcoming you in lots of different levels. There's there's cool stuff in there to be seen. And I think it definitely remains the big talk of High Point. Don't you think, Caitlin?

49:47I do. And I think, you know, in a, I don't know how much more room they have to fit new vendors in, but I definitely got pulled aside by a lot of vendors in other sort of multi-vendor spaces like Innerhall or Suites at Market Square with people who said, you know, should I be there? There's a lot. Yeah, watch that space. But there's a lot of brands looking at what's happening over there, looking at the energy around that building and saying, I want in. I want to be in a mix of brands that people are talking about like that. All right. So more musical chairs might be happening in the near future.

50:23Speaking of new things and things that didn't happen this year, two things that sort of caught my eye are the NKVA has a permanent home in High Point for the first time ever. And also Shop Object appears to have at least temporarily ended its experiment of having a space at High Point. So one new thing and one thing that went away. Caitlin, did you check out the NKBA? What did you think of it? I did. It was really interesting and smart. I think, you know, the NKBA came in. They brought a bunch of partner brands with them. And they took over the entire first floor of Broad Hall. They put a big tent out in what used to be the front for a ton of great programming.

51:00and they were jam patched for all of those sessions. And then you walked into this really interesting space that really mixed all of the vendors in a pretty clever and artful way. So you would see a Cosentino surface with some lighting in front of it. There was a kitchen in there and this really cool jade green that had Fabiwood cabinets and Blanco organization items and Blue Star appliances and Cosentino surfaces, Lutron automated shades over a vanity program. It was a really interesting way to meld all of these different brands, but also really plant a flag for the kitchen and bath category in High Point Market.

51:37And I think the reception shows just how much of an appetite there is for these products, for this kind of programming, for that information. when we talked to Bill Darcy, the head of NKBA earlier this year about the move, you know, he talked about the fact that maybe KBiz isn't, which is the NKBA's flagship show, isn't a go-to destination for all of the more residential focused designers at High Point Market. And they just wanted to sort of introduce them to the KBiz world. And I think, you know, if this market was any indication, there's such an appetite for that. It just seemed like a tremendous success to me.

52:14Can you imagine that pulling designers who otherwise wouldn't be going to High Point to come? Because one of the conversations that I had a lot at High Point was, what else can we do to get people here? This is two markets where attendance has felt soft in a row. And there were a lot of conversations about what else do we need? And it can't just be the 313 space because there's not enough room in there for everyone to move in and turn that into the main attraction. So I'm wondering if you think this NKBA space could be a stimulation that brings people, a draw that brings people that wouldn't otherwise come.

52:54The short answer is yes, absolutely. The long answer is I think it's really easy to forget sometimes how many designers are really siloed in their area of expertise. I did an interview with Jean Stouffer a few weeks ago, and I know you've talked to her about this before, Dennis, where she said that for so many decades of her business, she was really specifically focused on kitchens, but then would work with often another interior designer to bring in maybe the lighting or the paint colors or the bar stools at the counter. And then when she started working with her daughter, Grace, to add in that sort of furnishing element, it really transformed her business.

53:32For a designer like that, who can maybe get some of that kitchen and bath experience at High Point, but now has access to an entire world of furnishings and soft goods and can start to make those connections, that's a huge leg up for your business. And I think conversely, designers who are intimidated by sort of the technical side, maybe, of the kitchen and bath world can start to get a taste of how they can use that to transform their business. One of the talks in the NKBA space was literally about driving profitability by taking on kitchen and bathroom renovations. And I think that to me really encapsulates a lot of the opportunity as these two worlds that have really always kind of showed separately start to inch closer and closer together.

54:20I'm surprised the answer isn't more appearances by the Jimmy Buffett band at High Point Market. That seemed to be a clear draw for people who are on the fence. I bet, honestly, I bet they were great. I'm sorry. I'm sad to miss that as much as anything. Well, in the fray the next night. Oh, okay. Millennial nostalgia. Okay, exactly. Well, we kind of brushed over this, but Shop Object chose not to show or not to have a venue at High Point this year. I can speak from some experience. It was a little bit hard to get to the last time I was there. I thought it was cool that they were there, but it was a little bit hard to find.

54:51And some of the vendors were a little underwhelmed with the traffic that they got. I'm curious if you guys have any other intel beyond why ShopObject was not at market this fall? I think that Market Square has really struggled to find its footing for the last almost decade. That used to be the mainstay for all those Heritage Home Group brands. And when they pulled out, they were the huge draw. That was the anchor tenant. And I'm not sure that there's anyone with that big enough gravitational pull to really lure the design community en masse to that building these days. You know, I don't know why, what was really driving the decision not to have shop object return, but I would imagine that it was just that it was so darn hard to get to no matter how much wayfinding you did.

55:35You need that secret staircase in the antique center to like really get there easily. And every time I show that to people, their minds are kind of blown. So I don't think that's super well known, but you know, like it It was hard to get to. You didn't get the foot traffic. And honestly, I do think that 313 Space opened up with this neat vendor mix and kind of did it better. Yeah. You know, I think that really was the final nail in the coffin for the shop object experiment at market. It's never a good look if you have to like open a secret bookcase to get through a cavern that leads you to leads you to your trade show.

56:08But maybe they'll come up with a new mix and come back. I want to quickly pivot and talk about, you know, it's not a new story that High Point has come to be, you know, dominated by the designer audience. And, you know, just this week there was news of a couple of like local retail shops going out of business. And it seems like that, you know, the death of the furniture store, the rise of designers is something we seem to always talk about. I'm wondering, were there any new twists to that story this week? Any new insight that you guys gleaned on that front? Dennis, what do you think? I felt like I had a lot more conversations with people who could get real with me and stop putting such a positive spin on those numbers.

56:42The death of retailers is not good for anyone in the furniture business. Let's just get that up front. OK, so I think everybody has been for these past several markets, especially been trying to say, oh, this is such great news and isn't it wonderful? And I get it. It's great that we're embracing designers and we're letting them come. And there are all sorts of incredible things that designers can do with companies and partnerships and trade programs and all of that. It's great. But you know what? The furniture industry needs retailers, great big retailers. So there was a lot more conversation about what are we going to do about that?

57:19Because it is it is a problem. What do you think, Caitlin? Well, I think even just the registration numbers really illustrate who's coming and who's not. It was all the big players in that large retailer category. There were a lot of designers and there weren't that many people in the middle. They just weren't there. And if they were there, they weren't buying the way that they used to. Yeah, there's kind of a weird hollowing out. And Dennis, you asked the question and I'm not sure. Certainly no one on this call has the answer. And I'm not sure anyone at Highpoint has the answer. So we're going to find out what fills the middle of the market.

57:54Maybe it's Quince. Maybe they'll be the ones to really develop it. But I mean, all of the things that we talked about earlier, the crowds on the street, the parking lots being full, the restaurants in the hotels. I mean, all of these things where you used to have to get there early to get a spot. You don't have to do any of that anymore because those giant retailers just aren't there in that meaningful way. And it's impossible to think that that is not a long-term challenge for this market. parking lot vitality is my favorite unofficial market indicator. One parking attendant told me that his lot, the business was down 14 % versus spring market in this lot.

58:38And you didn't have to get there by 9am to get a spot. Some days, some of those prime lots never put that lot full sign out. They were taking your$20 all day long. All right, let's talk about furniture. We put it off long enough. I'm curious, just on a top line level, you know, one of the sort of stories we keep coming back to is it feels like there hasn't really been a high point in a while where there was a lot of new product, a lot of new debuts. Was this finally that long-awaited market where everybody came out with a ton of new stuff? Caitlin? There was a lot to see this market in a way that was really encouraging and pretty exciting.

59:10I don't know that there was a sort of slam dunk collection that was on everybody's lips, but I think as you made your way from manufacturer to manufacturer, it was fairly consistent. We saw a lot of that return to traditional design is taking hold of the marketplace. And I think interestingly, a lot of the more heritage brands at market were dipping back into their archive and resurrecting pieces that had been a hit in the 70s or the 80s or the 90s. You saw a lot of people talking about sort of this return to their bestsellers that maybe we haven't seen in a couple decades. And I will say that the first time someone said that to me and the second time someone said that to me, I very cynically was like, well, that's a really good way to save on product development.

59:59But I actually, the more that we saw that was really nodding to that heritage, the more I started to really appreciate that that is actually really meeting the moment. You know, I talked to Vern Yip had a very menswear-inspired collection at Trend for Fabricut. And he was talking about the fact that a lot of his clients want something that feels safe, that feels familiar, that feels secure. They want it to feel fresh, but there is this yearning to return to something familiar. And I think we saw that in just so many traditional details, like carved wood, walnut is making a comeback you know it was just this it was warm it was familiar and it was really elevated elegant and chic yeah i mean i think the the number of skirted seats that i saw at high point skyrocketed right i mean i i think and and and i'm happy to report fred that the amount of i know i know what's coming yes right dramatic downturn right caitlin i mean i mean yeah and we're talking like tapestry inspired weaves bullion fringe yes stripes scallops ruffles contrasts welts there was piping not all of it well-placed piping and i and my fyi to people is you know uh just uh if you're going to put that piping on there get someone with a steady hand uh because there was definitely some some drunk piping going on in some of these uh some of these I'm going to hear who's on blast after we stop hitting record here.

1:01:33But I did think, to Caitlin's point, I mean, I think there was, and we got a sense of this at last market, but there was even more of it. The leaning into traditional, leaning into some of the archival pieces. The other thing that so many places had, there were a lot of game tables. Everyone's playing Mahjong and furniture makers have risen to the occasion. Yes. I think Chaddick was having somebody who was going to be teaching you to play. That Mahjong room was so great. I thought that was brilliant. And, you know, interestingly, Hickory Chair had announced that they were doing this collab with Liberty of London.

1:02:09And honestly, it completely fit in with the vibe of market. And this was a big step because those are some bold patterns on furniture. But it very much felt at home. And it sounds like some of it's going to be making its way to the floors of Scully and Scully. So, I mean, I guess it worked. So, I mean, there definitely was. And Caitlin, I don't know. Some people said that this was in response to all of the anxiety that everyone's feeling. Right. whether it's around tariffs, whether it's just around uncertainty in general and the vibe from the warmth. I don't want to say maximalism because it wasn't that.

1:02:52It was, no. Right? It was just cozy and warm. I mean, what do you think? I think it was very nostalgia-fueled, too. I think one of my favorite surprises was actually rounding the corner in Vanguard, and they had this super 70s-inspired moment with all this low-slung furniture, big mirrored accent tables with big cylindrical legs. It was really sexy and fun and comfortable, but interesting and elevated. And I think there were a lot of moments like that. This was a colorful market. This was a saturated, pattern-happy, joyful market, just in terms of the way that the showrooms were merchandised. I talked to the president of Taylor King, And she said that she actually really gave her merchandising team free reign to kind of push the limits of what might feel safe for the Taylor King brand.

1:03:46And, you know, she said, you know, you know when you're taking a risk, you know when you're sort of riding that edge of, you know, will my customer tolerate this, accept this. And she said that everyone who came through the door had such a sense of gratitude for the inspiration, for the joy, for the energy that that merchandising had brought. I think that was out in full force. Comfortable style for an uncomfortable world. I'm curious. I like that. I'm curious, you know, let's just do a quick, you know, around the world. Any other highlights in terms of product? You guys have mentioned a lot of stuff that you really liked.

1:04:19I'm just curious if anything has slipped through the radar thus far on the podcast that you want to give a shout out to. Caitlin, what do you think? What really jumped out for you? Well, we would be remiss not to mention the very large debut of the Margaritaville collection at Hooker. You know, it's been it's it's something they've been talking about. It's something that's been in development for a really long time. And, you know, they're really tapping into an exceedingly strong, robust business in kind of the Margaritaville empire. I am not a parrot head. This is not my. Is that right? Newsflash.

1:04:54Newsflash. But Dennis is. Yes, exactly. So I was a little bit less familiar with the kind of the visual vocabulary that might be on display here. Right. And I was a little bit worried about walking into like an island fever dream. And there were definitely kitschy moments in this collection. There's a pair of tables that kind of nest together that are in the shape of flip flops, kind of like scream vacation. But it was a really well-done collection. They divided it into four different zones. One was very, like, island-ocean vacation. But there was another that was really elevated coastal. There was a kind of khaki and olive desert oasis space.

1:05:39And then there was a really neutral, urban-inspired section of the showroom that was really about how Jimmy Buffett himself lived in his own homes. And I definitely walked in thinking, oh, no. And then we walked in and it was it was a really lovely surprise. Dennis, did you make a trip to Margaritaville? Anything else you saw? Well, you know, and listen, and that's a big that's a big important launch for them. So I hope it was well received. What was interesting, too, was to see a lot of introductions that I that I felt just were executed well and made a lot of sense. Amanda Lindroth did a collection for Chelsea House, and it was completely on brand, I thought, and made total sense.

1:06:24And I thought that some of the other introductions at market really just made sense and seemed very on brand. What did you think, Caitlin? Yeah. I mean, I think actually Margaritaville and that Amanda Lindroth collection are the perfect, never thought I would put those together, but it's the perfect, it's the perfect, that moment where you're like, oh, of course, or like, why hasn't this always existed? Or this makes so much sense for the marketplace. And I do think you're right. I think Courtney Bishop had that great rug line at Amati Carpets. Leanne Ford had a rug line with Lalloy. There were just a lot of partnerships that came out that were smart, that were interesting, and that I think really met the moment in terms of what designers are looking for.

1:07:04We're getting to the end here, but I just want to quickly do a quick round the horn and hear about any sort of memorable moments. Now's the Time for gossip. Now is the time for salacious details. I heard that the electricity went out at the proximity. Did that actually happen? Yes, it did. What a High Point legend there. For listeners who don't know, this is the hotel that all the bigwigs go to during High Point. And the power went out. And I'm sure that was quite the scene. Is anyone on hand to report live from the powerless proxy? I would say that our own Jeff Barish, who is on our sales team, had moved in.

1:07:41That's on Sunday morning. He had left his bags there. Hadn't even checked in yet when he got a text message that said, no power. Where were you? Yeah, I was at dinner with him on the Sunday night. We hosted a really lovely dinner with Bolin Branch and a bunch of designers. And everyone at the table was sort of frantically like, is it on yet? Is it on yet? Is it on yet? And there was sort of this like this smattering of like excitement and then kind of like almost like a full room cheer as everyone started to get the text message that the power was back on. I wonder what future stylistic trends will be able to tie back to the night the proxy lost power.

1:08:17Dennis, were there any kind of notable moments for you? Fun run ins, parties, gossip, what will stick in your mind? Well, I definitely got the sense that we're going to be talking about some M &A action post market. Sounds like someone met with the stumps. Well, I mean, you definitely got the feeling that, again, while everyone tried to put a good spin on market, some people needed market to be better than it was. And you definitely got that sense. I had conversations with people that suggested that people will be reassessing where they are after this market. And I think, again, whether Tim Stump, there's a direct line to Tim and Bo when they just call right away, I definitely think we're going to be hearing.

1:09:03And I don't mean to make light of it because I think some people really have to have to make some long term decisions here. But as I say, to to sort of softer than people would have liked markets back to back, leave some companies just thinking that they really need to to reassess. And I think also I think a lot of people were thinking to the conversation about no longer having shop object or no longer having some of these at least destinations where there was a different kind of product. Might the NKBA be the answer to bringing more new people here? Are there more things that we need to do to bring other people to market?

1:09:42There's still the elusive, very high end designer is still not coming to market in a meaningful way. And I had a lot of conversations with people about whether there needs to be even greater hospitality on offer or there need to be more unique designs and introductions for people. A lot of people wishing that some of their really top clients were coming to market in a more meaningful way and what might bring them here. Not to add to the sort of dour outlook, but I also think that the people who came to market this time have jobs right now. They're busy. They were sourcing for those projects. But a lot of those designers were starting to whisper about the fact that their pipeline of new work is pretty quiet.

1:10:27And so that's also going to be something, you know, maybe this market and last market were softer than expected. But all of those designers who don't have new work coming in right now, that's the order they don't place six months from now at next spring's market. And so I'm not sure I'm not sure that the outlook for, you know, the third market, you know, to say this is the one this will solve all our problems. I don't think it's smart to hang your hat on, you know, April as the thing to pull you out of trouble if you're sort of wary about the future. I'm going to say those two answers were very calculated.

1:11:01Now let's get an optimistic answer to end the show. Can we get it? Can we get a little bit of sunshine before we head out? Dennis? Well, I mean, again, a lot of people, I don't want to overstate, a lot of people were in very high spirits and it is always a pleasure. Good market or bad, it is always a pleasure to spend time at High Point. Absolutely. And I got to reconnect with a lot of great people and catch up. So for me, it was an absolute pleasure. I would agree. And I think designers come to High Point to shop, but you also hope that they come to be inspired. And I think there are a handful of showrooms who really leaned into the inspirational side of their brand at this market.

1:11:47And it was wildly successful. It brought a sense of abundance and joy that maybe has been missing from the general atmosphere for the last couple markets. And one, I hope they double down and do it again in the spring. But I hope that more of their friends join them in really taking risks and showcasing just what all is possible with their product. Well, I hope this podcast conversation brought abundance and joy to all our listeners. I've certainly enjoyed it abundantly. Dennis, thanks for being here. Hope to have you back again sometime. A pleasure. I hope to come back on the show. Yeah. Caitlin, thanks for being here.

1:12:25Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

1:12:30And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye? A couple things caught my eye. We were talking about Wayfair's earnings earlier on the show. I cannot wait for First Dib's earnings because that stock has also been on a tear. It's up some crazy amount over the past month. I know it's still$3,$3.50 or something, which is far off its highs, but there's clearly something happening that's making investors excited about First Dib. So I cannot wait to find out what it is.

1:13:00and I'm sure we'll talk about it on the show. The other thing is a little wonky and kind of nerdy, but, you know, hear me out. You know, there's been some speculation, you know, the Supreme Court is going to weigh in on whether a lot of the tariffs are actually legal or not pretty soon. And most people are kind of vetting that they're going to say that they are legal and that it's going to be as you were. But there's some speculation that, you know, the Supreme Court is going to rule against the tariffs and companies are going to sue and get their tariff money back from the federal government.

1:13:27Now, it seems like a little bit of a long shot, But it's enough of a possibility that there's actually this financial maneuver on Wall Street where some people are buying future tariff refunds at like 20 cents on the dollar. People are basically betting. They're like basically buying the tariff refund of like Walmart, for example, for for a small fee. So it's just funny to see the kind of gamesmanship and, you know, how how these crazy policies play out on a high finance level and to see people. There are some people betting betting that the tariffs are illegal. I'm not sure I would join them, but it was kind of a funny little story.

1:14:00Yeah, that's going to be a fun one to watch, and we'll have to see. And to your point about First Dibs, those shares have moved so dramatically. It's going to be terribly disappointing if there isn't something exciting going on. They've discovered quantum computing. They've made a major breakthrough of quantum computing at First Dibs. I hope so. What got you out of this week, Dennis? Well, first of all, what caught my eye was right before the show, Well, we got the news that Bobby Bonet has been named the new president of Sandow Design Group. Congratulations, Bobby. Bobby was very involved on the podcast side and the marketing side over there at Sandow.

1:14:38And now he's got a podcast. Podcast guy. Yeah, he's got some podcasts and he's got that surround studio that they do over there. Worked with Jeremiah Brent on his podcast. But now he's really going to have his hands full. He's going to be overseeing the sales and marketing of interior design and Lux and Metropolis and Design Milk. They've got a lot of things going on over there at Sandow. So a great big job for him. And congratulations, Bobby. Eager to catch up with him about this new role. I wish him the best. The other thing that caught my eye, Fred, that I wanted to talk about was one of my favorite high point moments.

1:15:17Didn't get to talk about it earlier in the recap show. but there was a party that was being thrown. My friends at the experts sent me a note saying, oh, be sure to come Friday night for this party that we're doing at PRB. Truthfully, I wasn't that familiar with what PRB was, but I was like, oh, sorry, I can't come. But what it turns out PRB is is this fabulous vintage space that is in the beloved 313 building at High Point. Cool Kids Club. Exactly, where all the cool kids are hanging out. And so I get to the PRB space finally. I get over there. I'm like, oh, sorry. I'm so sorry that I missed the event.

1:15:52I understand it was this cool event at this guy's house. And he said, oh, well, hi. You know, I'm Michael. I'm the owner. And it was actually at my house. And I'd love to drive you over to my house right now. And I said, OK, sure. So we get in his car. We drive into his house. He just bought Thayer Coggin's old house. Those of you that don't know Thayer Coggin, the incredible furniture designer and maker. And it's this amazing looking house, which he has outfitted with this incredible array of vintage furniture that PRB sells. I think they have like over a thousand vintage light fixtures and just an incredible array of vintage furniture.

1:16:31And seeing it in this house was just sort of breathtaking. And I was thrilled to spend time. He was incredibly generous, never having met me before. Turns out he's a fan of the show, which was nice and drove me over to the house, saw the whole thing. And now I'm going to forever be talking to people about PRB. Yeah, PRB is a very cool and kind of under the radar, very impressive company. But my main concern is that it seems really easy to kidnap you. I think I've got a great chandelier. I listen to the podcast. That is all it took. And Michael, I'm not going to share with people the state of your car.

1:17:09I'm not going to, but I got into his vehicle with his wife and daughter in tow and a designer who wanted to come along as well. This is sounding safe. Is it sounding safer now? Yes. It was a great experience. And Michael, thank you so much for sharing all of that with me. You're going to be hearing a lot about PRB and you're going to be seeing this house and his incredible collection because I'm sure that many publications are going to want to share it. I'm sure for many it was the highlight of their time in High Point. And it is a reminder of just another cool space that's there in the 313 building.

1:17:46So be sure to look for that and be sure to follow PRB. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda I'm Dennis Scully Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday