The Thursday Show: What happens next at Holly Hunt? Plus: Susan Clark of Radnor on design centers, trade shows, and collectible furniture

24:45I feel like ICFF is just a perfect example of the subjective nature of reality. Because if you walk the show, and you talk to people who are showing their energy is really good. They're like, oh, that's awesome. I had so many good conversations. and then you talk to people who are kind of thinking of the you know icf of 2012 and they're like it's really small like you know and it's like the exact same show and it it really is interesting i mean i have to say i i always enjoy it i like i always discover something that i haven't seen before i saw that you know this you know the classic french uh cafe chair the tolex chair apparently it's like a ongoing concern they're revitalizing the brand i'd never heard of this that was really interesting to me lots of cool little makers in julia's section of course I do think that like and moving on to the subject of moving into fall in 2027 I after walking the show I'm 100 % confident that is the right thing for them to do because they need to restart the narrative there's just there's just too much energy of it's not like it used to be they need to restart things move to the fall and most of the people that I spoke to were positive about the change what about you what were the conversations you had about the move to the fall Yeah, I agree.

25:51And I feel like I have so much history at ICFF, so I always just am so happy to be there that I have sort of a distorted view of the whole thing because you bump into so many people you've known for years and everyone's happy to see you. But I think to your point, overall, everybody was happy about the move because I think they love the thought of another big show going on at the same time. It'll make it all feel in their minds like it's part of one big show. So I bumped into Alex Bernhardt, who had an interesting perspective, a little bit different from other people, in that he often uses ICFF as his dress rehearsal for the big Neocon show in Chicago.

26:29And he'll miss the opportunity to have that. And now he feels like he'll have to simultaneously show at ICFF and BDNY and run back and forth. and I think he's up for it because he has the opportunity to sell to all those markets. Good for him. But he was the only one who sort of suggested that it was going to be a little bit of a shift for his team. I think overall, people are thrilled to have just a bigger audience coming to both shows. Yeah, and it's interesting because I feel like the reason for moving it was, oh, the spring calendar is crowded, which I think is true. And certainly design editors who are schlepping all over the place will welcome this change, will welcome the break.

27:07But for most people I talked to, it was all about, yeah, I can't wait to be next to BDNY because I want to do a big hotel project. And like that, that was really, truly the watchword is like, hopefully they come over here and, you know, buy 10 ,000 of my lamps. So, you know, I think, you know, the energy from people there was largely positive. It was largely about being adjacent to BDNY. And the idea of what if it was even at the same time as one of the sort of collectible design shows, like a salon, you know, what if it was really that was a big mega event? And they certainly would not be in Javits.

27:36But, you know, creating like a one super powerful New York big design trade show weekend was certainly appealing to a lot of people. Now, to flip it over to NYC by design and design week and not staying in the spring, I think we're on a little bit opposite sides of this debate because I feel like you feel inevitably it's just all going to move to the fall or there's going to be strong movement in that direction. After talking to people, I'm not so sure. There was a lot of commitment to staying in the spring. I guess we'll see in 2027, but there was more people kind of dug in on that than I thought there would be.

28:06I completely agree. And I'll tell you, honestly, Fred, my opinion on the whole thing was changing every hour. The more people that I spoke to, I was like, oh, wow, you're right. I do see your point. I mean, bumping into Minya Quirk, who is behind Afternoon Light as I walked into the show, she made it emphatically clear to me that she will not be moving to November. And she gave me the reasons why, and I get it. And so I think come heck or high water, she is going to be there in May of next year and we'll see. And listen, NYC by design, I think some things are going to change there. Whether or not they really move to November, we'll see.

28:44I think that people need to get their arms around some things and that was clear. And so we'll see. A lot can happen between now and November of next year. But ICFF and BDNY seems like a good thing. And let's see what happens in May of next year. But I'm sort of with you. My opinions, which were once firm, are much softer now, Fred, on the whole thing. Yeah, it may be the win-win-win that you once hoped for. We may get it. Yes, exactly. The win-win-win and everyone comes in May and enjoys themselves at some new thing. And I look forward to discovering what that is. Perhaps it will be Art Deco, which is the next thing we're going to talk about.

29:25And really, will Art Deco overtake the world? Let's find out when we discuss a story by BOH's Jen Fernandez. This week she wrote about why Art Deco may be taking the place of mid-century modern as the next big aesthetic to take over the interior design industry. And Jen did a lot of deep digging. She looked at Pinterest trend reports. She looked at first dibs data. She spoke to trend forecasters. She spoke to Corey Damon Jenkins. She really touched all the different parts of the design industry to come back with the inescapable conclusion that Art Deco is here to stay. But I guess implicit in the conversation is this idea of, you know, is mid-century modern's moment over?

30:04Has it already been over? it's been such a long time where that was kind of the default basic aesthetic, especially at a retail level. I'm curious what you think. Where are we on the MCM curve, Dennis? Well, I thought it was a really great piece by Jan. And I think to your point, there were so many different areas that she explored. And sometimes I wonder, is it design journalists that want Mid-Century Modern to be over? Or is it designers? Sometimes I can't tell, but I do feel like there are signs of cracks in the armor. And I do feel like perhaps this is an opportunity where there really will be a change.

30:42And she pointed to so many signs within the article, whether it was Athena Calderon's Tribeca apartment, or as you mentioned, Corey Damon Jenkins' sort of jazz age-inspired lighting collection with Eichholz. I think there were a lot of a lot of signs that you could could point to i'm just not sure that art deco is is easy to everyone to get on board with yeah that's the kind of convenient thing about mid-century modern right it's like we all love to point out oh it came around during the madman era and people had sort of been exploring it and of course gary friedman's classic point that trends come from you know people dying and going into estate sales and it was perfectly timed to to rise but i think part of the reason why it's been such a long-running style is because it's easy it's easier well i don't know if it's easy that's a little oversimplification but it's it's comparatively simpler for manufacturers to produce it's a little easier to design around than a lot of you know faceted glass and curved sofas and jewel tones you know it's it's a little bit of a more plug and play aesthetic and now i'm going to get a lot of emails from people like mid-century modern i apologize but um i like mid-century modern for what it's worth but yeah it may be a little a little trickier and it's hard for me to imagine every living room in america looking like some jazz age fantasia.

31:54But I do think the signs are undeniable. I think it's out there. You see it almost everywhere you look. I agree. You do see it a lot more than you ever did. And the question is, and a lot of designers bring this up, can you warm up Art Deco? Can you make a warm and cozy space, a place where kids and dogs can run free? And that's where I think people sort of scratch their heads a little bit. I think it's terribly chic. And I've always loved Art Deco because, of course, I tend to overdress, Fred, as you know. So a room that's overdressed is perfect for me. But I think some people worry, oh, really, can it feel as cozy and warm?

32:31Yeah, well, I mean, that's the challenge for people who can actually design, not us, to figure out. But I do sincerely think that, and Jen talked to a lot of people in the piece, and this is really just a long advertisement, you should read the piece. But she talked to people about how it's a little bit of a sort of softer take, kind of more of a Chrysler building art deco than an Empire State building art deco, sort of more curvy, softer, maybe a little simpler, not quite as intricate. it more than anything i actually do think mid-century modern is again this is an iconic style and will always be meaningful and people will always care about mid-century modern but i do think it's a little past to speak my favorite indicator is actually if you look at listings on on facebook marketplace there was a period where literally any piece of furniture was mcm whatever it was whether it was 1985 it was like mcm bed or whatever and i feel like now you do see all different i spent a lot of time on facebook marketplace you see a lot of people type in brutalist, even though it's not brutalist, or art deco, even though it's not art deco.

33:29So it's the language that people use to sort of signify just design-y has moved away from mid-century modern. So I think we're, whatever it is, I think we're headed out of that era for sure. Interesting. Okay, well, we'll have to keep an eye out. And as you say, this is one big long ad to read Jen's piece, and you should. And I'm sorry I didn't put up a poll before we went on air to hear what a bunch of designers are thinking about this. I hope that they will write to us and let us know, because I do think we're going to be talking about this a lot, because again, the shift is clearly on. We'll see.

34:02All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com, including June's Can't Miss Design events and a Q &A with the founders of Afternoon Light. But first, a quick break.

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35:35And we're back. I'm joined now by Susan Clark, who is the founder of Radnor. Susan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Excited to be here. Thrilled to have you and eager to walk people through everything that you've done. Let's tell that story really quickly so we can explain to people what Radnor is and this sort of remarkable business that you've built over the years. Radner, wow, to tell the story. I've been in New York about 20 years. So born and raised in Nashville, Tennessee. Radner is actually named after a nature preserve, which is the first place that my father ever took me hiking in Nashville.

36:13So really the earliness of my childhood, going to the Tennessee craft fair and traveling across country with him, sort of looking at different methodologies of craft and art throughout across the country was kind of the impetus to what sparked my curiosity. So flash forward through years of working as a professional glassblower, blacksmithing, traditional weaving, sort of in a mountain school in Appalachia. And then finally moving to New York about 20 years ago and bringing my first design collections here, my glassware. Went to school a little bit at Parsons for my graduate degree in architecture and lighting design.

36:55and then very quickly learned that what I really wanted to do was kind of create a space and an environment where I could continue to make work architecture as much as I love it the all encompassing long distance of it I think made me miss the immediate gratification of product do you love it do you love architecture I don't know people who are no longer doing architecture love to say oh no no I love it oh no no I'm so glad that I studied it for all those years oh sure. No, I'm not doing it now. Oh, no, no, no. And I'm much happier now. But also, I mean, architecture, sure. Great. I mean, it's so prestigious.

37:34It's intimidating to say that I couldn't look at another Kohler faucet or I would kill myself. But yeah, I mean, it was interesting. I definitely around the time that I was working in the office, I realized how hard it is and how difficult it was for our clients now to get away to even look at product or, you know, which really is why I built the model the way I did with the residential spaces and all of that to help them kind of explain to their clients how to live with the work. And let's talk about that, building this model with the residential spaces and where that whole notion came from. And let's get into some of the practicalities of that.

38:15But first, tell us what you mean and what you've built out. Really for Radnor, I think when I first started the programming, I focused on Radnor Made. So I always knew I wanted to have a portion of our in-house product and then a portion of it being Radnor represented, where we support artists and designers who are creating their own work by their own hand. The more avant-garde experimental pieces is really where I found working in the trade that our private clients had a hard time understanding, like, what is the livability of that work? So pretty much from the beginning, I was seeking out spaces that were livable experiences, which is why our very first gallery was the David Chipperfield brand.

38:59So we did a petite apartment. And that way it was able to kind of also explain to me what I was missing in our product collections as I was developing them and what scales and sizes were really needed for the home. So when your client is shopping with you, and I assume the majority of your clients are interior designers, architects. Yeah, like 90%. 90%. That would totally make sense to me and what I would assume. So when people are coming to you and you're sharing with them the array of artisans that work with you, how do you present it to them? What do you explain to them as far as what can be done, what these products are and all of that?

39:38Yeah, it's very much like welcoming them into our home. Teaching is the key phrase that comes up. I think about it as a tour into the worlds of each of the artisans and designers that we work with and explaining to them how the work is made, the techniques that are used. So we really want our interior designers and architects to walk away understanding the ethos of our artisans and then understanding the methodologies of how everything's working so that they can fully customize or express that design within the home that they're trying to create. And as far as the spaces, so you mentioned the very first apartment space that you developed and you've grown in multiple spaces now and some far more sizable than you've had in the past.

40:27How's that going for you? Yeah, well, it's a pretty big year. We just launched our, we officially now have 11 ,000 square feet in New York spread between Manhattan and Brooklyn. So we have taken over the 92nd floor at the very, very top of the Brooklyn Tower. And that is done by shop architects. And then we also have the 70th floor in the Upper East Side and Thomas Joel Hansen's Sutton Tower. And when people are walking through, so a designer comes to see the space, are they often with a client in tow or are they coming to sort of scout it out themselves ahead of time and understand a bit better how it all works?

41:08Tell me what happens in real time. Wonderful question. Yeah, it's both methodologies. So oftentimes we'll bring the firm in. They'll come through and do a preliminary tour. They're interested in trying to find a specific set of pieces. then once they've gotten to know us and the trade team or my sales trade team is kind of doing presentations at offices to teach them about the work and then also bringing them in for a happy hour where we try to bring the whole staff through in order to sit and kind of live in the work a little bit. And then we also do the tours during the day and then they eventually bring their client back.

41:44So when they're on the hunt for a particular piece, then they bring their private clients. And they can either, you know, really we do private tours. So it's like you're confirming your own appointment. The space is kind of yours for that hour. Our team can either take you through as a tour, or if you want to kind of bring your work, lay it out, and even have your meeting there, it's something that we kind of want them to live within and utilize so that you can envision it a little bit better when you're, you know, pitching to your private client. And the educational component, which you've referred to, what do you find people need educating about?

42:19What do they need to understand better? Oftentimes, it's really about the technique of manufacturing, right? And then I think there's two reasons why I think that's important. One is in order for the interior designer architect to understand how to extrapolate that work. There are parameters that are naturally within certain methodologies of making. So if you're, you know, I love this aesthetic, how far can we take it before you've been pitching it to your private client? It's our team's job to kind of let you know, these are the parameters within which you can kind of push the limits of certain products.

42:53And the other reason that's so important to me is to understand what it takes to make those work, right? And a lot of the work that we represent, like Master Tokunaga, he's a Toshio Tokunaga, he's He's a master of woodworking based in the Northern Hyogo Prefecture of Japan. He's created work that's in the national... It's a national treasure of Japan. It's only brought out every 16 years. And he doesn't use sandpaper. He uses the methodology of kana, which is a series of custom planers that he stands, basically hand planes the wood down into its final finish. And I think when you understand how that technique works and you see the hand-woven washi on top of the body of wood, then you start to understand, okay, this is why it costs the level that it costs.

43:43But really understanding this more higher level of collectible work that we're showing, which is a key phrase. I know. Look at you going right to collectible. I mean, I just, I know it gets you excited. because all joking aside, I think you feel, as I do, that sometimes it's a word that's bandied about and not everything that's made in a small quantity is necessarily collectible. It's coined. It's been deemed. Yes. But I mean, it does seem to mean a lot of things. And truthfully, unfortunately, I think some people hear collectible and they think, oh, no, no, no, I want something livable or I want something real or right and i don't think they want it to be collectible so there's that issue right as well but i don't think i think when you and i we've talked about this before but when we talked about collectability you know especially for me i'm thinking about materiality the source of that material you know we've produced x many tables in stone there's only so many available and in the history of what is collectible at the auction of christie's it's the same thing where there's only so many Jean Royer beds, there's only so many Wharton sofas.

44:58It's that kind of limitation but in the natural nature of that material. So we only have so many of this tree. This tree is 350 years old. This artwork, this weaving, there's only one one-of-a-kind. And the techniques are so complicated that it's not something that can be reproduced or it's the natural dive as opposed to it's so rarefied and expensive it should be collectible. You know, it's very different. Well, I mean, what I'm also so curious about and the apartment model itself. So, so many people who have showrooms in, let's say, the D &D building, for example, right? They think about, oh, should I do this apartment model?

45:40Should I do this thing? You once sort of had this landscape all to yourself. Yeah. Right? And now - Remember when. Yes. And now lots of people have moved into this because they found, much like you did, that actually having someone into your home makes it feel much warmer, more personal, and you can really show them an entire apartment or a home outfitted with all of this. But to many, it seems scary to be off the beaten path, right? Yes. And in these spaces where people have to go out of their way to come, what have you found? it was really kind of comforting. I think a lot of people found, we found our clients would come back repeatedly.

46:24I think that was something where they felt welcomed into a space as opposed, as opposed to being kind of walking into a retail store and feeling the pressure of the dynamic between the salesperson and the shopper or the trade, right? The client. Um, I think that that allowed a lot of room for people to feel a little bit more relaxed in the space. It also, I think a lot of clients, and we talk about it too, felt the physiological calmness of it. I think it allowed us to create a world, which, oh my gosh, look at Apparatus. They create an entire world so that you can understand their vision and brand and style and materiality, and you just want to pull a piece of that into your own home.

47:09But it is, it's difficult. You've got to do the work, especially when it comes to your business being predominantly trade to bring them in and find a different way. I think for us, we've changed locations. So it's been really nice. Every few years, we shift into a new apartment, which allows us to kind of understand new parameters. And then that generates curiosity from our clients. They want to see the new space and understand how that building is and then therefore bring their clients in. But it's an interesting landscape because now that there's so many out there. It's, you know, what is the next?

47:45Like, how is it going to be? And there's still a lot to accredit to people who have the spaces in the D &D. And for you to have a bare space that allows an interior designer to not be, you know, basically given only one perspective of how to use your work, you know, or a client, it's like they can see it in different sort of methodologies and aptitudes when it's on its own. So I don't know if now in this modern era, if one is better or not. I think there are two different ways and maybe some appeals to more clients more than the other. It's interesting because of course you can control that. And it's so interesting.

48:20And we talk about the D &D building and I don't mean to pick on the D &D building or do I? But I mean, so here's this building where right there, it's half occupied, let's say. But so many of the people that are still there and maybe it's Stockholm syndrome or something, but they will tell you, look, dude, the reason I'm still here is because I have this guaranteed flow of traffic, right? I know that X number of designers, and sure, it's not as many as it used to be 10 years ago, but it's still gonna be a certain amount of people are gonna show up. And when you're over on Sutton Place or right, or you're in Brooklyn Tower, you're wondering, are they gonna come today and see us?

48:56And are they gonna, I mean, are these appointments really showing up? I mean, that's the thing. It's a trade-off. It's true, it's true. The New York Design Center, there's another one where you have like a preset group of people who are going to come by. It's a guarantee. And it's true. I think even I remember back to being in my interiors and architecture days, and I remember the D &D just being so overwhelming. It was like, and maybe that's part of it. It's so many options. It's like, it's almost too much sometimes, or it's your kid in a candy shop. It just depends on your style, right? Or which methodology works better for you and your client.

49:31But I think no matter what, because even in the D &D, if you are not changing up your showroom and your space enough for the client, it's still going to be difficult to get them in. So it's the same conundrum almost. It just depends on which one feels fresher at the time. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think they probably have the same conundrum trying to get their clients in. Although, yes, you have a better foot traffic chance to a certain extent. I don't know. It's hard to say. I feel like because I haven't been in one of those yet. So it's hard for me to fully compare. But yeah, I'm I'm curious your perspective.

50:07So, so much of what New York Design Week is is about is is a lot of artists and crafts people showing their their work, whether it's lighting or their furniture stuff, or they've, they're coming out with with all sorts of things. And I wonder what the feeling is among that community about sort of where we are in this moment in time. Is it harder for people to break through today? Is it harder for them to get discovered and get seen? I felt like a lot of what I was seeing around New York were people that were really hoping somebody like you would come along and say, hey, love your work. I'd love to sign you up and bring you into my next glamorous apartment up in the sky.

50:55And I wonder if they're if they're feeling like there's as much possibility for that. And would New York Design Week be the kind of show where you would find somebody? That's such a good question, because it really is, though, because the Internet has completely explored. our sense of territory. You know what I mean? Like in the sense of even our trade shows necessary, you know, and are our galleries necessary? Like, do we need to have this footprint here? Could our footprint be anywhere? You know, do you just need to see the physical work at some point? I think our interior designers and architects would argue, yes, our clients need to sit on things.

51:32You know, we need to see it in person. But really, once they know the work, once a client knows the work, do they really need to come back and see it over and over? I don't think so. A young designer can have such a strong voice without having to be in New York in particular, right? But if you feel as though you're not being sought out through the internet, or if you are not a digital person, right? Which I think just because you're an insane maker doesn't always mean you're good at marketing yourself. It's difficult. I think, yes, being able to go to a trade show is a wonderful opportunity for people to see your work in person.

52:11I would argue even more so it's a wonderful opportunity for you to get direct sales. I think especially being at a show like ICFF will offer you an opportunity to kind of be in a wholesale relationship or get direct sales from clients. And honestly, it's not cheap either. So if you're just starting out and you're trying to do this trade show, it's a massive investment for just three to four days. And similar to the D &D, you're going to get a lot of foot traffic, and you're hoping that it's the right foot traffic. But for galleries like me, it's almost the more you're exposed, the more difficult it is for us to kind of have the exclusivity of you, right?

52:52And I think that when our designers are in so many multiple galleries, our clients lose the preciousness of those pieces. And it's funny, I had another interior designer the other day that was talking to me about the beauty of that feeling of discovery and how kind of rare that is now in these days. And so I don't know. It's a great question. I think if you did a mix of being able to present your work, I think the most important thing that you can probably do is to make sure that your holistic identity online is probably the most important thing you could focus on, right? That understanding your world, like this is my aesthetic, this is my body of work.

53:44For any designer out there, it's like the more you can be fully in your own voice visually and represent that, then you'll eventually make enough money to be able to go do the trade show. And then, you know, you can pursue your path. Or to your point, maybe by the time that comes, you know, if you feel like, no, I don't need to be at some trade show. I've got Suzanne Lovell is lining up to specify me, you know, right? And all the time. So what do I need that stinking trade show for? But I mean, it's just so interesting to me because even more than usual, we're having these big conversations about it because of the announcement of ICFF moving to November and everyone wondering what will that mean for New York Design Week and what will this all look like in May?

54:28And many have said quite clearly that they'll still be doing whatever it is they're doing now in May next year and look for that. And Afternoon Light, this show that showed a lot of makers, absolutely emphatically says, right, yeah. They said, we'll be here in May and we're not moving and I totally get it. And so I'm curious, maybe May becomes a time where even more things blossom and they don't need this big tentpole event of ICFF. And ICFF can go and be with BDNY and that can bring a whole other group of people together, right? Which will also be interesting. And those hospitality specifiers can go to both shows, I hope, right?

55:11And maybe all sorts of people get discovered and seen. I wonder, does it do anything to affect the tide of what you experienced? So this week, for example, were you inundated with out of town designers? Yes, absolutely. That's the thing is even, you know, if you're having a launch or an activation or everyone's been following you and they want to come see the work in person, like this is the chance for them to come by. I mean, part of me has a little bit of anxiety that we're going to do May and November now. Oh, that's what I'm thinking. That's exactly. And I'm like, no. I think you're going to be opening up apartments.

55:51People are going to think you're in the real estate business. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no escape. Yeah. No, I mean, it's only beneficial. It does make me excited though. This year in particular for New York was, wow, it was big. It felt like New York was back. So many events and the scale and it was exciting to see so many young people and up-and-coming designers coming into the scene and then seeing the houses that have been established over the years kind of doing their programming but i mean back to back just so many events um and it really what i like about this sort of renegade independent studio is that it feels like milan it feels like copenhagen it feels like you're exploring the city of new york is open to design as opposed to just this one javits center i mean as cool as the Javits Center is, right?

56:42I mean, the windowless lower layer of the Javits Center. I mean, don't tell me that's not the coolest space in New York City. Wait, there's more? There's more to see than that? It's a site in and of itself, you know? Yeah. No, no, no. No question. Listen, I feel, I mean, to your point earlier, apparatus without ICFF, who knows, right? I mean... That's an interesting question. We all, everyone, everyone did a show there. Radner never has done a trade show. You never broke down and did a trade show. I never did. I think after working them for so many years, I couldn't do it. Yeah. I don't know. I get that.

57:22I get that. And, you know, and I think we had a guest on recently who was making the distinction between design shows and trade shows, right, and all of that. And I get that as well. I mean, part of me wonders, and again, this is going back to thinking about what these artists need to have happen. I wonder, like at afternoon light, it seemed like they were so excited that so many people from the press came and so many, right, and so many cool people just kind of came around and maybe saw them and interacted with them. And even if they didn't necessarily write a book full of orders, maybe they got right.

57:57Maybe they got on so many people's radar. Right. And they also said to me, many of them said to me, you know who came through a lot was product designers and sort of interesting people that maybe you collaborate with in some other way or maybe you form a relationship with. So I sort of feel like it's all good exposure. I just want to make sure that everyone gets paid at the end of the day. Like, you know what I mean? Like you were saying, like, that's so nice. That's a thing. Like, I just want people to like make money and make a living from it. And, you know, you got to pay for a booth and you got to pay to promote it and all of that.

58:33And I just I just want people to to make money. And so I like shows where you feel like people are actually, hey, great, I'll take 12 of those or let me. Yeah. I mean, I think above all, it's the conversation of community, too. Like we're all isolated in our own studios, creating, creating, creating. And then here's this wonderful moment where you're finally experiencing other people, experiencing your work, especially if you're a small studio artist or designer. It's like you're finally in the conversation and learning feedback on your own work and being exposed to other people's work. And I think that's really important.

59:06Well, and speaking of which, so you are also a maker yourself and very, very much like still having your hand in all of that. So tell us what you're up to there. So I just recently launched a collection under my own name for Design Within Reach. We launched the Pena Dining Table and the Contra Upholstery System. Both are doing so well, and it's been such a great relationship. So we're continuing to work together, and I'm designing more collections for them. So you'll see more coming out in the near future. Yeah, it's actually such a wonderful break for me. It's like pulling my head out of the gallery and being able to go back into purely the conversation of design and development and really designing for another brand in a way that's been a really nice challenge and experience.

1:00:00And they're such a great brand to work with. It's like, you know, basically I was able to go visit the Herman Miller Innovation Lab and kind of meet the innovators of the Aaron on chair and talk through all the different methodologies and systems there, which was really so exciting for someone coming out of a fabrication background. And it's just really lovely. Well, there's so much design history under the umbrella of that whole company now with Noel and Herman Miller and all of it. And so I love their archives and I hope that they take good care of Holly Hunt and some of the other brands that they are stewarding through this process right now.

1:00:43I'm wondering, wait for it, about Art Deco, Susan. Are you ready to tell me that you're seeing signs of mid-century modern finally giving way? Which I would think would upset Miller Knoll tremendously. So I don't want to harp on that too much. But they seem pretty invested in that space and that time period. But I wonder, I mean, is Art Deco, does it have - It's coming. Is it? You know it's coming. Yeah, look at all this marketing material in our industry. So where are you seeing it? Where are you seeing it show up in a meaningful way that makes you think it's coming? Or do you want it to come?

1:01:24Is that really what's going on? I want it. I want it. Okay. Okay. No, no, I think we're seeing it. I mean, I think we're also seeing the growth. Basically, deco is something that we've seen very prevalent in Mexico City, which is becoming a burgeoning design sort of mecca for our community. And you're seeing it all over Roma, just on the buildings alone, the history of the spaces. And I think that's trickling into a lot of the branding that we're seeing, a lot of the color relationships, some of the marketing. whenever we're using these invitations, we're starting to see some of the fonts, you know, which are so satisfying.

1:02:02And I think some of that metal, like the chrome and, you know, this era of the brass with the walnut is like, you know, everybody's ready for the like nickel and satin and aluminum, you know. So I think we're looking at this kind of push towards a different kind of materiality and texture and feel. And I think there's something about deco and kind of the scale and the relationship of those things. That's exciting for all of us. And can we make Deco warm and cozy and golden retriever-like and that we can curl up with? I mean, golden retriever might be a little bit of a stretch to this, but I needed to be so comfortable that the golden retriever I wish I had could be right there next to me.

1:02:49I have no golden retriever, sadly, but I just always want to be ready in case one shows up. Susan, it's, it's impossible to fully describe the pleasure of having you on the show today. Um, and I, and I really, I encourage people to come and, and visit your, uh, your apartments in the sky because it's, uh, come for the furniture, stay for the views. There's, there's so much to offer and, and she'll make you a cappuccino. So, I mean, it's all, uh, it's all good. Um, but really thank you. A pleasure. It is a pleasure. Thank you, Dennis. Thank you so much.

1:03:49didn't Havenly try and buy Nordic Nodster? Why hasn't Havenly bought a rug brand? Because, you know, that's Havenly's MO. They buy, they acquire. And lo and behold, they're launching a rug brand called Weft. I think it makes all the sense in the world. And I'm really interested to see how it does. You know, we've had Lee on the podcast several times. I'm sure we'll have her on again for her next acquisition. So maybe she can talk about this. But clearly, rugs remain hot. Art Deco rugs, I think, is where it's at for next year. Oh, did you see that one, Dennis? I did, and I can't wait to see what she does in that space.

1:04:22And I think, exactly, everyone is tripping over themselves, as we've talked about many times, to get into rugs. Exactly. All right, what caught you out of this week, Dennis? A couple things caught my eye. We were talking earlier about ICFF, and one of the really fun products that was on display was from a company called British American Camping. And it was a tent, but a tent up on stilts, so to speak, with a little bit of a climb up. And I have this fantasy of camping out in the backyard, but I could never convince the lovely Mrs. Scully because she didn't want the tent on the ground with all the wild animals running around.

1:04:57And this is the perfect solution. And I think that this was a brilliant display on their part. I hope lots of people got to see that. And I just may have to place an order for this one, Fred, because that's where we need to be. The wild animals of Bronxville. The dangerous animals of Bronxville. Yeah, I thought that was cool. So it doesn't, you know, for all people who complain about ICFF, you still discover interesting and weird and fun things. And that giant British tent was certainly one of them. I very much agree. The other thing that caught my eye this morning, just before we came on air, I was downtown in Ken Falk's creative shop down in Tribeca.

1:05:32He's got a new product introduction with perennials, rugs, fabric. There was a bunch of upholstery on teak furniture that looked amazing. A really fun new collection that I gather won't be out for a little while. This was kind of a sneak peek for the press, but it is a very fun collection. And I have to say, between the recent collab that I saw with Michael Smith and Sanderson, which was also outdoor and really fun, I'm reminded of why you do these great designer collabs. Both of these product lines, I think, just took the product in a direction that they might not have gone in on their own. And I think this new introduction with Ken Folk is highly marketable.

1:06:18I think we'll do really well. And I think people are going to be enjoying it a great deal. Ken Folk doesn't miss. I think it's going to be a good one. Yeah, to be sure. He's a star, that Ken Folk. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings, or take a workshop, visit us online at businessofhome.com. If you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome.com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaos and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully.

1:06:51We're taking a quick break for the Memorial Day holiday, so we'll be back with you next Thursday.